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Vampire Skill Line and Blood Scion Ultimate
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Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »I had an idea for how the existing system could be enhanced to feel powerful, remove Strike from Shadows as it cannot be procced easily by a lot of builds, instead replace it with the Stage 4 Passive Unnatural Movement (Your weaker stages will be the running and hiding stages where as the stronger stages will be about combat)
Stage 1: Dark Stalker Remains the Same
Stage 2: Unnatural Movement Remains the Same but Moved to Stage 2 from Stage 4
Stage 3: Undeath Remains the Same
Stage 4: Blood Frenzy Increase weapon and spell damage by 60 points for 10 seconds whenever you kill a creature, this effect can stack 5 times up to 300 Weapon and Spell damage
The existing Blood Frenzy ability would be replaced by the following ability.
Blood Swarm The Vampire commands a Swarm of Bats in the targeted area for 8 seconds that deal XXX damage every second, the swarm grows in strength increasing in damage by 50% for every enemy in the swarm up to a maximum of 250%
Morph 1: Empowering Swarm Now applies Minor magickasteal and Minor lifesteal to targets within the Swarm.
Morph 2: Razor Swarm Now applies Major Breach to targets within the Swarm
The Mist Form ability will be completely altered so it works again in PvE and is less OP in PvP and become as ZOS insists it is, an escape ability.
Mist Form Applies Major Expedition, Major Protection and grants immunity to Snares and Immobilizations
Morph 1: Shadow Mist After the Mist Effects ends gain 300 weapon and spell damage for 3 seconds.
Morph 2: Regenerating Mist Recover 300 Health and Stamina every second while in Mist Form.
The Perfect Scion morph is viewed by many as a useless morph, however just looking at it as a morph makes you forget how powerful the ultimate it is attached to really is, so why not make it that in addition to it's existing effects it also allows you to stay transformed for 30 seconds up from 20 seconds
Your Mist Form suggestion is not gonna work out. Why would you slot Mist Form for Major Expedition and Major Protection if you can slot Revealing Flare for permanent passive Major Protection at no cost without needing to be vampire. It's just not worth making yourself unable to attack and use other skills just to gain Major Protection and Expedition - oh and does Mist Form still negate allied healing in your suggestion?
Mist Form should half it's mitigation for PvE and gain the rest of it as mitigation against player damage. Problem solved and the skill is useful again. That way it is comparable to Meditate + Psijic passives.
The rest of your suggestions are fine.
Then why not make it a unique 50% speed buff, the major protection would just be a bonus effect, this rendition of Mist form would be an Escape move not a tanking move, if you try to tank with this you will get killed.
That certainly sounds interesting. I am not looking forward to a ball group running at 50% increased speed, but this definitely sounds useful even without the high mitigation, especially if you keep the cc immunity of current mist form.
The question is just how this will be handled with the speed cap. Will a Bosmer with swift jewelry and major expedition even get any use out of this? Or will people drop swift jewelry and slot this instead? Definitely something that would have to be tested.Edited by Ratzkifal on June 29, 2022 3:15PMThis Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.0 -
Freelancer_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »I had an idea for how the existing system could be enhanced to feel powerful, remove Strike from Shadows as it cannot be procced easily by a lot of builds, instead replace it with the Stage 4 Passive Unnatural Movement (Your weaker stages will be the running and hiding stages where as the stronger stages will be about combat)
Stage 1: Dark Stalker Remains the Same
Stage 2: Unnatural Movement Remains the Same but Moved to Stage 2 from Stage 4
Stage 3: Undeath Remains the Same
Stage 4: Blood Frenzy Increase weapon and spell damage by 60 points for 10 seconds whenever you kill a creature, this effect can stack 5 times up to 300 Weapon and Spell damage
The existing Blood Frenzy ability would be replaced by the following ability.
Blood Swarm The Vampire commands a Swarm of Bats in the targeted area for 8 seconds that deal XXX damage every second, the swarm grows in strength increasing in damage by 50% for every enemy in the swarm up to a maximum of 250%
Morph 1: Empowering Swarm Now applies Minor magickasteal and Minor lifesteal to targets within the Swarm.
Morph 2: Razor Swarm Now applies Major Breach to targets within the Swarm
The Mist Form ability will be completely altered so it works again in PvE and is less OP in PvP and become as ZOS insists it is, an escape ability.
Mist Form Applies Major Expedition, Major Protection and grants immunity to Snares and Immobilizations
Morph 1: Shadow Mist After the Mist Effects ends gain 300 weapon and spell damage for 3 seconds.
Morph 2: Regenerating Mist Recover 300 Health and Stamina every second while in Mist Form.
The Perfect Scion morph is viewed by many as a useless morph, however just looking at it as a morph makes you forget how powerful the ultimate it is attached to really is, so why not make it that in addition to it's existing effects it also allows you to stay transformed for 30 seconds up from 20 seconds
While I still prefer my take on the vampire, I like your version too, as long as they remove the negative regeneration.
The negative regeneration makes sense conceptually - as your vampiric powers grow, your mortal powers become more taxing. The problem is that pretty much all our powers are mortal, and the vampiric ones that could replace them suck. So I'd prefer if they first made all the skills fun and effective to use before axing the whole regeneration concept.
As for diminished health regen, that has been part of TES Vampires at least in Daggerfall and Morrowind, so I don't see why you'd say it doesn't make sense. At least we don't get sun damage while walking in daylight, lol.
What I would have done in regards to healing, is to make the Ring of the Pale Order effect a base passive for Vampires. Frankly I felt it was a damn insult that it was added the same patch as the Vampire overhaul.
