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Vampire Skill Line and Blood Scion Ultimate
Kalitas
✭✭✭
I can’t imagine I’m the only one who still feels a little underwhelmed by this skill line. It has to be one of the worst in the game? I understand why mist was nerfed for PVE. I think a great idea for perfected scion would be to either let you regen ult while transformed or for there to be some way to extend your transformation while in combat/using skills. As it currently stands Werewolf feels much better designed overall. Vampire has a large draw from both the casual and competitive sides, I’m sure a lot of people would love some attention to the vampire skill line.
@Kevin-G | Ajani | Wü-Tang Clan
11
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Kurague✭✭✭Is that really your ONLY concern with the vampire skill line?
Well, let's see...
How about the fact that if instead of considering that everyone is a minmaxer or a PvP player only we consider that some people would like to have a vampire toon for general content and groups?
Yeah, let's start with that;
Tiers 1 to 3 are fine-ish(Not quite fine, but fine-ish). Skill line is a bit too slow to level up if you get bitten early in the game, you'll be stuck with 1 skill for like 20 levels. Personal experience. This should be addressed, since WW can literally be leveled up in about an hour.
First problem vampire has is it's absolutely counter intuitive and it's not lore-friendly.
Vampires, even if it sounds dumb, are more powerful when they don't feed in Elder Scrolls...But let's say for logic's convenience, we make it like it is now, the more you feed, the more powerful you are.
Raise your hands if you think Tier 4 is more powerful than even Tier 1...Anyone? Sure, it gives you "some bonuses", but the -100% life regen just stinks. Sure, "Chug a pot, drink with your skills, heal yourself", but having to take out my weapons every time I jump a small cliff that takes 1k of HP from me is just annoying and it doesn't really have a place. Tier 4 vampires feel like they're weaker than normal humans.
The second problem is the limitations they gave the vampire for healing; You only have 1 spam ability(Which deals about 10% more than any other normal spam ability), but it makes you unable to heal by external means, meaning YOU have to heal yourself if you're using it. This, paired with no health regen, just literally tanks the vampires out of any meaningful group content. Who would want a toon that plays like it's single player in group content?
The Blood Scion is alright, it just needs some more duration, since, unlike the WW, it can't extend it's transformation. Maybe making it so when the Blood Scion KILLS something when it drinks blood with it's healing ability it regains a % of transformation like the werewolf would be a nice solution to that.
The second step to fixing vampires is the regeneration negatives;
Switch around those negatives, turn them into positive extra regeneration, but give vampires a 10/20/35/50 reduction in external heals, meaning you need to mainly sustain yourself, but can still receive help from others, even if limited. This would make vampires actually fun to play in solo world content, viable for group content, and wouldn't change them extremely in PvP.
There's 2 more changes I would add, and those would be the spamming ability needs to either deal massive amounts of extra damage in PvE(But not in PvP) or allow you to heal from other sources. Instead of eliminating the external heals completely, make it so when you use the skill it goes from your normal external heal reductions to 50/60/70/80 reduction, meaning if you wanna spam the skill you can do it without the healer cursing you forever to the planes of Oblivion when you die or drop low and need to straight up stop doing damage to heal(Yeah, doesn't sound too good for a DPS am I right?).
The other change would be making it so the mist reduces physical damage taken by 30/35/40/50% in PVE too, but it adds an extra that makes it so you receive 10/15/25/35% more magic damage for the duration of your mist form. In PvP, it would remain as it is right now, no magic damage received bonus.
With these changes, the vampire would be a fun alternative both for PvP and PvE, not a PvP warmonger. Why do I have to keep one character solely for PvP cause the vampirism is boring for any real content in the game other than that? The WW doesn't have these problems(Even if it's bad in it's own way, though this is not the post to talk about that).14 -
Kalitas✭✭✭Is that really your ONLY concern with the vampire skill line?
Well, let's see...
How about the fact that if instead of considering that everyone is a minmaxer or a PvP player only we consider that some people would like to have a vampire toon for general content and groups?
Yeah, let's start with that;
Tiers 1 to 3 are fine-ish(Not quite fine, but fine-ish). Skill line is a bit too slow to level up if you get bitten early in the game, you'll be stuck with 1 skill for like 20 levels. Personal experience. This should be addressed, since WW can literally be leveled up in about an hour.
First problem vampire has is it's absolutely counter intuitive and it's not lore-friendly.
Vampires, even if it sounds dumb, are more powerful when they don't feed in Elder Scrolls...But let's say for logic's convenience, we make it like it is now, the more you feed, the more powerful you are.
Raise your hands if you think Tier 4 is more powerful than even Tier 1...Anyone? Sure, it gives you "some bonuses", but the -100% life regen just stinks. Sure, "Chug a pot, drink with your skills, heal yourself", but having to take out my weapons every time I jump a small cliff that takes 1k of HP from me is just annoying and it doesn't really have a place. Tier 4 vampires feel like they're weaker than normal humans.
The second problem is the limitations they gave the vampire for healing; You only have 1 spam ability(Which deals about 10% more than any other normal spam ability), but it makes you unable to heal by external means, meaning YOU have to heal yourself if you're using it. This, paired with no health regen, just literally tanks the vampires out of any meaningful group content. Who would want a toon that plays like it's single player in group content?
The Blood Scion is alright, it just needs some more duration, since, unlike the WW, it can't extend it's transformation. Maybe making it so when the Blood Scion KILLS something when it drinks blood with it's healing ability it regains a % of transformation like the werewolf would be a nice solution to that.
The second step to fixing vampires is the regeneration negatives;
Switch around those negatives, turn them into positive extra regeneration, but give vampires a 10/20/35/50 reduction in external heals, meaning you need to mainly sustain yourself, but can still receive help from others, even if limited. This would make vampires actually fun to play in solo world content, viable for group content, and wouldn't change them extremely in PvP.
There's 2 more changes I would add, and those would be the spamming ability needs to either deal massive amounts of extra damage in PvE(But not in PvP) or allow you to heal from other sources. Instead of eliminating the external heals completely, make it so when you use the skill it goes from your normal external heal reductions to 50/60/70/80 reduction, meaning if you wanna spam the skill you can do it without the healer cursing you forever to the planes of Oblivion when you die or drop low and need to straight up stop doing damage to heal(Yeah, doesn't sound too good for a DPS am I right?).
The other change would be making it so the mist reduces physical damage taken by 30/35/40/50% in PVE too, but it adds an extra that makes it so you receive 10/15/25/35% more magic damage for the duration of your mist form. In PvP, it would remain as it is right now, no magic damage received bonus.
With these changes, the vampire would be a fun alternative both for PvP and PvE, not a PvP warmonger. Why do I have to keep one character solely for PvP cause the vampirism is boring for any real content in the game other than that? The WW doesn't have these problems(Even if it's bad in it's own way, though this is not the post to talk about that).
I completely agree with what you’ve said. I’m just trying to get more of a dialogue going so the devs can see it’s something a lot of players would like.@Kevin-G | Ajani | Wü-Tang Clan0 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭vamp 1.0 wasnt actually completely terrible, it just needed more skills to flesh it out better
vamp 2.0 is almost arguably worse than vamp 1.0, and the only reason people even run vamp now is for undeath passive (or some risky gank builds with the spam skill)
the drain really needs to be like a tether, not a channel, so it doesnt lock you into a very weak attack, radiant glory/oppression for templars has the same channel time but can do 100x more dmg and radiant glory heals you for like 47% of the dmg it does (and ive easily seen ticks of 50k+ when its in optimal execute range)plays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities8 -
OBJnoob✭✭✭✭✭
✭Agreed on all accounts except the turning the bad regen positive. Let's remember why it got reworked in the first place. With all the buffs we're talking about the regen will be fine the way it is.2 -
Artim_X✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Rubbish skill-line is
rubbish. Any time I look in the bank and see my gold Vampire Lord set Jewelry I bought from the Golden I can only feel disgust at how ZOS hyped up the new vamp skill-line only to deliver something that feel incomplete. Also it was quite annoying when they nerfed the functionality of this set instead of giving it new life by making is such a cursed thing (took away the increased damage done by vampire skills, increased ability cost, and even more fire damage taken) instead of a proper boon.
Some of the passives are nice (alternative source of invisibility), others not so much (cost increase on skills ). Mist being a toggle is cool despite the rubbish PvE nerf to it.
Blood Scion looks so ugly. Yeah we're a vampire, but vampire lords look way better than what we got. I do not appreciate Lamae Bal's creative liberties. Harrowing reaper would of been a better model to use if ZOS wanted us to look different.
Mesmerize is too restrictive for what it does. This skill needs a rework.
Of course, ZOS' greatest sin is that they forgot to include the cool vamp gap closer that was attached to Clouding Swarm. This could of been placed on Eviscerate, but nah vamps apparently don't need a gap closer.
