Remove the need for the top 12 DPS to get loot credit.

jaws343 · June 2022

Look, I am not even saying that something shouldn't change with the way loot is determined. But, I have a problem when people are using tanks as an example for the reason this should happen.

Healers, great, multiple healers can all contribute to a fight.

Tanks, more than one tank is useless in every WB fight as is. So why should they be rewarded for contributing nothing. Reward one tank for taunting the boss or something, but not all of them for a light attack.

Dietche · June 2022

jle30303 wrote: »

Here's my solution:

Everyone who hits the boss, gets loot.

Problem solved.

While I agree, without reservation, that this solves *part* of the problem, it does not solve ALL of the problem(s).
This solution of yours is what led to putting the cap on damage/loot in the first place.

==Because Griefers==

Your solution does not solve the "OneAndDone" issue of griefers, nor does it solve the problem with botting/macros.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I have personally been in numerous situations where I have come across group content where half a dozen people were (supposedly) killing a bad bad man, and had to wind up, quite literally, solo'ing it, while they all stood around after getting their minimum hit in. And, I'm fairly certain some were botters too (not all, but some) due to their truly janky movements and such (and of course reported them).

This is a broken mechanic no matter which way you look at it, and there are indeed easily implemented solutions that may even cause =less= load on the servers as a result, and all that most of us are saying in this thread is that we would like the Dev Team to discuss it at length, when they can, because any reasonable person can see that there is a problem here, especially during Events and new content launches.

spartaxoxo · June 2022

jaws343 wrote: »

Dietche wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

It wasn't really hyperbole. It was a pointed statement in regards to people thinking their tank, which is a build specifically intended to support players, is needed in these large group boss farming scenarios. It isn't. No one needs your tank to taunt the boss and absorb damage in clearly farmed world boss situations. Just stop. Keep your tank to instanced group scenarios and stop trying to act like it belongs in all content at all times. It doesn't. You know, for a fact, that the boss you are heading to, to farm a lead, is going to have a ton of players. No one needs you to tank the boss.

People are complaining that there tanks cannot compete in situations that are clearly, and have always been clearly, not for tanks. This isn't some random WB you stumble on and help out another player. This is a very intentionally farmed boss that you already know will be swarmed with players. Prepare properly for it. That's all I am saying.

The loot cap is irrelevant here, because it applies to everyone. The least you can do is at least try to hit it, instead of just showing up on a pure tank and expecting to do nothing and get rewarded for it. Your taunt is useless since the boss is going to die fast, your 1 light attack is meaningless to the fight, etc. Nothing a pure tank can bring to a boss farming situation is useful in any meaningful way. Why should they be rewarded for that. Why should anyone be rewarded for minimal contributions to the fight.

And let's be honest, most players who get loot do no more than drop an AOE ult and like 1 ground base AOE. Just Wall of Elements and a destro ult and you are more likely than not going to get loot from the boss. 2 skills. That's not a lot to ask.

Wow. Just... WOW. I cannot begin to even pick apart how many statements you just made that are either wrong or narrow minded.

Instead, I'll just say this:
There are a significant number of people who are new, sub cp200. I routinely tell new players like that, especially those that join my guild, that they should focus on their main character and put off making alts until they at least finish unlocking their Champion Points on their account, so that making alts is easier down the road.

I often tell them to wait even a bit longer, so that the CP gains matches the monster power curves, which occurs around, oh, say, 225-300. This lets those new players focus better, learning their chosen Main's role, as well as encounters, crafting and other basic game mechanics, and even get their feet wet in "easy" Vet runs with the guild, opening them up to Monster Gear.

The point being: even without saying that to them, new players often only have ONE character in the first place anyway. A lot of times, that is a tank, leaving them with only a tank as an option to have fun during an event. They have not had time yet to be able to have twin sets of armor farmed up, or learn two roles, or have all their spells and skills learned and morphed. They are still learning how to tank in the first place.

Then we come to those that simply do not like making alts, at all. They have one Main. They farm achievements, quests, zones, trials, etc, all on that ONE Main. A rather large fraction of players in ESO are like this, many of them tanks, and ONLY tanks. They have absolutely no desire to heal or DPS in any way, and when they approach group content, they do tanky tanky things. The only concession to this they make is crafting writ alts.

Your insistence that these people that enjoy the game, and play it in their own way, ==must change to fit your narrow viewpoint== is truly ludicrous. It's also toxic, unwelcoming, and elitist.

Instead, how about we focus on making the game itself fairer, by updating archaic and outdated mechanics, so that a tank or healer has a chance to get a drop doing the things THEY love to do instead of being forced to do something they aren't very good at, or even hate doing?

Expecting people to make changes when they are attempting to do something that doesn't fit to the playstyle they are currently playing in is no where near ludicrous.

