Why Loot Boxes ARE an issue

francesinhalover · June 2022

Endeavors exist, dont see a issue with crates tbh

Syldras · June 2022

BretonMage wrote: »

In any civilised society, people *should* be discouraged from preying on the vulnerable, and predatory practices are specifically designed to manipulate those with a weakness.

Should - which is a reason I consider our beloved civilization a lot less civilized than most people think, superficially. If we go into detail, what industry does not, basically, manipulate? Websites use clickbaits to get views, newspapers use sensationalist headlines to push sales, "fashion" basically lives off telling people that things were "trendy" or "old-fashioned" to make them buy more and more different clothes that they actually don't necessarily need (and don't get me started about the ressources which are wasted and the amounts of trash produced by "fast fashion" that people wear twice and then throw away after 2 or 3 months). Advertisements are generally about creating cravings, about making people want to buy things they didn't think of buying before, often employing manipulative tactics and adressing emotions ("Buy this to attract men/women, to be admired, for the feeling of freedom/adventure/love/comfort/luxury). Of course things should be different, but unfortunately, companies usually find their profits more important than being honest and fair.

What can we do about it? Educate people, that's all in my opinion, as we can't ban everything. And if people know they have especially vulnerable persons in their environment, among friends or family, they should look after them.

Lostar · June 2022

Syldras wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

In any civilised society, people *should* be discouraged from preying on the vulnerable, and predatory practices are specifically designed to manipulate those with a weakness.

Should - which is a reason I consider our beloved civilization a lot less civilized than most people think, superficially. If we go into detail, what industry does not, basically, manipulate? Websites use clickbaits to get views, newspapers use sensationalist headlines to push sales, "fashion" basically lives off telling people that things were "trendy" or "old-fashioned" to make them buy more and more different clothes that they actually don't necessarily need (and don't get me started about the ressources which are wasted and the amounts of trash produced by "fast fashion" that people wear twice and then throw away after 2 or 3 months). Advertisements are generally about creating cravings, about making people want to buy things they didn't think of buying before, often employing manipulative tactics and adressing emotions ("Buy this to attract men/women, to be admired, for the feeling of freedom/adventure/love/comfort/luxury). Of course things should be different, but unfortunately, companies usually find their profits more important than being honest and fair.

What can we do about it? Educate people, that's all in my opinion, as we can't ban everything. And if people know they have especially vulnerable persons in their environment, among friends or family, they should look after them.

There was such a time where gaming was a bastion from the worst of it; that the manipulation began and ended from the sales counter after the transaction. Fewer and fewer games are that bastion away from these predatory agendas because indeed, the world is a vampire. And you’re saying we shouldn’t do what Belgium and others have done concerning loot box monetization? Why? And not every vulnerable person has another in their life that they can depend on, if anyone at all. Autistic adults especially tend to self isolate. And who can blame them…

Lostar · June 2022

francesinhalover wrote: »

Endeavors exist, dont see a issue with crates tbh

This has been discussed here ad nauseam.

Lostar · June 2022

kargen27 wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I'm not arguing that crates might not be a problem for people with a personality that lends towards addictions. They certainly can be addictive. They are not gambling.
I don't feel they need be restricted to all because the actions of the few. Again that responsible adult thing.

How about adults who are atypical? You know, they exist right? Like Autistic adults? Adults who do not have the prowess to navigate the world with such ease. And yet, there are other predatory practices like scamming grandma because she doesn't know Microsoft wouldn't have any interest in her Google Play Gift Cards, and no one has an issue shunning those scammers?? Grandpa has been around for years.. he should know better, right??! How about them? You know... you're right.. we shouldn't bubble wrap society.. BUT WE SHOULD ban practices that were CONSTRUCTED from the ground up to be PREDATORY. Watch the video I posted. It is exactly what Zenimax Online Studios has been doing. Watch it.. and THEN tell me what you really think.

You are comparing illegal activities to scam individuals to legal activities. I watched the video. None of that is new nor exclusive to the gaming industry. McDonalds monopoly game where you can earn a medium fry on your next visit by scratching a piece of paper is an example. Farther back (late 1800s) we had S&H Green Stamps. Businesses are built around two things. Serving their customers and making a profit. Different companies vary as to which is the priority and how much a priority.
I believe if the majority of people can see the offer for what it is and have the information needed to make a sound decision for them then the offer is above board. Companies pick fonts and colors of their containers to entice more buying. Fast food places pick a different color scheme inside than other types of restaurants. In the 70s and 80s the colors were designed to make you not to want to linger. Then mid 90s or so they shifted some to more calming colors. McDonalds realized early on that children often pick where to eat when a family is traveling. That is in part why they had bright colors a clown and all that fun stuff. For the adults a burger is a burger. For kids McDonalds is fun.
Slot machines have lots of lights and bells because people would rather play a machine that has a commotion when they win rather than one that pays more but has nothing special happen. Fear of missing out is a real thing and to that end limited time offers have been around basically as long as we have. Fear of missing out might be why the apple was eaten so long ago in the garden. Two for one sales or punch your card eight times get a free sandwich have both been used for decades.

