alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

Fact: ZOS are required to make a profit by shareholders

Wrong. They have never been a public company so no shareholders. Maybe they are a bit of one now thanks to the Microsoft buyout but I'm not even sure how that works with respect to ZOS operations themselves. They're certainly not listed independent of MS on the stock exchange.

Semantics, the requirement for them to make a profit is still there so my comment stands.

And I would have let you get away with it if you hadn't been so emphatic by preceding it with "Fact:"

Businesses wanting to make a profit is additionally a painfully obvious thing that doesn't need saying, much less emphasized as "Fact:" as if you were talking to a first grade class.

Lostar wrote: »

No one has forgotten. I haven't. I have 13k seals because, as an example, I know once I spend a single seal that 16k mount I've been waiting for will finally drop and it will take me ANOTHER WHOLE YEAR of DAILY commitment to complete all three endeavors and the weekly every week to earn the 16K needed to get A SINGLE mount.

It is a bandaid on a bullet wound done only to kowtow to Microsoft's demands who did it only to (try and) avoid legal entanglements once the US becomes as wise to loot box legalities as Belgium and other countries have.

This is a very good point about seals: because it takes almost year of daily commitment (which is huge in the first place) to get the 16k seals, people who have their hearts set on a specific mount are afraid to spend them because that mount could drop afterwards, and they wouldn't be able to buy it. The fact that ZOS re-releases past crates infrequently, and doesn't cycle through them often is another layer of manipulation, so that if someone wants something and is out of seals they will have to turn to crowns to buy crates. Plus, the seals made a lot of things in the crates more expensive: the costumes, polys, personalities, all jumping tier from 100 gems to 400 gems, there are less items that can be turned to gems, the gem yield is also less. Also, don't forget that now they add more gem exclusive stuff to the store, encouraging more crate sales, so people get gems to buy them. When they introduced the seals, it wasn't out of good faith, it was because they had to, but they made absolutely sure they wouldn't lose any revenue over them, and actually made things worse even for people who did buy crates regularly, by making everything in the crates more expensive.

Jaimeh wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

No one has forgotten. I haven't. I have 13k seals because, as an example, I know once I spend a single seal that 16k mount I've been waiting for will finally drop and it will take me ANOTHER WHOLE YEAR of DAILY commitment to complete all three endeavors and the weekly every week to earn the 16K needed to get A SINGLE mount.

It is a bandaid on a bullet wound done only to kowtow to Microsoft's demands who did it only to (try and) avoid legal entanglements once the US becomes as wise to loot box legalities as Belgium and other countries have.

This is a very good point about seals: because it takes almost year of daily commitment (which is huge in the first place) to get the 16k seals, people who have their hearts set on a specific mount are afraid to spend them because that mount could drop afterwards, and they wouldn't be able to buy it. The fact that ZOS re-releases past crates infrequently, and doesn't cycle through them often is another layer of manipulation, so that if someone wants something and is out of seals they will have to turn to crowns to buy crates. Plus, the seals made a lot of things in the crates more expensive: the costumes, polys, personalities, all jumping tier from 100 gems to 400 gems, there are less items that can be turned to gems, the gem yield is also less. Also, don't forget that now they add more gem exclusive stuff to the store, encouraging more crate sales, so people get gems to buy them. When they introduced the seals, it wasn't out of good faith, it was because they had to, but they made absolutely sure they wouldn't lose any revenue over them, and actually made things worse even for people who did buy crates regularly, by making everything in the crates more expensive.

These are some amazing points I’ve overlooked! Thank you for pointing them out!!

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

Fact: ZOS are required to make a profit by shareholders

Wrong. They have never been a public company so no shareholders. Maybe they are a bit of one now thanks to the Microsoft buyout but I'm not even sure how that works with respect to ZOS operations themselves. They're certainly not listed independent of MS on the stock exchange.

Semantics, the requirement for them to make a profit is still there so my comment stands.

And I would have let you get away with it if you hadn't been so emphatic by preceding it with "Fact:"

Businesses wanting to make a profit is additionally a painfully obvious thing that doesn't need saying, much less emphasized as "Fact:" as if you were talking to a first grade class.

Using "Fact:" refers to other posters in the thread using the same method, did you respond the same way to them.

Still waiting for your alternative method for businesses to replace the income from banned lootboxes or do you not have an alternative and just expect them to lose money?

Well since you bring it up, how about direct sales instead of loot boxes? [snip]

You mean direct sales of cosmetics, mounts etc? already in the game, you buy the crowns then the item. I suppose they could completely remove the ability to buy the loot crates from the store and increase the price of crowns both in the real money store buying the crowns in the first place and then increase the cost of items in the store as well. That gets rid of lootboxes, some lost income from lootboxes is retreived so everyone would be happy right? After all, roleplayers buying cosmetics would spend the same as people buying lootboxes right?

Yup. Exactly like that. You have a problem with direct sales? As to increased prices... have you seen the books? Are they just barely breaking even with the current prices + loot boxes?