Like, if I enter into cyrodil on my PVE build, I should expect to fail pretty miserably. If I enter into a dungeon not prepared to tank it, in the tank role, I should expect to fail. If I enter anything, unprepared for that situation, I should fail.

Walking into a clear farming situation unprepared, you should expect to fail.

They ARE doing something that fits into the current playstyle they are playing in. It's ludicrous to redefine group content in such a narrow way, to justify bad design. World Bosses are explicitly designed for groups and they only reason that they fail to get loot is because the overly strict parameters of who gets loot fails during new content drops when the high population stresses that parameter to its breaking point. This exact same design DOES net them loot when there are only a few players. They will get loot for the vast majority of the content's existence because they ARE playing that content correctly.

This content doesn't change it's express design purpose (which IS group content, NOT DPS content) based off the population size. The content was explicitly designed to be completed by groups, and most bosses have mechanics built in that are best handled by each different role, including heavy attacks that one shot most dps (because a tank is supposed to eat those).

Dietche · June 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It's ludicrous to redefine group content in such a narrow way, to justify bad design.

This!
So. Much. This.

Dietche · June 2022

jaws343 wrote: »

Look, I am not even saying that something shouldn't change with the way loot is determined. But, I have a problem when people are using tanks as an example for the reason this should happen.

Healers, great, multiple healers can all contribute to a fight.

Tanks, more than one tank is useless in every WB fight as is. So why should they be rewarded for contributing nothing. Reward one tank for taunting the boss or something, but not all of them for a light attack.

SMH
Do you not realize tanks do more than taunt??
And that they taunt more than just the boss, for that matter???
And that having more than one tank in a group event is a good thing??

Do you know what Intercept means? Interruption? Chain-pulling? Off-Tanking? Bashing? Positioning? Debuffing?

You know, all the things that makes a fight go from being a right proper cluster-****, into a smooth kill???
Stuff that is happening even when it's mass players versus one boss??
Stuff that is NOT being accounted for in terms of contribution to a kill???

But sure, keep thinking and saying that tanks should not be rewarded and see how well that helps the tank shortage, and how well it works out for you when tanks (and healers, and even other DPS) learn of your viewpoint.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · June 2022

Troodon80 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

3% of 1.5 million hp boss is 45,000 dmg needed to be done (most experienced players could probably do this in 2 attacks)

dragons i think fall under the category of dolmens, and they reward loot as long as you dealt any dmg whatsoever

Exception: latest content isn't 1.5m per boss. It's 2.5m~3m. Which is around 70k minimum damage you need to do.

As a tank you're doing maybe 4k-6k per attack (lucky crits can be more). If a boss dies in 10 seconds, you're out of luck. This release being somewhat of an exception as some world bosses were bugged and wouldn't respawn after dying, so people haven't been farming them as much as they usually do with chapters on release.

Sorry, but that's on the tank for being ill prepared for the task at hand. Tanks and Healers are roles that only make sense in organized group content. They serve no purpose in these types of fights unless trying to do one with a very small group, in which case, the loot issue is not a problem.

I have zero empathy for people that refuse to adapt their build to the objective they are trying to accomplish. If you want to farm crowded world bosses, equip some DPS gear, lay down a few ground Dots and cast a few spammables. You will get loot every darn time. Any class/spec can do it. This particular horse has been thoroughly beaten. It's highly unlikely to change. It takes less of an effort to solve the problem than to complain about it.

jaws343 · June 2022

Dietche wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Look, I am not even saying that something shouldn't change with the way loot is determined. But, I have a problem when people are using tanks as an example for the reason this should happen.

Healers, great, multiple healers can all contribute to a fight.

Tanks, more than one tank is useless in every WB fight as is. So why should they be rewarded for contributing nothing. Reward one tank for taunting the boss or something, but not all of them for a light attack.

SMH
Do you not realize tanks do more than taunt??
And that they taunt more than just the boss, for that matter???
And that having more than one tank in a group event is a good thing??

Do you know what Intercept means? Interruption? Chain-pulling? Off-Tanking? Bashing? Positioning? Debuffing?

You know, all the things that makes a fight go from being a right proper cluster-****, into a smooth kill???
Stuff that is happening even when it's mass players versus one boss??
Stuff that is NOT being accounted for in terms of contribution to a kill???

But sure, keep thinking and saying that tanks should not be rewarded and see how well that helps the tank shortage, and how well it works out for you when tanks (and healers, and even other DPS) learn of your viewpoint.

But none of that is necessary for a WB fight with crowds of people.

Just like some trials don't need more than one tank, and some do. Just like 4 man dungeons only need one tank.