All that is fine so long as the majority of people have information available to reach what would be considered a reasonable decision. I would hope that adults that need the help to navigate the world get it. I know that isn't always true but we can't take things away from all in an attempt to protect them. That protection should come from the people around them.

Concerning the Mcdonald's monopoly game; that isn't gambling. You are buying a product; the fries. The sticker with it that gives you a tiny chance to win something might be an incentive to some.. but at the end of the day, most people who buy McDonald's fries are just buying McDonald's fries. The chance to win something is just an added bonus.

In short; As an RPer, cosmetics are essential for our playstyle, and our immersion. None of us should be coerced into gambling in the hopes of acquiring a cosmetic that is as useful to us just as the BiS weapon is to a high-end raider.. players have a fit when a game puts a BiS weapon in a cash shop. That cosmetic is OUR P2W... not really but there is a parallel and the gaming industry knows it and they have exploited it for years and will continue to because the RP community is not taken seriously.

I know the cards are not gambling. They are a mechanic to get you to return to McDonalds. If you scratch a winner you can use it on your next visit. It is a way to entice the customer to return. I brought it up to point out that video had nothing new. It just applied tried and true tactics for business to a new form of business (game apps).

What exactly is the point you are trying to make when you attempt to shine light on the fact that these are age old tactics? I know. Most of us do. It doesn’t make it irrelevant. It is still relevant as it’s these age old tactics that have seeped into our bastions away from these age old tactics. Also, gambling is the topic here.. not incentivizing a return visit.

bmnoble · June 2022

BretonMage wrote: »

bmnoble wrote: »

I am sorry but if someone has that little self control they should not be playing an online game with a cash shop. That goes for anyone young or old if you cannot prioritize your household bills over some shiny thing in a video game you should not be playing a game with in game purchases at all or at the very least have a guardian controlling their ability to make purchases.

In any civilised society, people *should* be discouraged from preying on the vulnerable, and predatory practices are specifically designed to manipulate those with a weakness. I know people on the spectrum who really do have issues with impulse control and it can be a nightmare for them and those around them. And it goes without saying that these are people with just as many rights as any other person, including rights to gaming entertainment. To be honest, I'm embarrassed I even have to mention all this.

It's nothing to us players not to have loot crate gambling. I think Endeavors was a great step in the right direction, and ZOS (and other companies) should continue to look into other ways to entice us with shinies without taking advantage of the more vulnerable amongst us.

I am not denying there right to play games, I am saying they should not be here playing if they are at the point where they continue to spend money to the point they start using up what was intended to pay for their utilities or food budget.

You don't take an alcoholic into a bar and demand they stop selling alcohol, because they might be tempted to buy a drink these live service games are intended to make more money off players with in game micro transactions, they don't hide this fact from you when you sign up to play the game. If you can't handle the temptation you need to be removed from the environment it exists in.

My father is one of those people with poor impulse control my mother has handled the finances for decades because if she didn't he would have blown most of his wages on some random crap, they cut up their credit cards long before I was born even now in their old age if he had control of the money their entire pension would be converted into tobacco my siblings and I have had to loan them money over the years to handle my fathers stupidity with money.

And the paragraph below the one you quoted I pointed out even if they put all the shiny stuff from the crates right into the store instead, you would still get people with poor impulse control who feel the need to buy it all, still placing them at financial risk even without the crates.

Only way to completely eliminate the risk to the vulnerable would be to scrap the cash shop, without that source of income we would all either have to subscribe at a high rate or find an alternative to keep the game afloat.

xaraan · June 2022

kargen27 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Crown crates are not gambling. You purchase a crown crate knowing it will give you a minimum number of items. You always get at least that minimum number. Crown crates are no more gambling than trading cards that come with a stick of gum are gambling.
That said I would prefer they got rid of the crown crates and maybe even the crown store altogether and went back to a required subscription to play.

They are gambling. If all it took was to give someone a base reward not worth the money they paid to mean something wasn't gambling, then it would be happening everywhere in the US not just Vegas. There is a reason that loophole doesn't just let people open casinos nationwide and give everyone a nikel for every game they enter and say "look, they always win something, it doesn't count."

The stick of gun/trading card thing is a strawman, which is just a way to get people arguing about a different topic instead of the current one (But I'd be all for banning that sort o crap with cards as well). So back to real topic:

Gambling: "staking of something of value, with consciousness of risk and hope of gain, on the outcome of a game, a contest, or an uncertain event whose result may be determined by chance" -- Crowns = something of value (bought with real world cash). Risk and hope of gain? Are people buying the crates to get the smallest reward possible? Would crates still sell if that's all they had? Or are the taking that risk hoping they will win a valuable item and gain something greater? Are crates a certain event? Do you always know what you will get before you get it, or could you get items of varying value? -- So sounds like gambling to me.