As mentioned by the OP, it'd be nice if we could do something to extend the duration of the transformation. Maybe through Vampiric Drain. Also perhaps we can drink the blood from dead enemies (akin to werewolf feeding).(AD) Artim X/Xirtām/Måtrix |PC/NA| Casual staff wielding vampire sorcerer/templar/arcanistElectric-Stunhttps://media.giphy.com/media/Av0zcKH3i2BkaY1GXW/giphy.gif/https://c.tenor.com/jQHdFftrgwMAAAAC/tenor.gifElectric-Pets- Roleplay Damage Dealing Build.
- Gear: 5 Infallible Aether (All apparel light and Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 1 Slimecraw Guise for max spell critical (Divines, light, Max Mag Enchants), Maelstrom's Perfected Lightning Staff (infused/shock enchant), and Kinras's jewelry (bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant)/lightning staff (infused/flame/weapon damage enchant). 1 Mora's Whispers.
- Ability-Bar 1: Critical Surge, Boundless Storm, Mages' Wrath, Lightning Flood, Shocking Soul (Shock damage, Class Mastery Signature Script, and Empower), and Power Overload.
- Ability-Bar 2: Storm Pulsar, Streak, Shock Reach, Unstable Wall of Storms, Shocking Burst (Shock Damage, remove 1 negative effect, and interrupt) and Thunderous Rage.
Solo: Use Kinras's chest, replace Mora with Ring of the Pale Order, and use a heavy Slimcraw piece for max critical.
https://i.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExNHVjemwxZHI2ZmQ2bTg1ZG0xOTZ3b2QwajBzNGxmaHh6OXRpN3p6YSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/eBgWizk5dmZRS/giphy.gifElectric-Heal- Stress free one bar pet build .
- Gear: 5 Infallible Aether (All apparel light and Divines with Max Mag Enchants. No chest piece), 1 medium Slimecraw for max spell critical (Divines, medium, Max Mag Enchants), Lightning Staff of the Sergeant (precise/shock enchant), Sergeant's chest (Divines and max magicka enchant), and Sergeant ring and necklace (bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant), Oakensoul ring (bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant)
- Ability-Bar: Daedric Prey, Summon Volatile Familiar, Bound Armaments, Unstable Wall of Storms, Summon Twilight Matriarch, and Greater storm Atronach.
https://media.giphy.com/media/5ibGIHneWS6ek/giphy.gifElectric-Ward- My Healer Build.
- Gear: 5 Spell Power Cure (All apparel light and Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 1 Slimecraw Guise for max spell critical (Divines, light, Max Mag Enchants), Maelstrom's Perfected Lightning Staff (Charged/shock enchant), and Infallible Aether jewelry (arcane with spell damage enchant)/restoration staff (Powered with absorb magicka enchant). 1 Mora's Whispers.
- Ability-Bar 1: Power Surge, Boundless Storm, Blessing of Restoration, Energy Orb, Twilight Matriarch, and Replenishing Barrier.
- Ability-Bar 2: Dark Deal, Overflowing Altar, Elemental Drain, Blockade of Storms, Twilight Matriarch, and Aggressive Horn.
https://media.giphy.com/media/Wa0TGmtDvwW3e/giphy.gifElectric-Vamp- My Meme Tank Build that uses high resistance and variety of wards.
- Gear: 5 Brands of Imperium (All body pieces except Head and Shoulders, with Divine trait, and with Prismatic Defense Enchants), full Iceheart (1 light and 1 medium. Divines and Prismatic Enchant), and Combat Physician jewelry (bloodthirsty with Prismatic Recovery Enchants), Combat Physician restoration staff (Infused with hardening enchant), and combat physician ice staff (Infused with crusher enchant).
- Ability-Bar 1: Critical Surge, Bound Aegis, Deep Thoughts, Boundless Storm, Healing Ward, and Replenishing Barrier.
- Ability-Bar 2: Silver Leash (Elemental Drain if healer isn't running it), Bound Aegis, Frost Clench, Blockade of Frost, Empowered Ward, and Temporal Guard.
https://media.giphy.com/media/ukDQiYZzRAxMZKcK86/giphy.gifDawnfang- Tanky stage 4 vampire utility focused PvP healer that can take down very inexperienced players but is primarily focused on working alongside others in an organized group, PUGs, or zergs.
- Gear: 5 Torug's Pact (medium chest and body pieces light. All Impenetrable with Prismatic Enchants). Gaze of Sithis and 1 light Mighty Chudan/Pirate Skeleton (light shoulders, and impenetrable with Prismtaic Enchants). Knight Slayer (Swift with spell damage enchant)/lightning staff (infused with oblivion enchant)/restoration staff (infused with oblivion enchant).
- Ability-Bar 1: Structured Entropy, Boundless Storm, Soul Splitting Trap, Radiating Regeneration, Healing Ward, and Life Giver.
- Ability-Bar 2: Drain Vigor (Elemental Susceptibility), Race Against Time, Rune Cage, Radiant Magelight, Regenerative Ward, and Shatter Soul.
https://media.tenor.com/ogWfvDdsqBIAAAAd/anime-black-clover.gifDuskfang- My casual one bar heavy attack Templar build that primarily utilizes Aedric Spear abilities.
- Gear: 5 Noble Duelist (Head or Shoulder and body pieces except Chest. All body pieces Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 1 light Slimecraw for max spell critical (Divines, light, Max Mag Enchant), Lightning Staff of the Sergeant (precise/shock enchant), Sergeant's chest (Divines and max magicka enchant), and Sergeant's Mail jewelry (One Ring and one Neck. Both bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant). 1 Oakensoul Ring (bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant).
- Ability-Bar 1: Puncturing Sweep, Aurora Javelin, Toppling Charge, Blazing Spear, Radiant Ward/Breath of life, and Crescent Sweep.
https://media.tenor.com/Jo8aG_ouy_oAAAAd/ac-odyssey.gifEye of the Queen- Tanky stage 4 vampire utility focused PvP healer that can take down very inexperienced players but is primarily focused on working alongside others in an organized group, PUGs, or zergs.
- Gear: 5 Torug's Pact (Heavy Chest with light Head, Waist, Hands, and Feet. All body pieces Impenetrable. Health enchant on chest/head/legs and everything else Prismatic Enchants), 1 Medium Mighty Chudan/Pirate Skeleton Shoulder (Impenetrable, Prismatic Enchant), Knight Slayer Restoration Staff (Infused/Decrease Health enchant), and Knight Slayer jewelry (One Ring and one Neck. Both Swift with spell damage enchant). 1 Oakensoul Ring (Swift with Spell Damage Enchant).
- Ability-Bar 1: Radiant Oppression, Race Against Time, Aurora Javelin, Breath of Life, Resolving Vigor, and Life Giver.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fd/44/1c/fd441c8242af6ec35ada94496feb0901.gifEye of the King- My casual one bar heavy attack Arcanist build that primarily utilizes Herald of the Tome abilities.
- Gear: 5 Noble Duelist (Head or Shoulder and body pieces except Chest. All body pieces Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 1 light Slimecraw for max spell critical (Divines, light, Max Mag Enchant), Lightning Staff of the Sergeant (precise/shock enchant), Sergeant's chest (Divines and max magicka enchant), and Sergeant's Mail jewelry (One Ring and one Neck. Both bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant). 1 Oakensoul Ring (bloodthirsty with spell damage enchant).
- Ability-Bar 1: Escalating Runeblades, Pragmatic Fatecarver, Cephaliarch's Flail, Rune of Displacement, Inspired Scholarship/Evolving Runemend, and The Languid Eye.
https://i.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExOTAzdjV1eTgwbDFmM3lrZmxuMXRqdDR3Y3h1ZDRpajR0M3VjZzQ3NSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/zXmbOaTpbY6mA/giphy.gifPvE Starter Gear- Tanky stage 4 vampire utility focused PvP healer that can take down very inexperienced players but is primarily focused on working alongside others in an organized group, PUGs, or zergs.
- Gear: 5 Torug's Pact (Heavy Chest with light Head, Waist, Hands, and Feet. All body pieces Impenetrable. Health enchant on chest/head/legs and everything else Prismatic Enchants), 1 Medium Mighty Chudan/Pirate Skeleton Shoulder (Impenetrable, Prismatic Enchant), Knight Slayer Restoration Staff (Infused/Decrease Health enchant), and Knight Slayer jewelry (One Ring and one Neck. Both Swift with spell damage enchant). 1 Oakensoul Ring (Swift with Spell Damage Enchant).
