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There is a skill gap, yes. But more importantly: there is a knowledge gap!
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Troodon80✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Overland is designed to be the introduction. To a brand new player, freshly out of the tutorial, with fewer skill points and attributes than you can count on one hand (and no CP), overland can even appear daunting, especially when that player is also casually playing the game for an hour or so a day and are thus levelling up at a snail's pace. We don't need an overtuned overland. People on the forum often forget what it's like to be a new player, what it's like not having the accumulated knowledge and experience that they have now.There is skill gap only because overland is too easy.. Players are fine in overland and when they first try vet dungeon its devastating to them and some are discouraged to even try again
You go from overland to normal difficulty dungeons and trials. From normal, you go to veteran, then to hard mode. Anyone jumping into dungeons from overland straight into veteran is making a huge mistake. I still remember hitting that 10CP mark years ago with a friend, and we decided to immediately jump into veteran Fungal Grotto 1. We died to the first pack. We persevered and got past the first boss, but wiped to the mobs in the room where War Chief Ozozai is. We tried luring them out one by one, but died again and again. I didn't touch veteran content again until I was around 250 CP. I realised very early on that there is a linear progression and if you try to jump ahead unprepared then you're probably going to have a bad time.
Compared to that, I can now solo all base game dungeons (which can be soloed) on veteran, and even a few DLC -- meaning base game dungeons are a joke -- but that simply means I'm not the target audience for base game dungeons. They're a joke now, but there was still a time when I struggled. That was a time when I was new to the game and inexperienced. At the time, they definitely were not a joke.
Edited by Troodon80 on July 10, 2022 11:10PM@Troodon80 PC | EU
Guild: N&S
Hand of Alkosh | Dawnbringer | Immortal Redeemer | Tick Tock Tormentor | Gryphon Heart
Deep Dive into Dreadsail Reef Mechanics10 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭In theory ESO logs could fix most of the knowledge gap. Anyone can go look at top player builds for any content, view their gear, skill bars, timing on every cast, watch their movements on a map in real time, buff and debuff uptimes, etc. The problem is that most players are unaware this resource exists, and even those who know rarely utilize it. Playing well just isn't necessary for most content, and there's no incentive to seek it out.5 -
MorganaLaVey✭✭✭✭
Except you dont have to spend countless hours doing any of this.SilverBride wrote: »
That is because it is how many of us feel. Spending countless hours farming gear, reading guides, watching YouTube videos to get gud is not my idea of relaxing. Doing these things does feel like a job.
I was an avid raider in a few other MMOs but all I want to do now is relax and have fun. That is why I don't do it any more.
Farming gear: Get crafted gear and buy from guildvendor. Its good enougth for everything non HM by far.
Reading guides, watching YouTube videos: Pls link me the video/ guide i "need" watch/ read and lets see how long it takes me to get through. I bet its 10-15 min, not countless hours...
Smh 🙄 where do you guys even get this nonsense from ? You`r complaining about issues that dont even exist. You`r saying you cant improve and play the contend you want to play because of issues that dont even exist.
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WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MorganaLaVey wrote: »
Except you dont have to spend countless hours doing any of this.SilverBride wrote: »
That is because it is how many of us feel. Spending countless hours farming gear, reading guides, watching YouTube videos to get gud is not my idea of relaxing. Doing these things does feel like a job.
I was an avid raider in a few other MMOs but all I want to do now is relax and have fun. That is why I don't do it any more.
Farming gear: Get crafted gear and buy from guildvendor. Its good enougth for everything non HM by far.
Reading guides, watching YouTube videos: Pls link me the video/ guide i "need" watch/ read and lets see how long it takes me to get through. I bet its 10-15 min, not countless hours...
As someone who raids with minimal free time, I have to agree. I recently completed a vDSR HM prog without ever reading a guide or watching any videos. My stamina gear was badly outdated, and I still haven't had a chance to update it so ended up using sets from 4+ years ago (Relequen, Alkosh, Burning Spellweave etc.). I still do not own a set of Whorl, Coral Riptide, Blackrose Daggers or even a Maelstrom 2H (it's on the to-do list).
That was for the hardest content in the game. We all have our own definitions of relaxing and having fun, I avoid "job" activities like writs and daily quests. With all the great options that exist now you can complete literally anything with minimal farming (maybe one good mythic or monster set). Order's Wrath is a great new crafted set, and things like Mother's Sorrow can be purchased from guild stores.Edited by WrathOfInnos on July 11, 2022 12:13AM7 -
Mik195✭✭✭✭✭
✭EdmondDontes wrote: »FlopsyPrince wrote: »EdmondDontes wrote: »I'm really nervous about this change. This could hit PvP players really hard. And all in all it seems like ZOS is moving the game toward being a much more vanilla game for casuals rather than skilled players that have spent years refining their builds and rotations.
