Companion Tiers
Demalb16_ESO
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Hello, I unlocked isoble and ember and I'm noticing that isobel is far superior in almost any role (I'm levelling her and I have seen some video on the web).
Isobel is max tier in healing, tanking and dps stamina.
Ember is max tier in magika dps (she is a very good AOE dps).
The problem is with the old companions with mirri being mediocre at best in any role and bastian being infirior to isobel in both tanking and healing (He should be at least top tier in tanking on pair with isobel).
I wanted to differenciate my companions by role and except for ember that has her place (AOE dps) and Isobel that it seems can be everything else I struggle to find the other usefull. Bastian is not as good as Isobel, should be his tanking ability adjusted to make it a little better? (I want to make bastian tank and isobel healer because there is no other companion with a healing skill line)
Should they rework a little the skills of mirri? (I really find difficult fo find her a spot, maybe single target healer ? but is a little useless since i can slot a skill for that)
Should they put an inventory on Isobel and add the possibility to save build for her in the armory so that you can change on the fly not being the others good enough options ?
Isobel is max tier in healing, tanking and dps stamina.
Ember is max tier in magika dps (she is a very good AOE dps).
The problem is with the old companions with mirri being mediocre at best in any role and bastian being infirior to isobel in both tanking and healing (He should be at least top tier in tanking on pair with isobel).
I wanted to differenciate my companions by role and except for ember that has her place (AOE dps) and Isobel that it seems can be everything else I struggle to find the other usefull. Bastian is not as good as Isobel, should be his tanking ability adjusted to make it a little better? (I want to make bastian tank and isobel healer because there is no other companion with a healing skill line)
Should they rework a little the skills of mirri? (I really find difficult fo find her a spot, maybe single target healer ? but is a little useless since i can slot a skill for that)
Should they put an inventory on Isobel and add the possibility to save build for her in the armory so that you can change on the fly not being the others good enough options ?
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Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I cannot compare, because I have just Mirri. In my mind she is quite good and entertaining with an inferno staff and using her assassin skills as well as her fear ability. She is aggressive, agile, brave and sometimes reckless like this, real fun to have around. I cannot even imagine, to kill her temper by giving her a nurse/healer role - she is so much more than this.
In short, Mirri does not need to be reworked - she is an agile assassin in the first place, not a nurse or a tank. And especially in combination with the inferno staff and it's push, she is everywhere in a fight, confusing enemies, who change target and loose time by this. And she puts fear in enemies, that those do nothing for a while and just scream holding their heads - that is what Mirri is good in, let her do that.Edited by Lysette on June 7, 2022 5:25AM5 -
phaneub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Isobel with an Ice Staff and Heavy Armor can fulfill all 3 roles as Tank, Healer, and Damage Dealer with the right set of abilities. It's actually quite amazing how much output she has when many of her abilities do dual roles.6 -
BretonMage✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Demalb16_ESO wrote: »The problem is with the old companions with mirri being mediocre at best in any role and bastian being infirior to isobel in both tanking and healing (He should be at least top tier in tanking on pair with isobel).
I wanted to differenciate my companions by role and except for ember that has her place (AOE dps) and Isobel that it seems can be everything else I struggle to find the other usefull. Bastian is not as good as Isobel, should be his tanking ability adjusted to make it a little better? (I want to make bastian tank and isobel healer because there is no other companion with a healing skill line)
Yikes, that does not seem fair at all.
I haven't tried out Isobel yet but I agree Isobel and Bastian should be equally effective.phaneub17_ESO wrote: »Isobel with an Ice Staff and Heavy Armor can fulfill all 3 roles as Tank, Healer, and Damage Dealer with the right set of abilities. It's actually quite amazing how much output she has when many of her abilities do dual roles.
Again, that does not sound fair at all.Edited by BretonMage on June 7, 2022 5:56AM1 -
phaneub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BretonMage wrote: »Again, that does not sound fair at all.