Prepare for the content you are planning to play. Not a single WB needs an off tank. And certainly not a world boss that is being farmed by masses of players. They don't need chains, they don't need positioning. They don't need debuffing. Anyone can interrupt. They die in like 6 seconds. At most, 1 tank is needed (which isn't even really true because no tank is needed when a WB is being mass farmed).

Dietche · June 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I have zero empathy for people that refuse to adapt their build to the objective they are trying to accomplish.

My, what a welcoming viewpoint towards new players trying to run a shiny new event for their first time on the tank they rolled, because they like to play a tank in a video game, and haven't had time yet to farm new gear for DPS or learn new spells from their skill point shortages!!! So welcoming!!!

I'm very sure that attitude will really help retain new players and lessen the tank shortage with fresh blood!!!
How could it not???

My, what a wholesome viewpoint to take towards those players that have dedicated their entire playing career to being the very best tank they can be, farming and honing their skills for thousands of hours, who don't enjoy being forced to pigeonhole themselves into your narrow viewpoint of complete and utter disdain towards their chosen leisure time, all because of a broken mechanic that is archaic and easily solvable!!! So wholesome!!!

I'm very sure your callous air will endear you to tanks as they rush to group with your delightful "zero empathy" self!!!
How could it not???

Gosh, how silly of me to wish for others to be able to see another gamer's viewpoint!!!
Gosh, all along we have had people like you and jaws to point out how selfish and self-centered and uncaring I should be!!!

Dietche · June 2022

jaws343 wrote: »

But none of that is necessary for a WB fight with crowds of people.
Not a single WB needs an off tank.

Ohhhhhh so now, suddenly, you are changing the parameter from "group content" to ONLY world bosses eh?
Because we never see events, or leads dropping, from anyyyyyyy other group activities besides world bosses right?
RIGHTTTTT??????

Way to move the goalposts!!

We are talking about all group content here. Much of it has bizarre loot right restrictions that don't properly reward ALL player contributions because it's based in DPS, or even sometimes in HPS, when you are in a crowd larger than cap.

I've been at regular, every day, old skewl dolmens, not even the new ones like Harrowstorms or Volcanic Vents, where I only healed, or only tanked (via mostly chain-pulling adds so DPS could AOE nuke), for the entire time, and there was a crowd of 30+, and the final boss dropped in a second flat, and I got nothing for that.

This seem right to you? This seem fair to newcomers that don't know the game and it's weird rules yet? Is this truly worth the toxicity it causes? Is this truly worth making those newcomers that come in during free play events feel like they got short-changed and never buy the game or sub? You know, those very same newcomers that are directed in zone chat to "go do dolmens to level fast!!!"????

jaws343 · June 2022

Dietche wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

But none of that is necessary for a WB fight with crowds of people.
Not a single WB needs an off tank.

Ohhhhhh so now, suddenly, you are changing the parameter from "group content" to ONLY world bosses eh?
Because we never see events, or leads dropping, from anyyyyyyy other group activities besides world bosses right?
RIGHTTTTT??????

Way to move the goalposts!!

We are talking about all group content here. Much of it has bizarre loot right restrictions that don't properly reward ALL player contributions because it's based in DPS, or even sometimes in HPS, when you are in a crowd larger than cap.

I've been at regular, every day, old skewl dolmens, not even the new ones like Harrowstorms or Volcanic Vents, where I only healed, or only tanked (via mostly chain-pulling adds so DPS could AOE nuke), for the entire time, and there was a crowd of 30+, and the final boss dropped in a second flat, and I got nothing for that.

This seem right to you? This seem fair to newcomers that don't know the game and it's weird rules yet? Is this truly worth the toxicity it causes? Is this truly worth making those newcomers that come in during free play events feel like they got short-changed and never buy the game or sub? You know, those very same newcomers that are directed in zone chat to "go do dolmens to level fast!!!"????

Every one of my comments was in regards to World Bosses being farmed by masses of players. Which is literally what this entire thread is about, players farming the mythic lead from the stormhaven boss. This 12 player cap argument only ever comes out in regards to World Boss farming. Ever. Because everyone at a dolmen, with even just a light attack, can loot the chest at the end. And the pseudo boss that comes down doesn't even always drop loot anyways, and you get XP from that boss for a light attack.

But also, please tell me why you need more than one tank at a dolmen. Dolmen's, those challenging content pieces that require off tanks.

Loot should be rewarded based on contribution to a fight. Say 21 players show up to a WB. 11 DPS, 10 pure tanks. Those 11 DPS are doing literally all of the work here as the boss dies in a handful of seconds. Only 1 of those tanks are even remotely being useful. So those other 9 tanks, no, I don't think they should be rewarded for doing nothing just because they choose to play an organized group oriented build in a non organized piece of content.

I don't think that is toxic.

One time, I joined a vet dungeon group, and did pretty terribly at it. So I took some time to get better, and then re-entered the content better prepared.

