There is a skill gap, yes. But more importantly: there is a knowledge gap!

DagenHawk · July 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't know, someone arguing people like me should be banned for having more DPS than them while farming the same boss as them qualifies to me.

I don't think that asking for balance changes should be labeled as toxic casual behavior, because quite frankly the ceiling does need to be lowered. The people doing endgame content is always a low population to begin with but ESO manages to not even have the population of other games. And you see complaints all the time about the game being dead in Craglorn. I also see people who can raid being unable to because they can't find enough people to fill their group. That's a problem that can only be fixed by making the ceiling lower. So that more people can join.

But, to say it doesn't exist at all? Toxicity can come from everywhere.

Sure they can but there is no evidence that they are casuals for the most part are low key...I don't see them in anyone's face but end game vets are making videos and screaming get out on the forums...but hey Mr Snuffleupagus, turned out to be real too.

Riptide · July 2022

Overland is designed to be the introduction.

Sigh, I know the majority of players seem to think this way but it is a real shame. 75% of the content is overland, and it makes up 95% of the solo content. All the dungeons, trials, and cyro etc only add up to maybe, maybe 25% of the total content and that is being generous, and 2/3 requires a group.

So 75% of the game being used as an introduction, with 95% of that requiring no blocking, no interrupting, no roll dodging, no pots, no food, no set pieces etc - it does almost nothing to prepare people. Particularly with companions to lean on.

The actual preparation for harder content isn’t anything like prohibitive,, takes about a week of practice and prep - and then overland, most of which is still there waiting to adventure through, is made trivial in the extreme.

And so folks who take the plunge have hundreds of hours of voiced adventures made trivial, or never make it out of the “introduction”.

It is why many of us have been asking for at least an optional veteran overland mode for many years. To serve as an actual training ground for difficult content, to make the vast majority of voiced content remain completely relevant for everyone, and to ease this needless “hardcore” and “casual” internecine tension in the community.

But it just never gets done or even seriously considered. It is inexplicable.

Firstmep · July 2022

I think the knowledge gap is real and more important than fast hands, especially these days.
Having a good build in pve or pvp can have a much bigger impact on your success than twitch reflexes.

Troodon80 · July 2022

Riptide wrote: »

Overland is designed to be the introduction.

It is why many of us have been asking for at least an optional veteran overland mode for many years. To serve as an actual training ground for difficult content, to make the vast majority of voiced content remain completely relevant for everyone, and to ease this needless “hardcore” and “casual” internecine tension in the community.

We've seen plenty of examples of "hard" content being included in overland. You've forgotten Craglorn, perhaps? Possibly the least adventured zone in the game (Skyreach and Spell Scar grinding don't count). Or the world boss in Southern Elsweyr, Ri'Atahrashi's Training Ground, that a lot of people said was "unfair," "too difficult," or "impossible with random people." Every instance where ZOS has attempted to add in some level of difficulty has been met with severe push-back.

Base game needs to be accessible to everyone, but specifically for those leaving the tutorial since everything in the overland (and game in general) is scaled to 160 CP. Unlike other games -- and unlike ESO pre-One Tamriel -- where zones have different level recommendations, post-One Tamriel has no such requirement. Personally, I think this was a bad move as it removes some level of progression, but this is the direction they wanted and this is the game we have. I think a "toggle" or a "veteran instance" would be a bad move for two reasons:

People with experience will leave the "normal" overland, making accessibility to lower level players more difficult (it's already hard enough to find people to help with world bosses even when you offer to share)
People will attempt to enter the "veteran" overland before they are ready, either because of some new promised reward or simply through lack of self-assessment, and then blame the game for being too difficult

But this is going into off-topic territory. So that's all I'll say on that.

Riptide · July 2022

—edit, just not worth my time

AzuraFan · July 2022

thorwyn wrote: »

In my post, I mainly wanted to address the general stereotype: improving = work -> work = no fun -> improving = no fun. I am sick and tired of that logic for two reasons:

You're absolutely right. I should have said it feels like a job TO ME. Which is why I have no interest in doing it, but I know other players do.

What I don't like is the elitism of some who choose to spend their time squeezing out as much DPS as they can, and the assumption of many of those players that we all want to be like them. That if we'd just pull up our socks and put in the work, we'd be the "right" type of player, too.