Crowns have no real world value. ZoS is very precise and clear on that being the case. Crowns can only be redeemed for in game items. Again I am not saying there is no problem with crown crates. I am saying they are not legally nor by definition gambling. You spend money to get a set number of crowns that are then used to get a set number of crates. US gambling laws do not apply to crowns or crown crates because they do not meet the legal definition of gambling. Addictive maybe, but not gambling. Just like buying a pack of sports cards is not considered gambling. I know you don't like that comparison but it is exactly the same thing other than with the cards you are spending actual real world currency. You know how many cards you will get just not which cards. Same with crates you know how many items you will get just not what items.
This is actually becoming a popular device for selling things across the business spectrum. You can pay a certain amount each month to get a "surprise" box. A company offers sewing kits. You know you will get something to sew but not exactly what. Another offers fishing equipment. You know you will get an assortment of lures but not what lures.
Crates can prey on people with a certain personality but that doesn't make them gambling.

Edited to add the casino thing doesn't apply because the chips can be redeemed for real world currency. You can cash out when you leave the casino. With crowns they are worth nothing outside the game.

Crowns are paid for with money. (And sold for money, even if they try to stop it) They definitely have value.

BUT, something doesn't have to meet the legal standard of gambling to equal the definition of it.

(Even though I'd argue that without bought and paid for politicians, it would meet the legal standard as well).

Paralyse · June 2022

Calling Crown Crates "predatory" cheapens the value of the word and is an insult to victims of actual predatory practices, of which there are many, that are much more harmful to individuals than risking a couple of dollars on getting 5 random items in a video game.

dmnqwk · June 2022

The first cereal box prize/toy was offered around the turn of the 20th century (over 100 years ago) and required you to purchase 2 boxes of Kellogg's cereal to receive it.

The most obvious part of this endeavour is that the item was offered in addition to what you were paying for - the cereal was the purchase, this was extra. I believe 1945 marked the beginning of blurring the lines, when the item was inserted inside the box as a 'free gift'.

When we look at the McDonalds situation, the food is available 24/7 but the promotion of free stuff occurs for a limited time. During this time, nothing else changes (you can argue the menu changes to coincide, however that is still something they do regardless) so herein the potential to win stuff is not gambling simply because you are paying for the food and receiving the potential to win on top of it. (Yes, there are people who only go to McDonalds to gamble and win because they are incentivized, but McDonalds simply offer something for free on top of what they regularly offer as a way to spend their promotional monies).

We can pretend Loot Crates are similar to either of these, except a better analogy is to compare them to the gambling scenario of Trading Cards - something that's been around for over 150 years (Baseball cards began in 1860 I believe) - and offer the purchaser a chance to obtain something from a specific set of items in exchange for monies. I don't recall people ever creating mass complaints about trading cards, or Panini stickers, that they were the devil's work because people purchased them as a form of entertainment.

The problem occurs when people get frustrated loot crates never give them a lucky item. Calling them a problem is because people are frustrated they dont get to simply purchase what they want in a straightforward manner, without jumping through several hoops and/or paying exorbitant levels of currency to counteract kismet hating on them. You'll often only want 1, maybe 2 items from a single crate and then think to yourself 'well, i want that item so im going to buy some crates and hope I get it. When I don't get it, i'll pop on the forums and call them an issue' even though you know full well the odds of you getting the item are so small you'd be better off with a lottery ticket.

Loot crates are nothing new. We like to suggest they are a new evil practice, but there is no originality in loot crates - it's simply a modern twist on the 150 year old practice of trading cards (I am sure we could go back further and find evidence of the Ancient Romans doing something similar, but I don't think the tv show Plebs is a reliable resource *snicker* ) and while you may be of the opinion they suck - calling them 'an issue' is a bit late.

rootkitronin · June 2022

This community... oh man, the amount of people defending the unethical and predatory practices of a multi billion dollar corporation is astounding. Not to mention the number of people who seem to have utterly failed at reading what the OP was actually writing in there initial post.

You see this all the time though, people fighting tooth and nail to defend a system that provides no benefit to them personally, but absolutely does harm others.

Yes, crown crates are 100% gambling, they are by their very nature a game of chance. You staking/risking something of value on the opportunity to obtain a specific item, or items, the outcome of which is subject to chance.

You can muddy the waters, convolute things, argue semantics or personal responsibility as much as you want, but in the end you're just fooling yourself at the expense of others and doing a huge disservice to your fellow gamers/humans.

BretonMage · June 2022

Syldras wrote: »

Should - which is a reason I consider our beloved civilization a lot less civilized than most people think, superficially. If we go into detail, what industry does not, basically, manipulate? Websites use clickbaits to get views, newspapers use sensationalist headlines to push sales, "fashion" basically lives off telling people that things were "trendy" or "old-fashioned" to make them buy more and more different clothes that they actually don't necessarily need (and don't get me started about the ressources which are wasted and the amounts of trash produced by "fast fashion" that people wear twice and then throw away after 2 or 3 months). Advertisements are generally about creating cravings, about making people want to buy things they didn't think of buying before, often employing manipulative tactics and adressing emotions ("Buy this to attract men/women, to be admired, for the feeling of freedom/adventure/love/comfort/luxury). Of course things should be different, but unfortunately, companies usually find their profits more important than being honest and fair.