- Ability-Bar 1: Escalating Runeblades, Race Against Time, Rune of Uncanny Adoration, Evolving Runemend, Resolving Vigor, and Life Giver.
https://media.giphy.com/media/6CovzgyTig7M4/giphy.gifRace- Gear: 5 Law of Julianos (heavy chest, gloves/belt light, and the rest can be light or 1 medium piece if you're not wearing medium anywhere else on your body. All in training if grinding for XP or divines), Armor of the Seducer or Magnus' Gift head, shoulder, and staves (light with 1 medium piece if you are not already wearing 1 medium Julianos piece. All in training or divines. The staves should be training or infused), and 3 purple Willpower Jewelry with Arcane trait (can be bought from trading guilds for relatively cheap.
- Check tamrieltradecentre.com for the best deals if you're not using a price checking addon).
https://media.giphy.com/media/sdEkeWpiaGz0A/giphy.gifMundus Stones- High elf, since you will not have issues with sustain, but other mag based races are also fine so this is more of a personal choice.
https://media.giphy.com/media/cT3wMhLGQWdKU/giphy.gifCurrent Champion Points- PvP: The Steed for speed. Gotta go fast!
- PvE Healing/Damage: The Thief for decent crit rate.
- PvE Tanking: The Lady to get close to resistance cap.
https://media.giphy.com/media/l4FGDAx6u3hthMhgI/giphy.gifFavorite Foods and Potions- DPS: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Exploiter, Weapons Expert, Fighting Finesse, Master-at-Arms, Celerity, Rejuvenation, Fortified, Boundless Vitality.
- Healer Sorc: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Enlivening Overflow, Hope Infusion, Weapon's Expert, Arcane Supremacy, Celerity, Rejuvenation, Fortified, Boundless Vitality.
- Tanky Sorc: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Ironclad, Enduring Resolve, Reinforced, Duelist's Rebuff, Bastion, Ward Master, Rejuvenation, Fortified.
- PvP Sorc: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Enlivening Overflow, Weapon's Expert, Occult Overload, Arcane Supremacy, Bastion, Rejuvenation, Fortified, Boundless Vitality.
- PvP Temp/Arcanist: Shadowstrike/ Master Gatherer, Meticulous Disassembly/Plentiful Harvest, Steed's Blessing, Sustaining Shadows, Enlivening Overflow, Weapon's Expert, From the Brink, Arcane Supremacy, Celerity, Rejuvenation, Fortified, Boundless Vitality.
https://media.giphy.com/media/3otPoTggaYFNd1FdAI/giphy.gif- Parse Food for PvE:(DPS) Ghastly Eye Bowl (increases Max Magicka by 4592 and Magicka Recovery by 459 for 2 hours).
- Gold/Purple Food for Sorc PvP and Meme Tanking:(PvP) Clockwork Citrus Filet (increases Max Health by 3326, Health Recovery by 406 [useful if stage 1 vampire], Max Magicka by 3080, and Magicka Recovery by 338 for 2 hours). Witchmother's Potent Brew (Increase Max Magicka by 2856, Max Health by 3094, and Magicka Recovery by 315 for 2 hours.
- Trash Potions when feeling cheap: Regular CP150 Essence of Magicka pots that I obtain frequently from playing the game or Crown Tri-Restoration Potion obtained from dailies.
- Crafted Potions: Essence of Spell Critical (Bugloss, Lady's Smock, and Water Hyacinth). Without magelight this is my primary means of obtaining Major Prophecy on my Sorc, which increases my Spell Critical Rating. This also heals and restores magicka. Essence of Immovability (Columbine, Corn Flower, and Wormwood). I use this in PvP, since this gives me stealth detection, knockback immunity, and restores magicka (better to use it when competent allies are nearby, since it might reveal that you are surrounded by multiple players in stealth and you will not have an emergency pot available after use). Essence of Invisibility with only 2 ingredients (Blue Entoloma, Namira's Rot, Nirnroot, or Spider Egg). I use this in PvE content that requires stealth and if I need more speed I'll use Rapid Maneuver before using the potion. Essence of Invisibility with 3 ingredients (Blessed Thistle, Blue Entoloma, and Namira's Rot). Very useful in PvP alongside the vampire Dark Stalker passive, since you'll be invisible, ignore movement speed penalty while in Crouch, and you'll have a 30% movement speed boost from Major Expedition (I always have this slotted when riding from point A to B in PvP land, since gankers are always lurking). My templar/arcanist will mostly use Essence of Health (Tri-Stat Potion) Ingredients: (Mountain Flower, Columbine, and Bugloss).
4 -
Kalitas✭✭✭Rubbish skill-line is rubbish. Any time I look in the bank and see my gold Vampire Lord set Jewelry I bought from the Golden I can only feel disgust at how ZOS hyped up the new vamp skill-line only to deliver something that feel incomplete. Also it was quite annoying when they nerfed the functionality of this set instead of giving it new life by making is such a cursed thing (took away the increased damage done by vampire skills, increased ability cost, and even more fire damage taken) instead of a proper boon.
Some of the passives are nice (alternative source of invisibility), others not so much (cost increase on skills ). Mist being a toggle is cool despite the rubbish PvE nerf to it.
Blood Scion looks so ugly. Yeah we're a vampire, but vampire lords look way better than what we got. I do not appreciate Lamae Bal's creative liberties. Harrowing reaper would of been a better model to use if ZOS wanted us to look different.
Mesmerize is too restrictive for what it does. This skill needs a rework.
Of course, ZOS' greatest sin is that they forgot to include the cool vamp gap closer that was attached to Clouding Swarm. This could of been placed on Eviscerate, but nah vamps apparently don't need a gap closer.
As mentioned by the OP, it'd be nice if we could do something to extend the duration of the transformation. Maybe through Vampiric Drain. Also perhaps we can drink the blood from dead enemies (akin to werewolf feeding).
This is all a great sum up of how vamp currently feels as well. I’m not asking for Vamp to even be as strong as werewolf, although it would be nice. I’m just asking for it to be slightly more viable. I’m going to try taking a vamp ult build through vet vateshran. Something werewolves can do fairly easily. I’ll see how it goes. No oaken.@Kevin-G | Ajani | Wü-Tang Clan1 -
ccfeeling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭We do love vamp but ZOS.
They may revamp vampire skill lines in the future, via a DLC again
1 -
Kurague✭✭✭Agreed on all accounts except the turning the bad regen positive. Let's remember why it got reworked in the first place. With all the buffs we're talking about the regen will be fine the way it is.
They could either turn it positive and nerf external healing or allow for tier 4 vampires to regen at least 5%, so you don't have to literally heal after a Guar coughing on you as you walk by.
It's EXTREMELY annoying to have to "unseath" the weapons just to cast a heal, not to mention you can't do it while mounted AND some people don't use cast heals, they tend to heal from damage to other creatures or whatever.
The regen is more of a Quality of Life than a buff; And it still doesn't really make much sense that vampires don't regen. Make a zombie race and make them not regen, this way it would at least make sense. Remember what we're talking about is making the vampire playable in all the content, just like Werewolf or any class is. Vampire, as it is, is only a PvP tool, cause otherwise it's just inconveniences all around.2 -
Kalitas✭✭✭Agreed on all accounts except the turning the bad regen positive. Let's remember why it got reworked in the first place. With all the buffs we're talking about the regen will be fine the way it is.
They could either turn it positive and nerf external healing or allow for tier 4 vampires to regen at least 5%, so you don't have to literally heal after a Guar coughing on you as you walk by.
It's EXTREMELY annoying to have to "unseath" the weapons just to cast a heal, not to mention you can't do it while mounted AND some people don't use cast heals, they tend to heal from damage to other creatures or whatever.
The regen is more of a Quality of Life than a buff; And it still doesn't really make much sense that vampires don't regen. Make a zombie race and make them not regen, this way it would at least make sense. Remember what we're talking about is making the vampire playable in all the content, just like Werewolf or any class is. Vampire, as it is, is only a PvP tool, cause otherwise it's just inconveniences all around.
Completely agree with this. Also, health regen is a fairly useless stat now in PVP anyway. I don’t understand why it’s tied into Vampire at all anymore. In PVE health regen is barely used as well outside of casual uses.@Kevin-G | Ajani | Wü-Tang Clan3 -
ccfeeling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You cannot health regen at vamp stage 4
You cannot be healed by allies for 3 seconds after blood for blood
You cannot be healed by anyone other than yourself during Blood Frenzy
You cannot reduce the damage taken from mob / mechanics by 75% in PVE via Mist form
PVE POV , not really a group friendly skill line , also no powerful ranged spammable , hm... GJ ZOS Edited by ccfeeling on June 29, 2022 1:34AM5 -
Kurague✭✭✭Agreed on all accounts except the turning the bad regen positive. Let's remember why it got reworked in the first place. With all the buffs we're talking about the regen will be fine the way it is.
They could either turn it positive and nerf external healing or allow for tier 4 vampires to regen at least 5%, so you don't have to literally heal after a Guar coughing on you as you walk by.