Do share if you have the details.

[edited to remove quote]

I don't like loot crates either, but I disagree mega hard with the whole "roleplayers are victims and always ignored" vibe that I get from the OP and other posts.

Radiant apex mounts are frequently brought up as the prime example for crates being horrible towards roleplayers, but who even uses those in RP? Most roleplayers I know want regular down to earth mounts instead. I at least like to look like my character blends into the setting, instead of looking like some celestial sparklepig.

As a roleplayer myself, I usually buy a pack of crates when a new season comes out and I like the items. Like I said, I don't like loot crates either and I much prefer regular store purchases (or no purchases at all). But I never feel that radiant apex pressure, since most items I am interested in can be collected with a normal pack purchase + endeavours much faster. I usually get all the stuff I really want from a season, with that single pack. Sometimes I don't, but tough luck for me in that case, I'll just wait for them to come around again.

So yeah I am not a fan of crates, but I also don't feel specifically victimized and oppressed as a roleplayer, like not at all. I think people who chase radiant apex mounts are affected by this much more.

Besides I think the best way for ZOS to actually milk roleplayers specifically is to just throw everything they have on their store, available for purchase all the time. Since roleplayers tend to like making new characters to roleplay with, and at least in my case, new characters make you consider cosmetics that you wouldn't have considered before.

Roztlin45 wrote: »

Your all are making way to much out of this. If you don't like loot boxes then avoid them. Save up endeavors and buy what you want with that. I have never seen anything pay to win and or force anyone to buy. If you can't stop your self then a video game is the least of your problems. Case closed

Put everything from crates for direct sale in the store, no chance/RNG involved, case closed but better for all [snip]

[edited for bashing]

A system based on a double or triple currency layer with items gated behind stark rng is designed for one thing: to get the most money out of you before you get what you want. There is enough literature about these systems.

In an ideal world, the store would have each item for a stable, open price in your local currency. But if that was the case, and they had each item for what it takes, on average, to get each item through crates, they would have to sell Radiants for thousands of dollars. I imagine people wouldn't be too happy about it.

Pepegrillos wrote: »

A system based on a double or triple currency layer with items gated behind stark rng is designed for one thing: to get the most money out of you before you get what you want. There is enough literature about these systems.

In an ideal world, the store would have each item for a stable, open price in your local currency. But if that was the case, and they had each item for what it takes, on average, to get each item through crates, they would have to sell Radiants for thousands of dollars. I imagine people wouldn't be too happy about it.

They used to have mounts for sale in the store before the crates were introduced, and they didn't cost thousands of dollars. However, the modus operandi in this game with a lot of features is that they introduce them in a benign manner and once people are hooked, they make them increasingly monetized/player-unfriendly/predatory as time moves. Same with crates: they waited till players were invested in the game and the RP of their characters, and then they introduced crates; suddenly all nice items are put there, with only crumbles making their way to store. They saw that some players were willing to spend a lot of money on them, and it's more profitable than direct sales, so they keep the model [snip]: 1) they introduce radiant apex mounts--again suddenly all the super intricate designs are locked behind even worse RNG (<0.1%), and the apex mounts become more mundane in order to make radiants even more desirable. 2) They introduce gem exclusive items, bringing in a second layer of currency that obscures the real price of things and is also based on RNG. Let's say a polymorph in the store was sold for 3k crowns, and now we have a polymorph costing 600 gems, in order to get 600 gems you need to buy crates costing a lot more than 3k crowns (probably 10k+) and also count on RNG to get favourable conversions and gem yield. So even though gem exclusives are sold directly in the store, the layer of currency masks a huge price increase. 2) They introduce seals to deal with legal complications, and in order to make up for the fact that they might lose revenue from those who bought even a few crates and who now will rely on seals, they make items in crates more expensive, like 400 gems costumes, etc., plus, the introduce furnishings in crates for 40-100 gems, that are not collectible and can only be used once, to entice the housing fans as well. [snip]

[edited for bashing]

I beg everyone performing mental gymnastics trying to defend Crown Crates, to realise there are scientific papers written on this very issue that you can read online. Taking what evidence clears up, the only logical conclusion is that there's no ethical way to have lootboxes in a video game and they should all be banned. And there's the fact that they are specifically targeted towards the neurodivergent and those with gambling issues, which is absolutely despicable and can't be defended. Please do your research before posting the weirdest, uninformed takes on the Internet about something that's an extremely serious topic.

Arrodisia wrote: »

Why should all responsible adults who like their items delivered as surprises lose this feature because a small few can't control their gambling habit

Empathy. Ethics. Basic morals. Stop having their head shoved so deeply inside certain place... You name it, there's why, pick one. For those whose answer is none: Do better and work on yourself.

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

There was such a time where gaming was a bastion from the worst of it; that the manipulation began and ended from the sales counter after the transaction. Fewer and fewer games are that bastion away from these predatory agendas because indeed,

Every once in a while, I like to think back to the arcades of the 80's. And I see many parallels to modern mobile & f2p gaming.


