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Remove the need for the top 12 DPS to get loot credit.
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Troodon80✭✭✭✭✭
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Again, world bosses are considered group content. Whether people bring a tank or can solo it is largely irrelevant to anything. And support roles are generally not complaining about not being able to "compete" as there is nothing to compete with. ZOS's moto is play how you want. This extends to group dungeons to the point where, for example, Gilliam the Rogue said (implied) there was nothing to talk about regarding "fake" roles and that people were allowed to play how they want. I agree with this sentiment, broadly speaking.It is mostly directed at the support role players who refuse to adjust their builds for overland or solo content, and then complain when they cannot "compete" on the same level with players running more solo oriented builds.
Of course your group oriented, support tank, should be unable to do sufficient damage to a world boss, or pass a DPS check in a solo arena, it's a group support build. Change the build for the content you are trying to do.
Restricting loot to the top few parse monkeys in the fight is bad design because at that point it's not just affecting supports who "don't want to adapt," it's affecting anyone who cannot reach that minimum requirement. Simple as that.
@Troodon80 PC | EU
Guild: N&S
Hand of Alkosh | Dawnbringer | Immortal Redeemer | Tick Tock Tormentor | Gryphon Heart
Deep Dive into Dreadsail Reef Mechanics9 -
FluffWit✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Because players who realize all they have to do to get loot is hit the Mob once and then stand there until its over, WILL do that.
The current motif farm in the Deadlands portals is proof enough of this.
So many people just throwing one light attack on one add then pretty much going afk.0 -
Wavek✭✭✭Is the "top 12 DPS gets loot" even absolutely true and set in stone? I did a light attack-surprise attack several times and was able to loot and get a mythic lead from Titanclaw WB. There were dps sweats around me and groups, I was solo. I don't think I was top 12 dps with light attack-surprise attack
It is, but it seems like a group counts as 1 of the 12. (not sure if going up to a trial group size impacts that #) If in a group I've never not got loot if I at least hit the boss once. (like dolmen farming and still get boss loot)
Lead drops may be independent of that system though. They may drop regardless of the normal top 12 loot thing.0 -
Alinhbo_Tyaka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Because players who realize all they have to do to get loot is hit the Mob once and then stand there until its over, WILL do that.
The current motif farm in the Deadlands portals is proof enough of this.
So many people just throwing one light attack on one add then pretty much going afk.
I really don't care if someone throws a few hits and AFK's. These things aren't restricted items nor are the bosses anything that requires any real skill to defeat. In fact most of the bosses rely upon delay tactics in order to keep them up for more than a few seconds against the large number of participating players. A few players sitting out won't change that.2 -
Janni✭✭✭✭Is the "top 12 DPS gets loot" even absolutely true and set in stone? I did a light attack-surprise attack several times and was able to loot and get a mythic lead from Titanclaw WB. There were dps sweats around me and groups, I was solo. I don't think I was top 12 dps with light attack-surprise attack
You would be surprised. I don't think I've ever once NOT gotten a loot drop no matter how late I've come in and now matter what attack I use.
I just realized I didn't read your comment right. So maybe my example is a case to support your argument. Who knows?! lol All I know is that people will complain about it non-stop in zone chat for the first month or so of any new zone that is released so there must be *some* number that limits how many get drops.Edited by Janni on June 10, 2022 12:16AM0 -
belial5221_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Whether you like it or not,it's been around since 2016,not many complained as much til now,where everyone is maxing DPS and that .001% less damage causes no loot.If they haven't removed by now,probably never will.
Top 12 link: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3881521#Comment_3881521
3% damage link: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3412929/#Comment_34129290 -
TinyDragon✭✭✭I agree that this is unfair, and I think people crying out saying "Just change your build!" should consider that ZOS' attitude *IS* play how you want.
I've been at WBs that it's been very helpful to have a tank. I've healed at dragons, and purged to save people from the dot they get. I've also healed at IC bosses, as a PVP healer, and gotten no loot.
Why don't I deserve some too? I've helped keep my team from getting ganked, from dying to mechs. Damage is not the only way to be helpful.8 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭With this ridiculous portal motif business in Deadlands, I usually just stand where I’ll get hit by trash mobs, give Mirri an ice staff and some Aggressive armor, tab out to something else and go loot the chest every five minutes.0 -
Supreme_Atromancer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Either ZOS doesn't know what 3% means in real, in-game terms, or the content and the way damage is done has moved so far past this being a practical value in some content that they are out of touch.
You just need to look at how stuff gets nuked to see this.
So what if someone is going to AFK. Screwing some people over because others might not do what you want them to is a coarse and unimaginative solution.
And yes, it turns out that in a game that features a combat system designed around the holy trinity, it turns out that some people actually like to play tanks and healers in group content. Telling them they're wrong and they should just conform to how YOU see the game is misguided and alarmingly tone deaf.
