Why Loot Boxes ARE an issue

Lostar

edit: if some of the discussion seems disjointed, it is because there have been several deletions made through moderation. Know this while going in. Know as well that I begin using coercion as a word to describe loot crates but later agree that it is an incorrect usage. This is all made from the perspective of an RPer that finds cosmetics essential to their own enjoyment of this game.

In Torulf Jernström's video "Let's Go Whaling" he describes the game community accurately in 4 sub groups:

• Killers
• Achievers
• Explorers
• Socializers

I fall under the socializers and the explorer's subgroups.

Most of my enjoyment of the game does not come from leaderboards. It does not come from gaining every achievement. For me, and many other storytellers/role-players, we have been exploited for years. When games first started trying to normalize P2W tactics, I stood right beside the "Killers" and rose a voice against the game industry that was growing far too greedy. And yet, a deaf ear has turned towards the Socializers when we say "enough". Cosmetics are called "unnecessary".Well, 'Killers' us Roleplayers could have given zero cares about those P2W mechanics but we knew wrong when we saw it. Perhaps this has been overlooked because roleplayers really aren't seen as gamers. We only enjoy the same world space as you and sometimes we dip our toes into Cyro where you get the satisfaction of hunting a great many of us down. Why are we allowing the game industry to divide and exploit us all? Why is it taboo to hold these discussions on game forums; especially those forums that are about games which we love? I still love the game... But I do not love having to GAMBLE to get the things I FIND and MANY OTHERS find necessary to get the kind of enjoyment we need to have equal satisfaction that the killers receive after a hard-won victory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNjI03CGkb4&ab_channel=PocketGamerbiz

kargen27

Crown crates are not gambling. You purchase a crown crate knowing it will give you a minimum number of items. You always get at least that minimum number. Crown crates are no more gambling than trading cards that come with a stick of gum are gambling.
That said I would prefer they got rid of the crown crates and maybe even the crown store altogether and went back to a required subscription to play.

Malthorne

Crown crates are 100% gambling. The sooner the US and EU implement loot box legislation to ban this predatory practice, the better.

Froil

Crates are literally gambling. Yes you are guaranteed a payout every time, but that payout can be very little (bunch of potions/poisons, one of the lowest tier rewards); it is still gambling.

Lostar

Malthorne wrote: »

Crown crates are 100% gambling. The sooner the US and EU implement loot box legislation to ban this predatory practice, the better.

My husband who is a psychologist who I bet knows even more than me about just how deeply harmful these practices are concurs with you!

Skullstachio

How quickly people forget (let alone feign ignorance.) that the endeavor system exists.

Daily endeavors refresh every 24 hours, weekly endeavors are self explanatory (they refresh weekly.)

Completing them and saving up enough endeavors, if there isnt anything worth getting in the current crown crate iteration with endeavors, save them up for another crown crate rotation or when zos brings back an old one for a limited time, there is no cap/limit to how many endeavors can be held at once.

TL:DR: if you don’t like buying crown crates with crowns, simply deal with the endeavor system which, with enough saved, can let you get a specific thing from said crown crate.

WiseSky

As long as it's not P2W it's ok in my book.

Would I like that each thing in the crates is free, Sure why not.

Earnable sure why not.

at least the game is 18+

But every for profit company is there to make a profit and they will do their best to do so.

Wen they introduce stuff like Diablo Immortal then they would have crossed the line.

Till then Fingers crossed and Faith in Mara

Lostar

Skullstachio wrote: »

How quickly people forget (let alone feign ignorance.) that the endeavor system exists.

Daily endeavors refresh every 24 hours, weekly endeavors are self explanatory (they refresh weekly.)

Completing them and saving up enough endeavors, if there isnt anything worth getting in the current crown crate iteration with endeavors, save them up for another crown crate rotation or when zos brings back an old one for a limited time, there is no cap/limit to how many endeavors can be held at once.

TL:DR: if you don’t like buying crown crates with crowns, simply deal with the endeavor system which, with enough saved, can let you get a specific thing from said crown crate.

No one has forgotten. I haven't. I have 13k seals because, as an example, I know once I spend a single seal that 16k mount I've been waiting for will finally drop and it will take me ANOTHER WHOLE YEAR of DAILY commitment to complete all three endeavors and the weekly every week to earn the 16K needed to get A SINGLE mount.

It is a bandaid on a bullet wound done only to kowtow to Microsoft's demands who did it only to (try and) avoid legal entanglements.