What can we do about it? Educate people, that's all in my opinion, as we can't ban everything. And if people know they have especially vulnerable persons in their environment, among friends or family, they should look after them.

I definitely agree there should be better education on these issues. Unfortunately these days you have added complications of time-starved parents and an exponential increase in distractions (mostly digital). So these time-starved parents may not have the resources to dedicate full-time to a vulnerable charge, and this is where I think that it would be in everyone's interest if companies explored other ways to make a profit, that involves less heightened emotional manipulation.

Agree also that other industries are not innocent in this (and add to that the role the fashion industry plays in climate change). I know some people who try to eschew all/most materialism because of this scale of manipulation, but for me, I think it should be approached as a balancing act if possible. I like my shinies.

bmnoble wrote: »

I am not denying there right to play games, I am saying they should not be here playing if they are at the point where they continue to spend money to the point they start using up what was intended to pay for their utilities or food budget.

You don't take an alcoholic into a bar and demand they stop selling alcohol, because they might be tempted to buy a drink these live service games are intended to make more money off players with in game micro transactions, they don't hide this fact from you when you sign up to play the game. If you can't handle the temptation you need to be removed from the environment it exists in.

My father is one of those people with poor impulse control my mother has handled the finances for decades because if she didn't he would have blown most of his wages on some random crap, they cut up their credit cards long before I was born even now in their old age if he had control of the money their entire pension would be converted into tobacco my siblings and I have had to loan them money over the years to handle my fathers stupidity with money.

Oh I'm sorry, yes, it must be a challenge for you and your mother. ESO isn't like a bar though, the main entertainment of ESO is the MMO and the RPG, not the loot boxes. But even with alcohol in bars, I believe most countries have rules regarding sales to minors, and even overly drunk people in some cases. So there are regulations there too.

I don't know if an outright ban is desirable, but we could do worse than look into regulations, just as countries have done with bars and casinos.

tomfant · June 2022

Of course it is gambling. You pay real money and get an uncertain amount of just virtual things. You don't even get full ownership, just the right to use the stuff ingame. And when the servers go dark the bits and bytes your "precious" loot consists of go back to Oblivion...

kargen27 · June 2022

Lostar wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Crown crates are not gambling. You purchase a crown crate knowing it will give you a minimum number of items. You always get at least that minimum number. Crown crates are no more gambling than trading cards that come with a stick of gum are gambling.
That said I would prefer they got rid of the crown crates and maybe even the crown store altogether and went back to a required subscription to play.

They are gambling. If all it took was to give someone a base reward not worth the money they paid to mean something wasn't gambling, then it would be happening everywhere in the US not just Vegas. There is a reason that loophole doesn't just let people open casinos nationwide and give everyone a nikel for every game they enter and say "look, they always win something, it doesn't count."

The stick of gun/trading card thing is a strawman, which is just a way to get people arguing about a different topic instead of the current one (But I'd be all for banning that sort o crap with cards as well). So back to real topic:

Gambling: "staking of something of value, with consciousness of risk and hope of gain, on the outcome of a game, a contest, or an uncertain event whose result may be determined by chance" -- Crowns = something of value (bought with real world cash). Risk and hope of gain? Are people buying the crates to get the smallest reward possible? Would crates still sell if that's all they had? Or are the taking that risk hoping they will win a valuable item and gain something greater? Are crates a certain event? Do you always know what you will get before you get it, or could you get items of varying value? -- So sounds like gambling to me.

Crowns have no real world value. ZoS is very precise and clear on that being the case. Crowns can only be redeemed for in game items. Again I am not saying there is no problem with crown crates. I am saying they are not legally nor by definition gambling. You spend money to get a set number of crowns that are then used to get a set number of crates. US gambling laws do not apply to crowns or crown crates because they do not meet the legal definition of gambling. Addictive maybe, but not gambling. Just like buying a pack of sports cards is not considered gambling. I know you don't like that comparison but it is exactly the same thing other than with the cards you are spending actual real world currency. You know how many cards you will get just not which cards. Same with crates you know how many items you will get just not what items.
This is actually becoming a popular device for selling things across the business spectrum. You can pay a certain amount each month to get a "surprise" box. A company offers sewing kits. You know you will get something to sew but not exactly what. Another offers fishing equipment. You know you will get an assortment of lures but not what lures.
Crates can prey on people with a certain personality but that doesn't make them gambling.

Referring to the text I've bolded. So.. because ZOS says the crowns have no real world value despite only being able to acquire them through cash (like at a casino when you exchange your cash for chips) ... then... ZOS is automatically right because.. ZOS said so. I know you don't like that comparison (because you never bring mention to it) but crowns when used to purchase loot crates utilize the same thing that tokens do in a slot machine.