OP is correct. It is an outdated and utterly unnecessary system.6 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭belial5221_ESO wrote: »If you kill the boss and he spawns too fast like less than 8 minutes and you kill again,you prob won't get loot,even at #1 dps.There's a cooldown on looting bosses also,I tihnk it's 8+ minutes.Sometimes bosses spawn less than that when new ppl arrive.So it is still top 12 dps/hps doing 3%+ damage,but if you looted,there's cooldown before another loot about 8-10 minutes I tihnk.
The top 12 thing was added to kep botters/multiaccts idling and ppl leeching loot without doing anything but one hit.It's a game,play it,or get nothing.
The cooldown is only like 3 minutes.
During some events, we will use the crow momento that calls the crows to you, since that has a 3 minute timer, and when it runs out, you can get boss loot again.
So maybe make that timer longer to avoid such shenanigans and permit more players to get loot.0 -
Dark_Lord_Kuro✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MasterSpatula wrote: »There's gotta be a way to prevent leeching activity without punishing tanks. It's 2022. Devs have to be smart enough to solve this dilemma.
This is solved via armory3 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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That work for dragons and dolmens and similar not on world bosses but you still get achievement and quest finished.Because players who realize all they have to do to get loot is hit the Mob once and then stand there until its over, WILL do that.
I got credited for an dragon kill healing one fighting the dragon, my LA did not land but he was closer
And healing get credited but it require healing damage who is unlikely with 12 fighting the boss.
For tanks switching to an DD build if its lots of people on the boss is smart I would use the armory and do an DD build for overland anyway and only tank if you got a couple of players.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
Troodon80✭✭✭✭✭
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Play however you want, but don't play tank. Cheers for that.Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »MasterSpatula wrote: »There's gotta be a way to prevent leeching activity without punishing tanks. It's 2022. Devs have to be smart enough to solve this dilemma.
This is solved via armory
The armory system goes a long way to providing a workaround. I really appreciate what ZOS did with this system, and not just from a tank perspective. It allows a lot more freedom. However, the armory system isn't a long term fix to this issue. To reiterate, this is not specifically a tank issue. People saying "just use the armory system" are narrowing down on one very specific, tangential part of the discussion. It's a low-DPS issue, which is obviously most notable by being a tank. I don't know now many of you have read the dozens of "fake [insert role]" topics—and that the community doesn't believe there's anything such thing as a fake DD, just a DD doing low damage—but average DPS in this game is not 130k. There are plenty of DDs out there doing 5k~10k DPS. I suppose the armory system solves that as well, yeah? Maybe they just need to "git gud"?
Again, this is easily solved with a compromise: the first two weeks* after a chapter or area/story DLC releases, or during the entirety of an event (events which have mob/boss based loot drops, e.g. Plunder Skulls), the 3% requirement is disabled and loot will drop no matter what (no cap). Outside of that, everything observes normal loot drop behaviour.
* Two week intervals would assume a maintenance is to follow, so it would depend whether they want to do weekly or every two weeks.
Honestly, who does that harm if a DPS check is removed in overland content for two week intervals, equating to maybe one-third of a year, if even that? Who gets punished by keeping the DPS check and potential caps during those times when bosses die in 3 seconds and you barely get a chance to land even a single ability?
Edited by Troodon80 on June 12, 2022 9:47AM@Troodon80 PC | EU
Guild: N&S
Hand of Alkosh | Dawnbringer | Immortal Redeemer | Tick Tock Tormentor | Gryphon Heart
Deep Dive into Dreadsail Reef Mechanics4 -
Dietche✭✭✭1> Telling tanks to change to DPS to play a game they wish to play is a very fast way to **** off the guys and gals trying to save your bacon. It's especially irksome when it's being told to those tanks while discussing actual group content.
Here's a protip: some people *gasp* do not like to heal or DPS. IKR? Crazzyyyy!!!
Here's another protip: Insisting that tanks should change to DPS is a great way to ensure we have less tanks.
How are those long Q times for DPS working out for you now? Aren't truly fake tanks in DLC rando's, that don't even taunt, or block, or that can't even take a hit from an elite (let alone a boss) and live, just lovely?? That's fun, right? RIGHT?
Hey, if you are a DPS, and you can take a hit, block properly, *and* taunt, in any content you /might/ load into for a random, and sign up as a tank, I am absolutely all for that. Just makes the run faster, eh? But if not? You are a griefer, straight up.
2> This system is assuredly archaic and poorly implemented. There are better solutions.
Here's mine:
Healers: Healers get credit for loot if they heal, shield, buff, or purge 3 times on other people while the boss lives. It must be other people though, to prevent idle griefing. Go! Be freed, healers! Winter's Respite is our savior! You get a Barrier, and You there, You get a Barrier! EEEERRYYone gets a Barrierrrrrr!
{{Companions count as people for this rule, BTW, and if you say anything to the contrary my Mirri finnin' throw hands, bet! Don't @ me broseph, when she makes you her huckleberry.}}
Tanks: Tanks get credit for loot if they taunt, intercept or chain-pull 3 times (adds or boss) while the boss lives. ~~Problem solved~~
DPS: DPS gets credit for loot if they land 3 single target spells (adds or boss) while the boss lives.