You're right its not, on top of it all her racial passive 3% damage reduction is more powerful than Bastian's 3% increased health by a fair margin. A Vigorous Isobel is even stronger with her damage absorption shield based on her max health. Basalt Barrier is usually consumed in a single hit so goes his bonus 15% healing taken is gone before it provides any use.
Blessed Sacrament, Destructive Blast (Ice), Beam of Reproach (heal and damage combo), Solar Ward (faster than Drake's Blood by 4 secs, no health condition), Holy Ground; with either Vigorous or Quickened. If you're feeling up to it you can switch out Solar Ward for Elemental Barricade on less difficult encounters.
Edited by phaneub17_ESO on June 7, 2022 7:38AM6 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It is a role playing game, not everything has to be fair or on equal footings in an RPG. Diversity is even what is key, balancing is a competitive game concept, but in an RPG diversity and a variety of different strengths and weaknesses is key. If my Mirri is just mediocre, so what, so am I, together we make a great team and support each other in a synergetic way. This counts to me more than having the "best" companion on paper - Mirri might be mediocre, but she is awesome nevertheless.7 -
BretonMage✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ordinarily, I'd be inclined to agree with you, Lysette. I don't play competitively and usually don't care. However, it doesn't sit well with me that Bastian is not that effective as a tank in vet content as he gets one-shot by vet bosses, and IF Isobel is better in that regard, then I will feel the unfairness keenly when he spends 90% of the vet boss battle dead on the ground.
Secondly, everything in ESO seems to be interrelated and our skills are continually tweaked in the name of balance. I'm not privy to the inner workings of the Holy Council of Balance, but I don't particularly want an overly strong Isobel affecting how they may see our companions' efficacy.4 -
Demalb16_ESO✭✭✭It is a role playing game, not everything has to be fair or on equal footings in an RPG. Diversity is even what is key, balancing is a competitive game concept, but in an RPG diversity and a variety of different strengths and weaknesses is key. If my Mirri is just mediocre, so what, so am I, together we make a great team and support each other in a synergetic way. This counts to me more than having the "best" companion on paper - Mirri might be mediocre, but she is awesome nevertheless.
It's not a think on "best on paper" is about being effective enough. From your word I have to deduce that if ZOS take the class you use for your pg and cut the effectivness of your skill in half that should not be a problem .....
"diversity and variety of dirfferent stregths" that's the point : Isobel can do a variety of things in an effective way while mirri can't! Isobel should not be so effective in everithing and mirri should be good at something.2 -
Demalb16_ESO✭✭✭BretonMage wrote: »Ordinarily, I'd be inclined to agree with you, Lysette. I don't play competitively and usually don't care. However, it doesn't sit well with me that Bastian is not that effective as a tank in vet content as he gets one-shot by vet bosses, and IF Isobel is better in that regard, then I will feel the unfairness keenly when he spends 90% of the vet boss battle dead on the ground.
Secondly, everything in ESO seems to be interrelated and our skills are continually tweaked in the name of balance. I'm not privy to the inner workings of the Holy Council of Balance, but I don't particularly want an overly strong Isobel affecting how they may see our companions' efficacy.
I don't play in a competitive way either but if I need a tank for world bosses I want one that can take some damage, an healer that can heal and a dps that can do some damage. ember is a perfect DPS, mirri and bastian struggle to find their place while Isobel do everything .... If I take the time to raise 4 companion I would like to have the possibility to choose a role for each of them. The role for bastian and mirri it's a problem since they are not effective in their role.1 -
Mascen✭✭✭✭It is a role playing game, not everything has to be fair or on equal footings in an RPG. Diversity is even what is key, balancing is a competitive game concept, but in an RPG diversity and a variety of different strengths and weaknesses is key. If my Mirri is just mediocre, so what, so am I, together we make a great team and support each other in a synergetic way. This counts to me more than having the "best" companion on paper - Mirri might be mediocre, but she is awesome nevertheless.