Casuals are most of the players.
That doesn't mean they shouldn't have things to draw those who get into it more of course, but don't denigrate the casuals since they are the ones who pay the bulk of the costs to get you the content you want.
There are no casual players that have spent thousands of dollars on this game. Most casual players don't even pay the $15/month ESO+ sub.
It's a myth and a factual inaccuracy to claim casual players support ESO in any capacity what so ever. Sure, you see them dominating this forum, but they don't dominate spending or any other aspect of ESO.
You are 100% incorrect. I have spent thousands and I'm pretty much as casual as you get given that I can't consistently roll dodge, heavy attack or use my ultimate. I'm fairly sure that my bear out DPSs me most of the time.
My gaming budget is such that every time crowns go on sale, I purchase $400 to $600 of them because crown crates make me happy. I get the same enjoyment of opening a few crates that I used to get (when I went into stores) from visiting Nordstrom and buying a bunch of work clothes (when I used to wear work clothes in an office). Crown crates are cheap, never need dusting and don't have to be lugged to Goodwill eventually.
DLC dungeons on normal are beyond my skill currently (and possibly forever). So I'm definitely casual and spends lots of money each year. So yes, I'm paying for content I can't do.5 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭EdmondDontes wrote: »FlopsyPrince wrote: »EdmondDontes wrote: »I'm really nervous about this change. This could hit PvP players really hard. And all in all it seems like ZOS is moving the game toward being a much more vanilla game for casuals rather than skilled players that have spent years refining their builds and rotations.
Casuals are most of the players.
That doesn't mean they shouldn't have things to draw those who get into it more of course, but don't denigrate the casuals since they are the ones who pay the bulk of the costs to get you the content you want.
There are no casual players that have spent thousands of dollars on this game. Most casual players don't even pay the $15/month ESO+ sub.
It's a myth and a factual inaccuracy to claim casual players support ESO in any capacity what so ever. Sure, you see them dominating this forum, but they don't dominate spending or any other aspect of ESO.
You are 100% incorrect. I have spent thousands and I'm pretty much as casual as you get given that I can't consistently roll dodge, heavy attack or use my ultimate. I'm fairly sure that my bear out DPSs me most of the time.
My gaming budget is such that every time crowns go on sale, I purchase $400 to $600 of them because crown crates make me happy. I get the same enjoyment of opening a few crates that I used to get (when I went into stores) from visiting Nordstrom and buying a bunch of work clothes (when I used to wear work clothes in an office). Crown crates are cheap, never need dusting and don't have to be lugged to Goodwill eventually.
DLC dungeons on normal are beyond my skill currently (and possibly forever). So I'm definitely casual and spends lots of money each year. So yes, I'm paying for content I can't do.
I'm right there with you. Though I don't currently buy crates (because SOE make me a VERY happy camper) - but that's just a minor quibble after all!______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....0 -
SeaGtGruff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MorganaLaVey wrote: »
Except you dont have to spend countless hours doing any of this.SilverBride wrote: »
That is because it is how many of us feel. Spending countless hours farming gear, reading guides, watching YouTube videos to get gud is not my idea of relaxing. Doing these things does feel like a job.
I was an avid raider in a few other MMOs but all I want to do now is relax and have fun. That is why I don't do it any more.
Farming gear: Get crafted gear and buy from guildvendor. Its good enougth for everything non HM by far.
Reading guides, watching YouTube videos: Pls link me the video/ guide i "need" watch/ read and lets see how long it takes me to get through. I bet its 10-15 min, not countless hours...
Smh 🙄 where do you guys even get this nonsense from ? You`r complaining about issues that dont even exist. You`r saying you cant improve and play the contend you want to play because of issues that dont even exist.
That comes across as a bit harsh and uncalled-for. She said she used to be "an avid raider in a few other MMOs," so it seems safe to say that she's already very well-acquainted with how this stuff all works. Responding to her as though she's clueless about it and is just spouting "nonsense" and saying she "cant improve" "because of issues that dont even exist" is unhelpful.
I used to watch an ESO streamer who loved to play PvP, and one day one of her viewers asked her to recommend some gear that would be good for a particular build. She said, "Let me go grab my notebook," and came back with a looseleaf binder that she'd filled with page after page of notes about different builds. She sat there flipping through her pages to look at a number of different possibilities while answering to the question.
In forum threads that talk about min-maxing, BIS, and META, occasionally someone will refer to their spreadsheets.