But this is a "play as you want" game. There is no right type of player. Players who want to do trials and vet stuff can do what they have to do in order to be useful to their group. Players who don't want to do vet content have no reason to eek out every ounce of DPS, and we're not lazy or idiots or whatever for not being interested in doing so.

I can understand why people get angry at those who don't want to up their DPS but then join trial and vet groups. That's definitely not cool. But I don't do that. I do improve, but I only work on improving what I need to improve to do the content I'm interested in, mainly overland and some normal dungeons.

Players aren't failures or lazy or casuals or whatever if they can't do 120k DPS. We're playing the game how we want to play it. Unfortunately for ZOS, it has created a situation where a whole range of players with different priorities occupy the same spaces, and now they're stuck trying to balance it all to make the game fun for everyone. Not an easy task.

SilverBride · July 2022

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

You said:

SilverBride wrote: »

it is a lot of work. Work that I am not willing to do

Which i took as "You cant improve to the point you want to be." Because otherwise, wy comlpain about it being to much work if you dont want to do it anyway ?

I was originally giving an explanation as to why many players see preparing for end game content as a job. For us it is a lot of work and can feel more like a job than a relaxing game.

Others may disagree and try to show that it doesn't take a lot of time and effort but that is subjective. For them it's easy, for us it's work.

DagenHawk · July 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

You said:

SilverBride wrote: »

it is a lot of work. Work that I am not willing to do

Which i took as "You cant improve to the point you want to be." Because otherwise, wy comlpain about it being to much work if you dont want to do it anyway ?

I was originally giving an explanation as to why many players see preparing for end game content as a job. For us it is a lot of work and can feel more like a job than a relaxing game.

Others may disagree and try to show that it doesn't take a lot of time and effort but that is subjective. For them it's easy, for us it's work.

You know... I never felt like it was a Job I just always felt like chasing the meta never quite fit in ESO, (It's Skyrim with friends with a bolted on PVP and Raid game..) but I always supported the pursuit...despite being called a "Toxic Casual" given death threats, and followed into other games (Yet casuals are the real problem ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ) My hope is to (maybe with the devs help ) get the meta chasers to stop screeching Toxic causal and telling us to leave the game just because we don't Raid...it's not really asking that much.

Firstmep · July 2022

DagenHawk wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

You said:

SilverBride wrote: »

it is a lot of work. Work that I am not willing to do

Which i took as "You cant improve to the point you want to be." Because otherwise, wy comlpain about it being to much work if you dont want to do it anyway ?

I was originally giving an explanation as to why many players see preparing for end game content as a job. For us it is a lot of work and can feel more like a job than a relaxing game.

Others may disagree and try to show that it doesn't take a lot of time and effort but that is subjective. For them it's easy, for us it's work.

You know... I never felt like it was a Job I just always felt like chasing the meta never quite fit in ESO, (It's Skyrim with friends with a bolted on PVP and Raid game..) but I always supported the pursuit...despite being called a "Toxic Casual" given death threats, and followed into other games (Yet casuals are the real problem ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ) My hope is to (maybe with the devs help ) get the meta chasers to stop screeching Toxic causal and telling us to leave the game just because we don't Raid...it's not really asking that much.

I dont know what kind of people you had to deal with, but this kind behaviour doesnt apply to most of the community, veterans or casuals.

W0lf_z13 · July 2022

DagenHawk wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

You said:

SilverBride wrote: »

it is a lot of work. Work that I am not willing to do

Which i took as "You cant improve to the point you want to be." Because otherwise, wy comlpain about it being to much work if you dont want to do it anyway ?

I was originally giving an explanation as to why many players see preparing for end game content as a job. For us it is a lot of work and can feel more like a job than a relaxing game.

Others may disagree and try to show that it doesn't take a lot of time and effort but that is subjective. For them it's easy, for us it's work.