It's EXTREMELY annoying to have to "unseath" the weapons just to cast a heal, not to mention you can't do it while mounted AND some people don't use cast heals, they tend to heal from damage to other creatures or whatever.
The regen is more of a Quality of Life than a buff; And it still doesn't really make much sense that vampires don't regen. Make a zombie race and make them not regen, this way it would at least make sense. Remember what we're talking about is making the vampire playable in all the content, just like Werewolf or any class is. Vampire, as it is, is only a PvP tool, cause otherwise it's just inconveniences all around.
Completely agree with this. Also, health regen is a fairly useless stat now in PVP anyway. I don’t understand why it’s tied into Vampire at all anymore. In PVE health regen is barely used as well outside of casual uses.
Yeah, that's exactly my point. They should just make the vampire gain faster regeneration or just leave regeneration alone. Makes no sense that a vampire regenerates slow or doesn't regenerate, BUT IT DOES MAKE SENSE that other people's "miracles" are less effective on vampires. They could go this route and make the vampires make use of regeneration in a special way, like if you have a regen build you could regen 5k every 3 seconds or something like this, but ofc deal less dmg and all that jitter.
Or just make the regeneration stay normal or boost it a bit, that would make vampire feel great and VERY cool in PvE content, while PvP would be...Just the same, honestly.
Just think about the difference on this two cases;
You become a vampire, you complete the super cool mission with the Blood Mother, the Blood Mother told you to rampage and feed so you can become extremely powerful....You feed on 4 people(Cause that's all you need...For some reason), and then you notices that...Oh wait, you can't regenerate health and everything you cast is more expensive than it was before...Wait, is that a FIREB-?!
And now, you have more regeneration with the advancement of stages, up to a 50% extra or even a 100% extra at stage 4. You come out of the quest, you "Rampage" and get to evolution 4(I think it should take more than 1 bite, maybe 3 bites from tier 1 to 2, 6 from tier 2 to 3 and 15 from tier 3 to 4, but make it so it's much longer till you have to feed before you drop.
Anyways, you rampage and evolve to Vampire tier 4. You can get healing from your skills, but you also have an extra life regeneration kick, you DO feel stronger than before, since you'll see your life regen faster, and you'll have access to your vampiric abilities as you progress, and...Wait, is that a FIREB-?!
What I mean with the fireball joke is, even if you allow vampires to regenerate, they still have big weaknesses. A whole 20% extra damage from fire and extra 20% normal resource cost is A LOT, but since now you have a perk to compensate, and not just some silly invisible running that you don't get access to until you level the vampire quite a bit anyways(And this ain't happening with a fresh toon anytime soon), you can actually feel like there's advancement between tiers, and you can decide wether you want to cope with the disadvantages for the perks or not. Tell me of a vampire player outside of PvP that consistently Tier 4s his vampire. Yeah, no one, I know, cause it sucks and the removal of the regeneration and the fact that the tier doesn't really give you anything in exchange makes it feel miserable cause you lost your regen, a VERY BIG quality of life part, and there's not even a way to overcome this; I used the +% regen from the heavy armor, and added Health restoration foods, and you can't overcome the no health regen to play comfortably...You just need to suck it up, and use a skill to heal. That's why I suggested all that.2 -
TX12001rwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I had an idea for how the existing system could be enhanced to feel powerful, remove Strike from Shadows as it cannot be procced easily by a lot of builds, instead replace it with the Stage 4 Passive Unnatural Movement (Your weaker stages will be the running and hiding stages where as the stronger stages will be about combat)
Stage 1: Dark Stalker Remains the Same
Stage 2: Unnatural Movement Remains the Same but Moved to Stage 2 from Stage 4
Stage 3: Undeath Remains the Same
Stage 4: Blood Frenzy Increase weapon and spell damage by 60 points for 10 seconds whenever you kill a creature, this effect can stack 5 times up to 300 Weapon and Spell damage
The existing Blood Frenzy ability would be replaced by the following ability.
Blood Swarm The Vampire commands a Swarm of Bats in the targeted area for 8 seconds that deal XXX damage every second, the swarm grows in strength increasing in damage by 50% for every enemy in the swarm up to a maximum of 250%
Morph 1: Empowering Swarm Now applies Minor magickasteal and Minor lifesteal to targets within the Swarm.
Morph 2: Razor Swarm Now applies Major Breach to targets within the Swarm
The Mist Form ability will be completely altered so it works again in PvE and is less OP in PvP and become as ZOS insists it is, an escape ability.
Mist Form Applies Major Expedition, Major Protection and grants immunity to Snares and Immobilizations
Morph 1: Shadow Mist After the Mist Effects ends gain 300 weapon and spell damage for 3 seconds.
Morph 2: Regenerating Mist Recover 300 Health and Stamina every second while in Mist Form.
The Perfect Scion morph is viewed by many as a useless morph, however just looking at it as a morph makes you forget how powerful the ultimate it is attached to really is, so why not make it that in addition to it's existing effects it also allows you to stay transformed for 30 seconds up from 20 secondsEdited by TX12001rwb17_ESO on June 29, 2022 9:11AM4 -
Kurague✭✭✭TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »I had an idea for how the existing system could be enhanced to feel powerful, remove Strike from Shadows as it cannot be procced easily by a lot of builds, instead replace it with the Stage 4 Passive Unnatural Movement (Your weaker stages will be the running and hiding stages where as the stronger stages will be about combat)
Stage 1: Dark Stalker Remains the Same
Stage 2: Unnatural Movement Remains the Same but Moved to Stage 2 from Stage 4
Stage 3: Undeath Remains the Same
Stage 4: Blood Frenzy Increase weapon and spell damage by 60 points for 10 seconds whenever you kill a creature, this effect can stack 5 times up to 300 Weapon and Spell damage
The existing Blood Frenzy ability would be replaced by the following ability.
Blood Swarm The Vampire commands a Swarm of Bats in the targeted area for 8 seconds that deal XXX damage every second, the swarm grows in strength increasing in damage by 50% for every enemy in the swarm up to a maximum of 250%
Morph 1: Empowering Swarm Now applies Minor magickasteal and Minor lifesteal to targets within the Swarm.
Morph 2: Razor Swarm Now applies Major Breach to targets within the Swarm
The Mist Form ability will be completely altered so it works again in PvE and is less OP in PvP and become as ZOS insists it is, an escape ability.
Mist Form Applies Major Expedition, Major Protection and grants immunity to Snares and Immobilizations
Morph 1: Shadow Mist After the Mist Effects ends gain 300 weapon and spell damage for 3 seconds.
Morph 2: Regenerating Mist Recover 300 Health and Stamina every second while in Mist Form.
The Perfect Scion morph is viewed by many as a useless morph, however just looking at it as a morph makes you forget how powerful the ultimate it is attached to really is, so why not make it that in addition to it's existing effects it also allows you to stay transformed for 30 seconds up from 20 seconds
While I still prefer my take on the vampire, I like your version too, as long as they remove the negative regeneration.0 -
Thecompton73✭✭✭✭✭TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »I had an idea for how the existing system could be enhanced to feel powerful, remove Strike from Shadows as it cannot be procced easily by a lot of builds, instead replace it with the Stage 4 Passive Unnatural Movement (Your weaker stages will be the running and hiding stages where as the stronger stages will be about combat)
Stage 1: Dark Stalker Remains the Same
Stage 2: Unnatural Movement Remains the Same but Moved to Stage 2 from Stage 4
Stage 3: Undeath Remains the Same
Stage 4: Blood Frenzy Increase weapon and spell damage by 60 points for 10 seconds whenever you kill a creature, this effect can stack 5 times up to 300 Weapon and Spell damage
The existing Blood Frenzy ability would be replaced by the following ability.
Blood Swarm The Vampire commands a Swarm of Bats in the targeted area for 8 seconds that deal XXX damage every second, the swarm grows in strength increasing in damage by 50% for every enemy in the swarm up to a maximum of 250%
Morph 1: Empowering Swarm Now applies Minor magickasteal and Minor lifesteal to targets within the Swarm.
Morph 2: Razor Swarm Now applies Major Breach to targets within the Swarm
The Mist Form ability will be completely altered so it works again in PvE and is less OP in PvP and become as ZOS insists it is, an escape ability.
Mist Form Applies Major Expedition, Major Protection and grants immunity to Snares and Immobilizations
Morph 1: Shadow Mist After the Mist Effects ends gain 300 weapon and spell damage for 3 seconds.
Morph 2: Regenerating Mist Recover 300 Health and Stamina every second while in Mist Form.