So your "natural" health regeneration (and possibly healing received) is diminished, and you have to deal damage i.e. draw blood to heal yourself effectively. That would make sense conceptually for TES Vampires, not this backwards way where they have us spend health to deal damage.
I wonder where in the vampires of Morrowind, Oblivion or Skyrim say they don't regenerate health. ONLY in Skyrim you can regenerate health naturally, and even if the vampires have disabled regeneration WHILE IT'S DAYTIME, they also have no stamina or Magicka regeneration...BUT WAIT, there's more; Not only you're not talking about the same disease(cause you are talking about SANGUINAE VAMPIRIS, and this is NOXIPHILIA SANGUIVORIA), but it is actually stated that vampires don't suffer negatives during daytime, but instead become super powerful during the night.
"If it is contracted, the blood of uninfected specimens is required for sustenance. Unlike those infected with Sanguinare Vampiris, for example, victims of Noxiphilic Sanguivoria are not weakened or otherwise harmed by sunlight; and they are instead strengthened during the night. As such, their regenerative abilities are greatly enhanced at night, and they become immensely courageous and resistant to pain during the darker hours"
In Morrowind, as a Vampire, you can't regenerate health by sleeping or resting - which would be the normal way to regenerate health for mortals in that game, outside of potions and spells.
Of course, that's PORPHYRIC HEMOPHILIA. Each game has it's own strain because they are all a bit different mechanically, but there is precedent in TES for Vampires to have diffiulty regenerating health. It's not nonsensical per se is what I'm saying.
In ESO, all the original texts that describe Vampirism are kind of obsolete since the overhaul, for example there are no longer any drawbacks or bonuses depending on the time of day.
Only in Morrowind you suffer that, so I was wrong in that part, I didn't quite remember well, but in oblivion it has no effects in that department, and in Skyrim you can't regenerate only in daytime, you can do anything the rest of the time.
In all honestly, it's also just bad design to handicap the players in such a mechanical way. Life regen is a Quality of life feature, not an advanced combat feature. I doubt anyone would argue that health regen is overpowered in any way. Vamp has too many negatives, and too few positives to bring into the table. It's state is pitiful, it's only a tool for PvP, and something like vampirism should be more flavorful instead of a tool for PvP that also denies you any content outside of it for that character.
Also, the book might be dated, but they haven't changed it at all, and the old vampires also had negative regeneration. Nothing really changed, besides ZMO eliminating the saving grace passive of vampires, the ability to regenerate while in tier 4.
Technically, I think Daggerfall also had you be unable to regen via sleeping if you didn't feed.
If you stack health regen, it can be quite powerful. One of the things they changed in the past with Battlespirit was to make it reduce your health regen more.
1 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »I had an idea for how the existing system could be enhanced to feel powerful, remove Strike from Shadows as it cannot be procced easily by a lot of builds, instead replace it with the Stage 4 Passive Unnatural Movement (Your weaker stages will be the running and hiding stages where as the stronger stages will be about combat)
Stage 1: Dark Stalker Remains the Same
Stage 2: Unnatural Movement Remains the Same but Moved to Stage 2 from Stage 4
Stage 3: Undeath Remains the Same
Stage 4: Blood Frenzy Increase weapon and spell damage by 60 points for 10 seconds whenever you kill a creature, this effect can stack 5 times up to 300 Weapon and Spell damage
The existing Blood Frenzy ability would be replaced by the following ability.
Blood Swarm The Vampire commands a Swarm of Bats in the targeted area for 8 seconds that deal XXX damage every second, the swarm grows in strength increasing in damage by 50% for every enemy in the swarm up to a maximum of 250%
Morph 1: Empowering Swarm Now applies Minor magickasteal and Minor lifesteal to targets within the Swarm.
Morph 2: Razor Swarm Now applies Major Breach to targets within the Swarm
The Mist Form ability will be completely altered so it works again in PvE and is less OP in PvP and become as ZOS insists it is, an escape ability.
Mist Form Applies Major Expedition, Major Protection and grants immunity to Snares and Immobilizations
Morph 1: Shadow Mist After the Mist Effects ends gain 300 weapon and spell damage for 3 seconds.
Morph 2: Regenerating Mist Recover 300 Health and Stamina every second while in Mist Form.
The Perfect Scion morph is viewed by many as a useless morph, however just looking at it as a morph makes you forget how powerful the ultimate it is attached to really is, so why not make it that in addition to it's existing effects it also allows you to stay transformed for 30 seconds up from 20 seconds
While I still prefer my take on the vampire, I like your version too, as long as they remove the negative regeneration.
The negative regeneration makes sense conceptually - as your vampiric powers grow, your mortal powers become more taxing. The problem is that pretty much all our powers are mortal, and the vampiric ones that could replace them suck. So I'd prefer if they first made all the skills fun and effective to use before axing the whole regeneration concept.
As for diminished health regen, that has been part of TES Vampires at least in Daggerfall and Morrowind, so I don't see why you'd say it doesn't make sense. At least we don't get sun damage while walking in daylight, lol.
What I would have done in regards to healing, is to make the Ring of the Pale Order effect a base passive for Vampires. Frankly I felt it was a damn insult that it was added the same patch as the Vampire overhaul.
So your "natural" health regeneration (and possibly healing received) is diminished, and you have to deal damage i.e. draw blood to heal yourself effectively. That would make sense conceptually for TES Vampires, not this backwards way where they have us spend health to deal damage.