You know... I never felt like it was a Job I just always felt like chasing the meta never quite fit in ESO, (It's Skyrim with friends with a bolted on PVP and Raid game..) but I always supported the pursuit...despite being called a "Toxic Casual" given death threats, and followed into other games (Yet casuals are the real problem ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ) My hope is to (maybe with the devs help ) get the meta chasers to stop screeching Toxic causal and telling us to leave the game just because we don't Raid...it's not really asking that much.

def sorry you went through that... that is completely unacceptable behavior and I really hope you reported those people... most of the people that I talk to that are "higher tier" dpsers aren't that way, we are constantly helping people that ask for help with dps.

spartaxoxo · July 2022

DagenHawk wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't know, someone arguing people like me should be banned for having more DPS than them while farming the same boss as them qualifies to me.

I don't think that asking for balance changes should be labeled as toxic casual behavior, because quite frankly the ceiling does need to be lowered. The people doing endgame content is always a low population to begin with but ESO manages to not even have the population of other games. And you see complaints all the time about the game being dead in Craglorn. I also see people who can raid being unable to because they can't find enough people to fill their group. That's a problem that can only be fixed by making the ceiling lower. So that more people can join.

But, to say it doesn't exist at all? Toxicity can come from everywhere.

Sure they can but there is no evidence that they are casuals for the most part are low key...I don't see them in anyone's face but end game vets are making videos and screaming get out on the forums...but hey Mr Snuffleupagus, turned out to be real too.

I only posted the parts relevant to our discussion, these quotes have had names censored to not name and shame, and some information removed that helps contextualize it greater. They come out less severe in the thread itself (e.g. one said it was fine if someone was going for a specific piece of gear), but they still posted this stuff.

Original Poster

This is just an ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE design, "top 12 damagers get loot, nobody else does".

The trouble being that these top 12 just sit there, and thus are the same people over and over again. They don't go away and LEAVE the chance for other ordinary players to get loot from the world bosses. To be frank, they must be deliberately griefing, they no longer need the loot (and certainly not the daily quests) but are denying it to others this way.

Someone responding to original poster

If they're just sitting there killing the same boss over and over again for an extended period of time, I suppose you could try reporting them. ZOS should be able to look at the game logs to see how long the player was camping the boss location, how many other players were at the same boss location, and whether the player being reported was always one of the top 12 DDs, thereby preventing other players from being able to loot the boss.

So, again, I'm not sure why you think the reason some people aren't getting better is because they are hostile towards "elite" players and the entire process, and express it in a way that's kind of toxic. These people aren't going to be helped by any balance changes because they don't want to get better at the game. They just don't want it. They want to play the game their way, and would be happy with just having an easier time getting the loot from the activities they DO want to do, like world bosses. The gap between floor and ceiling should be lowered, but the devs also need to start targeting the upper middle for help because those are largely where most of the players who want to do things but hit walls end up.

Gnesnig · July 2022

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I think that if... if ZOS would take different approach and for example they would add a Group Finder support for Trials & Arenas, then after like 1 year, the overall "gap" between player performance would decrease (Even if it was only for normal mode). And the gap would not be smaller because top players will somehow get worse at the game. No. It is the overall skill of the "low-end" players that will go up a bit.

I don't think so. I've stopped saying "Hello" in PUG's because over half the time people don't respond. I've yet to find a group, where someone gives me tips about how to tank a specific encounter. What I do see is impatient light armor wearing characters with 1k CP, that don't wait for the group to finish the current encounter and rank up the other trash mobs AND the main target and with a pet breathing fire and now it's up to me to figure out in that fire cluster and other effects going off what the main mob is, that I need to isolate.

So no, I've not learned a single thing from pick up groups. I've learned a few things from sites like Alcasthq, translating the hardmode/veteran to normal and what I've mostly picked up is that tanking without add-ons is not something other group members are expecting from a tank.

MorganaLaVey · July 2022

First of all: PLS stop using the word "Endgame Content". Say exactly what you mean because i dont know. HM Raids? Trifectas? Basegame Vets?

SilverBride wrote: »

I was originally giving an explanation as to why many players see preparing for end game content as a job. For us it is a lot of work and can feel more like a job than a relaxing game.

Others may disagree and try to show that it doesn't take a lot of time and effort but that is subjective. For them it's easy, for us it's work.

No, you where not "giving an explanation as to why many players see preparing for end game content as a job."
You said:

SilverBride wrote: »

That is because it is how many of us feel. Spending countless hours farming gear, reading guides, watching YouTube videos to get gud is not my idea of relaxing. Doing these things does feel like a job.