No they have no real world value because legally they have no real world value. ZoS tells you the crowns can not be exchanged for anything other than in game purchases. The crowns are worth nothing outside the game so they have no real world value. They can't be made into another real world currency.
When you get tokens from a slot machine do they have to be spent in the casino or can you cash them out and spend that cash elsewhere? Tokens have real world value because they can be transferred to a different currency. Crowns have no real world value because they can be used in the game only.

Lostar · June 2022

dmnqwk wrote: »

The first cereal box prize/toy was offered around the turn of the 20th century (over 100 years ago) and required you to purchase 2 boxes of Kellogg's cereal to receive it.

The most obvious part of this endeavour is that the item was offered in addition to what you were paying for - the cereal was the purchase, this was extra. I believe 1945 marked the beginning of blurring the lines, when the item was inserted inside the box as a 'free gift'.

When we look at the McDonalds situation, the food is available 24/7 but the promotion of free stuff occurs for a limited time. During this time, nothing else changes (you can argue the menu changes to coincide, however that is still something they do regardless) so herein the potential to win stuff is not gambling simply because you are paying for the food and receiving the potential to win on top of it. (Yes, there are people who only go to McDonalds to gamble and win because they are incentivized, but McDonalds simply offer something for free on top of what they regularly offer as a way to spend their promotional monies).

We can pretend Loot Crates are similar to either of these, except a better analogy is to compare them to the gambling scenario of Trading Cards - something that's been around for over 150 years (Baseball cards began in 1860 I believe) - and offer the purchaser a chance to obtain something from a specific set of items in exchange for monies. I don't recall people ever creating mass complaints about trading cards, or Panini stickers, that they were the devil's work because people purchased them as a form of entertainment.

The problem occurs when people get frustrated loot crates never give them a lucky item. Calling them a problem is because people are frustrated they dont get to simply purchase what they want in a straightforward manner, without jumping through several hoops and/or paying exorbitant levels of currency to counteract kismet hating on them. You'll often only want 1, maybe 2 items from a single crate and then think to yourself 'well, i want that item so im going to buy some crates and hope I get it. When I don't get it, i'll pop on the forums and call them an issue' even though you know full well the odds of you getting the item are so small you'd be better off with a lottery ticket.

Loot crates are nothing new. We like to suggest they are a new evil practice, but there is no originality in loot crates - it's simply a modern twist on the 150 year old practice of trading cards (I am sure we could go back further and find evidence of the Ancient Romans doing something similar, but I don't think the tv show Plebs is a reliable resource *snicker* ) and while you may be of the opinion they suck - calling them 'an issue' is a bit late.

Earlier comparisons are certainly way off and you seem to recognize this. However, even your baseball card analogy is off; the cards are a physical good; one that you can even trade amongst friends or, heck, if you get lucky, get a real valuable collectible.

Digital loot boxes are still very new; this aggressive monetization is not new to society but it is new to the game industry as there is a clear memory of a time when they did not exist.

It is never too late to discuss issues that pose a negative impact especially when they remain so relevant that our government is continuing to investigate their effects.

FangOfTheTwoMoons · June 2022

kargen27 wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Crown crates are not gambling. You purchase a crown crate knowing it will give you a minimum number of items. You always get at least that minimum number. Crown crates are no more gambling than trading cards that come with a stick of gum are gambling.
That said I would prefer they got rid of the crown crates and maybe even the crown store altogether and went back to a required subscription to play.

They are gambling. If all it took was to give someone a base reward not worth the money they paid to mean something wasn't gambling, then it would be happening everywhere in the US not just Vegas. There is a reason that loophole doesn't just let people open casinos nationwide and give everyone a nikel for every game they enter and say "look, they always win something, it doesn't count."

The stick of gun/trading card thing is a strawman, which is just a way to get people arguing about a different topic instead of the current one (But I'd be all for banning that sort o crap with cards as well). So back to real topic:

Gambling: "staking of something of value, with consciousness of risk and hope of gain, on the outcome of a game, a contest, or an uncertain event whose result may be determined by chance" -- Crowns = something of value (bought with real world cash). Risk and hope of gain? Are people buying the crates to get the smallest reward possible? Would crates still sell if that's all they had? Or are the taking that risk hoping they will win a valuable item and gain something greater? Are crates a certain event? Do you always know what you will get before you get it, or could you get items of varying value? -- So sounds like gambling to me.

Crowns have no real world value. ZoS is very precise and clear on that being the case. Crowns can only be redeemed for in game items. Again I am not saying there is no problem with crown crates. I am saying they are not legally nor by definition gambling. You spend money to get a set number of crowns that are then used to get a set number of crates. US gambling laws do not apply to crowns or crown crates because they do not meet the legal definition of gambling. Addictive maybe, but not gambling. Just like buying a pack of sports cards is not considered gambling. I know you don't like that comparison but it is exactly the same thing other than with the cards you are spending actual real world currency. You know how many cards you will get just not which cards. Same with crates you know how many items you will get just not what items.
This is actually becoming a popular device for selling things across the business spectrum. You can pay a certain amount each month to get a "surprise" box. A company offers sewing kits. You know you will get something to sew but not exactly what. Another offers fishing equipment. You know you will get an assortment of lures but not what lures.
Crates can prey on people with a certain personality but that doesn't make them gambling.