Now, I don't mean to imply that all "vet" players keep notebooks and spreadsheets and such, but it is a fact that some do. Is it necessary to do so? Of course not. Is it desirable to do so? In some cases, it can be helpful, because taking notes and doing research can help people learn and remember facts. But I think it might also be a bit counter-productive if the "facts" which are being learned and remembered are subject to change, because then you just have to spend time rewriting some of your notes or updating your spreadsheets.
I see some streamers who, when asked about builds, will sit there and start verbally listing gear set after gear set while they are still in the process of running a trial, talking about how this or that set used to perform well for a specific build under the previous update, but then it was affected by changes made in the current update such that it's no longer BIS, but the next update that's coming out in the following month will have more changes which might result in it being BIS again, etc. They are usually the same streamers who will sit there for an entire stream and read through the PTS patch notes as soon as they're posted, dissecting and discussing all of the changes which will be coming, and talking about whether certain builds will be positively or negatively impacted. They don't have to go look anything up, because they've spent so much time learning it all that they've got it all in their head and can spout it off on command. Do they spend "countless hours" on it? Well, if they can never stop doing it because there's never going to be an end to changes being made, then "countless" in the sense of being "indeterminate" and "unpredictable" due to not being able to put a definite number to it might not be so far off.
Some people genuinely enjoy doing that; it's fun for them. Other people don't enjoy doing it; it's tedious to them. And those are just the two extremes; there are a lot of shades of grey on the continuum between those two extremes. It's up to each of us to decide how much or how little time and effort to spend on learning about what sets are available within the game, where they come from-- crafted, dropped overland, or dropped from dungeons or trials-- what their bonuses are, etc. We should respect each other's choices about which types of in-game content we enjoy (or don't enjoy) and how much time and effort we each want to devote to different aspects of the game.I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!13 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@SeaGtGruff - I wish I could give you a billion awesomes!______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....0 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MorganaLaVey wrote: »
Except you dont have to spend countless hours doing any of this.SilverBride wrote: »
That is because it is how many of us feel. Spending countless hours farming gear, reading guides, watching YouTube videos to get gud is not my idea of relaxing. Doing these things does feel like a job.
I was an avid raider in a few other MMOs but all I want to do now is relax and have fun. That is why I don't do it any more.
Farming gear: Get crafted gear and buy from guildvendor. Its good enougth for everything non HM by far.
Reading guides, watching YouTube videos: Pls link me the video/ guide i "need" watch/ read and lets see how long it takes me to get through. I bet its 10-15 min, not countless hours...
Smh 🙄 where do you guys even get this nonsense from ? You`r complaining about issues that dont even exist. You`r saying you cant improve and play the contend you want to play because of issues that dont even exist.
As @SeaGtGruff pointed out I am well aware of what it takes to prepare for end game content, and it is a lot of work. Work that I am not willing to do any longer because my main goal now is fun and relaxation.
But most importantly I have never once said that I can't improve. I've come a long way from when I returned a few years ago and I am as good as I need to be for how I play. And I did it without stressing myself.
[edited to clarify and condense]Edited by SilverBride on July 11, 2022 3:35AMPCNA2 -
aetherial_heavenn✭✭✭✭✭If you can't learn the mechanics do the devs adjust the mechanics or do they say tough luck? Why are players being nerfed, because new players are acting like new players? If a 43 year old can LA weave in combat, anyone can. Its not hard. Its just pressing buttons. No one is asking you to lift 500 lbs or even 10lbs. Your task is to hit a button.
Its one thing to say damage and resistance caps in PVP are out of whack, and run off players. Its another to say PvE dps runs off new players. That doesn't even make sense.
No, not 'anyone can' LA weave in combat. This is absolute [snip]. I play with groups of friends that mostly skew over 50 years old (half our regular run members are over 60) and we have arthritis, repetitive injuries from too many twitchy FPS games in the olden days, or even from writing with a pen too much! Some of us never had good twitch reactions due to biology, or do have bad bad internet...try LA weaving with over 350 ping! All of us in these groups can complete normal trials and a lot of vet content-trials and dungeons.
A few in our groups have better than average LA weaves, a couple have perfect LA weaves but the majority of us do not. Removing 10% - 20% of my massive 40k dps on a trials dummy isn't going make a lot of difference to me.
The 10% plus improvement to damage from LA weaving a few years ago that was intended to raise the floor did not make me a sweaty trifecta player and taking it away again isn't likely affect what our groups do. We will never get that last 20% dps from perfect weaving and buff up times that makes you really spicy. I simply refuse to put myself in pain and get spasms in my hand just to squeeze out that extra DPS from perfect weaving, when I know the reason I am not trifecta material is not just LA weaving, it's the whole shebang: confidence, practice, situational awareness, rotation (buffs and dots never dropping-not just LA weaving) perfected gear, etc..