You where giving an explanation as to what it takes to to "get gud". And thats not subjective.
- countless hours are not magically only a few minutes for someone else.
- farming gear, reading guides, watching YouTube videos is not subjective. Ether you do it or not.

Say how it is:
- Joining a PVE guild does feel like a job for you.
- Crafting gear does feel like a job for you.
- Asking fellow players for help with your build does feel like a job for you.

And that's completely fine. You do yours. Just don't blow it out of proportions.
Because thats what it takes to "get gud". There is nothing subjective about it.

Thtas my opinion at least. If you disagree pls give me concrete examples of what exactly you need to spent how much time on. Like:
If you want to do content x,y,z
- You need to read this guide: *Link* it takes 5h.
- You need to watch all those videos: *Link**Link**Link**Link**Link* it takes 12h.
- You need to farm gear a,b,c,d,e it takes 100h-150h

Because otherwise we will get no where.

spartaxoxo · July 2022

How much time it takes anyone to understand things in a way that makes sense to them is entirely subjective. How long those minutes feel is also entirely subjective.

You can't speak to what someone else would need to feel comfortable at doing raiding.

Some people literally do spends a very long time calculating all kinds of different builds, researching things to the nth degre, etc before they get a handle on what they need. Some just throw on whatever Alcast told them to and get results. To each their own.

MorganaLaVey · July 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

How much time it takes anyone to understand things in a way that makes sense to them is entirely subjective.

If you need to watch a 10 minuts video over and over again for 10 hours to understand it. Thats you, not the game.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

How long those minutes feel is also entirely subjective.

If a few minutes feel like hours to you. Thats you, not the game.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

You can't speak to what someone else would need to feel comfortable at doing raiding.

Some people literally do spends a very long time calculating all kinds of different builds, researching things to the nth degre, etc before they get a handle on what they need.

You can make a spreadsheet about bringen the trash out too. If you feel like you need to do spreadsheeds and farm the very best gear "to feel comfortable at doing raiding." Thats you, not the game.

So dont say: "Spending countless hours farming gear, reading guides, watching YouTube videos to get gud is not my idea of relaxing. Doing these things does feel like a job."

Say: "Spending countless hours watching a 10min video over and over again before i finaly understand it, creating unnecessary spreadsheeds and farming the very best gear so i can feel comfortable at doing raiding, is not my idea of relaxing. Doing these things does feel like a job."

Because then i completly get you, i would not want to do this ether. But if you blow it out of proportion like this it sounds to me like you mean: "Spending 5min crafting/ buying gear and 15min reading guides, watching YouTube videos OR have a guild mate explain stuff to me in game, to get gud is not my idea of relaxing. Doing these things does feel like a job."
But you are embarrassed about it, so you pretend instead of chatting with a guild made for a while, its hell on earth.

spartaxoxo · July 2022

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

How much time it takes anyone to understand things in a way that makes sense to them is entirely subjective.

If you need to watch a 10 minuts video over and over again for 10 hours to understand it. Thats you, not the game.

I never stated anything like that. I actually referred to that as slapping on Alcast build and copying him. I get it. If mindlessly copying what someone else spent a long time putting together qualifies to you as enough understanding, that's fine. But you don't get to decide anyone else's comfort levels.

I promise you that the people who put together those guides aren't just watching a video and copying it though.

Some people want to be able to understand enough to make guides themselves and some people watch them. There's nothing wrong with that. But the ones who watch should maybe not tell the people who do the work themselves how long it takes.

MorganaLaVey · July 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

How much time it takes anyone to understand things in a way that makes sense to them is entirely subjective.

If you need to watch a 10 minuts video over and over again for 10 hours to understand it. Thats you, not the game.

I never stated anything like that. I actually referred to that as slapping on Alcast build and copying him. I get it. If mindlessly copying what someone else spent a long time putting together qualifies to you as enough understanding, that's fine. But you don't get to decide anyone else's comfort levels.

I promise you that the people who put together those guides aren't just watching a video and copying it though.

Some people want to be able to understand enough to make guides themselves and some people watch them. There's nothing wrong with that. But the ones who watch should maybe not tell the people who do the work themselves how long it takes.