Referring to the text I've bolded. So.. because ZOS says the crowns have no real world value despite only being able to acquire them through cash (like at a casino when you exchange your cash for chips) ... then... ZOS is automatically right because.. ZOS said so. I know you don't like that comparison (because you never bring mention to it) but crowns when used to purchase loot crates utilize the same thing that tokens do in a slot machine.

No they have no real world value because legally they have no real world value. ZoS tells you the crowns can not be exchanged for anything other than in game purchases. The crowns are worth nothing outside the game so they have no real world value. They can't be made into another real world currency.
When you get tokens from a slot machine do they have to be spent in the casino or can you cash them out and spend that cash elsewhere? Tokens have real world value because they can be transferred to a different currency. Crowns have no real world value because they can be used in the game only.

Playing devil's advocate will not change the fact that it's gambling.

kargen27 · June 2022

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Lostar wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Crown crates are not gambling. You purchase a crown crate knowing it will give you a minimum number of items. You always get at least that minimum number. Crown crates are no more gambling than trading cards that come with a stick of gum are gambling.
That said I would prefer they got rid of the crown crates and maybe even the crown store altogether and went back to a required subscription to play.

They are gambling. If all it took was to give someone a base reward not worth the money they paid to mean something wasn't gambling, then it would be happening everywhere in the US not just Vegas. There is a reason that loophole doesn't just let people open casinos nationwide and give everyone a nikel for every game they enter and say "look, they always win something, it doesn't count."

The stick of gun/trading card thing is a strawman, which is just a way to get people arguing about a different topic instead of the current one (But I'd be all for banning that sort o crap with cards as well). So back to real topic:

Gambling: "staking of something of value, with consciousness of risk and hope of gain, on the outcome of a game, a contest, or an uncertain event whose result may be determined by chance" -- Crowns = something of value (bought with real world cash). Risk and hope of gain? Are people buying the crates to get the smallest reward possible? Would crates still sell if that's all they had? Or are the taking that risk hoping they will win a valuable item and gain something greater? Are crates a certain event? Do you always know what you will get before you get it, or could you get items of varying value? -- So sounds like gambling to me.

Crowns have no real world value. ZoS is very precise and clear on that being the case. Crowns can only be redeemed for in game items. Again I am not saying there is no problem with crown crates. I am saying they are not legally nor by definition gambling. You spend money to get a set number of crowns that are then used to get a set number of crates. US gambling laws do not apply to crowns or crown crates because they do not meet the legal definition of gambling. Addictive maybe, but not gambling. Just like buying a pack of sports cards is not considered gambling. I know you don't like that comparison but it is exactly the same thing other than with the cards you are spending actual real world currency. You know how many cards you will get just not which cards. Same with crates you know how many items you will get just not what items.
This is actually becoming a popular device for selling things across the business spectrum. You can pay a certain amount each month to get a "surprise" box. A company offers sewing kits. You know you will get something to sew but not exactly what. Another offers fishing equipment. You know you will get an assortment of lures but not what lures.
Crates can prey on people with a certain personality but that doesn't make them gambling.

Referring to the text I've bolded. So.. because ZOS says the crowns have no real world value despite only being able to acquire them through cash (like at a casino when you exchange your cash for chips) ... then... ZOS is automatically right because.. ZOS said so. I know you don't like that comparison (because you never bring mention to it) but crowns when used to purchase loot crates utilize the same thing that tokens do in a slot machine.

No they have no real world value because legally they have no real world value. ZoS tells you the crowns can not be exchanged for anything other than in game purchases. The crowns are worth nothing outside the game so they have no real world value. They can't be made into another real world currency.
When you get tokens from a slot machine do they have to be spent in the casino or can you cash them out and spend that cash elsewhere? Tokens have real world value because they can be transferred to a different currency. Crowns have no real world value because they can be used in the game only.

Playing devil's advocate will not change the fact that it's gambling.

If it were gambling it would be regulated as actual gambling is regulated. The law agrees with me on this one at least here in the United States that crown crates are not gambling. I might agree with you if you say they are addictive and harmful. That doesn't make them gambling.

Lostar · June 2022

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFt_2jmPfUw&ab_channel=ClassicCalebTV

FluffyBird · June 2022

Oh my, to see people saying that crown crates aren't gambling just because they have rates posted and there are seals of endeavour.

No. A pretty dress from the crates isn't gambling because I have gems and seals. A crate itself is gambling, because I don't know what I'll got and how much it will take me to get what I want. Compare that to the "pity" in gacha games, BTW, which _guarantees_ you what you want in a certain number of pulls. And even that is still gambling, because you are gambling for getting a desired item in less pulls than limit.