But I welcome the attempt at reduction in disparity of damage cause by LA weaving versus other things because the gap between perfect weavers and the rest has got huge. For me, twitching between every skill is not the most pleasing or painless way to get good. I'd rather more understanding of buffs and dots and up-times were rewarded and heavy attacks builds were a bit more viable in vet content.
I understand these changes will affect a few people...those who do 80K will do 70K, those who do 120k will do 95k, maybe (depending on dots changes) and that will add up in a trial but the majority will go from 30k in a dungeon to 27 k on the same boss, is my guess. Hardly earth shattering.
Or a reason to continue to exacerbate the RSI many end gamers suffer from ....
(edited to add:
or a reason for excluding older/ disabled players by increasing/over-weighting the damage that hitting the mouse button after every skill does. I get that one does not spam LA's to weave well and that slowing down can actually increase dps and action per minute (APM) recorded by the game because when one spams it cancels your own skills/attacks. However, even clicking that mouse button after every skill can cause pain when repeated over and over with one's finger/hand in the same position. I also think a lot of other stuff suggested in other threads could assist players to learn/improve too. I don't see this an isolated change. In fact I suspect that it, and the proposed dot change are actually being made to reduce server side calculations but I did want to point out this LA weave mechanic is not just a case of 'practice and git gud' for many of us. )
[edited for profanity bypass]Edited by aetherial_heavenn on July 12, 2022 5:06AMQuoted for truth
"In my experience, the elite ones have not been very toxic, and the toxic ones not very elite." WrathOfInnos2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If a 43 year old can LA weave in combat, anyone can. Its not hard. Its just pressing buttons. No one is asking you to lift 500 lbs or even 10lbs. Your task is to hit a button.
Not everyone is able bodied, and some of the people playing are quite a bit older than you. Not to mention not everyone's reaction times are the same, latency, etc. There's a whole host of reasons. This is just wildly incorrect.Edited by spartaxoxo on July 11, 2022 3:43AM7 -
rpa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭There is skill gap only because overland is too easy.. Players are fine in overland and when they first try vet dungeon its devastating to them and some are discouraged to even try again
Overland needs to be easy. If it was any challenge to medicore max level players with cheap but sensibe gear it would be tedious to everyone and disaster to new players. Maybe there could be more variation in challenge level of world bosses and events. Like the Bittergreen but which actually need a group of people to beat. Or even some open world raid bosses with a simple mechanic to mind or die.2 -
Pevey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭People are defensively throwing around "toxic casual" without having seen Nefas's video, I think. He wasn't saying that all casuals are toxic. Far from it. There is no animosity against casual players.
He uses "toxic casual" to refer to a specific type of player who is anti-elite in the same way some people are anti-intellectual.
As in, it's not enough for that person, as a casual player, to be uninterested in sweaty content. A toxic casual actively dislikes and is toxic toward players who ARE interested in that sort of content.
The point is that, yes, some elite players can be toxic when they insist everyone should play like them or go home, but some casuals can be just as toxic in the exact same way. And they often don't even realize they are doing it. That is what the video is about.
We can all coexist. Peace!Edited by Pevey on July 11, 2022 4:51AM12 -
BahometZ✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It would be interesting to have a global poll to see what activity players want to complete and what they think is holding them back from doing that.
Seems like most players could care less about veteran content.
If that's the case then maybe zos are going to be wary of releasing dlc dungeons and trials in the future. If people arent engaging with it then why spend resources on it.
In fact I'd be very curious to know how many people who don't have eso+ actually purchase the new dlc dungeon packs.
I feel like this whole discussion of content difficulty gets twisted every time it comes up by people who feel slighted by being defined this way or that. Engage with the content how you want, but maybe don't dismiss the complaints of others who feel their play time is being disrespected, whatever game activity that isPact Magplar - Max CP (NA XB)3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭He uses "toxic casual" to refer to a specific type of player who is anti-elite in the same way some people are anti-intellectual.
I remember a good example of that. I saw this post where this player was complaining that he wasn't getting loot from bosses, because "toxic elitists" kept killing the boss over and over again. Which prevented him from getting loot because there was too many of them there. That boss was dropping a lead that people wanted. So people were farming it. He said vet players who kill bosses more than once or twice should be banned from the game because they were griefing him by not letting him get the loot because they kill too fast. It was okay for players like him to farm the same boss though, because "normal' players don't prevent people from getting loot.2 -
katanagirl1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »If a 43 year old can LA weave in combat, anyone can. Its not hard. Its just pressing buttons. No one is asking you to lift 500 lbs or even 10lbs. Your task is to hit a button.