I also once entered PVP, got completely destroyed in the first encounter. Spent the next 6 months preparing for the content and then came back better prepared.

Expecting a player, new or not, to be properly preapred for the contnt they are trying to do, is in no way toxic. Using new players as an excuse to make content rewards handouts for lazy players is far more toxic, and does more harm to the success of those players than expecting them to come back later, better prepared.

dragonlord500 · June 2022

Chill people. I don't want to see you guys take a lighter to this thread. I'm still waiting for what the developers are gonna say about this since it's taking a lot of attention from the people.

spartaxoxo · June 2022

At any rate, this mechanic is intended to stop leeching, which is a perpetual issue. It is not intended to punish people for playing the game the way it is designed. But that is what it is doing during high population times. The players that miss out on loot during those times are not playing the game wrong by playing it the way it is designed. It is basically never a game designer's goal to punish people for playing the game as they intended.

Since high population is a temporary issue, but leeching is a permanent one, they are highly unlikely to change it. Because they are prioritizing the long term health of the bosses over short term breaks in the system from overpopulation stress.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · June 2022

dragonlord500 wrote: »

Chill people. I don't want to see you guys take a lighter to this thread. I'm still waiting for what the developers are gonna say about this since it's taking a lot of attention from the people.

You are going to be waiting a long time. This is not the first nor will it be the last thread on this issue.

Dietche wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I have zero empathy for people that refuse to adapt their build to the objective they are trying to accomplish.

My, what a welcoming viewpoint towards new players trying to run a shiny new event for their first time on the tank they rolled, because they like to play a tank in a video game, and haven't had time yet to farm new gear for DPS or learn new spells from their skill point shortages!!! So welcoming!!!

I'm very sure that attitude will really help retain new players and lessen the tank shortage with fresh blood!!!
How could it not???

My, what a wholesome viewpoint to take towards those players that have dedicated their entire playing career to being the very best tank they can be, farming and honing their skills for thousands of hours, who don't enjoy being forced to pigeonhole themselves into your narrow viewpoint of complete and utter disdain towards their chosen leisure time, all because of a broken mechanic that is archaic and easily solvable!!! So wholesome!!!

I'm very sure your callous air will endear you to tanks as they rush to group with your delightful "zero empathy" self!!!
How could it not???

Gosh, how silly of me to wish for others to be able to see another gamer's viewpoint!!!
Gosh, all along we have had people like you and jaws to point out how selfish and self-centered and uncaring I should be!!!

Sorry, but this has nothing to do with welcoming new players. This has to do with a very specific issue of WB farming at high traffic times. Brand new players arent camping bosses for mythics or farming events to the nth degree. They are playing the game, most likely, solo.

Also, I spend more time on these forums than most in an effort to help new players. I craft gear and hand it out on free to play weekends, I welcome people to my house to teach them proper DPS rotations. I have done a lot for new players in ESO.

What I wont do EVER is tell someone they should pick one build and try to play it in every piece of content, because it is absolutely terrible advice. Tank is a Group Role. Full Stop. The baseline of virtually any fantasy video game is kill the bad guy. You need to do damage to do that. Sure you can be "tanky", but identifying as a tank when solo is asinine. Sooner new players figure that out, the better.

spartaxoxo · June 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

. Tank is a Group Role.

Group bosses are group content. Full stop.

Alinhbo_Tyaka · June 2022

jaws343 wrote: »

Dietche wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

But none of that is necessary for a WB fight with crowds of people.
Not a single WB needs an off tank.

Ohhhhhh so now, suddenly, you are changing the parameter from "group content" to ONLY world bosses eh?
Because we never see events, or leads dropping, from anyyyyyyy other group activities besides world bosses right?
RIGHTTTTT??????

Way to move the goalposts!!

We are talking about all group content here. Much of it has bizarre loot right restrictions that don't properly reward ALL player contributions because it's based in DPS, or even sometimes in HPS, when you are in a crowd larger than cap.

I've been at regular, every day, old skewl dolmens, not even the new ones like Harrowstorms or Volcanic Vents, where I only healed, or only tanked (via mostly chain-pulling adds so DPS could AOE nuke), for the entire time, and there was a crowd of 30+, and the final boss dropped in a second flat, and I got nothing for that.

This seem right to you? This seem fair to newcomers that don't know the game and it's weird rules yet? Is this truly worth the toxicity it causes? Is this truly worth making those newcomers that come in during free play events feel like they got short-changed and never buy the game or sub? You know, those very same newcomers that are directed in zone chat to "go do dolmens to level fast!!!"????