How is diversity a good thing if it doesnt play into natural strengths and differences? I like Mirri too but she's somewhat held back from being a "deadly assassin" by the limitations of her kit and the companion AI programming. Agility is meaningless if you can't weave in and out at the right times to do and avoid damage otherwise a glass cannon becomes a glass pea shooter.1 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭mirri is not bad as a single target dps, but i can easily see ember surpassing her
the problem is the class skills, the class skills that mirri and bastion have are like OK but nowhere near as good as ember and isobel
outside of the class skills and the marginal racial passives the companions are virtually identical so its easier to see balance issuesplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities2 -
Mascen✭✭✭✭@Necrotech_Master
I'd also argue the AI limitations at least in relation to Mirri. The Nightblades I've run with largely compensate with the class focus on single target damage through bow/staff backbar abilities and general player situational awareness. The AI that programs our companions cannot make those split second decisions to change and anticipate targets on the fly like we can.0 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Necrotech_Master
I'd also argue the AI limitations at least in relation to Mirri. The Nightblades I've run with largely compensate with the class focus on single target damage through bow/staff backbar abilities and general player situational awareness. The AI that programs our companions cannot make those split second decisions to change and anticipate targets on the fly like we can.
i think it is more skill related, if you look at mirris class skills, most of them are replicas of true NB skills, but they picked like all the worst possible ones to give her
her class skills have no dots (such as a similar skill to crippling grasp or shadow image)
i currently have her set up using a bow right now, but the only 2 class skills she is using is life absorption (as a combat heal) and the invis one that heals for 25% of her max hp (since it gives her 3 seconds of invulnerability and drops enemy aggro)
she has absolutely 0 aoe though (poison arrow, starfall and silver shards are the offense skills i have her with because poison arrow is a dot but everything is single target only, even her ult is single target), but she does good burst dmg to that single target lolplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities0 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@ArzyeL made an amazing video for a Companion Tier list
https://youtu.be/LbCi_nkVAFk
It more or less coincides with what the OP is saying.
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Mascen✭✭✭✭Necrotech_Master wrote: »@Necrotech_Master
I'd also argue the AI limitations at least in relation to Mirri. The Nightblades I've run with largely compensate with the class focus on single target damage through bow/staff backbar abilities and general player situational awareness. The AI that programs our companions cannot make those split second decisions to change and anticipate targets on the fly like we can.
i think it is more skill related, if you look at mirris class skills, most of them are replicas of true NB skills, but they picked like all the worst possible ones to give her
her class skills have no dots (such as a similar skill to crippling grasp or shadow image)
i currently have her set up using a bow right now, but the only 2 class skills she is using is life absorption (as a combat heal) and the invis one that heals for 25% of her max hp (since it gives her 3 seconds of invulnerability and drops enemy aggro)
she has absolutely 0 aoe though (poison arrow, starfall and silver shards are the offense skills i have her with because poison arrow is a dot but everything is single target only, even her ult is single target), but she does good burst dmg to that single target lol
Yeah her class abilites are all melee ones minus the Ult, but I see where youre coming from and will concede fixing her kit would go a long way. Honestly as far as abilities go all that's really needed is to give the warp strike the Lotus Fan morph, and replacing one of the soul abilites with a drain power copy. Twilight mantle oddly enough has both cloak morphs.
Problem remains the AI to an extent. Like if the companion AI had better targeting and decision making, it could more effectively shift between enemy priorities. That way the high single target damage is used in the most efficient manner while also requiring less healing.Edited by Mascen on June 7, 2022 7:25PM0 -
Ingenon✭✭✭✭✭
✭So the new companions are arguably better than the original companions for every role. I think it would be better if each of the four companions had their niche and were each better at one role (tank, heal, ranged dps, or melee dps). But it sounds like that isn't what we got. I will try out the new companions when High Isle is released for console, and if Isobel/Ember are better for me, then Bastien/Mirri will have their gear removed and they won't get used.5 -
Demalb16_ESO✭✭✭So the new companions are arguably better than the original companions for every role. I think it would be better if each of the four companions had their niche and were each better at one role (tank, heal, ranged dps, or melee dps). But it sounds like that isn't what we got. I will try out the new companions when High Isle is released for console, and if Isobel/Ember are better for me, then Bastien/Mirri will have their gear removed and they won't get used.