But we where not talking about comfort levels or people who want to make guides themselves. We where talking about completing content. Pls stay on topic.

HEIIMS · July 2022

Well, PTS came and waddya know, the proposed changes were a complete flop. I'm honestly baffled why someone, in this current patch, would complain that dealing damage is difficult. This patch it's as easy as it has ever been, even 1 bar builds are capable of doing very solid DPS with oakensoul (rip next patch I guess).

Let me give you an example:
Atm I'm playing stamsorc for my raid group in vet HM dreadsail reef. Out of 10 abilities slotted, I'm actively using 7, you could dumb this build down to using only 4 while still being able to do way more than enough damage for any vet HM content, let alone just regular vet or dungeons. And this is being played in the newest most difficult content possible. Before acquiring the newest trial gear I was using 1 crafted set, 1 set from a DLC dungeon, monster set from basegame dungeon, and a backbar weapon that drops from normal maelstrom arena. Putting this build together with just purple pieces (maybe golded weapons, although even that wouldn't be necessary) would be very little effort, and it would be capable of good damage in any pve content. Yet people complain on how tedious and difficult it is, while in reality they're just looking at some sweaty dummy parse setup with perfected relequen they will never be able to acquire, and missing the point that dummy parses aren't everything, in fact, they mean very little, and have become widely overrated.

This patch dealing good damage is extremely easy, you can also run basically any weapon combination you want, even though dw/2h is the most optimal choice, the rest are not that far behind, but since every dummy parse setup is using dw/2h, less experienced players look at it and think, without knowing, that it's the only way, while many alternatives exist.

Most of experienced community members won't have much problems dealing with the changes, although looking at some of the PTS footage, gameplay is going to be really boring and unfun. While less experienced players (you know, the ones Zos were trying to "help") are going to be completely shafted, and if, in theory, they could have cleared most of vet content this patch, next patch it will be impossible for them.

spartaxoxo · July 2022

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

How much time it takes anyone to understand things in a way that makes sense to them is entirely subjective.

If you need to watch a 10 minuts video over and over again for 10 hours to understand it. Thats you, not the game.

I never stated anything like that. I actually referred to that as slapping on Alcast build and copying him. I get it. If mindlessly copying what someone else spent a long time putting together qualifies to you as enough understanding, that's fine. But you don't get to decide anyone else's comfort levels.

I promise you that the people who put together those guides aren't just watching a video and copying it though.

Some people want to be able to understand enough to make guides themselves and some people watch them. There's nothing wrong with that. But the ones who watch should maybe not tell the people who do the work themselves how long it takes.

But we where not talking about comfort levels or people who want to make guides themselves. We where talking about completing content. Pls stay on topic.

Comfort level is part of someone's ability to complete content. Will they be distracted trying to figure something out or can they just do it? Will stuff click for them? Etc. Again, it's unique to every individual. You can only speak for your own experience. You cannot tell other people what it takes for them to be comfortable and competent at content. It is not objective.

xgoku1 · July 2022

I don't think teaching new players how to LA weave in an "official" tutorial is a good idea. Players new to the game are already overwhelmed with a lot of stuff to do and new information.

First off, animation canceling is a pretty uncommon thing in games. It's something that you learn from the ESO community AFTER they've got their hooks in and get you interested in the game.

I don't see any good outcome from "teaching" it to a new player. Speaking from personal experience, telling someone the combat loop is like a metronome and you need to press the mouse button roughly once a second, is the speedrun of losing interest in the game.

Besides, it's something best learned with a lot of practice, which boils down to training your muscle memory. I don't think it's feasible to teach that, even if it's the best tutorial ever made.

SpacemanSpiff1 · July 2022

Knowing is half the hassle.

Destai · July 2022

There's also a technical gap too.

Take my main character. Ice Warden, full gold frostbite/MS with oakensoul. With weaving, I hit 50k tops. Followed guides to the letter. Half the time, I don't think my skills even fire, will have to press multiple times, have a heavy bug where my character just holds it, just loads of issues. A lot of this is because of animation cancelling and skill clog. For whatever reason, I don't find the system to be consistent. I love it when it works, but that's a big if. There's just too many issues as-is for me to not be supportive of something being done about LAW. I just don't think U35 is the way. Maybe adding auto-attack or something, I don't know.

blktauna · July 2022

SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »

Knowing is half the hassle.