Every one of my comments was in regards to World Bosses being farmed by masses of players. Which is literally what this entire thread is about, players farming the mythic lead from the stormhaven boss. This 12 player cap argument only ever comes out in regards to World Boss farming. Ever. Because everyone at a dolmen, with even just a light attack, can loot the chest at the end. And the pseudo boss that comes down doesn't even always drop loot anyways, and you get XP from that boss for a light attack.

But also, please tell me why you need more than one tank at a dolmen. Dolmen's, those challenging content pieces that require off tanks.

Loot should be rewarded based on contribution to a fight. Say 21 players show up to a WB. 11 DPS, 10 pure tanks. Those 11 DPS are doing literally all of the work here as the boss dies in a handful of seconds. Only 1 of those tanks are even remotely being useful. So those other 9 tanks, no, I don't think they should be rewarded for doing nothing just because they choose to play an organized group oriented build in a non organized piece of content.

I don't think that is toxic.

One time, I joined a vet dungeon group, and did pretty terribly at it. So I took some time to get better, and then re-entered the content better prepared.

I also once entered PVP, got completely destroyed in the first encounter. Spent the next 6 months preparing for the content and then came back better prepared.

Expecting a player, new or not, to be properly preapred for the contnt they are trying to do, is in no way toxic. Using new players as an excuse to make content rewards handouts for lazy players is far more toxic, and does more harm to the success of those players than expecting them to come back later, better prepared.

You keep acting like farming world bosses is a major accomplishment where rewards have to be "earned". There is no such thing as being "prepared" for burner content such as the world bosses. The fact is with the number of people that show up there is nothing skill wise that can justify restricting the handing out of rewards other than a misguided sense of elitism. Who cares if someone gets in one hit or on thousand when the boss goes down faster than most of the everyday mobs in the open world? However if you are so concerned that someone might not pull their weight for inconsequential content then maybe that content is not for you.

belial5221_ESO · June 2022

Specific roles aren't needed for overland content,so most general builds can do almost anything there.Dungeons, trials,and arenas it's useful to have em,but not always neccessary in normal mode.Everyone should have a general overland build,and specific builds for non-overland content,if they wanna enjoy the game more.

An additional problem to removing cap would possibly show up.More people farming would mean boss is killed faster,and you might never get a hit on it,and still no loot,and no quest complete,until you can get a hit(happened to me at mubcrab beach boss).A boss cooldown for say 15-30 minutes where your hits don't register after killing it would solve some issues,and give other players a chance,but then might not have enough players to kill boss outside event or new content and have to wait on others cooldown to be over.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · June 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

. Tank is a Group Role.

Group bosses are group content. Full stop.

"Tanks and Healers are roles that only make sense in organized group content." Second sentence I wrote, and I will stick to it.

There is nothing organized about a WB. There are no limits on players, and they certainly aren't designed with the "trinity" in mind. The vast majority can be soloed quite easily or done with a smattering of mish mashed solo players with no coordination whatsoever. In high traffic times like events, most are dead in 5 seconds or less. Pure tanks and healers aren't doing anything to aid the fight. They are being carried, leaching, whatever you want to call it.

If you want to take them on with a proper group, you can certainly do so. Unless its a recent mythic drop or event, the vast majority of the time no-one is going to bother you and everyone is going to get loot.

That said, if you show up to WB that is being camped by 20 players in your PVE tank build, you probably aint getting loot and its because you aren't contributing to the fight in any meaningful way.

ZOS has made it ridiculously easy to be able to swap builds in the game. So back to my original thought, I have no empathy for people that refuse to adapt their builds to the task at hand. If people dont know how, most of us will bend over backwards to teach/help/show them how to do it, but I lost patience with blind stubbornness a long time ago.

jle30303 · June 2022

Exactly. World Bosses are not Group Content, they are Zerg Content. Any number of players may show up, therefore any number of players should be able to get the loot.

Just as they can with Dragons in Elsweyr.

In fact, the fact that it DOES work with Dragons in Elsweyr (everybody who hits the dragon gets to loot it, and there are no reasonable complaints), shows that there is no good reason not to extend this to other World Bosses.

spartaxoxo · June 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

. Tank is a Group Role.

Group bosses are group content. Full stop.

"Tanks and Healers are roles that only make sense in organized group content." Second sentence I wrote, and I will stick to it.

They make sense in all group content, and Overland group content is factually designed to include them. That is something you made up, and is not a part of the developer design or intent. In fact, they lowered the amount of damage required to kill bosses specifically to ensure healers and tanks are not excluded IIRC. NOBODY has any meaningful individual contribution to a boss when it goes down in 3 seconds because there were 20 people there. This is not unique to tanks and healers. A dps pressing square to hit their AOE is not putting in more effort thank a tank pressing square to taunt.