I wonder where in the vampires of Morrowind, Oblivion or Skyrim say they don't regenerate health. ONLY in Skyrim you can regenerate health naturally, and even if the vampires have disabled regeneration WHILE IT'S DAYTIME, they also have no stamina or Magicka regeneration...BUT WAIT, there's more; Not only you're not talking about the same disease(cause you are talking about SANGUINAE VAMPIRIS, and this is NOXIPHILIA SANGUIVORIA), but it is actually stated that vampires don't suffer negatives during daytime, but instead become super powerful during the night.
"If it is contracted, the blood of uninfected specimens is required for sustenance. Unlike those infected with Sanguinare Vampiris, for example, victims of Noxiphilic Sanguivoria are not weakened or otherwise harmed by sunlight; and they are instead strengthened during the night. As such, their regenerative abilities are greatly enhanced at night, and they become immensely courageous and resistant to pain during the darker hours"
In Morrowind, as a Vampire, you can't regenerate health by sleeping or resting - which would be the normal way to regenerate health for mortals in that game, outside of potions and spells.
Of course, that's PORPHYRIC HEMOPHILIA. Each game has it's own strain because they are all a bit different mechanically, but there is precedent in TES for Vampires to have diffiulty regenerating health. It's not nonsensical per se is what I'm saying.
In ESO, all the original texts that describe Vampirism are kind of obsolete since the overhaul, for example there are no longer any drawbacks or bonuses depending on the time of day.
Only in Morrowind you suffer that, so I was wrong in that part, I didn't quite remember well, but in oblivion it has no effects in that department, and in Skyrim you can't regenerate only in daytime, you can do anything the rest of the time.
In all honestly, it's also just bad design to handicap the players in such a mechanical way. Life regen is a Quality of life feature, not an advanced combat feature. I doubt anyone would argue that health regen is overpowered in any way. Vamp has too many negatives, and too few positives to bring into the table. It's state is pitiful, it's only a tool for PvP, and something like vampirism should be more flavorful instead of a tool for PvP that also denies you any content outside of it for that character.
Also, the book might be dated, but they haven't changed it at all, and the old vampires also had negative regeneration. Nothing really changed, besides ZMO eliminating the saving grace passive of vampires, the ability to regenerate while in tier 4.
You would be surprised. We were in a health regen meta back when these changes were made. The strategy was to recover more health than the enemy could deal damage past your mitigation as we were also in a very dot heavy meta damage-wise. As a sidenote, we only slipped into a health recovery meta because defile uptimes were lowered.
I do not really mind the health recovery downside but your skills should make up for it. You should be healing more from your vampire skills as a trade-off to having no health recovery. Thankfully they at least changed it recently so that feeding on an NPC gets you back to full health now, which is only useful at stage 4 but also only really needed at stage 4 as well.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.1 -
Kurague✭✭✭chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »I had an idea for how the existing system could be enhanced to feel powerful, remove Strike from Shadows as it cannot be procced easily by a lot of builds, instead replace it with the Stage 4 Passive Unnatural Movement (Your weaker stages will be the running and hiding stages where as the stronger stages will be about combat)
Stage 1: Dark Stalker Remains the Same
Stage 2: Unnatural Movement Remains the Same but Moved to Stage 2 from Stage 4
Stage 3: Undeath Remains the Same
Stage 4: Blood Frenzy Increase weapon and spell damage by 60 points for 10 seconds whenever you kill a creature, this effect can stack 5 times up to 300 Weapon and Spell damage
The existing Blood Frenzy ability would be replaced by the following ability.
Blood Swarm The Vampire commands a Swarm of Bats in the targeted area for 8 seconds that deal XXX damage every second, the swarm grows in strength increasing in damage by 50% for every enemy in the swarm up to a maximum of 250%
Morph 1: Empowering Swarm Now applies Minor magickasteal and Minor lifesteal to targets within the Swarm.
Morph 2: Razor Swarm Now applies Major Breach to targets within the Swarm
The Mist Form ability will be completely altered so it works again in PvE and is less OP in PvP and become as ZOS insists it is, an escape ability.
Mist Form Applies Major Expedition, Major Protection and grants immunity to Snares and Immobilizations
Morph 1: Shadow Mist After the Mist Effects ends gain 300 weapon and spell damage for 3 seconds.
Morph 2: Regenerating Mist Recover 300 Health and Stamina every second while in Mist Form.
The Perfect Scion morph is viewed by many as a useless morph, however just looking at it as a morph makes you forget how powerful the ultimate it is attached to really is, so why not make it that in addition to it's existing effects it also allows you to stay transformed for 30 seconds up from 20 seconds
While I still prefer my take on the vampire, I like your version too, as long as they remove the negative regeneration.
The negative regeneration makes sense conceptually - as your vampiric powers grow, your mortal powers become more taxing. The problem is that pretty much all our powers are mortal, and the vampiric ones that could replace them suck. So I'd prefer if they first made all the skills fun and effective to use before axing the whole regeneration concept.
As for diminished health regen, that has been part of TES Vampires at least in Daggerfall and Morrowind, so I don't see why you'd say it doesn't make sense. At least we don't get sun damage while walking in daylight, lol.
What I would have done in regards to healing, is to make the Ring of the Pale Order effect a base passive for Vampires. Frankly I felt it was a damn insult that it was added the same patch as the Vampire overhaul.
So your "natural" health regeneration (and possibly healing received) is diminished, and you have to deal damage i.e. draw blood to heal yourself effectively. That would make sense conceptually for TES Vampires, not this backwards way where they have us spend health to deal damage.