Lostar

WiseSky wrote: »

As long as it's not P2W it's ok in my book.

Would I like that each thing in the crates is free, Sure why not.

Earnable sure why not.

at least the game is 18+

But every for profit company is there to make a profit and they will do their best to do so.

Wen they introduce stuff like Diablo Immortal then they would have crossed the line.

Till then Fingers crossed and Faith in Mara

Oh yes. The goal post has moved, killer. Thank you Blizzard for stooping to a new low.. may no other IPs that we love adopt such predatory practices. I would like the crownstore to remain, as well as ESO+ which I subscribe to annually. No exploiting FOMO with "limited time" offers. I, and many others, demand gambling be removed.

The goal post is always being moved. 10 years ago, gamers would bawk at what the great many don't bat an eye at today. We are being conditioned to be milked on the macro level as a gaming community.

kargen27

Malthorne wrote: »

Crown crates are 100% gambling. The sooner the US and EU implement loot box legislation to ban this predatory practice, the better.

No they are not as you get exactly what you expect to get. They might be unethical or predatory (I don't believe so) for different reasons and personalities who can have a problem with gambling might experience similar problems with the boxes but no, they are not gambling. That is why they are not regulated by the same laws as actual gambling.

I see removing crown crates as punishing all for the actions of the few. We are all suppose to be responsible adults.

Lostar

kargen27 wrote: »

Malthorne wrote: »

Crown crates are 100% gambling. The sooner the US and EU implement loot box legislation to ban this predatory practice, the better.

No they are not as you get exactly what you expect to get. They might be unethical or predatory (I don't believe so) for different reasons and personalities who can have a problem with gambling might experience similar problems with the boxes but no, they are not gambling. That is why they are not regulated by the same laws as actual gambling.

I see removing crown crates as punishing all for the actions of the few. We are all suppose to be responsible adults.

Define gambling.

Lostar

Merriam-Webster definition of gambling
: the practice or activity of betting : the practice of risking money or other stakes in a game or bet. <check>

Malthorne

kargen27 wrote: »

Malthorne wrote: »

Crown crates are 100% gambling. The sooner the US and EU implement loot box legislation to ban this predatory practice, the better.

No they are not as you get exactly what you expect to get. They might be unethical or predatory (I don't believe so) for different reasons and personalities who can have a problem with gambling might experience similar problems with the boxes but no, they are not gambling. That is why they are not regulated by the same laws as actual gambling.

I see removing crown crates as punishing all for the actions of the few. We are all suppose to be responsible adults.

Crown crates are literally a game of chance to get what want. You are risking your crowns for a very small opportunity to “win”something of value to you. Being guaranteed to get useless junk doesn’t change that. And the very fact that people with addictive personalities or people that have addictive tendencies fall victim to these types of monetization practices makes them predatory. ZOS understands this [snip]

[edited for minor bashing]

Nestor

Yes, the Crates are a gamble, if you want the Shineys. Anything you want to get, you can get from the store directly. Or, Endevours.

So, not Required Gambling.

kargen27

Lostar wrote: »

Merriam-Webster definition of gambling
: the practice or activity of betting : the practice of risking money or other stakes in a game or bet. <check>

Exactly. So crates are not gambling as you are not risking real money to purchase the crates. You purchase crowns with your real money. There is no variable outcome in the amount of crowns you get for your money. You can then spend the crowns on crates again knowing exactly how many crates you are receiving and the minimum number of items that will be found in each crate.
By your definition that is not gambling.

Lostar

Nestor wrote: »

Yes, the Crates are a gamble, if you want the Shineys. Anything you want to get, you can get from the store directly. Or, Endevours.

So, not Required Gambling.

If it was not such a huge time investment with the endeavors, I'd agree with you. Doing the math; as a rough estimate since endeavor rewards fluctuate daily and weekly so using the median of 12x3 for dailies and 225 for weekly (ignoring the April compensation spike) that gives us a rounded sum of 24k seals yearly and that is only if you do all 3 endeavors every day for that year, all weeklies for an entire year... not missing one.

Lostar

kargen27 wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

Merriam-Webster definition of gambling
: the practice or activity of betting : the practice of risking money or other stakes in a game or bet. <check>

Exactly. So crates are not gambling as you are not risking real money to purchase the crates. You purchase crowns with your real money. There is no variable outcome in the amount of crowns you get for your money. You can then spend the crowns on crates again knowing exactly how many crates you are receiving and the minimum number of items that will be found in each crate.
By your definition that is not gambling.