Exactly. You can't practice something you don't know about in the first place. Also, no one said to teach the new player immediately. Thats for later levels. The invite to the practice Arena can come in levelling rewards like the Undaunted does.

sharpshooter2342 · July 2022

aetherial_heavenn wrote: »

Jpk0012 wrote: »

If you can't learn the mechanics do the devs adjust the mechanics or do they say tough luck? Why are players being nerfed, because new players are acting like new players? If a 43 year old can LA weave in combat, anyone can. Its not hard. Its just pressing buttons. No one is asking you to lift 500 lbs or even 10lbs. Your task is to hit a button.

Its one thing to say damage and resistance caps in PVP are out of whack, and run off players. Its another to say PvE dps runs off new players. That doesn't even make sense.

No, not 'anyone can' LA weave in combat. This is absolute [snip]. I play with groups of friends that mostly skew over 50 years old (half our regular run members are over 60) and we have arthritis, repetitive injuries from too many twitchy FPS games in the olden days, or even from writing with a pen too much! Some of us never had good twitch reactions due to biology, or do have bad bad internet...try LA weaving with over 350 ping! All of us in these groups can complete normal trials and a lot of vet content-trials and dungeons.

A few in our groups have better than average LA weaves, a couple have perfect LA weaves but the majority of us do not. Removing 10% - 20% of my massive 40k dps on a trials dummy isn't going make a lot of difference to me. The 10% plus improvement to damage from LA weaving a few years ago that was intended to raise the floor did not make me a sweaty trifecta player and taking it away again isn't likely affect what our groups do. We will never get that last 20% dps from perfect weaving and buff up times that makes you really spicy. I simply refuse to put myself in pain and get spasms in my hand just to squeeze out that extra DPS from perfect weaving, when I know the reason I am not trifecta material is not just LA weaving, it's the whole shebang: confidence, practice, situational awareness, rotation (buffs and dots never dropping-not just LA weaving) perfected gear, etc..

But I welcome the attempt at reduction in disparity of damage cause by LA weaving versus other things because the gap between perfect weavers and the rest has got huge. For me, twitching between every skill is not the most pleasing or painless way to get good. I'd rather more understanding of buffs and dots and up-times were rewarded and heavy attacks builds were a bit more viable in vet content.

I understand these changes will affect a few people...those who do 80K will do 70K, those who do 120k will do 95k, maybe (depending on dots changes) and that will add up in a trial but the majority will go from 30k in a dungeon to 27 k on the same boss, is my guess. Hardly earth shattering.

Or a reason to continue to exacerbate the RSI many end gamers suffer from ....

(edited to add:

or a reason for excluding older/ disabled players by increasing/over-weighting the damage that hitting the mouse button after every skill does. I get that one does not spam LA's to weave well and that slowing down can actually increase dps and action per minute (APM) recorded by the game because when one spams it cancels your own skills/attacks. However, even clicking that mouse button after every skill can cause pain when repeated over and over with one's finger/hand in the same position. I also think a lot of other stuff suggested in other threads could assist players to learn/improve too. I don't see this an isolated change. In fact I suspect that it, and the proposed dot change are actually being made to reduce server side calculations but I did want to point out this LA weave mechanic is not just a case of 'practice and git gud' for many of us. )

[edited for profanity bypass]

There's some players parsing on pts that are losing 30% dps and I get that not everyone can weave perfectly due to age or disability. But the reason this hurts everyone including those that are not able to weave is a loss to damage period hurts everyone. Those that can put out those insane numbers make up the difference for those that can't in group content. This is literally the only game I have ever played that punishes players for being good. There's no progress or getting more powerful in the game anymore. Yes there should be builds that are more viable for those that are unable to weave like HA builds they should be able to get through vet content. Vet Black rose is supposed to be the hardest 4 man content and my group was able to clear it with 3 HA builds but we spent hours learning the mechanics on our regular builds before even attempting with HA builds. 9/10 people fail at content because they don't know mechanics and are unwilling to learn or even look up a guide. I've been playing since launch and I am not a young gamer and occasionally my group comes across something that has us stumped so we look it up and we try and try and try until we get it. The issue is most new/inexperienced players want the reward without putting in the work. This Nerf they're doing will further divide the community and is pushing out all the vets who can teach content and help groups progress. When there's nobody left to teach there will be nobody doing any content.