I wonder where in the vampires of Morrowind, Oblivion or Skyrim say they don't regenerate health. ONLY in Skyrim you can regenerate health naturally, and even if the vampires have disabled regeneration WHILE IT'S DAYTIME, they also have no stamina or Magicka regeneration...BUT WAIT, there's more; Not only you're not talking about the same disease(cause you are talking about SANGUINAE VAMPIRIS, and this is NOXIPHILIA SANGUIVORIA), but it is actually stated that vampires don't suffer negatives during daytime, but instead become super powerful during the night.
"If it is contracted, the blood of uninfected specimens is required for sustenance. Unlike those infected with Sanguinare Vampiris, for example, victims of Noxiphilic Sanguivoria are not weakened or otherwise harmed by sunlight; and they are instead strengthened during the night. As such, their regenerative abilities are greatly enhanced at night, and they become immensely courageous and resistant to pain during the darker hours"
In Morrowind, as a Vampire, you can't regenerate health by sleeping or resting - which would be the normal way to regenerate health for mortals in that game, outside of potions and spells.
Of course, that's PORPHYRIC HEMOPHILIA. Each game has it's own strain because they are all a bit different mechanically, but there is precedent in TES for Vampires to have diffiulty regenerating health. It's not nonsensical per se is what I'm saying.
In ESO, all the original texts that describe Vampirism are kind of obsolete since the overhaul, for example there are no longer any drawbacks or bonuses depending on the time of day.
Only in Morrowind you suffer that, so I was wrong in that part, I didn't quite remember well, but in oblivion it has no effects in that department, and in Skyrim you can't regenerate only in daytime, you can do anything the rest of the time.
In all honestly, it's also just bad design to handicap the players in such a mechanical way. Life regen is a Quality of life feature, not an advanced combat feature. I doubt anyone would argue that health regen is overpowered in any way. Vamp has too many negatives, and too few positives to bring into the table. It's state is pitiful, it's only a tool for PvP, and something like vampirism should be more flavorful instead of a tool for PvP that also denies you any content outside of it for that character.
Also, the book might be dated, but they haven't changed it at all, and the old vampires also had negative regeneration. Nothing really changed, besides ZMO eliminating the saving grace passive of vampires, the ability to regenerate while in tier 4.
Technically, I think Daggerfall also had you be unable to regen via sleeping if you didn't feed.
If you stack health regen, it can be quite powerful. One of the things they changed in the past with Battlespirit was to make it reduce your health regen more.
So, they don't want to nerf health regen overall cause of a skill cause of the effect on PvE, but they make Vampire stage 4 *** cause of it without thinking of the consecuences of not regaining even a slight shiver of passive health in PvE. Consistent.0 -
OBJnoob✭✭✭✭✭
✭People grind fighters guild for one skill and/or passive. Mages guild. Psijic. I mean its just the way it is... People like to min max so they take what they need but don't use the rest. I don't see why every vamp skill and passive needs to be slottable.
Everybody wants to compare vamp with ww but I'm not so sure they should be compared. Werewolf is like oakensoul only more restrictive... Not only do you only have one bar but you can only slot ww skills.
So ww skills have to be better than vamp skills. Because vampires can still use everything else too. Which is why the allure for being vampire is almost entirely in the passives. Because if the skills got buffed to be even with or better than class skills we'd all freak out.
So by all means, ask for whatever buffs you want, but let's not act like "omg I can't do anything as a vamp," cuz actually you can still do everything.
0 -
Kurague✭✭✭People grind fighters guild for one skill and/or passive. Mages guild. Psijic. I mean its just the way it is... People like to min max so they take what they need but don't use the rest. I don't see why every vamp skill and passive needs to be slottable.
Everybody wants to compare vamp with ww but I'm not so sure they should be compared. Werewolf is like oakensoul only more restrictive... Not only do you only have one bar but you can only slot ww skills.
So ww skills have to be better than vamp skills. Because vampires can still use everything else too. Which is why the allure for being vampire is almost entirely in the passives. Because if the skills got buffed to be even with or better than class skills we'd all freak out.
So by all means, ask for whatever buffs you want, but let's not act like "omg I can't do anything as a vamp," cuz actually you can still do everything.
Everything except regenerate health or be useful outside of PvP0 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭People grind fighters guild for one skill and/or passive. Mages guild. Psijic. I mean its just the way it is... People like to min max so they take what they need but don't use the rest. I don't see why every vamp skill and passive needs to be slottable.
Everybody wants to compare vamp with ww but I'm not so sure they should be compared. Werewolf is like oakensoul only more restrictive... Not only do you only have one bar but you can only slot ww skills.
So ww skills have to be better than vamp skills. Because vampires can still use everything else too. Which is why the allure for being vampire is almost entirely in the passives. Because if the skills got buffed to be even with or better than class skills we'd all freak out.
So by all means, ask for whatever buffs you want, but let's not act like "omg I can't do anything as a vamp," cuz actually you can still do everything.
The problem with the vampire-werewolf comparisons is that ZOS themselves keep making them.
Vampire and werewolves are mutually exclusive options, so naturally there will be some comparison between them and if one becomes popular it is usually at the detriment of the other. So far so expected.
ZOS however designed the vampire kit around using as many vampire skills as possible by increasing regular skill costs as a detriment to being a vampire while decreasing vampire skill cost, yet vampire skills cannot stand on their own two legs like werewolf's can, because the werewolf kit was actually designed to work that way while vampirism wasn't. As of right now, vampirism is halfbaked.
Vampirism would have to have a spammable, a gap closer, healing, self buffs, an AOE damage over time and an overarching theme if you wanted people to focus solely on vampirism skills by introducing a cost increase to regular skills. The way it is now even a player who is trying to go as much into vampirism as possible cannot make it work with just vampirism skills alone, so that is a stupid downside for vampirism to have. What Necromancer became worse at Necromancy after turning into a vampire?!