The Perfect Scion morph is viewed by many as a useless morph, however just looking at it as a morph makes you forget how powerful the ultimate it is attached to really is, so why not make it that in addition to it's existing effects it also allows you to stay transformed for 30 seconds up from 20 seconds
So you wanna make Vamp kill 5 enemies in less than 10 seconds to get the same amount of wd/sd you get now from making use of the stage 4 passive to get it in 3 seconds or instantly via cloak or an invisibility pot? No thanks1 -
Kurague✭✭✭Thecompton73 wrote: »TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »I had an idea for how the existing system could be enhanced to feel powerful, remove Strike from Shadows as it cannot be procced easily by a lot of builds, instead replace it with the Stage 4 Passive Unnatural Movement (Your weaker stages will be the running and hiding stages where as the stronger stages will be about combat)
Stage 1: Dark Stalker Remains the Same
Stage 2: Unnatural Movement Remains the Same but Moved to Stage 2 from Stage 4
Stage 3: Undeath Remains the Same
Stage 4: Blood Frenzy Increase weapon and spell damage by 60 points for 10 seconds whenever you kill a creature, this effect can stack 5 times up to 300 Weapon and Spell damage
The existing Blood Frenzy ability would be replaced by the following ability.
Blood Swarm The Vampire commands a Swarm of Bats in the targeted area for 8 seconds that deal XXX damage every second, the swarm grows in strength increasing in damage by 50% for every enemy in the swarm up to a maximum of 250%
Morph 1: Empowering Swarm Now applies Minor magickasteal and Minor lifesteal to targets within the Swarm.
Morph 2: Razor Swarm Now applies Major Breach to targets within the Swarm
The Mist Form ability will be completely altered so it works again in PvE and is less OP in PvP and become as ZOS insists it is, an escape ability.
Mist Form Applies Major Expedition, Major Protection and grants immunity to Snares and Immobilizations
Morph 1: Shadow Mist After the Mist Effects ends gain 300 weapon and spell damage for 3 seconds.
Morph 2: Regenerating Mist Recover 300 Health and Stamina every second while in Mist Form.
The Perfect Scion morph is viewed by many as a useless morph, however just looking at it as a morph makes you forget how powerful the ultimate it is attached to really is, so why not make it that in addition to it's existing effects it also allows you to stay transformed for 30 seconds up from 20 seconds
So you wanna make Vamp kill 5 enemies in less than 10 seconds to get the same amount of wd/sd you get now from making use of the stage 4 passive to get it in 3 seconds or instantly via cloak or an invisibility pot? No thanks
He didn't mention specific numbers. Vampire had a bat swarm before, it could start with a very low damage that ramps up into a good damage per second when fully charged.0 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »I had an idea for how the existing system could be enhanced to feel powerful, remove Strike from Shadows as it cannot be procced easily by a lot of builds, instead replace it with the Stage 4 Passive Unnatural Movement (Your weaker stages will be the running and hiding stages where as the stronger stages will be about combat)
Stage 1: Dark Stalker Remains the Same
Stage 2: Unnatural Movement Remains the Same but Moved to Stage 2 from Stage 4
Stage 3: Undeath Remains the Same
Stage 4: Blood Frenzy Increase weapon and spell damage by 60 points for 10 seconds whenever you kill a creature, this effect can stack 5 times up to 300 Weapon and Spell damage
The existing Blood Frenzy ability would be replaced by the following ability.
Blood Swarm The Vampire commands a Swarm of Bats in the targeted area for 8 seconds that deal XXX damage every second, the swarm grows in strength increasing in damage by 50% for every enemy in the swarm up to a maximum of 250%
Morph 1: Empowering Swarm Now applies Minor magickasteal and Minor lifesteal to targets within the Swarm.
Morph 2: Razor Swarm Now applies Major Breach to targets within the Swarm
The Mist Form ability will be completely altered so it works again in PvE and is less OP in PvP and become as ZOS insists it is, an escape ability.
Mist Form Applies Major Expedition, Major Protection and grants immunity to Snares and Immobilizations
Morph 1: Shadow Mist After the Mist Effects ends gain 300 weapon and spell damage for 3 seconds.
Morph 2: Regenerating Mist Recover 300 Health and Stamina every second while in Mist Form.
The Perfect Scion morph is viewed by many as a useless morph, however just looking at it as a morph makes you forget how powerful the ultimate it is attached to really is, so why not make it that in addition to it's existing effects it also allows you to stay transformed for 30 seconds up from 20 seconds
Your Mist Form suggestion is not gonna work out. Why would you slot Mist Form for Major Expedition and Major Protection if you can slot Revealing Flare for permanent passive Major Protection at no cost without needing to be vampire. It's just not worth making yourself unable to attack and use other skills just to gain Major Protection and Expedition - oh and does Mist Form still negate allied healing in your suggestion?
Mist Form should half it's mitigation for PvE and gain the rest of it as mitigation against player damage. Problem solved and the skill is useful again. That way it is comparable to Meditate + Psijic passives.
The rest of your suggestions are fine.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.0 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »I had an idea for how the existing system could be enhanced to feel powerful, remove Strike from Shadows as it cannot be procced easily by a lot of builds, instead replace it with the Stage 4 Passive Unnatural Movement (Your weaker stages will be the running and hiding stages where as the stronger stages will be about combat)
Stage 1: Dark Stalker Remains the Same
Stage 2: Unnatural Movement Remains the Same but Moved to Stage 2 from Stage 4
Stage 3: Undeath Remains the Same
Stage 4: Blood Frenzy Increase weapon and spell damage by 60 points for 10 seconds whenever you kill a creature, this effect can stack 5 times up to 300 Weapon and Spell damage
The existing Blood Frenzy ability would be replaced by the following ability.
Blood Swarm The Vampire commands a Swarm of Bats in the targeted area for 8 seconds that deal XXX damage every second, the swarm grows in strength increasing in damage by 50% for every enemy in the swarm up to a maximum of 250%
Morph 1: Empowering Swarm Now applies Minor magickasteal and Minor lifesteal to targets within the Swarm.
Morph 2: Razor Swarm Now applies Major Breach to targets within the Swarm
The Mist Form ability will be completely altered so it works again in PvE and is less OP in PvP and become as ZOS insists it is, an escape ability.
Mist Form Applies Major Expedition, Major Protection and grants immunity to Snares and Immobilizations
Morph 1: Shadow Mist After the Mist Effects ends gain 300 weapon and spell damage for 3 seconds.
Morph 2: Regenerating Mist Recover 300 Health and Stamina every second while in Mist Form.
The Perfect Scion morph is viewed by many as a useless morph, however just looking at it as a morph makes you forget how powerful the ultimate it is attached to really is, so why not make it that in addition to it's existing effects it also allows you to stay transformed for 30 seconds up from 20 seconds
While I still prefer my take on the vampire, I like your version too, as long as they remove the negative regeneration.
The negative regeneration makes sense conceptually - as your vampiric powers grow, your mortal powers become more taxing. The problem is that pretty much all our powers are mortal, and the vampiric ones that could replace them suck. So I'd prefer if they first made all the skills fun and effective to use before axing the whole regeneration concept.
As for diminished health regen, that has been part of TES Vampires at least in Daggerfall and Morrowind, so I don't see why you'd say it doesn't make sense. At least we don't get sun damage while walking in daylight, lol.
What I would have done in regards to healing, is to make the Ring of the Pale Order effect a base passive for Vampires. Frankly I felt it was a damn insult that it was added the same patch as the Vampire overhaul.
So your "natural" health regeneration (and possibly healing received) is diminished, and you have to deal damage i.e. draw blood to heal yourself effectively. That would make sense conceptually for TES Vampires, not this backwards way where they have us spend health to deal damage.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.0 -
Ragnarok0130✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Is that really your ONLY concern with the vampire skill line?
Well, let's see...
How about the fact that if instead of considering that everyone is a minmaxer or a PvP player only we consider that some people would like to have a vampire toon for general content and groups?
Yeah, let's start with that;
Tiers 1 to 3 are fine-ish(Not quite fine, but fine-ish). Skill line is a bit too slow to level up if you get bitten early in the game, you'll be stuck with 1 skill for like 20 levels. Personal experience. This should be addressed, since WW can literally be leveled up in about an hour.
First problem vampire has is it's absolutely counter intuitive and it's not lore-friendly.
Vampires, even if it sounds dumb, are more powerful when they don't feed in Elder Scrolls...But let's say for logic's convenience, we make it like it is now, the more you feed, the more powerful you are.
Raise your hands if you think Tier 4 is more powerful than even Tier 1...Anyone? Sure, it gives you "some bonuses", but the -100% life regen just stinks. Sure, "Chug a pot, drink with your skills, heal yourself", but having to take out my weapons every time I jump a small cliff that takes 1k of HP from me is just annoying and it doesn't really have a place. Tier 4 vampires feel like they're weaker than normal humans.
The second problem is the limitations they gave the vampire for healing; You only have 1 spam ability(Which deals about 10% more than any other normal spam ability), but it makes you unable to heal by external means, meaning YOU have to heal yourself if you're using it. This, paired with no health regen, just literally tanks the vampires out of any meaningful group content. Who would want a toon that plays like it's single player in group content?