Had to exchange your cash for can't-use-it-anywhere-else "tokens". And if you spent more at the change machine, you'd get a bonus! ($20 = 80+10 tokens!)

Games designed to kill you within ~5-10m... but you can keep shoving in quarters to get a continue! The original p2w!

edit: oooh, and leaderboards! Gotta get a high score, so you can put your initials up on that high score list!

Games exploiting PvP to get people to pay more (that Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat machine, with two people fighting a single match, at which point someone's lost and a new token has to be inserted. But hey, there's a crowd around the machine, getting hyped watching the pvp, and lining up their tokens on the machine to challenge the winner. The tokens/hour rate on those things must have been amazing...)

And, of course, these arcades (especially at boardwalks or in amusement parks) went along with the carnival games - like Skee Ball. Keep playing to save up more and more tickets... so you can pay 4000 tickets at the prize counter for some lousy stuffed animal. Or go play the serious (and seriously rigged) carnival games, like hoop toss or throwing the baseball at the (weighted) milk bottles.

Ooh, and crane games! Keep shoving in money, you'll get that stuffed animal for your girlfriend any time now. Any time.


Yeah, this modern greed is nothing like the good old days.

And you can still do all of that stuff (coin-op arcade machines have gotten way more expensive than one quarter now, though).
None of it has been banned.

kargen27 wrote: »

Malthorne wrote: »

Crown crates are 100% gambling. The sooner the US and EU implement loot box legislation to ban this predatory practice, the better.

No they are not as you get exactly what you expect to get. They might be unethical or predatory (I don't believe so) for different reasons and personalities who can have a problem with gambling might experience similar problems with the boxes but no, they are not gambling. That is why they are not regulated by the same laws as actual gambling.

I see removing crown crates as punishing all for the actions of the few. We are all suppose to be responsible adults.

Crown Crates are the exact dictionary definition of gambling, [snip] lol. At casinos, you also change real money into that house's tokens to use at their casino. It's still gambling JFC. Every single one of your arguments here is full of holes. Just because you are ok with it (I am too, and think the Crown Crates are fine as is) doesn't change the worldwide, well established, accepted definition of gambling.

[edited for baiting]

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

There was such a time where gaming was a bastion from the worst of it; that the manipulation began and ended from the sales counter after the transaction. Fewer and fewer games are that bastion away from these predatory agendas because indeed,

Every once in a while, I like to think back to the arcades of the 80's. And I see many parallels to modern mobile & f2p gaming.


Had to exchange your cash for can't-use-it-anywhere-else "tokens". And if you spent more at the change machine, you'd get a bonus! ($20 = 80+10 tokens!)

Games designed to kill you within ~5-10m... but you can keep shoving in quarters to get a continue! The original p2w!

edit: oooh, and leaderboards! Gotta get a high score, so you can put your initials up on that high score list!

Games exploiting PvP to get people to pay more (that Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat machine, with two people fighting a single match, at which point someone's lost and a new token has to be inserted. But hey, there's a crowd around the machine, getting hyped watching the pvp, and lining up their tokens on the machine to challenge the winner. The tokens/hour rate on those things must have been amazing...)

And, of course, these arcades (especially at boardwalks or in amusement parks) went along with the carnival games - like Skee Ball. Keep playing to save up more and more tickets... so you can pay 4000 tickets at the prize counter for some lousy stuffed animal. Or go play the serious (and seriously rigged) carnival games, like hoop toss or throwing the baseball at the (weighted) milk bottles.

Ooh, and crane games! Keep shoving in money, you'll get that stuffed animal for your girlfriend any time now. Any time.


Yeah, this modern greed is nothing like the good old days.

I remember those days as well. There is a fallacy here that I think we are not paying attention to. The effort to getting to these places versus the effort of just booting up your computer and spending money. For some, perhaps arcades were more a daily event because of proximity or whatever but for the great majority that was not the case at least for me. Arcades were more of a weekend thing that I would have to spend an hour riding my bike to. Certainly not something I would have been able to do on a school day and get all my homework done. But just how casually we can be enticed into gambling inside our very own homes. That’s an issue. I don’t recall ever having to put quarters into my Nintendo entertainment system…

—————

As for other posters… I don’t see myself as a victim… I think it might be a stretch to call anyone a victim but then again I don’t know other peoples’ circumstances and just how much they are negatively impacted by this so maybe they are victims because of their neurodivergencey being exploited. I don’t pretend to know the struggles of each and everyone of us and can only really speak to my own personal distaste for being coerced into gambling in order to get a specific hairstyle or outfit that I want for my own entertainment as those things are what is far more important to me. Coercion doesn’t make me a victim. The hyperbolic rhetoric some posters here are twisting my words into is rather revealing.

Edit: Edited to fix several auto correct errors as I am typing all of this from my iPad.