It makes no sense and should be changed. I think vampirism needs to work with your class and not against it, even if there should be downsides to it so you cannot simply sleep on vampirism like you used to. Unlike werewolf vampirism should be an add-on to your class, not a replacement! Thus it needs to provide things not everyone has access to, like a ranged spammable, an execute, a gap closer and unique utility.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.4 -
OBJnoob✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Ratzkifal Hmm. Well, I’m not sure what to say. I think you made two excellent points. I suppose I was wrong in what I said last.
I do still want to caution people that you can’t make it SO good that everybody suddenly needs to be one. Because that’s the way it was and that’s why it isn’t as good anymore. Also, let’s not pretend “pve” only means vet dungeons and trials. Vampire is viable, even helpful, for plenty of things in eso. And not too long ago weren’t the best trial group dps running it with the toggle? Even solo players doing vet arenas toggling to keep their health low, using arterial burst to spam, and healing with ring of the pale order? Or maybe you just want to do some dark brotherhood… or go through that delve to get the sky’s hard but you don’t want to fight everything.Edited by OBJnoob on June 29, 2022 10:44PM1 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Hmm. Well, I’m not sure what to say. I think you made two excellent points. I suppose I was wrong in what I said last.
I do still want to caution people that you can’t make it SO good that everybody suddenly needs to be one. Because that’s the way it was and that’s why it isn’t as good anymore. Also, let’s not pretend “pve” only means vet dungeons and trials. Vampire is viable, even helpful, for plenty of things in eso. And not too long ago weren’t the best trial group dps running it with the toggle? Even solo players doing vet arenas toggling to keep their health low, using arterial burst to spam, and healing with ring of the pale order? Or maybe you just want to do some dark brotherhood… or go through that delve to get the sky’s hard but you don’t want to fight everything.
Agreed, it shouldn't be so good that the alternatives pale in comparison. What it should do is change around how you approach a regular build without raising the ceiling of what is possible so to speak. That's exactly why I think rather than having more powerful abilities, vampire should offer skills that not every class has access too.- A ranged magicka spammable other than force pulse and a melee stamina spammable for sorcerers, DKs, necros and wardens.
- An execute skill for DKs, Wardens and Necros.
- A gapcloser for Necros and Wardens.
- Unique utility spells for every one
This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.0 -
Kurague✭✭✭@Ratzkifal Hmm. Well, I’m not sure what to say. I think you made two excellent points. I suppose I was wrong in what I said last.
I do still want to caution people that you can’t make it SO good that everybody suddenly needs to be one. Because that’s the way it was and that’s why it isn’t as good anymore. Also, let’s not pretend “pve” only means vet dungeons and trials. Vampire is viable, even helpful, for plenty of things in eso. And not too long ago weren’t the best trial group dps running it with the toggle? Even solo players doing vet arenas toggling to keep their health low, using arterial burst to spam, and healing with ring of the pale order? Or maybe you just want to do some dark brotherhood… or go through that delve to get the sky’s hard but you don’t want to fight everything.
Well, you said it yourself, let's not pretend PvE only means Dungeons and Vet trials. I don't want to pop a healing skill every time a random creature or a cliff takes away 1k health. It's dumb, unfun, and it's straight up bad design, since it's not a gimmick, no one enjoys it.1 -
Kalitas✭✭✭@Ratzkifal Hmm. Well, I’m not sure what to say. I think you made two excellent points. I suppose I was wrong in what I said last.
I do still want to caution people that you can’t make it SO good that everybody suddenly needs to be one. Because that’s the way it was and that’s why it isn’t as good anymore. Also, let’s not pretend “pve” only means vet dungeons and trials. Vampire is viable, even helpful, for plenty of things in eso. And not too long ago weren’t the best trial group dps running it with the toggle? Even solo players doing vet arenas toggling to keep their health low, using arterial burst to spam, and healing with ring of the pale order? Or maybe you just want to do some dark brotherhood… or go through that delve to get the sky’s hard but you don’t want to fight everything.
I would love for vampire to be better in vet dungeons and trials though. Not to the point where score pushers are using it to cheese mechanics like we saw. It would be great if mist form was useful in PVE again though. That feels like a real bad band-aid fix. Vamp would really benefit from a gap close mechanic and a way to stay in scion form longer somehow. I wouldn’t hate an AOE ability either. I’m not sure if there is some sort of limit to the amount of abilities skill lines can have. I don’t see why they don’t just add more vampire abilities to make the drawbacks worth it so we can tune vampire to our classes.@Kevin-G | Ajani | Wü-Tang Clan0 -
Kurague✭✭✭@Ratzkifal Hmm. Well, I’m not sure what to say. I think you made two excellent points. I suppose I was wrong in what I said last.
I do still want to caution people that you can’t make it SO good that everybody suddenly needs to be one. Because that’s the way it was and that’s why it isn’t as good anymore. Also, let’s not pretend “pve” only means vet dungeons and trials. Vampire is viable, even helpful, for plenty of things in eso. And not too long ago weren’t the best trial group dps running it with the toggle? Even solo players doing vet arenas toggling to keep their health low, using arterial burst to spam, and healing with ring of the pale order? Or maybe you just want to do some dark brotherhood… or go through that delve to get the sky’s hard but you don’t want to fight everything.
I would love for vampire to be better in vet dungeons and trials though. Not to the point where score pushers are using it to cheese mechanics like we saw. It would be great if mist form was useful in PVE again though. That feels like a real bad band-aid fix. Vamp would really benefit from a gap close mechanic and a way to stay in scion form longer somehow. I wouldn’t hate an AOE ability either. I’m not sure if there is some sort of limit to the amount of abilities skill lines can have. I don’t see why they don’t just add more vampire abilities to make the drawbacks worth it so we can tune vampire to our classes.