The Blood Scion is alright, it just needs some more duration, since, unlike the WW, it can't extend it's transformation. Maybe making it so when the Blood Scion KILLS something when it drinks blood with it's healing ability it regains a % of transformation like the werewolf would be a nice solution to that.
The second step to fixing vampires is the regeneration negatives;
Switch around those negatives, turn them into positive extra regeneration, but give vampires a 10/20/35/50 reduction in external heals, meaning you need to mainly sustain yourself, but can still receive help from others, even if limited. This would make vampires actually fun to play in solo world content, viable for group content, and wouldn't change them extremely in PvP.
There's 2 more changes I would add, and those would be the spamming ability needs to either deal massive amounts of extra damage in PvE(But not in PvP) or allow you to heal from other sources. Instead of eliminating the external heals completely, make it so when you use the skill it goes from your normal external heal reductions to 50/60/70/80 reduction, meaning if you wanna spam the skill you can do it without the healer cursing you forever to the planes of Oblivion when you die or drop low and need to straight up stop doing damage to heal(Yeah, doesn't sound too good for a DPS am I right?).
The other change would be making it so the mist reduces physical damage taken by 30/35/40/50% in PVE too, but it adds an extra that makes it so you receive 10/15/25/35% more magic damage for the duration of your mist form. In PvP, it would remain as it is right now, no magic damage received bonus.
With these changes, the vampire would be a fun alternative both for PvP and PvE, not a PvP warmonger. Why do I have to keep one character solely for PvP cause the vampirism is boring for any real content in the game other than that? The WW doesn't have these problems(Even if it's bad in it's own way, though this is not the post to talk about that).
I completely agree with what you’ve said. I’m just trying to get more of a dialogue going so the devs can see it’s something a lot of players would like.
Oh my sweet sweet summer child, I don't think the devs really care what we want in this skill line. If they did they'd have incorporated more of the cool skills that we saw Greymoor Vampires use to make it a truly fun skill line.2 -
Kalitas✭✭✭Ragnarok0130 wrote: »Is that really your ONLY concern with the vampire skill line?
Well, let's see...
How about the fact that if instead of considering that everyone is a minmaxer or a PvP player only we consider that some people would like to have a vampire toon for general content and groups?
Yeah, let's start with that;
Tiers 1 to 3 are fine-ish(Not quite fine, but fine-ish). Skill line is a bit too slow to level up if you get bitten early in the game, you'll be stuck with 1 skill for like 20 levels. Personal experience. This should be addressed, since WW can literally be leveled up in about an hour.
First problem vampire has is it's absolutely counter intuitive and it's not lore-friendly.
Vampires, even if it sounds dumb, are more powerful when they don't feed in Elder Scrolls...But let's say for logic's convenience, we make it like it is now, the more you feed, the more powerful you are.
Raise your hands if you think Tier 4 is more powerful than even Tier 1...Anyone? Sure, it gives you "some bonuses", but the -100% life regen just stinks. Sure, "Chug a pot, drink with your skills, heal yourself", but having to take out my weapons every time I jump a small cliff that takes 1k of HP from me is just annoying and it doesn't really have a place. Tier 4 vampires feel like they're weaker than normal humans.
The second problem is the limitations they gave the vampire for healing; You only have 1 spam ability(Which deals about 10% more than any other normal spam ability), but it makes you unable to heal by external means, meaning YOU have to heal yourself if you're using it. This, paired with no health regen, just literally tanks the vampires out of any meaningful group content. Who would want a toon that plays like it's single player in group content?
The Blood Scion is alright, it just needs some more duration, since, unlike the WW, it can't extend it's transformation. Maybe making it so when the Blood Scion KILLS something when it drinks blood with it's healing ability it regains a % of transformation like the werewolf would be a nice solution to that.
The second step to fixing vampires is the regeneration negatives;
Switch around those negatives, turn them into positive extra regeneration, but give vampires a 10/20/35/50 reduction in external heals, meaning you need to mainly sustain yourself, but can still receive help from others, even if limited. This would make vampires actually fun to play in solo world content, viable for group content, and wouldn't change them extremely in PvP.
There's 2 more changes I would add, and those would be the spamming ability needs to either deal massive amounts of extra damage in PvE(But not in PvP) or allow you to heal from other sources. Instead of eliminating the external heals completely, make it so when you use the skill it goes from your normal external heal reductions to 50/60/70/80 reduction, meaning if you wanna spam the skill you can do it without the healer cursing you forever to the planes of Oblivion when you die or drop low and need to straight up stop doing damage to heal(Yeah, doesn't sound too good for a DPS am I right?).
The other change would be making it so the mist reduces physical damage taken by 30/35/40/50% in PVE too, but it adds an extra that makes it so you receive 10/15/25/35% more magic damage for the duration of your mist form. In PvP, it would remain as it is right now, no magic damage received bonus.
With these changes, the vampire would be a fun alternative both for PvP and PvE, not a PvP warmonger. Why do I have to keep one character solely for PvP cause the vampirism is boring for any real content in the game other than that? The WW doesn't have these problems(Even if it's bad in it's own way, though this is not the post to talk about that).
I completely agree with what you’ve said. I’m just trying to get more of a dialogue going so the devs can see it’s something a lot of players would like.
Oh my sweet sweet summer child, I don't think the devs really care what we want in this skill line. If they did they'd have incorporated more of the cool skills that we saw Greymoor Vampires use to make it a truly fun skill line.
Yeah I know. That's why I left this game for 2.5 years. Coming back for the new pvp servers then seeing what Oaken is doing to PVP is making me debate heading out again. It would be great if we could just get some communication from ZOS over what the plans are. Do they plan to work on vamp again or are we just stuck with it as is. I would really have liked if ZOS would have improved their communication in the years I've been gone.@Kevin-G | Ajani | Wü-Tang Clan1 -
Kurague✭✭✭TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »I had an idea for how the existing system could be enhanced to feel powerful, remove Strike from Shadows as it cannot be procced easily by a lot of builds, instead replace it with the Stage 4 Passive Unnatural Movement (Your weaker stages will be the running and hiding stages where as the stronger stages will be about combat)
Stage 1: Dark Stalker Remains the Same
Stage 2: Unnatural Movement Remains the Same but Moved to Stage 2 from Stage 4
Stage 3: Undeath Remains the Same
Stage 4: Blood Frenzy Increase weapon and spell damage by 60 points for 10 seconds whenever you kill a creature, this effect can stack 5 times up to 300 Weapon and Spell damage
The existing Blood Frenzy ability would be replaced by the following ability.
Blood Swarm The Vampire commands a Swarm of Bats in the targeted area for 8 seconds that deal XXX damage every second, the swarm grows in strength increasing in damage by 50% for every enemy in the swarm up to a maximum of 250%
Morph 1: Empowering Swarm Now applies Minor magickasteal and Minor lifesteal to targets within the Swarm.
Morph 2: Razor Swarm Now applies Major Breach to targets within the Swarm
The Mist Form ability will be completely altered so it works again in PvE and is less OP in PvP and become as ZOS insists it is, an escape ability.
Mist Form Applies Major Expedition, Major Protection and grants immunity to Snares and Immobilizations
Morph 1: Shadow Mist After the Mist Effects ends gain 300 weapon and spell damage for 3 seconds.
Morph 2: Regenerating Mist Recover 300 Health and Stamina every second while in Mist Form.
The Perfect Scion morph is viewed by many as a useless morph, however just looking at it as a morph makes you forget how powerful the ultimate it is attached to really is, so why not make it that in addition to it's existing effects it also allows you to stay transformed for 30 seconds up from 20 seconds
While I still prefer my take on the vampire, I like your version too, as long as they remove the negative regeneration.
The negative regeneration makes sense conceptually - as your vampiric powers grow, your mortal powers become more taxing. The problem is that pretty much all our powers are mortal, and the vampiric ones that could replace them suck. So I'd prefer if they first made all the skills fun and effective to use before axing the whole regeneration concept.
As for diminished health regen, that has been part of TES Vampires at least in Daggerfall and Morrowind, so I don't see why you'd say it doesn't make sense. At least we don't get sun damage while walking in daylight, lol.
What I would have done in regards to healing, is to make the Ring of the Pale Order effect a base passive for Vampires. Frankly I felt it was a damn insult that it was added the same patch as the Vampire overhaul.
So your "natural" health regeneration (and possibly healing received) is diminished, and you have to deal damage i.e. draw blood to heal yourself effectively. That would make sense conceptually for TES Vampires, not this backwards way where they have us spend health to deal damage.