Not everyone is able bodied, and some of the people playing are quite a bit older than you. Not to mention not everyone's reaction times are the same, latency, etc. There's a whole host of reasons. This is just wildly incorrect.
Exactly. I press the buttons, skill, LA, skill, LA, skill....bar swap, skill, LA, skill, LA, skill... and I get 20k dps.
You have the timing perfectly and I don’t. Six years of trying and I still don’t. But I wrap my right wrist up with boxers tape each time I do this so it doesn’t hurt and can only do a max of two hours of this. I’m old and have a repetitive use injury.
Show some compassion instead of elitism.
Khajiit Stamblade main
Dark Elf Magsorc
Redguard Stamina Dragonknight
Orc Stamplar PVP
Breton Magsorc PVP
Dark Elf Necromancer
Dark Elf Magden
Khajiit Stamblade
Khajiit Stamina Arcanist
PS5 NA7 -
MorganaLaVey✭✭✭✭
Yes it is harsh, because im tired of hearing it.SeaGtGruff wrote: »MorganaLaVey wrote: »
Smh 🙄 where do you guys even get this nonsense from ? You`r complaining about issues that dont even exist. You`r saying you cant improve and play the contend you want to play because of issues that dont even exist.
That comes across as a bit harsh and uncalled-for.
-"You need to spend countless hours farming gear."
-"You need to spend countless hours in front of a dummy."
-"You need to spend countless hours to perfect your rotation."
-"You need to spend countless hours to perfect your LA weaving."
-"You need to gold out your gear."
-"You need to have perfected gear from vet raids."
-"You need to read guides about all the boss mechanics."
-"You need superhumen reflexes."
You dont need any of this even for DLC HM raids. I have so often just put some crafted gear on 200cp players, showed them how to do a 1-2-3 barswap 1-2-2-2-2-2 rotation for 20k-25k dps and then cleard vet DLC dungeons with them for the helmet.
A week or so ago someone claimed:
-"You need a monster set to hit harder than 20k dps."
Or check this out, same thread:*nothing* for two days now. Will i ever get my exemples? Guess not.It's not laziness to [...] not let this single, seemingly exploitive mechanic dominate everything we do in the game. There is a lot that goes into combat that is overlooked and overshadowed by this single mechanic.
To clarify, when I refer to LA Weaving, I'm specifically referring to [...] The thing that everyone tells every player of every class they MUST do in order to be a productive member of ESO.[...]just go to any content creators videos or site and see how much emphasis they put on this mechanic.MorganaLaVey wrote: »But i honestly dont see that content creators videos or sites put much emphasis on this mechanic.
For exemple Alacast Builds for Necro Dps:
light attacks are mentioned only 2 times.1. Skills Explanation:
Unstable Wall of Fire: This needs to be on the ground all the times as it deals a lot of damage with a strong explosion and also buffs the damage of your Light Attacks if you have a Maelstrom Staff.
2. Rotation for the Magicka Necromancer Build:
Here is a quick explanation of what you have to do with all the skills on your bar.
Your main spammable is Ricochet Skull.
Your semi spammable is Stalking Blastbones, preferably activate this after every second or third skill.
Reapply DoTs (damage over time) effects after they run out: Detonating Siphon, Skeletal Arcanist, Avid Boneyard, Unstable Wall of Elements, Mystic Orb and Channeled Acceleration.
Activate the Glacial Colossus ultimate whenever it is ready.
Always light attack between each ability.
I would not call this "puting much emphasis on it".
Maybe you can show me different exemples where they do ?
And you have this all the time. Someone comes and complains about how hard every thing is how you need to spend so muhch time, how LA weaving is ruining the game etc... . And when you want to see some exemples of what content they cant do with out specific gear or LA weaving or anything else, you just get silence. Its nonsese.
And how did we start talking about endgame now ?
This we talked about "We log in to quest, explore, decorate our houses, dig up antiquities, try on different outfits, roleplay, get an achievement..."Word. I play ESO to relax and have fun. It's a game, not a job.
We log in to quest, explore, decorate our houses, dig up antiquities, try on different outfits, roleplay, get an achievement or two, take screenshots of interesting places, dance to the bards' music, maybe meet up with guildies occasionally to do some overland group stuff, etc. One of the things I love doing is just riding around a zone at top speed.SilverBride wrote: »That is because it is how many of us feel. Spending countless hours farming gear, reading guides, watching YouTube videos to get gud.MorganaLaVey wrote: »Except you dont have to spend countless hours doing any of this.
Farming gear: Get crafted gear and buy from guildvendor. Its good enougth for everything non HM by far.