Also, OP quite clearly indicated that problem with P2W is in the fact that different categories of players have different definition of "win". So for some (who are here for the Fashion Scrolls) crates are very much P2W, despite, no, wait, _because_ of them being cosmetic.

Banning? Idk, I'm wary of just prohibiting things because it infringes on personal freedom. I'd rather just see everything earnable in game ofc and leave crown store for "pay to skip", but devs need to eat too, so they'll have to compensate cosmetic sales with something, no guarantee it won't be worse (mandatory sub, anyone?)

Syldras · June 2022

As a start, would I mind loot boxes disappearing? No.

But now we're entering juristic territory and I'm not sure if we're able to discuss that here (also, I'm no lawyer, and especially not at all familiar with US laws). The thing is: Are loot boxes to be classified illegal? Even if I dislike something, I can't just ban it because of that. Not even immoral neccessarily means illegal. And harmful things aren't neccessarily illegal either (especially if they harm only the consumer directly - think of alcohol, for example). Legislative has to consider different aspects, including the rights of consumers, the right of creators, factors like self-responsibility and self-determination. And rightly so.

And as I said, our consumerist society with all its advertisements is highly manipulative, in all aspects. There are also different things that function very much like loot boxes and are not forbidden (trading cards randomly sold in sealed packages, Kinder surprise eggs, lucky bags), lawyers would have to justify why one thing should be forbidden while the others are and should not. It's not all that easy.

Lostar · June 2022

Syldras wrote: »

As a start, would I mind loot boxes disappearing? No.

But now we're entering juristic territory and I'm not sure if we're able to discuss that here (also, I'm no lawyer, and especially not at all familiar with US laws). The thing is: Are loot boxes to be classified illegal? Even if I dislike something, I can't just ban it because of that. Not even immoral neccessarily means illegal. And harmful things aren't neccessarily illegal either (especially if they harm only the consumer directly - think of alcohol, for example). Legislative has to consider different aspects, including the rights of consumers, the right of creators, factors like self-responsibility and self-determination. And rightly so.

And as I said, our consumerist society with all its advertisements is highly manipulative, in all aspects. There are also different things that function very much like loot boxes and are not forbidden (trading cards randomly sold in sealed packages, Kinder surprise eggs, lucky bags), lawyers would have to justify why one thing should be forbidden while the others are and should not. It's not all that easy.

EA also made this comparison; calling loot boxes ethical and fun like Kinder Eggs. They're just fun and harmless 'surprise mechanics'. A previous poster, BretonMage said it well "I don't know if an outright ban is desirable, but we could do worse than look into regulations, just as countries have done with bars and casinos."

Banning the practice might be going too far or it might be exactly what we need; First, there needs to be more lawmakers' eyes on this issue.

The "this is just the way its always been" is one of those apologist arguments I just cannot get behind. There are things that still need to change despite 'it's always been this way'... there's always been these monopolies of electricity.. of internet..

colossalvoids · June 2022

After seeing people defending such practices in recent 0.2 rating game it's not at all surprising seeing it here but that's concerning how some people can be easily misleaded and manipulated to think it's fine and probably the reason why such practices can still slip regulations.

And after writing this I've remembered that eso is not even a f2p game and it became very sad indeed lol.

Lostar · June 2022

I hope we can continue this discussion tomorrow. Heading to bed. Goodnight (or good morning depending on where you are).

FangOfTheTwoMoons · June 2022

@Lostar the thread about Pacrooti was actually a very good point btw. It's a shame it was locked. It brings up very valid points about how psychology plays a huge part in enabling harmful behaviors. A lot of people gloss over that fact and are quick to dismiss it, which is very disheartening.

I especially like the part where someone described the exact thing that was discussed in the Whale video. It really just proved the point.

Iselin · June 2022

I understand your perspective about cosmetics in loot boxes and how easily most players accept it since it's not game playing power which is where many draw the line.

Even for those of us more concerned with stopping P2Win we can't deny that cosmetics carved out of games to be monetized either directly or through gambling mechanics isn't done to the detriment of the game. Games with anything carved out of them to sell as extras are just lesser games for that. Period.

As to the gambling not gambling question. Of course it's gambling.

Gaming companies and their buddies, the ESRB, have been making the same argument for years. They argue that because digital items in games have no real world value, features like loot boxes are not gambling. The only reason they make that distinction is so that games with loot boxes can avoid the "Ao" rating for adults only, together with "prolonged scenes of intense violence" and "graphic sexual content." Games with their definition of gambling do exists and are not illegal in most jurisdictions but an "Ao" rating is considered the kiss of death for regular games.

That's really what the loot box fight is all about. They could easily exists with no one batting an eye if the game were rated "Ao." BTW, simulated gambling as they call it, is not even rated "M". it's rated T for 13 and up.

At any rate, a couple of countries already had the guts to say they're not buying the distinction. Hopefully there'll be more (several European countries are also considering it) who tell them to shove their rationale since, whether real world money is involved ot not, the psychological inducements and potential real world harm are the same with the same potential of creating financial hardship, particularly when we're talking about modern youth who see progressively less and less distinction between their IRL analog bling and their digital ones.