I wonder where in the vampires of Morrowind, Oblivion or Skyrim say they don't regenerate health. ONLY in Skyrim you can regenerate health naturally, and even if the vampires have disabled regeneration WHILE IT'S DAYTIME, they also have no stamina or Magicka regeneration...BUT WAIT, there's more; Not only you're not talking about the same disease(cause you are talking about SANGUINAE VAMPIRIS, and this is NOXIPHILIA SANGUIVORIA), but it is actually stated that vampires don't suffer negatives during daytime, but instead become super powerful during the night.
"If it is contracted, the blood of uninfected specimens is required for sustenance. Unlike those infected with Sanguinare Vampiris, for example, victims of Noxiphilic Sanguivoria are not weakened or otherwise harmed by sunlight; and they are instead strengthened during the night. As such, their regenerative abilities are greatly enhanced at night, and they become immensely courageous and resistant to pain during the darker hours"
1 -
Kurague✭✭✭This book is IN GAME in TESO:
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Noxiphilic_Sanguivoria_(Book)
So tell me, why the heck do I not regenerate as a tier 4 vampire? And why do I feel like I'm weaker in tier 4 than in tier 1? xD2 -
Kalitas✭✭✭This book is IN GAME in TESO:
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Noxiphilic_Sanguivoria_(Book)
So tell me, why the heck do I not regenerate as a tier 4 vampire? And why do I feel like I'm weaker in tier 4 than in tier 1? xD
I have to say your vampire expertise is impressive. The fact that you aren't rage posting everyday about the current state of vamp says a lot about your self control.@Kevin-G | Ajani | Wü-Tang Clan0 -
Kurague✭✭✭This book is IN GAME in TESO:
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Noxiphilic_Sanguivoria_(Book)
So tell me, why the heck do I not regenerate as a tier 4 vampire? And why do I feel like I'm weaker in tier 4 than in tier 1? xD
I have to say your vampire expertise is impressive. The fact that you aren't rage posting everyday about the current state of vamp says a lot about your self control.
I really like vampires in media, so I tend to experiment with them or use them in games in which I am allowed to...
And I'm not really angry, I'm more dissapointed than anything.1 -
TX12001rwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭This book is IN GAME in TESO:
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Noxiphilic_Sanguivoria_(Book)
So tell me, why the heck do I not regenerate as a tier 4 vampire? And why do I feel like I'm weaker in tier 4 than in tier 1? xD
That book is extremely outdated and was written long before the Blood Scion form was a thing, as we know from the Greymoor update Molag Bal had nothing to do with the creation of the Blood Scion.Edited by TX12001rwb17_ESO on June 29, 2022 2:21PM0 -
TX12001rwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »I had an idea for how the existing system could be enhanced to feel powerful, remove Strike from Shadows as it cannot be procced easily by a lot of builds, instead replace it with the Stage 4 Passive Unnatural Movement (Your weaker stages will be the running and hiding stages where as the stronger stages will be about combat)
Stage 1: Dark Stalker Remains the Same
Stage 2: Unnatural Movement Remains the Same but Moved to Stage 2 from Stage 4
Stage 3: Undeath Remains the Same
Stage 4: Blood Frenzy Increase weapon and spell damage by 60 points for 10 seconds whenever you kill a creature, this effect can stack 5 times up to 300 Weapon and Spell damage
The existing Blood Frenzy ability would be replaced by the following ability.
Blood Swarm The Vampire commands a Swarm of Bats in the targeted area for 8 seconds that deal XXX damage every second, the swarm grows in strength increasing in damage by 50% for every enemy in the swarm up to a maximum of 250%
Morph 1: Empowering Swarm Now applies Minor magickasteal and Minor lifesteal to targets within the Swarm.
Morph 2: Razor Swarm Now applies Major Breach to targets within the Swarm
The Mist Form ability will be completely altered so it works again in PvE and is less OP in PvP and become as ZOS insists it is, an escape ability.
Mist Form Applies Major Expedition, Major Protection and grants immunity to Snares and Immobilizations
Morph 1: Shadow Mist After the Mist Effects ends gain 300 weapon and spell damage for 3 seconds.
Morph 2: Regenerating Mist Recover 300 Health and Stamina every second while in Mist Form.
The Perfect Scion morph is viewed by many as a useless morph, however just looking at it as a morph makes you forget how powerful the ultimate it is attached to really is, so why not make it that in addition to it's existing effects it also allows you to stay transformed for 30 seconds up from 20 seconds
Your Mist Form suggestion is not gonna work out. Why would you slot Mist Form for Major Expedition and Major Protection if you can slot Revealing Flare for permanent passive Major Protection at no cost without needing to be vampire. It's just not worth making yourself unable to attack and use other skills just to gain Major Protection and Expedition - oh and does Mist Form still negate allied healing in your suggestion?
Mist Form should half it's mitigation for PvE and gain the rest of it as mitigation against player damage. Problem solved and the skill is useful again. That way it is comparable to Meditate + Psijic passives.
The rest of your suggestions are fine.
Then why not make it a unique 50% speed buff, the major protection would just be a bonus effect, this rendition of Mist form would be an Escape move not a tanking move, if you try to tank with this you will get killed.Edited by TX12001rwb17_ESO on June 29, 2022 2:20PM0 -
Feljax✭✭✭✭I am not a fan of the scion model but I think one quick and simple fix would be to make the scion's eyes glow (perhaps a different colour for each morph?). As it stands, one of the most unsettling things about the scion is those beady eyes. Having visible pupils just looks so wrong on this model. It's not a perfect solution by any means but I think it would be loads better than what we have now and it would be quick and easy for the devs to implement.
Many other great suggestions here. Keep it up!0 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »I had an idea for how the existing system could be enhanced to feel powerful, remove Strike from Shadows as it cannot be procced easily by a lot of builds, instead replace it with the Stage 4 Passive Unnatural Movement (Your weaker stages will be the running and hiding stages where as the stronger stages will be about combat)
Stage 1: Dark Stalker Remains the Same
Stage 2: Unnatural Movement Remains the Same but Moved to Stage 2 from Stage 4
Stage 3: Undeath Remains the Same
Stage 4: Blood Frenzy Increase weapon and spell damage by 60 points for 10 seconds whenever you kill a creature, this effect can stack 5 times up to 300 Weapon and Spell damage
The existing Blood Frenzy ability would be replaced by the following ability.
Blood Swarm The Vampire commands a Swarm of Bats in the targeted area for 8 seconds that deal XXX damage every second, the swarm grows in strength increasing in damage by 50% for every enemy in the swarm up to a maximum of 250%
Morph 1: Empowering Swarm Now applies Minor magickasteal and Minor lifesteal to targets within the Swarm.
Morph 2: Razor Swarm Now applies Major Breach to targets within the Swarm
The Mist Form ability will be completely altered so it works again in PvE and is less OP in PvP and become as ZOS insists it is, an escape ability.
Mist Form Applies Major Expedition, Major Protection and grants immunity to Snares and Immobilizations
Morph 1: Shadow Mist After the Mist Effects ends gain 300 weapon and spell damage for 3 seconds.
Morph 2: Regenerating Mist Recover 300 Health and Stamina every second while in Mist Form.
The Perfect Scion morph is viewed by many as a useless morph, however just looking at it as a morph makes you forget how powerful the ultimate it is attached to really is, so why not make it that in addition to it's existing effects it also allows you to stay transformed for 30 seconds up from 20 seconds
While I still prefer my take on the vampire, I like your version too, as long as they remove the negative regeneration.
The negative regeneration makes sense conceptually - as your vampiric powers grow, your mortal powers become more taxing. The problem is that pretty much all our powers are mortal, and the vampiric ones that could replace them suck. So I'd prefer if they first made all the skills fun and effective to use before axing the whole regeneration concept.
As for diminished health regen, that has been part of TES Vampires at least in Daggerfall and Morrowind, so I don't see why you'd say it doesn't make sense. At least we don't get sun damage while walking in daylight, lol.
What I would have done in regards to healing, is to make the Ring of the Pale Order effect a base passive for Vampires. Frankly I felt it was a damn insult that it was added the same patch as the Vampire overhaul.
So your "natural" health regeneration (and possibly healing received) is diminished, and you have to deal damage i.e. draw blood to heal yourself effectively. That would make sense conceptually for TES Vampires, not this backwards way where they have us spend health to deal damage.
I wonder where in the vampires of Morrowind, Oblivion or Skyrim say they don't regenerate health. ONLY in Skyrim you can regenerate health naturally, and even if the vampires have disabled regeneration WHILE IT'S DAYTIME, they also have no stamina or Magicka regeneration...BUT WAIT, there's more; Not only you're not talking about the same disease(cause you are talking about SANGUINAE VAMPIRIS, and this is NOXIPHILIA SANGUIVORIA), but it is actually stated that vampires don't suffer negatives during daytime, but instead become super powerful during the night.