Yeah, that's the problem for me. They should have their strong point like normal classes for player: for tank is better dragon knight or warden;, for Healer warden or templar ecc ecc. The difference should not be great but their class skill should be slightly oriented toward a certain role even more now that we have four of them to set up to cover certain spots.
With this chapter they tried to improve the AI, we will se how that goes but if you make them for certain role you should be able to have each AI of a companion created for that role. Or you can put icons to select roles to decide how the AI should beheave like in the activity finder you choose to queque for tank helaer or dps you could have something similar for companions. That wuold make thing easier for the people who have to create the AI.1 -
Carcamongus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Mirri finds it amusing when I steal stuff, that's the sort of ability that pleases me. I got the two new companions but, after maxing Mirri in everything except light armor, I'm feeling a bit lazy to start the grind all over again.Imperial DK and Necro tank. PC/NA
"Nothing is so bad that it can't get any worse." (Brazilian saying)0 -
phaneub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ways they can improve Bastian's abilities
Drake's Blood, remove the <75% health condition. Preemptive active damage reduction is more valuable than one that casts after you already got hit in the face, especially if it outright kills him when that 20% could have saved his life.
Basalt Barrier, have the 15% healing taken bonus remain for 6 seconds after casting not removed when the shield falls.
Kindle, make it unique as a combination of both morphs shooting two healing Fireballs instead of one. If he's at full health it will heal two allies or it will heal himself and one ally.
Blazing Grasp, I would prefer this be the Empowering Chain variant where it pulls him to the enemy, not the enemy to him. Abilities that move enemies are quite annoying, this includes Destructive Blast(Fire) and Staggering Swing too.2 -
peacenote✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Demalb16_ESO wrote: »So the new companions are arguably better than the original companions for every role. I think it would be better if each of the four companions had their niche and were each better at one role (tank, heal, ranged dps, or melee dps). But it sounds like that isn't what we got. I will try out the new companions when High Isle is released for console, and if Isobel/Ember are better for me, then Bastien/Mirri will have their gear removed and they won't get used.
Yeah, that's the problem for me. They should have their strong point like normal classes for player: for tank is better dragon knight or warden;, for Healer warden or templar ecc ecc. The difference should not be great but their class skill should be slightly oriented toward a certain role even more now that we have four of them to set up to cover certain spots.
With this chapter they tried to improve the AI, we will se how that goes but if you make them for certain role you should be able to have each AI of a companion created for that role. Or you can put icons to select roles to decide how the AI should beheave like in the activity finder you choose to queque for tank helaer or dps you could have something similar for companions. That wuold make thing easier for the people who have to create the AI.
I also would be / have been OK with all of them being fairly equally good at everything.
This way you could use who you like best or whoever you are in the mood to hear without feeling like you are sacrificing something. You could have four tanks, based on mood, or have each one in a different role... either way. I would agree, though, that if they did go the route of specializations it should align with player class strengths.
I especially would like to see Bastian buffed to be equal to the newer companions, as he is the only dude we have right now.
I'm not too optimistic that they'll go back and improve the old companions, as I think the percentage of players who like to use the companions AND enjoy the optimize them in combat/theory-crafting piece of it is low. I think a lot of people either use them ONLY to optimize and don't care which one it is (except for maybe they will be annoyed in leveling another one) and a lot of people like the story/companionship piece, but there isn't too much crossover. It would be nice, though, since the chosen companions are around for ALL content, including new content, if ZOS would treat them like player classes and continue to improve them.2 -
BretonMage✭✭✭✭✭
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Doesn't Drake's Blood heal for 25%? If so, having the 75% health condition makes sense. Though I do think think they should probably drop the healing and increase the shield/damage reduction and its duration instead.phaneub17_ESO wrote: »Ways they can improve Bastian's abilities
Drake's Blood, remove the <75% health condition. Preemptive active damage reduction is more valuable than one that casts after you already got hit in the face, especially if it outright kills him when that 20% could have saved his life.