Sadly, I don't think we'll see these positive changes...One can only hope.2 -
Kalitas✭✭✭@Ratzkifal Hmm. Well, I’m not sure what to say. I think you made two excellent points. I suppose I was wrong in what I said last.
I do still want to caution people that you can’t make it SO good that everybody suddenly needs to be one. Because that’s the way it was and that’s why it isn’t as good anymore. Also, let’s not pretend “pve” only means vet dungeons and trials. Vampire is viable, even helpful, for plenty of things in eso. And not too long ago weren’t the best trial group dps running it with the toggle? Even solo players doing vet arenas toggling to keep their health low, using arterial burst to spam, and healing with ring of the pale order? Or maybe you just want to do some dark brotherhood… or go through that delve to get the sky’s hard but you don’t want to fight everything.
I would love for vampire to be better in vet dungeons and trials though. Not to the point where score pushers are using it to cheese mechanics like we saw. It would be great if mist form was useful in PVE again though. That feels like a real bad band-aid fix. Vamp would really benefit from a gap close mechanic and a way to stay in scion form longer somehow. I wouldn’t hate an AOE ability either. I’m not sure if there is some sort of limit to the amount of abilities skill lines can have. I don’t see why they don’t just add more vampire abilities to make the drawbacks worth it so we can tune vampire to our classes.
Sadly, I don't think we'll see these positive changes...One can only hope.
One way we can make it clear this is something we want is to keep discussing it
@Kevin-G | Ajani | Wü-Tang Clan0 -
Alexium✭✭✭I was happier at Greymoor release. New cool powers! Of course its was unfinished, but I hoped to new patches. Now I feel the vampire skill line is nerfed to some normal values. I can understand the reason of it. We all play in MMO not singleplayer game. Though I don't want accept that changes... Expecially the Mist Form nerf. It was cool skill for solo player like me.
BTW some latest changes are good. Healing from feeding? Nice! It was long awaited thing for me. Decreased dangerous of Blood Frenzy? Nice! But... Never mind. This skill too "flat" now. IMHO.
I don't hope to any changes in future. Some time interests of Devs and majority of players can going the way that I not want. It is the life.1 -
WinterHeart626✭✭✭✭Just saw this, and can quite readily agree vamp is half baked as a skill line.
I had a choice between the two, I chose werewolf, because who doesn’t like a beast that can self heal, smack mobs about, close distances, do a conical damage swipe with more self heal and a howl for stun?
I looked at vamp and thought, why do I want to make my toon weaker in PVE.
Even with max mag and low Stam, since the hybridisation became a thing, werewolf hits hard, AND spams self heals
Vampire…… ah, doesn’t exactly do any of that, oh, and makes my skills MORE expensive whilst contributing nothing to my gameplay. Sure for role play, that’s awesome, vamp out, for PVE content, even in places where people don’t want you to wolf out, you’re still doing something.
I know drawing comparisons isn’t a good thing, because this is this, that is that, but when you’re stacking on negatives with no positives, that’s not something people are going to want, it’s just bad design.3 -
Kalitas✭✭✭WinterHeart626 wrote: »Just saw this, and can quite readily agree vamp is half baked as a skill line.
I had a choice between the two, I chose werewolf, because who doesn’t like a beast that can self heal, smack mobs about, close distances, do a conical damage swipe with more self heal and a howl for stun?
I looked at vamp and thought, why do I want to make my toon weaker in PVE.
Even with max mag and low Stam, since the hybridisation became a thing, werewolf hits hard, AND spams self heals
Vampire…… ah, doesn’t exactly do any of that, oh, and makes my skills MORE expensive whilst contributing nothing to my gameplay. Sure for role play, that’s awesome, vamp out, for PVE content, even in places where people don’t want you to wolf out, you’re still doing something.
I know drawing comparisons isn’t a good thing, because this is this, that is that, but when you’re stacking on negatives with no positives, that’s not something people are going to want, it’s just bad design.
That last point is a very good one. When you make something more painful than it is fun or strong, people aren't going to use it. That's kind of how I feel vampire is right now. I think an extremely cool vampire addition would be something like a blink. Turn into the swarm of bats and reappear somewhere else. Similar to what we saw in the story. Obviously this could be very strong but even giving it a small channel or something at the beginning would be great. If vampire is going to have drawbacks it needs to at least be strong enough to compensate around them with good play.@Kevin-G | Ajani | Wü-Tang Clan2 -
Kurague✭✭✭WinterHeart626 wrote: »Just saw this, and can quite readily agree vamp is half baked as a skill line.
I had a choice between the two, I chose werewolf, because who doesn’t like a beast that can self heal, smack mobs about, close distances, do a conical damage swipe with more self heal and a howl for stun?
I looked at vamp and thought, why do I want to make my toon weaker in PVE.
Even with max mag and low Stam, since the hybridisation became a thing, werewolf hits hard, AND spams self heals
Vampire…… ah, doesn’t exactly do any of that, oh, and makes my skills MORE expensive whilst contributing nothing to my gameplay. Sure for role play, that’s awesome, vamp out, for PVE content, even in places where people don’t want you to wolf out, you’re still doing something.
I know drawing comparisons isn’t a good thing, because this is this, that is that, but when you’re stacking on negatives with no positives, that’s not something people are going to want, it’s just bad design.