Your stance is simply an attempt to blame players for a design that is simply easily overwhelmed when content first drops. The idea that the entire intended design of the content changes completely just because it's new is completely incorrect. You can lack empathy all you want, nobody can tell you how to feel. But world bosses are factually group content, and group roles are intended to be able to useful in all group content.

edit to add

When they changed from One Tamriel

In order to get loot and XP credit for killing a mob, you now only need to deal 3% of its maximum health instead of the previous 10%.

World bosses throughout Tamriel have been rebalanced to target groups of four instead of two.

Arunei · June 2022

If you only need to get one hit in on Dragons and Dolmens I don't see why other bosses/world events need to have it so only up to 12 people get drops. But if for whatever reason there has to be a limit of some kind, just make it so you only get drops once every 5-7 minutes or something, but everyone can still get loot even if they manage only one hit.

There's absolutely no reason for a person who's there and contributing to get nothing because they couldn't hit some arbitrary amount of DPS before the the boss is nuked in 2 seconds, since fsr most people seem to think it's a mad dash to burn these things down rather than doing a few hits and then backing off for other people to get in a few hits too.

TinyDragon · June 2022

jaws343 wrote: »

Expecting people to make changes when they are attempting to do something that doesn't fit to the playstyle they are currently playing in is no where near ludicrous.

Like, if I enter into cyrodil on my PVE build, I should expect to fail pretty miserably. If I enter into a dungeon not prepared to tank it, in the tank role, I should expect to fail. If I enter anything, unprepared for that situation, I should fail.

Walking into a clear farming situation unprepared, you should expect to fail.

You are the one deciding it is a clear farming situation. That's purely your opinion.

peacenote · June 2022

jaws343 wrote: »

TinyDragon wrote: »

@jaws343

wrote:

"But, world bosses aren't really "group content" in situations like this though. When there are 100 players camping the boss, no one needs your tank. It's wholly unnecessary. Slot a few DPS skills for a handful of minutes and then move on with your day.

Bring your tank to a WB when it is just a few players you are grouped with, or you see a few players on the WB fighting. That is when they are needed.

It's unreasonable to assume people are able to use the armory to change when they see who is there or not.
I don't want to spend 5,000 crowns on it, when I can port to my house before I do content. Once I'm in the world, there's *no* requirements for me to fit a certain role, be it tank, healer or dps. This is your assumption and belief, and you can't force it on others. It also flys in the face of the phrase ZoS loves so much; play as you want.

It also fails to address the point about loot. If I follow your arbitrary rules about when I should or should not bring a tank, I still won't get loot even if you're saying I might be helpful. Even if I slot a "handful of dps skills", I still won't get loot.
Even if I'm a PvP healer in IC, I won't get loot.
Your solution is not a solution at all.

That's not what play as you want means...

Play as you want means you can play any content you want. It doesn't mean that you can be successful at any content without properly preparing for it. It doesn't meant that a tank should be competitive with a dps. It doesn't mean that a group focused build will be, or should be, successful in non group content.

Hmm. This is an interesting statement because successful from a "competitive" standpoint is not at ALL the same as successful enough to get loot. You can be carried in any role in a dungeon, trial, quest, anchor, etc. and IF THE GROUP BEATS THE CONTENT, you get loot too. Even if your DPS was low or you're a fake tank or whatever. Let's look at PvP. You can be in green PvE gear following a zerg and if the keep gets taken, you get credit. You can be the worst member of you BG team, AFK the whole time, but if the team wins you get credit for that. ESO is generally super generous when it comes to loot. If you're there, and the content is beaten, you get a reward, whether you did it well or not.

Now, if you were carried in a dungeon and tried to join a prog trial group, you may not be welcomed. You might get kicked from your next dungeon group. Whatever. You won't be successful conquering content that requires everyone to be fairly skilled to beat. Nevertheless you STILL get the loot that drops up until the moment you are kicked. Even if you literally contributed nothing.

I'm not advocating that people do these things. I'm just pointing out that except for solo arenas, the bar for being "successful" enough TO GET LOOT in most areas of ESO is basically "be there while the content is beaten." I think it's kind of crazy that the bar for loot from these overland settings like world bosses is so much higher by some of you, when you look at it from that angle. World bosses ARE NOT something that requires everyone to be fairly skilled to beat so why in the world would we be policing a tank who wanders by and tries to help hold some adds and really say "yep, you deserve no loot because you weren't ideally set up for this encounter"??

jaws343 wrote: »

Dietche wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Look, I am not even saying that something shouldn't change with the way loot is determined. But, I have a problem when people are using tanks as an example for the reason this should happen.

Healers, great, multiple healers can all contribute to a fight.

Tanks, more than one tank is useless in every WB fight as is. So why should they be rewarded for contributing nothing. Reward one tank for taunting the boss or something, but not all of them for a light attack.