Reading guides, watching YouTube videos: Pls link me the video/ guide i "need" watch/ read and lets see how long it takes me to get through. I bet its 10-15 min, not countless hours...WrathOfInnos wrote: »As someone who raids with minimal free time, I have to agree. I recently completed a vDSR HM prog without ever reading a guide or watching any videos. My stamina gear was badly outdated, [...]. I still do not own a set of Whorl, Coral Riptide, Blackrose Daggers or even a Maelstrom 2H (it's on the to-do list).
That was for the hardest content in the game. [...] With all the great options that exist now you can complete literally anything with minimal farming (maybe one good mythic or monster set). Order's Wrath is a great new crafted set, and things like Mother's Sorrow can be purchased from guild stores.SilverBride wrote: »As @SeaGtGruff pointed out I am well aware of what it takes to prepare for end game content, and it is a lot of work. Work that I am not willing to do any longer because my main goal now is fun and relaxation.
Also you cant just say: "I am well aware of what it takes" "it is a lot of work.", when WrathOfInnos and i argued against it and even showed exemples. We can only talk in a circle now.SilverBride wrote: »Spending countless hours farming gear, reading guides, watching YouTube videos to get gud.MorganaLaVey wrote: »Except you dont have to spend countless hours doing any of this.WrathOfInnos wrote: »As someone who raids with minimal free time, I have to agree. I recently completed a vDSR HM prog without ever reading a guide or watching any videos. My stamina gear was badly outdated,...
That was for the hardest content in the game.SilverBride wrote: »I am well aware of what it takes [...] and it is a lot of work.MorganaLaVey wrote: »Except you dont have to spend countless hours doing any of this.WrathOfInnos wrote: »As someone who raids with minimal free time, I have to agree. ...
You said:SilverBride wrote: »But most importantly I have never once said that I can't improve. I've come a long way from when I returned a few years ago and I am as good as I need to be for how I play. And I did it without stressing myself.
Which i took as "You cant improve to the point you want to be." Because otherwise, wy comlpain about it being to much work if you dont want to do it anyway ?SilverBride wrote: »it is a lot of work. Work that I am not willing to do
Everyone has a point where he says: "it is a lot of work. Work that I am not willing to do". Doesn't matter weather its vet, DLC, HM, trifecta, scores or better scores. Everyone gets there at some point. So why bring it even up ?
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EdmondDontes✭✭✭✭✭
✭EdmondDontes wrote: »FlopsyPrince wrote: »EdmondDontes wrote: »I'm really nervous about this change. This could hit PvP players really hard. And all in all it seems like ZOS is moving the game toward being a much more vanilla game for casuals rather than skilled players that have spent years refining their builds and rotations.
Casuals are most of the players.
That doesn't mean they shouldn't have things to draw those who get into it more of course, but don't denigrate the casuals since they are the ones who pay the bulk of the costs to get you the content you want.
There are no casual players that have spent thousands of dollars on this game. Most casual players don't even pay the $15/month ESO+ sub.
It's a myth and a factual inaccuracy to claim casual players support ESO in any capacity what so ever. Sure, you see them dominating this forum, but they don't dominate spending or any other aspect of ESO.
You are 100% incorrect. I have spent thousands and I'm pretty much as casual as you get given that I can't consistently roll dodge, heavy attack or use my ultimate. I'm fairly sure that my bear out DPSs me most of the time.
My gaming budget is such that every time crowns go on sale, I purchase $400 to $600 of them because crown crates make me happy. I get the same enjoyment of opening a few crates that I used to get (when I went into stores) from visiting Nordstrom and buying a bunch of work clothes (when I used to wear work clothes in an office). Crown crates are cheap, never need dusting and don't have to be lugged to Goodwill eventually.
DLC dungeons on normal are beyond my skill currently (and possibly forever). So I'm definitely casual and spends lots of money each year. So yes, I'm paying for content I can't do.
You are the first person I've ever seen try to make the case that crown crates are inexpensive. Most would agree that they are cheap, given how much they cost vs. what you get out of the crates.
And if you're spending $400-600 every time crowns go on sale, you have significant disposable income most people do not have.
Edited by EdmondDontes on July 11, 2022 8:28AM4 -
jtm1018✭✭✭✭✭Weaving is a skill, it is what seperate good players from great players. Casual players dont give a....
Anybody who wants to nerf weaving, in my personal opinion, just wants to drag the great players down to their level.
For the record, I can only do 40k dps on the iron attraunacs trial dummy.3 -
Rowjoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dumbing down the game even further for people who either dont have the time, or simply can't be bothered to practice and improve a perfectly normal 'hand to eye co-ordination' reaction to enhance their combat experience a little, is misguided thinking.
Those that can't LA weave for whatever reason should simply move on. It's not the end of your gaming world and the dumbing down, if it goes ahead, will not make any difference to you at all. It'll just punish and alienate those that can weave, who are in the majority.