That last point is a very good one. When you make something more painful than it is fun or strong, people aren't going to use it. That's kind of how I feel vampire is right now. I think an extremely cool vampire addition would be something like a blink. Turn into the swarm of bats and reappear somewhere else. Similar to what we saw in the story. Obviously this could be very strong but even giving it a small channel or something at the beginning would be great. If vampire is going to have drawbacks it needs to at least be strong enough to compensate around them with good play.
The main Drawback of vampire is not healing. It doesn't let you regenerate in world content, so it's annoying cause it takes away your Quality of life, and not only that but you also can't get healed by your healer if you use your spammable. Makes no sense.
I couldn't care less about PvP, make the vampires different in PvP, but in normal world content, I want to be able to heal anmd be useful, and combine my skills with vampire skills. If I wanted a full class overhaul, I would have gone Werewolf.5 -
Thecompton73✭✭✭✭✭TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »Thecompton73 wrote: »TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »I had an idea for how the existing system could be enhanced to feel powerful, remove Strike from Shadows as it cannot be procced easily by a lot of builds, instead replace it with the Stage 4 Passive Unnatural Movement (Your weaker stages will be the running and hiding stages where as the stronger stages will be about combat)
Stage 1: Dark Stalker Remains the Same
Stage 2: Unnatural Movement Remains the Same but Moved to Stage 2 from Stage 4
Stage 3: Undeath Remains the Same
Stage 4: Blood Frenzy Increase weapon and spell damage by 60 points for 10 seconds whenever you kill a creature, this effect can stack 5 times up to 300 Weapon and Spell damage
The existing Blood Frenzy ability would be replaced by the following ability.
Blood Swarm The Vampire commands a Swarm of Bats in the targeted area for 8 seconds that deal XXX damage every second, the swarm grows in strength increasing in damage by 50% for every enemy in the swarm up to a maximum of 250%
Morph 1: Empowering Swarm Now applies Minor magickasteal and Minor lifesteal to targets within the Swarm.
Morph 2: Razor Swarm Now applies Major Breach to targets within the Swarm
The Mist Form ability will be completely altered so it works again in PvE and is less OP in PvP and become as ZOS insists it is, an escape ability.
Mist Form Applies Major Expedition, Major Protection and grants immunity to Snares and Immobilizations
Morph 1: Shadow Mist After the Mist Effects ends gain 300 weapon and spell damage for 3 seconds.
Morph 2: Regenerating Mist Recover 300 Health and Stamina every second while in Mist Form.
The Perfect Scion morph is viewed by many as a useless morph, however just looking at it as a morph makes you forget how powerful the ultimate it is attached to really is, so why not make it that in addition to it's existing effects it also allows you to stay transformed for 30 seconds up from 20 seconds
So you wanna make Vamp kill 5 enemies in less than 10 seconds to get the same amount of wd/sd you get now from making use of the stage 4 passive to get it in 3 seconds or instantly via cloak or an invisibility pot? No thanks
And how many classes can cloak?
Currently any class can use invisibility pots or run stage 4 vampire AND any class that's a vampire can already use any morph of Mist Form to get the WD/SD bump from the stage 2 passive.
Strike from the Shadows:
When you leave Sneak, invisibility, or Mist Form your Weapon and Spell Damage is increased by 300 for 6 seconds.1 -
Kurague✭✭✭Thecompton73 wrote: »TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »Thecompton73 wrote: »TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »I had an idea for how the existing system could be enhanced to feel powerful, remove Strike from Shadows as it cannot be procced easily by a lot of builds, instead replace it with the Stage 4 Passive Unnatural Movement (Your weaker stages will be the running and hiding stages where as the stronger stages will be about combat)
Stage 1: Dark Stalker Remains the Same
Stage 2: Unnatural Movement Remains the Same but Moved to Stage 2 from Stage 4
Stage 3: Undeath Remains the Same
Stage 4: Blood Frenzy Increase weapon and spell damage by 60 points for 10 seconds whenever you kill a creature, this effect can stack 5 times up to 300 Weapon and Spell damage
The existing Blood Frenzy ability would be replaced by the following ability.
Blood Swarm The Vampire commands a Swarm of Bats in the targeted area for 8 seconds that deal XXX damage every second, the swarm grows in strength increasing in damage by 50% for every enemy in the swarm up to a maximum of 250%
Morph 1: Empowering Swarm Now applies Minor magickasteal and Minor lifesteal to targets within the Swarm.
Morph 2: Razor Swarm Now applies Major Breach to targets within the Swarm
The Mist Form ability will be completely altered so it works again in PvE and is less OP in PvP and become as ZOS insists it is, an escape ability.
Mist Form Applies Major Expedition, Major Protection and grants immunity to Snares and Immobilizations
Morph 1: Shadow Mist After the Mist Effects ends gain 300 weapon and spell damage for 3 seconds.
Morph 2: Regenerating Mist Recover 300 Health and Stamina every second while in Mist Form.
The Perfect Scion morph is viewed by many as a useless morph, however just looking at it as a morph makes you forget how powerful the ultimate it is attached to really is, so why not make it that in addition to it's existing effects it also allows you to stay transformed for 30 seconds up from 20 seconds
So you wanna make Vamp kill 5 enemies in less than 10 seconds to get the same amount of wd/sd you get now from making use of the stage 4 passive to get it in 3 seconds or instantly via cloak or an invisibility pot? No thanks
And how many classes can cloak?
Currently any class can use invisibility pots or run stage 4 vampire AND any class that's a vampire can already use any morph of Mist Form to get the WD/SD bump from the stage 2 passive.
Strike from the Shadows:
When you leave Sneak, invisibility, or Mist Form your Weapon and Spell Damage is increased by 300 for 6 seconds.