As to susceptible adults, well they're on their own and we're left to foot the bill with our taxes for the social services needed to help them with all the problems associated to gambling addiction. Game companies that create the problem by encouraging the gambling get away with it scot free.

alanmatillab16_ESO · June 2022

Are loot boxes gambling? yes
Are loot boxes predatory? That depends on how they are presented.

Taking Lord of The Rings Online as an example: It has been a couple of years since I played but at that time you would get locked loot boxes drop from mobs which could contain items ranging from mundane crafting materials up to good quality gear. To open these boxes you had to get hold of keys, which could very rarely drop from mobs in the game or you might get a few for doing ingame activities but the number of boxes far outweighed the keys you would get by this method. The intention was you went to the game store and bought keys using shop currency called Turbine Points.

To "earn" turbine points you either subscribed to the game and got a certain amount per month the same way you get crowns per month for ESO+, got them via ingame activities by completing achievements or bought them for real money which of course was the preferred method from Turbine and later Standing Stone Games point of view.

TL;DR The lootboxes in LOTRO were shoved on your character by them falling as loot requiring them to be unlocked, carrot and stick.

In ESO there is very little in the game to remind us that they even exist unless we go looking for them. A mention in the banner on the login reward screen is it, we dont even get them as login rewards any more. For this reason I think the way they are presented by ZOS is not predatory compared to my example of LOTRO and there are far worse games for predatory practices than LOTRO. Heck, go play any mobile game if you think ESO uses predatory practices.

Do I think lootboxes should be banned?

I don't care either way, I have never bought one and never will so their removal from the game will not mean I will miss out on anything. The thing is I understand the reason for their existance, a F2P game that is under constant development and maintenance has to get the funds somehow. Players demand expansions, maintenance, improvements and all that and expect ZOS staff to work all hours all days but also expect the game to be completely free of any sign of ZOS wanting to actually make money from THEIR product.

Say for the sake of arguement that lootboxes are banned. How are those that are for banning them expecting ZOS to replace the income from them? Go back to a completely subscription based model? TBH I wish they would but it is highly unlikely and would lose them more money in the long term. No, what is most likely to happen is the introduction of items from the crown store you can buy to get round some of the gates in the game, a Scroll from Mara to reset your daily quests, a Scroll from Zenithar to reset your daily crafting writs are just two I can come up with. Then the introduction of more gates to progress that can be bypassed with a crown store purchase or a "luck stone" that can temporarily increase your chances for loot/lead drops.

Some of the posters here like to claim things as fact well heres some for you to consider:

Fact: ZOS are required to make a profit by shareholders
Fact: Development of a game and support of that game costs money
Fact: F2P, microtransactions and optional subscription makes more money for companies than subscription models alone.

When you can come up with an alternative that will make as much money as lootboxes do for companies then you stand a chance of getting lootboxes banned. Just giving reasons for their banning won't work because profit>your reasons.

Iselin · June 2022

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

Fact: ZOS are required to make a profit by shareholders

Wrong. They have never been a public company so no shareholders. Maybe they are a bit of one now thanks to the Microsoft buyout but I'm not even sure how that works with respect to ZOS operations themselves. They're certainly not listed independent of MS on the stock exchange.

Lostar · June 2022

ESO is B2P. Not F2P.

Grizzbeorn · June 2022

Iselin wrote: »

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

Fact: ZOS are required to make a profit by shareholders

Wrong. They have never been a public company so no shareholders. Maybe they are a bit of one now thanks to the Microsoft buyout but I'm not even sure how that works with respect to ZOS operations themselves. They're certainly not listed independent of MS on the stock exchange.

Semantics.
Although, the correct term he should have used is 'investors.'
They may not be a publicly traded company, but they still have to answer to the people who want a return on the capital they invested in the game.

alanmatillab16_ESO · June 2022

Iselin wrote: »

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

Fact: ZOS are required to make a profit by shareholders

Wrong. They have never been a public company so no shareholders. Maybe they are a bit of one now thanks to the Microsoft buyout but I'm not even sure how that works with respect to ZOS operations themselves. They're certainly not listed independent of MS on the stock exchange.

Semantics, the requirement for them to make a profit is still there so my comment stands.

What alternative to lootboxes do YOU propose?

Lostar wrote: »

ESO is B2P. Not F2P.

Semantics again, the only difference is with B2P there is the company gets an initial income from the game purchase.

What alternative to lootboxes do YOU propose?

Lostar · June 2022

Also Jimquisition said it best: “If you need loot boxes in your game to keep your game afloat then we do not need you in the gaming industry.”

Of course this isn’t me saying that ZOS needs to shut its doors. I already said I love the game I just hate the gambling shoved in the faces of those of us who do pay attention to loot boxes because cosmetics are important to those of us who use them to enrich our own play style. But just how much I despise, vehemently hate the addition of predatory gambling in our game is nicely expressed in that sentiment.