SMH
Do you not realize tanks do more than taunt??
And that they taunt more than just the boss, for that matter???
And that having more than one tank in a group event is a good thing??

Do you know what Intercept means? Interruption? Chain-pulling? Off-Tanking? Bashing? Positioning? Debuffing?

You know, all the things that makes a fight go from being a right proper cluster-****, into a smooth kill???
Stuff that is happening even when it's mass players versus one boss??
Stuff that is NOT being accounted for in terms of contribution to a kill???

But sure, keep thinking and saying that tanks should not be rewarded and see how well that helps the tank shortage, and how well it works out for you when tanks (and healers, and even other DPS) learn of your viewpoint.

But none of that is necessary for a WB fight with crowds of people.

Just like some trials don't need more than one tank, and some do. Just like 4 man dungeons only need one tank.

Prepare for the content you are planning to play. Not a single WB needs an off tank. And certainly not a world boss that is being farmed by masses of players. They don't need chains, they don't need positioning. They don't need debuffing. Anyone can interrupt. They die in like 6 seconds. At most, 1 tank is needed (which isn't even really true because no tank is needed when a WB is being mass farmed).

Actually. I would like to challenge the statement that any specific role "is needed" for this content and therefore I think it's false logic to say some folks are unprepared if they are spec'd a certain way for these fights. I know tanks who practice their builds and rotations by soloing world bosses. I primarily am a healer and I love going up to random encounters and helping out by healing and buffing. I have dozens if not hundreds of different setups on my healer. If I go to a world boss specced as a trial healer in my RoJo setup, I can solo it. I don't need, at all, a DPS spec'd character to beat the boss.

Maybe DPS farming a boss don't NEED my heals, but they don't hurt. Just like I can solo a boss and I don't NEED extra damage from DPS roles, but it doesn't hurt (from the perspective of beating the boss). A tank going around and shielding folks or taunting or interrupting also doesn't hurt. Everyone participating should get loot because they were there when the content was completed, just like how all other content in ESO works.

I'm generally good at seeing multiple sides of an argument, but as a healer who can VISIBLY SEE the results of my efforts in the form of health bars going up in these fights, it seems crazy to me that this is even a debate. You can be any role and help the fight. No specific role is NEEDED to beat these bosses. So everyone should be welcome and no one should be told they aren't needed because of their spec in this scenario. And anyone who helps should GET LOOT.

Troodon80 · June 2022

jaws343 wrote: »

Look, I am not even saying that something shouldn't change with the way loot is determined. But, I have a problem when people are using tanks as an example for the reason this should happen.

I've already made it clear that this isn't an issue specific to tanks. But you've glossed over that multiple times and doubled down on it still being a tank issue.

On a fundamental level, it's a low DPS issue. It's noticeable on tanks. Sure, because they naturally do lower DPS than a DD who just did a world record time in Cloudrest. But that's a tangential factor. You haven't acknowledged this in any of my posts so far, which I find curious.

You know who else it's noticeable on? The vast majority of players that make up the more casual side of this game. You know, the people not doing veteran DLC hard modes and trifectas, getting World's First Godslayer and Dawnbringer. The low-DPS DDs who get the "blame" for tanks leaving the group finder entirely (and I know you've been paying attention to those discussions; you know full well that low-DPS DDs exist and in significant quantities). The people doing overland content, killing group bosses and doing quests with one bar builds (the target demograph of Oakensoul?) and pew pew snipers or other heavy armour wearing DDs. The people who ZOS changed Maelstrom Arena and Dragonstar Arena for so that they could get arena weapons without doing veteran because it's too difficult for them.

jaws343 wrote: »

It wasn't really hyperbole. It was a pointed statement in regards to people thinking their tank, which is a build specifically intended to support players, is needed in these large group boss farming scenarios. It isn't. No one needs your tank to taunt the boss and absorb damage in clearly farmed world boss situations. Just stop. Keep your tank to instanced group scenarios and stop trying to act like it belongs in all content at all times. It doesn't. You know, for a fact, that the boss you are heading to, to farm a lead, is going to have a ton of players. No one needs you to tank the boss.

If it's not hyperbole then your "pointed statement" fails on a fundamental level.

I've explained that 100 tanks doing just 4k DPS would still kill a 2.5m health group boss in 6 seconds. Just in case you missed that bit, that's 6 seconds. You don't need someone to tank it? No one needs you to do DPS. No one needs you to kill it in 0.5 seconds. How meaningful is it to have actual DDs in the fight when it only takes 6 seconds as a bunch of tanks? And if it dies in 6 seconds, you probably won't need healers, either. The fact of the matter is, no role is specfically needed with enough players.

Just as @peacenote said regarding zergs, people who follow or join zergs still get capture and defence credit in PvP. So why not boss loot in PvE? If you have what is essentially a zerg on a group boss, no one specific player's contribution is noteworthy and, thus, no specific role is needed. Not even the DD role.