Having a facility that allows players to enjoy a greater sense of progression and achievement in practicing and learning a reactionary ability, even though it only gives a relatively small increase in damage output, is one of the games few remaining great strengths.
And ZoS want to effectively remove it? And after 8 years?
Shame on you.
Edited by Rowjoh on July 11, 2022 9:10AM3 -
thorwyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭As @SeaGtGruff pointed out I am well aware of what it takes to prepare for end game content, and it is a lot of work. Work that I am not willing to do any longer because my main goal now is fun and relaxation.
I get your point and I don't have any problems with people who have different ideas of "having fun" than I do.
In my post, I mainly wanted to address the general stereotype: improving = work -> work = no fun -> improving = no fun. I am sick and tired of that logic for two reasons:
1. It usually comes with a "I am right (because I'm having fun), and you're doing it wrong" attitude. I'm having fun too!
2. It sometimes comes with the expectation that their way of playing needs to be buffed so they can play the same content and get the same trifectas and titles as the players who are commiting time to improve their game.And if the dam breaks open many years too soon
And if there is no room upon the hill
And if your head explodes with dark forebodings too
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon6 -
DagenHawk✭✭✭✭✭People are defensively throwing around "toxic casual" without having seen Nefas's video, I think. He wasn't saying that all casuals are toxic. Far from it. There is no animosity against casual players.
He uses "toxic casual" to refer to a specific type of player who is anti-elite in the same way some people are anti-intellectual.
As in, it's not enough for that person, as a casual player, to be uninterested in sweaty content. A toxic casual actively dislikes and is toxic toward players who ARE interested in that sort of content.
The point is that, yes, some elite players can be toxic when they insist everyone should play like them or go home, but some casuals can be just as toxic in the exact same way. And they often don't even realize they are doing it. That is what the video is about.
We can all coexist. Peace!
I'm all for co existing but... Toxic Casual doesn't exist period. It is an admitted made up term that the Mitanni invented. It is used so elitist can crybully their way into whatever they want.... if anyone complains they are a "Toxic Casual"...I think when some of the Content creators and their chats on Twitch and YouTube stops being Toxic (If the thread wouldn't get deleted I would show you stacks of Receipts ) we can start to coexist as soon as consequences begin to happen for attacks on marginalized people in ESO stream teams and chats when that happens we can start to coexist.Dumbing down the game even further for people who either dont have the time, or simply can't be bothered to practice and improve a perfectly normal 'hand to eye co-ordination' reaction to enhance their combat experience a little, is misguided thinking.
Those that can't LA weave for whatever reason should simply move on. It's not the end of your gaming world and the dumbing down, if it goes ahead, will not make any difference to you at all. It'll just punish and alienate those that can weave, who are in the majority.
Having a facility that allows players to enjoy a greater sense of progression and achievement in practicing and learning a reactionary ability, even though it only gives a relatively small increase in damage output, is one of the games few remaining great strengths.
And ZoS want to effectively remove it? And after 8 years?
Shame on you.
Hey at least you are honest and I respect that ....this is what the typical end game raider actually wants.
Edited by DagenHawk on July 11, 2022 12:05PM1 -
Pevey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭There is a whole lot to do in this game that doesn’t require any kind of combat skill. There is a segment of the game that does. If that segment is not for you, either due to lack of interest or physical limitations, does that mean it should not exist at all? Sure, toxic casual is a made-up term, as all terms are. And it is made up to describe someone who doesn’t want parts of the game to exist that other people enjoy.Edited by Pevey on July 11, 2022 12:06PM2 -
DagenHawk✭✭✭✭✭There is a whole lot to do in this game that doesn’t require any kind of combat skill. There is a segment of the game that does. If that segment is not for you, either due to lack of interest or physical limitations, does that mean it should not exist at all? Sure, toxic casual is a made-up term, as all terms are. And it is made up to describe someone who doesn’t want parts of the game to exist that other people enjoy.
Aside from one silly person on twitter (which many believe is a Troll from one of the Stream Team Sites) Who has said raiding shouldn't exist? I mean we have Raiders all the time on this forum telling Casuals to get out. Toxic Casual is more than made up...The Mitanni purposely coined it in his year of shenanigans to wage war on what he considered those who were watering down PVP. It was a purposeful flip....they do not exist except as a foil to crybully.1 -
SerafinaWaterstar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Dumbing down the game even further for people who either dont have the time, or simply can't be bothered to practice and improve a perfectly normal 'hand to eye co-ordination' reaction to enhance their combat experience a little, is misguided thinking.