Crowns are bought with cash just as chips in a casino are bought with cash.

kargen27

I'm not arguing that crates might not be a problem for people with a personality that lends towards addictions. They certainly can be addictive. They are not gambling.
I don't feel they need be restricted to all because the actions of the few. Again that responsible adult thing.

Elsonso

I had not watched that video in years.

The video is interesting in that it collects a lot of psychological methods in a single place, focused on gaming. There is really nothing in the video that is new, or a revelation of the unknown. The concepts presented are NOT only used by video games.

When I first saw it, I wondered who he thought his audience was, and how many people were actually there. It did not feel like a useful informational session. It isn't really a presentation where I think experienced game designers would learn something.

The most valuable reason for a player to watch this is just to become familiar with the techniques. Players can learn to recognize these techniques when they encounter of them in games, and other places in their lives, so that they can make educated decisions knowing how this stuff works.

As for how this relates to ESO... yes, many of the concepts are used here. Once you learn to recognize them, you will find them in both the monetized, and non-monetized, portion of the game. The video is about monetization, the concepts are not restricted to it.

Lostar

kargen27 wrote: »

I'm not arguing that crates might not be a problem for people with a personality that lends towards addictions. They certainly can be addictive. They are not gambling.
I don't feel they need be restricted to all because the actions of the few. Again that responsible adult thing.

How about adults who are atypical? You know, they exist right? Like Autistic adults? Adults who do not have the prowess to navigate the world with such ease. And yet, there are other predatory practices like scamming grandma because she doesn't know Microsoft wouldn't have any interest in her Google Play Gift Cards, and no one has an issue shunning those scammers?? Grandpa has been around for years.. he should know better, right??! How about them? You know... you're right.. we shouldn't bubble wrap society.. BUT WE SHOULD ban practices that were CONSTRUCTED from the ground up to be PREDATORY. Watch the video I posted. It is exactly what Zenimax Online Studios has been doing. Watch it.. and THEN tell me what you really think.

Lostar

Elsonso wrote: »

I had not watched that video in years.

The video is interesting in that it collects a lot of psychological methods in a single place, focused on gaming. There is really nothing in the video that is new, or a revelation of the unknown. The concepts presented are NOT only used by video games.

When I first saw it, I wondered who he thought his audience was, and how many people were actually there. It did not feel like a useful informational session. It isn't really a presentation where I think experienced game designers would learn something.

The most valuable reason for a player to watch this is just to become familiar with the techniques. Players can learn to recognize these techniques when they encounter of them in games, and other places in their lives, so that they can make educated decisions knowing how this stuff works.

As for how this relates to ESO... yes, many of the concepts are used here. Once you learn to recognize them, you will find them in both the monetized, and non-monetized, portion of the game. The video is about monetization, the concepts are not restricted to it.

Indeed, none of it is new. There's plenty to look into; Albert Lasker possibly being the father of it all. But Asmongold's video this month where he revisited this video due to Blizzard's insanely greedy monetization got me to look critically at Zenimax, once more... as I have referenced this video in this forum years back as well. It is a discussion we must continue to have until we win our day in court against loot box gambling.

Investors make a killing over the passion of artists... I do wonder what Zenimax Studio's art department thinks.. and why are the artists always the first to get laid off? They're the ones that visually conceptualize the world spaces we are enthralled by. If the artists got a FAIR percentage of the loot box gains, I would shut my mouth.. but I doubt they do. No transparency so, who can know..

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom

Sorry but crown grates are NOT gambling. I know exactly how much I'm paying to acquire items from crates.

The odds are here.

Yes, it's hundreds of dollars per crate season and I'm perfectly fine with that.

Elsonso

Lostar wrote: »

Indeed, none of it is new. There's plenty to look into; Albert Lasker possibly being the father of it all. But Asmongold's video this month where he revisited this video due to Blizzard's insanely greedy monetization got me to look critically at Zenimax, once more... as I have referenced this video in this forum years back as well. It is a discussion we must continue to have until we win our day in court against loot box gambling.

The father of it all died so long ago that their name is lost to time. I actually recognize some of these techniques as being used by a department store in my home town when I was but a little Elsonso. Even applied to gaming, much of this is common, and certainly predates anyone here on the forums. When applied to video games, I think the main issue is that they are much more alluring because of how people conceptualize video game worlds.

That said, I do agree that loot boxes as we know them must die. Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff. Say NO to Crown Crates.