Your pointed statement becomes, simply, a justification for telling tanks to play how you think they should while simultaneously ignoring that it isn't specifically a tank issue. In reality, the statement doesn't hold any credibility when put under scrutiny.

Tommy_The_Gun · June 2022

In order to get loot and XP credit for killing a mob, you now only need to deal 3% of its maximum health instead of the previous 10%.

I am pretty sure that it is not how it is currently working (it must have been changed yet again at some point) as I get the exp for the kill & achievement for killing a world bosses, but no loot...

I think that a simple way to fix this issue would be to add a timer condition. If the boss was killed in less than 5 - 7 seconds then everyone one who did at least 1 dmg gets the loot.

BloodMagicLord · June 2022

It's quite ironic that this issue surfaced again in the same patch that Zenimax added a bunch of new accessibility features to the game.

What about new players? What about players who can't do much DPS because of an injury or disability?

Overland content is supposed to be mostly casual, and accessible for all players. Nothing about this loot system is accessible. It's just arbitrary, if it's intended to stop people from getting loot with just a light attack then it has a terrible aim.

@ZOS_GinaBruno Can you ask someone to look into this?

BloodMagicLord · June 2022

jaws343 wrote: »

Look, I am not even saying that something shouldn't change with the way loot is determined. But, I have a problem when people are using tanks as an example for the reason this should happen.

Healers, great, multiple healers can all contribute to a fight.

Tanks, more than one tank is useless in every WB fight as is. So why should they be rewarded for contributing nothing. Reward one tank for taunting the boss or something, but not all of them for a light attack.

Huh? So if you turn up to a world boss on your tank and there's already a tank there then I guess you're screwed? You REALLY didn't think that one through before you started writing, did you?

I don't know what your issue is with tanks in this game, but your point is completely irrelevant. There's some players who are NOT tanks but still won't do much more damage than a tank would, because they are healing, because they are new to the game, because they have an injury or disability, because they are distracted by kids, or one of plenty of other reasons.

We're not talking about getting loot from a competitive game or leaderboard system here, it's loot from non-instanced overland content and therefore denying loot to players because of inadequate performance is nonsensical and is the byproduct of a poorly implemented system to stop afk/bot/multi account farming.

Erissime · June 2022

Actually I don't get why the complaints happen. The issue occurs only when hoards of players are stacking on a boss. I've particularly did NOT hit a boss more than once while 3 other players killed it, and just how much damage can one light attack do? - loot was there alright. So how about stop hoarding the world bosses and go do some more content instead? Because I doubt spamming them is a suitable game-play or fair in any way to the otherwise rich content offered through every chapter, and as it chances - yeah people do tend to hoard those over most of the other content- or just exploring really.

Meanwhile, when 10+ players stacking on a boss, making it die almost instantly, yes the loot is gated indeed and well - good luck on dps. So maybe choose different hours or try to thin the lines a little, loot is there for everyone, guaranteed (High Isle included - my experiment above actually done in this new chapter - the observation of things though is from most bosses I watched over time).

But if we are talking loot, then world bosses aren't dropping anything better than the rest of the overland mobs, unless we are talking some very rare circumstance in which a lead specifically drops from a boss. So honestly, no big loss in the end, achievement of having killed the boss - in my humble ( and unimportant) opinion - is worth while way more than the loot in question.

Necrotech_Master · June 2022

FluffWit wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Because players who realize all they have to do to get loot is hit the Mob once and then stand there until its over, WILL do that.

The current motif farm in the Deadlands portals is proof enough of this.

So many people just throwing one light attack on one add then pretty much going afk.

a lot of people afk in the atoll because that boss feels like it goes invulnerable so often, it doesnt have a lot hp and gets burned down fast but it has several times it goes invulnerable (at least once early on and then whenever its channel is interrupted which can happen up to 3 more times usually before it dies)

no point in attack spamming on an invulnerable boss that is invulnerable for 2/3 of the fight time

Necrotech_Master · June 2022

Troodon80 wrote: »

I've explained that 100 tanks doing just 4k DPS would still kill a 2.5m health group boss in 6 seconds. Just in case you missed that bit, that's 6 seconds. You don't need someone to tank it? No one needs you to do DPS. No one needs you to kill it in 0.5 seconds. How meaningful is it to have actual DDs in the fight when it only takes 6 seconds as a bunch of tanks? And if it dies in 6 seconds, you probably won't need healers, either. The fact of the matter is, no role is specfically needed with enough players.

not going to lie, i would like to see 100 tanks bash spamming a WB to death lol

Vaoh · June 2022

Was there ever a reason ZOS gave for the 12 player loot limit? It seems like a strange restriction with only downsides.