Those that can't LA weave for whatever reason should simply move on. It's not the end of your gaming world and the dumbing down, if it goes ahead, will not make any difference to you at all. It'll just punish and alienate those that can weave, who are in the majority.
Having a facility that allows players to enjoy a greater sense of progression and achievement in practicing and learning a reactionary ability, even though it only gives a relatively small increase in damage output, is one of the games few remaining great strengths.
And ZoS want to effectively remove it? And after 8 years?
Shame on you.
Did you not read the posts above yours about those who have issues with this?
So they should just leave the game?
(Not going to say anymore as will get modded. Or banned.)
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Troodon80✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Toxic casual, while the term itself is made up, is derived from the known and documented negative effects of reinforcement and conditioning on behaviour. That might sound like it's getting into uncomfortable territory, but that's exactly what it is.I'm all for co existing but... Toxic Casual doesn't exist period. It is an admitted made up term that the Mitanni invented.
For example, when reinforcement has an aversive function, such as a person saying "all end game players are meta-chasers, filthy elitists who will try to dominate how you play the game, you should play how I do instead; I just have this build and it does just fine." Using a positive manta of playing how you want, but at the same time trying to drive home a message that someone else, or a subset of the game population, is evil or bad -- despite not even knowing them in any way and having never spoken to them.
The extremes do exist on both sides and no amount of denying it will make it not so.
@Troodon80 PC | EU
Guild: N&S
Hand of Alkosh | Dawnbringer | Immortal Redeemer | Tick Tock Tormentor | Gryphon Heart
Deep Dive into Dreadsail Reef Mechanics11 -
DagenHawk✭✭✭✭✭
Toxic casual, while the term itself is made up, is derived from the known and documented negative effects of reinforcement and conditioning on behaviour. That might sound like it's getting into uncomfortable territory, but that's exactly what it is.I'm all for co existing but... Toxic Casual doesn't exist period. It is an admitted made up term that the Mitanni invented.
For example, when reinforcement has an aversive function, such as a person saying "all end game players are meta-chasers, filthy elitists who will try to dominate how you play the game, you should play how I do instead; I just have this build and it does just fine." Using a positive manta of playing how you want, but at the same time trying to drive home a message that someone else, or a subset of the game population, is evil or bad -- despite not even knowing them in any way and having never spoken to them.
The extremes do exist on both sides and no amount of denying it will make it not so.
I disagree...I have historical precedence with a well known gaming figure, saying that they are out there is sorta akin to saying Bigfoot is out there...he might be but labeling "Toxic Casual" as so often meta chasers do on virtually anything does not make it so.
"If I label you that that is what you are" is not a good argument.
Also I witness first hand end game players telling Casuals to get out on this forum On Twitch and On YouTube as I said beside one silly person I don't see Casual players doing that to End gamer Raiders.
Edited by DagenHawk on July 11, 2022 1:17PM0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don't know, someone arguing people like me should be banned for having more DPS than them while farming the same boss as them qualifies to me.
I don't think that asking for balance changes should be labeled as toxic casual behavior, because quite frankly the ceiling does need to be lowered. The people doing endgame content is always a low population to begin with but ESO manages to not even have the population of other games. And you see complaints all the time about the game being dead in Craglorn. I also see people who can raid being unable to because they can't find enough people to fill their group. That's a problem that can only be fixed by making the ceiling lower. So that more people can join.
But, to say it doesn't exist at all? Toxicity can come from everywhere.7 -
W0lf_z13✭✭✭✭✭
✭def agree with OP .... I started the game back in 2015 didnt actually start learning dps till i started pushing for higher numbers roughly (2/2.5 years ago) .... and i didnt learn that through the game.... I learned it through youtube.... through content creators.... within the last 2 years i went from 70k dps up to ( as of last patch ) 130k dps (down to 123k with this last patch). The game should really have some kind of training within it... though... im not sure how many new players would do the training or just skip it.Edited by W0lf_z13 on July 11, 2022 1:24PMBreton Nightblade ~ Fang of the Wolf ~ (50) | Altmer Dragonknight ~ Ðårk Ŵølf ~ (50) | Altmer Necro ~ Ðeåth Ŵølf ~ (50)
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TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I can say with perfect truth that I play to have fun, my way, and I'm not the least bit interested in dungeons and trials, having burned myself out forever on that a decade ago. So for me, the rest of you can do whatever you want to do, and you don't need to worry about whether I'm going to crybaby over it.
I don't know if this change is going to be good for some, or bad for everyone. And since PTS drops today (I think?), I guess some of you will be seeing the changes firsthand, shortly.
At the point at which the changes (whatever they wind up as) enter the game, I'll deal with whatever happens. I'm flexible. Always have been, always will be (kind of hard to flex around 999+ ping, but I manage more or less).______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
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