"If it is contracted, the blood of uninfected specimens is required for sustenance. Unlike those infected with Sanguinare Vampiris, for example, victims of Noxiphilic Sanguivoria are not weakened or otherwise harmed by sunlight; and they are instead strengthened during the night. As such, their regenerative abilities are greatly enhanced at night, and they become immensely courageous and resistant to pain during the darker hours"
In Morrowind, as a Vampire, you can't regenerate health by sleeping or resting - which would be the normal way to regenerate health for mortals in that game, outside of potions and spells.
Of course, that's PORPHYRIC HEMOPHILIA. Each game has it's own strain because they are all a bit different mechanically, but there is precedent in TES for Vampires to have diffiulty regenerating health. It's not nonsensical per se is what I'm saying.
In ESO, all the original texts that describe Vampirism are kind of obsolete since the overhaul, for example there are no longer any drawbacks or bonuses depending on the time of day.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.0 -
TX12001rwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Thecompton73 wrote: »TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »I had an idea for how the existing system could be enhanced to feel powerful, remove Strike from Shadows as it cannot be procced easily by a lot of builds, instead replace it with the Stage 4 Passive Unnatural Movement (Your weaker stages will be the running and hiding stages where as the stronger stages will be about combat)
Stage 1: Dark Stalker Remains the Same
Stage 2: Unnatural Movement Remains the Same but Moved to Stage 2 from Stage 4
Stage 3: Undeath Remains the Same
Stage 4: Blood Frenzy Increase weapon and spell damage by 60 points for 10 seconds whenever you kill a creature, this effect can stack 5 times up to 300 Weapon and Spell damage
The existing Blood Frenzy ability would be replaced by the following ability.
Blood Swarm The Vampire commands a Swarm of Bats in the targeted area for 8 seconds that deal XXX damage every second, the swarm grows in strength increasing in damage by 50% for every enemy in the swarm up to a maximum of 250%
Morph 1: Empowering Swarm Now applies Minor magickasteal and Minor lifesteal to targets within the Swarm.
Morph 2: Razor Swarm Now applies Major Breach to targets within the Swarm
The Mist Form ability will be completely altered so it works again in PvE and is less OP in PvP and become as ZOS insists it is, an escape ability.
Mist Form Applies Major Expedition, Major Protection and grants immunity to Snares and Immobilizations
Morph 1: Shadow Mist After the Mist Effects ends gain 300 weapon and spell damage for 3 seconds.
Morph 2: Regenerating Mist Recover 300 Health and Stamina every second while in Mist Form.
The Perfect Scion morph is viewed by many as a useless morph, however just looking at it as a morph makes you forget how powerful the ultimate it is attached to really is, so why not make it that in addition to it's existing effects it also allows you to stay transformed for 30 seconds up from 20 seconds
So you wanna make Vamp kill 5 enemies in less than 10 seconds to get the same amount of wd/sd you get now from making use of the stage 4 passive to get it in 3 seconds or instantly via cloak or an invisibility pot? No thanks
And how many classes can cloak?0 -
Freelancer_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think the big challenge you ram into with changing vampirism is that it's design is so cheap at the early stages that any build can be a vamp without much of an issue and so expensive at the late stages that people are quite min max heavy around it.
As a result, you ram into the issue of making vampirism overpowered or breaking loads of builds if you change much and as many of the builds are PvP you are going to hear a ton about it.
Thus, unless you are doing a major overhaul, it might be worth leaving alone.
The lack of regen is really annoying in stage four but, it's kind of balanced by being able to just run past nearly everything in stealth.
Personally, I'm a fan of having the Vampire have more health regen but, receive less healing from non-vampiric sources from a story perspective. To me, Lamae Bal unique thing is regenerating despite being burned and as being spawn of Lamae Bal we should reflect that to a degree.
I think you'd likely need to change Perfected Scion a bit if you wanted it to let you regenerate ultimate/stay in that form for longer as it currently wipes out many of the downsides of vampirism.
When I was using Dragonguard + Vampire Lord+ Chain the only thing really stopping me from keeping it up all of the time in combat was the lack of regen.
0 -
Kurague✭✭✭TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »I had an idea for how the existing system could be enhanced to feel powerful, remove Strike from Shadows as it cannot be procced easily by a lot of builds, instead replace it with the Stage 4 Passive Unnatural Movement (Your weaker stages will be the running and hiding stages where as the stronger stages will be about combat)
Stage 1: Dark Stalker Remains the Same
Stage 2: Unnatural Movement Remains the Same but Moved to Stage 2 from Stage 4
Stage 3: Undeath Remains the Same
Stage 4: Blood Frenzy Increase weapon and spell damage by 60 points for 10 seconds whenever you kill a creature, this effect can stack 5 times up to 300 Weapon and Spell damage
The existing Blood Frenzy ability would be replaced by the following ability.
Blood Swarm The Vampire commands a Swarm of Bats in the targeted area for 8 seconds that deal XXX damage every second, the swarm grows in strength increasing in damage by 50% for every enemy in the swarm up to a maximum of 250%
Morph 1: Empowering Swarm Now applies Minor magickasteal and Minor lifesteal to targets within the Swarm.
Morph 2: Razor Swarm Now applies Major Breach to targets within the Swarm
The Mist Form ability will be completely altered so it works again in PvE and is less OP in PvP and become as ZOS insists it is, an escape ability.
Mist Form Applies Major Expedition, Major Protection and grants immunity to Snares and Immobilizations
Morph 1: Shadow Mist After the Mist Effects ends gain 300 weapon and spell damage for 3 seconds.
Morph 2: Regenerating Mist Recover 300 Health and Stamina every second while in Mist Form.
The Perfect Scion morph is viewed by many as a useless morph, however just looking at it as a morph makes you forget how powerful the ultimate it is attached to really is, so why not make it that in addition to it's existing effects it also allows you to stay transformed for 30 seconds up from 20 seconds
While I still prefer my take on the vampire, I like your version too, as long as they remove the negative regeneration.
The negative regeneration makes sense conceptually - as your vampiric powers grow, your mortal powers become more taxing. The problem is that pretty much all our powers are mortal, and the vampiric ones that could replace them suck. So I'd prefer if they first made all the skills fun and effective to use before axing the whole regeneration concept.
As for diminished health regen, that has been part of TES Vampires at least in Daggerfall and Morrowind, so I don't see why you'd say it doesn't make sense. At least we don't get sun damage while walking in daylight, lol.
What I would have done in regards to healing, is to make the Ring of the Pale Order effect a base passive for Vampires. Frankly I felt it was a damn insult that it was added the same patch as the Vampire overhaul.
So your "natural" health regeneration (and possibly healing received) is diminished, and you have to deal damage i.e. draw blood to heal yourself effectively. That would make sense conceptually for TES Vampires, not this backwards way where they have us spend health to deal damage.
I wonder where in the vampires of Morrowind, Oblivion or Skyrim say they don't regenerate health. ONLY in Skyrim you can regenerate health naturally, and even if the vampires have disabled regeneration WHILE IT'S DAYTIME, they also have no stamina or Magicka regeneration...BUT WAIT, there's more; Not only you're not talking about the same disease(cause you are talking about SANGUINAE VAMPIRIS, and this is NOXIPHILIA SANGUIVORIA), but it is actually stated that vampires don't suffer negatives during daytime, but instead become super powerful during the night.
"If it is contracted, the blood of uninfected specimens is required for sustenance. Unlike those infected with Sanguinare Vampiris, for example, victims of Noxiphilic Sanguivoria are not weakened or otherwise harmed by sunlight; and they are instead strengthened during the night. As such, their regenerative abilities are greatly enhanced at night, and they become immensely courageous and resistant to pain during the darker hours"
In Morrowind, as a Vampire, you can't regenerate health by sleeping or resting - which would be the normal way to regenerate health for mortals in that game, outside of potions and spells.
Of course, that's PORPHYRIC HEMOPHILIA. Each game has it's own strain because they are all a bit different mechanically, but there is precedent in TES for Vampires to have diffiulty regenerating health. It's not nonsensical per se is what I'm saying.
In ESO, all the original texts that describe Vampirism are kind of obsolete since the overhaul, for example there are no longer any drawbacks or bonuses depending on the time of day.
Only in Morrowind you suffer that, so I was wrong in that part, I didn't quite remember well, but in oblivion it has no effects in that department, and in Skyrim you can't regenerate only in daytime, you can do anything the rest of the time.
In all honestly, it's also just bad design to handicap the players in such a mechanical way. Life regen is a Quality of life feature, not an advanced combat feature. I doubt anyone would argue that health regen is overpowered in any way. Vamp has too many negatives, and too few positives to bring into the table. It's state is pitiful, it's only a tool for PvP, and something like vampirism should be more flavorful instead of a tool for PvP that also denies you any content outside of it for that character.
Also, the book might be dated, but they haven't changed it at all, and the old vampires also had negative regeneration. Nothing really changed, besides ZMO eliminating the saving grace passive of vampires, the ability to regenerate while in tier 4.2