He definitely needs something to help him withstand vet/DLC bosses. I've noticed that I haven't bothered switching him to a tank role recently because vet boss fights are actually much less stressful if I'm not constantly wondering if he's dead yet.
Agree.I especially would like to see Bastian buffed to be equal to the newer companions, as he is the only dude we have right now.0 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So the new companions are arguably better than the original companions for every role. I think it would be better if each of the four companions had their niche and were each better at one role (tank, heal, ranged dps, or melee dps). But it sounds like that isn't what we got. I will try out the new companions when High Isle is released for console, and if Isobel/Ember are better for me, then Bastien/Mirri will have their gear removed and they won't get used.
Yes and it sounds like this may become the trend. Remember when we complained about Mirri/Bastion being too weak? Clearly it was intentional so that new Companions can become stronger with each chapter launch. Next chapter will undoubtedly give us 1-2 more companions which reflect Warden/Necromancer.
It’ll be interesting how they go about companions once the player classes are used up.... maybe all of the special NPC sort of classes will be used? Shaman, Umbral, Gloam, Void, Blood, Ice, Soulrazor, Tempest, etc. Each time new companions come out I’d imagine they will obsolete the previous ones.
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BretonMage✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Not to state the obvious, but it's clearly a mistake to make one companion better than another. Just like no skill line should be made obsolete, no companion should be made obsolete either. What I liked about the new DLC was that it introduced a variety of companions so we didn't have to face a sea of Bastians and Mirris everywhere. It would not be an improvement if it was replaced by a sea of Isobels and Embers.
And of course, it's not exactly fair that those who like Bastian have to play at a disadvantage.4 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BretonMage wrote: »Not to state the obvious, but it's clearly a mistake to make one companion better than another. Just like no skill line should be made obsolete, no companion should be made obsolete either. What I liked about the new DLC was that it introduced a variety of companions so we didn't have to face a sea of Bastians and Mirris everywhere. It would not be an improvement if it was replaced by a sea of Isobels and Embers.
And of course, it's not exactly fair that those who like Bastian have to play at a disadvantage.
Seems the idea is to incentivize farming High Isle’s companions since they are objectively better than Blackwood’s companions.
Down the line they’ll probably buff Mirri and Bastion.1 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BretonMage wrote: »Not to state the obvious, but it's clearly a mistake to make one companion better than another. Just like no skill line should be made obsolete, no companion should be made obsolete either. What I liked about the new DLC was that it introduced a variety of companions so we didn't have to face a sea of Bastians and Mirris everywhere. It would not be an improvement if it was replaced by a sea of Isobels and Embers.
And of course, it's not exactly fair that those who like Bastian have to play at a disadvantage.
Seems the idea is to incentivize farming High Isle’s companions since they are objectively better than Blackwood’s companions.
Down the line they’ll probably buff Mirri and Bastion.
i agree they will probably revisit bastion and mirri, they were the first round and the first try is not likely going to be the best
the majority of the companions are identical, the thing that sets them apart is their class kits, of which mirri and bastion could use some improvements, there are many other NB skills that could have been better on mirri and so many DK skills that could have worked better on bastionplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities0 -
Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭phaneub17_ESO wrote: »Isobel with an Ice Staff and Heavy Armor can fulfill all 3 roles as Tank, Healer, and Damage Dealer with the right set of abilities. It's actually quite amazing how much output she has when many of her abilities do dual roles.
Yes, this is big part of the reason why she seems suited to all roles. When I saw her tanking and then bring out the sweeps, I was like 'OK, so I guess Isobel will be my tank/dd/healer'
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