I personally couldn't care less about the invisibility or it's buff, but I understand PvP players would be pissed if it got removed...That's why I want them to make PvP and PvE vamp and WW separate. [snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 3, 2022 10:06AM0 -
kashat✭✭
Completely agree with this. Also, health regen is a fairly useless stat now in PVP anyway. I don’t understand why it’s tied into Vampire at all anymore. In PVE health regen is barely used as well outside of casual uses.[/quote]
Well, I don't like to selfheal everytime the surface isnt 100% flat in pvp either.
So the healthregen is important in pvp too, like someone said... atleast 5-10% regen so we don't have to dismount all the time.2 -
Kurague✭✭✭
Completely agree with this. Also, health regen is a fairly useless stat now in PVP anyway. I don’t understand why it’s tied into Vampire at all anymore. In PVE health regen is barely used as well outside of casual uses.
Well, I don't like to selfheal everytime the surface isnt 100% flat in pvp either.
So the healthregen is important in pvp too, like someone said... atleast 5-10% regen so we don't have to dismount all the time.[/quote]
Yeah, having at least 10% to be able to keep going without dismounting or whatever would at least be decent.0 -
EozZoe1989✭✭✭vampire line is good why keep changing things instead leave as is and add more content in events .. more servers and why is the zenthear boxes,. not drouping from all world bosses... i thought was unlimeted... for the motifs and that..o.o gold box once a day bit motifs and that drop,, .. its changed and gone weird0 -
Kurague✭✭✭EozZoe1989 wrote: »vampire line is good why keep changing things instead leave as is and add more content in events .. more servers and why is the zenthear boxes,. not drouping from all world bosses... i thought was unlimeted... for the motifs and that..o.o gold box once a day bit motifs and that drop,, .. its changed and gone weird
First of all, vampire skill line is a Joke.
Also, I didn't understand 90% of your post.1 -
Browiseth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭i would personally change eviscerate into a DoT that deals bleed damage, to create a niche of a magicka costing skill that deals bleed damage, and change the "deals more damage the lower your health" into a HoTskingrad when zoscharacters:PC/NA but live in EU 150+ ping lyfe- EP - M - Strikes-with-Arcane - Argonian Stamina Sorc - lvl 50 - The Flawless Conqueror/Spirit Slayer
- EP - F - Melina Elinia - Dunmer Magicka Dragonknight - lvl 50
- EP - F - Sinnia Lavellan - Altmer Warden Healer - lvl 50
- EP - M - Follows-the-Arcane - Argonian Healer Sorcerer- lvl 50
- EP - F - Ashes-of-Arcane - Argonian Magicka Necromancer - lvl 50
- EP - M - Bolgrog the Sinh - Orc Stamina Dragonknight - lvl 50
- EP - F - Moonlight Maiden - Altmer Magicka Templar - lvl 50
- EP - F - Maxine Cauline - Breton Magicka Nightblade - lvl 50
- EP - M - Garrus Loridius - Imperial Stamina Templar - lvl 50
- EP - F - Jennifer Loridius - Imperial Necromancer tank - lvl 50
0 -
Feizao✭✭✭Personally not a fan of Scion ult (mainly aesthetic). I'd op for a non-transforming morph and/or able to regen ult.
Melee spammable feels a bit awkward when transformed. The 5m range is kinda deceptive as a larger body.
The mist form that deals damage/ heals could become a gap closer/blink like npc. healing % from damage done.
I use to be able to cloak and feed while in combat, I'd like that back pls.
Abilities aside, passive/incentive balance needs most improvement.
My health never reading 100% on its own after bar swapping can be annoying.
Cost increase to non-vamp abilities feels bad. I'd probably rather accept slight more flame damage as negative incentive. Flame damage is common enough to remind the player they're a vampire, without being present all the time.
Maybe introduce Major Lifesteal on Vampire to help with healing and group cohesionPS4 NA lsoSO4P
EP - Dark Elf - MagBlade Vamp
EP - Nord - Stam/MagDk
EP - Argonian - StamCro
EP - Nord - StamPlar/Hybrid Healer
AD - Khajit - StamBlade/Tank
AD - Khajit - StormSorc/Hybrid WW
DC - Breton - MagDen0 -
Castian✭✭✭I'm still waiting for Simmering Frenzy to unnerf so I can go back to vampire on my templar for fun.0
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ccfeeling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Zos better modify those skills which stop receive healing.
What a dumb idea that limited the development of vampire0 -
Kurague✭✭✭Zos better modify those skills which stop receive healing.
What a dumb idea that limited the development of vampire
ZMO should just give Vampire their regen back, but keep it off in PVP, keep the cloud 50% for PvP and 0% reduction for PvE, but make it so in PvE it gives you a 100% speed buff, besides all the immunity buffs.
This would make this skill a useful movement tool to escape sticky situations or whatever, without making the skill exploitable for tanking.
And, finally, make it so the skill that denies external healing only blocks 50/60/70/85% of healing depending on your vampirism stage. This would make vampire a decent class, but not Superb. For it to be superb, they'd have to implement the vampire rework I posted in the second comment, which allowed vampires to feel like vampires.1 -
Vakiri✭Imagine if the healing mist instead was a ground targeted teleport after perhaps a short delay, like you turn into a batswarm and Palpatine dash to the location of choice for a cost, removing all snares and immobilisations.0
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Anysra✭✭✭The only reason why I am still a Vampire is because of the red eyes.
Nothing seems to be great atm.
I'm just waiting for the Red Eye skin, when I get that I quit being a Vamp.Anysra Nur | Grim Arcanum
Arcanist / Necromancer0