Rowjoh · July 2022

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Did you not read the posts above yours about those who have issues with this?

So they should just leave the game?

(Not going to say anymore as will get modded. Or banned.)

[/quote]

Please dont put words in my mouth. I never said or even implied players should leave the game.

Just to give you context, new players and poorer performing players that can't light attack weave/rotate skills very well (for whatever reason) still wont be able to ! They wont be any better off at all. It'll merely reduce the more skilled players damage output a bit.

Weaving is something that 1000's of players have practiced and mastered since the game began and is what seperates the good players from the not so good. These players reap the benefit of effort, dedication and practice required over a period of time.

And as ZoS openly state in their PTS patch notes:

"Weaving drastically increases your agency and output, and it is a staple of the game that we’ve come to embrace, as it helps our combat feel different and exciting to participate in once you learn the ins and outs"

The clue is in the phrase 'once you learn the ins and outs' so it doesn't make sense at all to bastardise the very thing that differentiates ESO from the rest and gives it a uniqueness purely on the basis that some people 'struggle' with it.

aetherial_heavenn · July 2022

sharpshooter2342 wrote: »

aetherial_heavenn wrote: »

Jpk0012 wrote: »

If you can't learn the mechanics do the devs adjust the mechanics or do they say tough luck? Why are players being nerfed, because new players are acting like new players? If a 43 year old can LA weave in combat, anyone can. Its not hard. Its just pressing buttons. No one is asking you to lift 500 lbs or even 10lbs. Your task is to hit a button.

Its one thing to say damage and resistance caps in PVP are out of whack, and run off players. Its another to say PvE dps runs off new players. That doesn't even make sense.

No, not 'anyone can' LA weave in combat. This is absolute [snip]. I play with groups of friends that mostly skew over 50 years old (half our regular run members are over 60) and we have arthritis, repetitive injuries from too many twitchy FPS games in the olden days, or even from writing with a pen too much! Some of us never had good twitch reactions due to biology, or do have bad bad internet...try LA weaving with over 350 ping! All of us in these groups can complete normal trials and a lot of vet content-trials and dungeons.

A few in our groups have better than average LA weaves, a couple have perfect LA weaves but the majority of us do not. Removing 10% - 20% of my massive 40k dps on a trials dummy isn't going make a lot of difference to me. The 10% plus improvement to damage from LA weaving a few years ago that was intended to raise the floor did not make me a sweaty trifecta player and taking it away again isn't likely affect what our groups do. We will never get that last 20% dps from perfect weaving and buff up times that makes you really spicy. I simply refuse to put myself in pain and get spasms in my hand just to squeeze out that extra DPS from perfect weaving, when I know the reason I am not trifecta material is not just LA weaving, it's the whole shebang: confidence, practice, situational awareness, rotation (buffs and dots never dropping-not just LA weaving) perfected gear, etc..

But I welcome the attempt at reduction in disparity of damage cause by LA weaving versus other things because the gap between perfect weavers and the rest has got huge. For me, twitching between every skill is not the most pleasing or painless way to get good. I'd rather more understanding of buffs and dots and up-times were rewarded and heavy attacks builds were a bit more viable in vet content.

I understand these changes will affect a few people...those who do 80K will do 70K, those who do 120k will do 95k, maybe (depending on dots changes) and that will add up in a trial but the majority will go from 30k in a dungeon to 27 k on the same boss, is my guess. Hardly earth shattering.

Or a reason to continue to exacerbate the RSI many end gamers suffer from ....