Lostar

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Sorry but crown grates are NOT gambling. I know exactly how much I'm paying to acquire items from crates.

The odds are here.

Yes, it's hundreds of dollars per crate season and I'm perfectly fine with that.

Is the lottery gambling? Scratch off tickets? They also have their odds of winning written on the back of their tickets. It doesn't matter if you as a single person are perfectly fine throwing hundreds of dollars at the crownstore per crate season. What matters is if this is a predatory practice. Yes. Yes, it is.

Lostar

The same people who probably look at their local fast-food joint and go "well it's a gamble whether I get fresh or cold fries" are the same who find it so difficult to call loot crates gambling.

bmnoble

I am confused how are the crates pay to win, nothing in the crates makes you a better player its all cosmetics or consumables, you don't need any of it to be able to play the game.

Lostar wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I'm not arguing that crates might not be a problem for people with a personality that lends towards addictions. They certainly can be addictive. They are not gambling.
I don't feel they need be restricted to all because the actions of the few. Again that responsible adult thing.

How about adults who are atypical? You know, they exist right? Like Autistic adults? Adults who do not have the prowess to navigate the world with such ease. And yet, there are other predatory practices like scamming grandma because she doesn't know Microsoft wouldn't have any interest in her Google Play Gift Cards, and no one has an issue shunning those scammers?? Grandpa has been around for years.. he should know better, right??! How about them? You know... you're right.. we shouldn't bubble wrap society.. BUT WE SHOULD ban practices that were CONSTRUCTED from the ground up to be PREDATORY. Watch the video I posted. It is exactly what Zenimax Online Studios has been doing. Watch it.. and THEN tell me what you really think.

I am sorry but if someone has that little self control they should not be playing an online game with a cash shop. That goes for anyone young or old if you cannot prioritize your household bills over some shiny thing in a video game you should not be playing a game with in game purchases at all or at the very least have a guardian controlling their ability to make purchases.

Even if for arguments sake everything in those crates was in the crown store for fixed amounts of crowns, those people who are unable to avoid the compulsion to have every shiny thing are still going to blow through a large amount of their budgets buying all that stuff, if you get rid of the crates the prices of everything in the store will be adjusted to compensate for the lost income.

Kiralyn2000

Malthorne wrote: »

Crown crates Killing bosses is literally a game of chance to get what want. You are risking your crowns very-valuable time for a very small opportunity to “win”something of value to you. Being guaranteed to get useless junk doesn’t change that. And the very fact that people with addictive personalities or people that have addictive tendencies fall victim to these types of monetization randomization practices makes them predatory.

Seriously, though - if someone has the type of personality that they gotta keep rolling those dice until they get what they want, damn the money/lack of sleep/missing work/etc, random loot of all kinds (boss kills, VMA clears, treasure chests, rare world drops, etc) will pull those same strings.

WiseSky

Lostar wrote: »

WiseSky wrote: »

As long as it's not P2W it's ok in my book.

Would I like that each thing in the crates is free, Sure why not.

Earnable sure why not.

at least the game is 18+

But every for profit company is there to make a profit and they will do their best to do so.

Wen they introduce stuff like Diablo Immortal then they would have crossed the line.

Till then Fingers crossed and Faith in Mara

Oh yes. The goal post has moved, killer. Thank you Blizzard for stooping to a new low.. may no other IPs that we love adopt such predatory practices. I would like the crownstore to remain, as well as ESO+ which I subscribe to annually. No exploiting FOMO with "limited time" offers. I, and many others, demand gambling be removed.

The goal post is always being moved. 10 years ago, gamers would bawk at what the great many don't bat an eye at today. We are being conditioned to be milked on the macro level as a gaming community.

Did you just refer to me as a "Killer" ?

There are many studies about "The Harmful Effects of Labeling People, Ourselves and Others", they usually make individuals see the world through a rigid lenses and people fall in-between being back or white , without any nuance of their complexities or any desire to understand them.

The only thing tieing us to the label "gamer" in this context is that we both presumably play ESO, I doubt we have the same definition of the meaning of that labeling word.

The goal post is always being moved when we enter in conversations with other individuals as everyone has different goals, values and beliefs.

If someone feels like they are being exploited and FOMOed and Milked on the macro level, not everyone also has those same feelings or beliefs as you might have.

You could be coming from the point of view that you are coming to Save us, as you are now informed where we may not be, and changing our points of views and paths is actually for our own good.

But the bottom line might be this...

What is your solution to the for Profit Gaming Complex without any shareholders at the table dictating the bottom line, but instead the main goal is the best game possible for "Gamers"?

here is a Loot Crate Simulator for people to try out that I made for them to see the feel of buying crates

Kiralyn2000

WiseSky wrote: »

Did you just refer to me as a "Killer" ?

No, he referred to you by a nickname/etc, like "buddy", "chief", "sport", "bub", "amigo", "bro", etc.

(https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/334424/is-there-a-word-for-colloquial-forms-of-address)

Lostar

WiseSky wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

WiseSky wrote: »

As long as it's not P2W it's ok in my book.

Would I like that each thing in the crates is free, Sure why not.

Earnable sure why not.

at least the game is 18+

But every for profit company is there to make a profit and they will do their best to do so.

Wen they introduce stuff like Diablo Immortal then they would have crossed the line.

Till then Fingers crossed and Faith in Mara

Oh yes. The goal post has moved, killer. Thank you Blizzard for stooping to a new low.. may no other IPs that we love adopt such predatory practices. I would like the crownstore to remain, as well as ESO+ which I subscribe to annually. No exploiting FOMO with "limited time" offers. I, and many others, demand gambling be removed.

The goal post is always being moved. 10 years ago, gamers would bawk at what the great many don't bat an eye at today. We are being conditioned to be milked on the macro level as a gaming community.

Did you just refer to me as a "Killer" ?

There are many studies about "The Harmful Effects of Labeling People, Ourselves and Others", they usually make individuals see the world through a rigid lenses and people fall in-between being back or white , without any nuance of their complexities or any desire to understand them.

The only thing tieing us to the label "gamer" in this context is that we both presumably play ESO, I doubt we have the same definition of the meaning of that labeling word.

The goal post is always being moved when we enter in conversations with other individuals as everyone has different goals, values and beliefs.

If someone feels like they are being exploited and FOMOed and Milked on the macro level, not everyone also has those same feelings or beliefs as you might have.

You could be coming from the point of view that you are coming to Save us, as you are now informed where we may not be, and changing our points of views and paths is actually for our own good.

But the bottom line might be this...

What is your solution to the for Profit Gaming Complex without any shareholders at the table dictating the bottom line, but instead the main goal is the best game possible for "Gamers"?

here is a Loot Crate Simulator for people to try out that I made for them to see the feel of buying crates

If you read the original post you would understand the reference I was making. Yes.. it was a generic label and I was using it cheekily. Not seriously. It hasn't been the RPers who defend loot boxes as not gambling.. but those who are against P2W because their gaming focus is on .. well.. the game. Climbing leaderboards or beating the next boss or whatever. So I cheekily called you a "Killer" in reference to the video and the OP.

I come to this in not saving us all... I know people who are not invested in cosmetics like us RPers are could care less.. just as I could care less if they added a P2W mechanic in the game.. not anymore. I use to. But RPers have been abandoned and dismissed because our cosmetics are not essential to YOU and YOUR playstyle.

I fight not for YOU. I fight for ME. For MY enjoyment of this game being tarnished everytime I see a really useful cosmetic in a crown crate. One that would blow my next story arch session up to new levels just as much as it would give you all those easy kills if you could only pay to win. But I also speak up for those role players like myself who for years have been negatively affected because we are forced into GAMBLING if we are going to get that next aesthetic that will immerse us into our RP experiences. It's enough that we pay over $100 for some of the houses (which I have done gladly several times over because at least it is NOT gambling and I understand and appreciate the server load it must impact especially when I furnish that place up). But continuing to put not useful for YOU but VERY USEFUL FOR US cosmetics into a gambling system is harmful. I DO NOT want to gamble to get that hairstyle. And I already mentioned endeavors (CTRL+F "endeavors" because I'm not repeating myself again).

Lostar

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Malthorne wrote: »

Crown crates Killing bosses is literally a game of chance to get what want. You are risking your crowns very-valuable time for a very small opportunity to “win”something of value to you. Being guaranteed to get useless junk doesn’t change that. And the very fact that people with addictive personalities or people that have addictive tendencies fall victim to these types of monetization randomization practices makes them predatory.

Seriously, though - if someone has the type of personality that they gotta keep rolling those dice until they get what they want, damn the money/lack of sleep/missing work/etc, random loot of all kinds (boss kills, VMA clears, treasure chests, rare world drops, etc) will pull those same strings.

That is not the point. I have made an attempt to write the issue more clearly in my response post right above this one.