(edited to add:

or a reason for excluding older/ disabled players by increasing/over-weighting the damage that hitting the mouse button after every skill does. I get that one does not spam LA's to weave well and that slowing down can actually increase dps and action per minute (APM) recorded by the game because when one spams it cancels your own skills/attacks. However, even clicking that mouse button after every skill can cause pain when repeated over and over with one's finger/hand in the same position. I also think a lot of other stuff suggested in other threads could assist players to learn/improve too. I don't see this an isolated change. In fact I suspect that it, and the proposed dot change are actually being made to reduce server side calculations but I did want to point out this LA weave mechanic is not just a case of 'practice and git gud' for many of us. )

[edited for profanity bypass]

There's some players parsing on pts that are losing 30% dps and I get that not everyone can weave perfectly due to age or disability. But the reason this hurts everyone including those that are not able to weave is a loss to damage period hurts everyone. Those that can put out those insane numbers make up the difference for those that can't in group content. This is literally the only game I have ever played that punishes players for being good. There's no progress or getting more powerful in the game anymore. Yes there should be builds that are more viable for those that are unable to weave like HA builds they should be able to get through vet content. Vet Black rose is supposed to be the hardest 4 man content and my group was able to clear it with 3 HA builds but we spent hours learning the mechanics on our regular builds before even attempting with HA builds. 9/10 people fail at content because they don't know mechanics and are unwilling to learn or even look up a guide. I've been playing since launch and I am not a young gamer and occasionally my group comes across something that has us stumped so we look it up and we try and try and try until we get it. The issue is most new/inexperienced players want the reward without putting in the work. This Nerf they're doing will further divide the community and is pushing out all the vets who can teach content and help groups progress. When there's nobody left to teach there will be nobody doing any content.

Completely agree about the disparity. Completely agree about the damage gap not reducing with this particular iteration of the change. Would love if HA builds were viable in vet content.Would love if the one bar builds that made it viable for some of us to just about get into the vet DLC trials, so players like you could carry us, while we learned, as is necessary. Sincerelywould love that too.

To clarify
I don't think rewarding weaving should be off the table, just less weighted as a damage source. I would like to see the damage from LAs stay a fixed amount but a higher amount. Can't say what because i'm no theory crafter, but plenty of those have made suggestions about what that flat amount should be to reduce the OP end without hitting the 95% and down. I am assuming diminishing returns for weaving, not making it completely useless. The problem is not high people can parse, the problems arise when some people can clear a vet hard mode boss in 4 mins and most of the players cannot get into a normal craglorn trial easily in order to learn.

I am not saying the curent changes are optimal. My post (before PTS tests by the way.

) was simply trying to explain where some accessibility issues lie to someone who said 'anyone can weave with practice'.

Ragnarok0130 · July 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

How much time it takes anyone to understand things in a way that makes sense to them is entirely subjective.

If you need to watch a 10 minuts video over and over again for 10 hours to understand it. Thats you, not the game.

I actually referred to that as slapping on Alcast build and copying him. I get it. If mindlessly copying what someone else spent a long time putting together qualifies to you as enough understanding, that's fine. But you don't get to decide anyone else's comfort levels.

This isn't specifically directed at you but at the comment/sentiment about using builds in general that I've seen in the community and forums. In any type of in depth activity you need to crawl, walk, then run. If you're just starting out and with little knowledge, then "slapping on an Alcast build" is in fact an excellent place to start even if you don't yet understand why the build is the way it is. Once you get a proper build to fulfill the role you wish to do, then you can begin understanding your build, its idiosyncrasies, your role, and then learning how to adjust the build you "slapped on" for group composition, specific dungeon/trial mechanics, etc. This is after all an MMO and not a singly player TES game where anything goes so "play how you want", while liberating in some facets will hold you back in ESO if you steadfastly refuse to adapt to what is proven to work for harder content that one may wish to participate in.

Personally I'd much prefer someone that slaps on a proven build as a starting point to group with than some of the "non-conformists who conform to non-conformity" that refuse to use a build because they're anti-meta on general principle and fail in their role like I've seen far too often in dungeons. It's always easier to progress long term when you can start with a solid foundation and knowledge base rather than having to figure everything out for yourself by trial and error. You'll progress farther in the long run too using the community's larger knowledge and experience base.

JustAGoodPlayer · July 2022

Knowledge about buff sets that do bugs in PVP, cheat PO, bugs that do not fix for years, or what knowledge ?

That it is skill that hit for 2x other for 1.5*x, so you just update them when they ends and press LA betwin ?

Not much knowledge if you say about second knowledge

Because first one needs fix !
Second is to short to be named knowledge