Notice carefully please, as I thought about this for a long time now, that DPS has to use single target spells. This only requires 3 seconds of 'active actions'. Same amount of time and targeting restrictions as 3 taunts (etc), eh? I think that's pretty fair.
This stops all the crazy pre-loading of ground AOE before the boss even spawns, and should help slow down the 2 second boss kills when its an event, letting a LOT more people have a shot at loot per spawn, thusly clearing out bottlenecks.
But! It shouldn't affect the boss kill when, you know, it's just a normal wednesday. It also stops the 1-light-attack-and-go-idle griefers as well.
Thanks for reading, and your considerations.
--Dietche
Edit: forgot intercept/chain-pull for tanksEdited by Dietche on June 12, 2022 2:42PMGuild Leader: Sardonically Synthesized8 -
peacenote✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I remember when ZOS used to say originally that they would never add such a mechanic, lol.
Me too!!!MasterSpatula wrote: »There's gotta be a way to prevent leeching activity without punishing tanks. It's 2022. Devs have to be smart enough to solve this dilemma.
Why the *** would you ever use a tank for anything other than tanking dungeons and raids? Tanks are absolutely useless for anything but that. If you encounter an actvity that requires damage dont complain because a tank doesnt deal damage.
Ok a couple of things.
One. It happens a lot to me on my support classes where someone says "let's go do this daily quickly while the raid finishes forming." I might not be in a character with the armory set up, or I don't want to swap anything because if the activity takes longer than planned I may need to jump straight into playing. Logging in and out takes a long time. Reconfiguring is quicker but still can hold up the group. If I'm out soloing for a day I'll change what I am in but supports should be able to jump in opportunistically same as DPS and not miss out.
Two. It's not just tanks. I've had this happen on my healers, who do damage, or even on DPS who get to the fight right at the end. It's always a bummer.
I say, show more love to your supports and get rid of this "feature!"5 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭1> Telling tanks to change to DPS to play a game they wish to play is a very fast way to **** off the guys and gals trying to save your bacon. It's especially irksome when it's being told to those tanks while discussing actual group content.
Here's a protip: some people *gasp* do not like to heal or DPS. IKR? Crazzyyyy!!!
Here's another protip: Insisting that tanks should change to DPS is a great way to ensure we have less tanks.
How are those long Q times for DPS working out for you now? Aren't truly fake tanks in DLC rando's, that don't even taunt, or block, or that can't even take a hit from an elite (let alone a boss) and live, just lovely?? That's fun, right? RIGHT?
Hey, if you are a DPS, and you can take a hit, block properly, *and* taunt, in any content you /might/ load into for a random, and sign up as a tank, I am absolutely all for that. Just makes the run faster, eh? But if not? You are a griefer, straight up.
2> This system is assuredly archaic and poorly implemented. There are better solutions.
Here's mine:
Healers: Healers get credit for loot if they heal, shield, buff, or purge 3 times on other people while the boss lives. It must be other people though, to prevent idle griefing. Go! Be freed, healers! Winter's Respite is our savior! You get a Barrier, and You there, You get a Barrier! EEEERRYYone gets a Barrierrrrrr!
{{Companions count as people for this rule, BTW, and if you say anything to the contrary my Mirri finnin' throw hands, bet! Don't @ me broseph, when she makes you her huckleberry.}}
Tanks: Tanks get credit for loot if they taunt, intercept or chain-pull 3 times (adds or boss) while the boss lives. ~~Problem solved~~
DPS: DPS gets credit for loot if they land 3 single target spells (adds or boss) while the boss lives.
Notice carefully please, as I thought about this for a long time now, that DPS has to use single target spells. This only requires 3 seconds of 'active actions'. Same amount of time and targeting restrictions as 3 taunts (etc), eh? I think that's pretty fair.
This stops all the crazy pre-loading of ground AOE before the boss even spawns, and should help slow down the 2 second boss kills when its an event, letting a LOT more people have a shot at loot per spawn, thusly clearing out bottlenecks.
But! It shouldn't affect the boss kill when, you know, it's just a normal wednesday. It also stops the 1-light-attack-and-go-idle griefers as well.
Thanks for reading, and your considerations.
--Dietche
Edit: forgot intercept/chain-pull for tanks
But, world bosses aren't really "group content" in situations like this though. When there are 100 players camping the boss, no one needs your tank. It's wholly unnecessary. Slot a few DPS skills for a handful of minutes and then move on with your day.
Bring your tank to a WB when it is just a few players you are grouped with, or you see a few players on the WB fighting. That is when they are needed.3 -
TinyDragon✭✭✭@jaws343"But, world bosses aren't really "group content" in situations like this though. When there are 100 players camping the boss, no one needs your tank. It's wholly unnecessary. Slot a few DPS skills for a handful of minutes and then move on with your day.
Bring your tank to a WB when it is just a few players you are grouped with, or you see a few players on the WB fighting. That is when they are needed.
It's unreasonable to assume people are able to use the armory to change when they see who is there or not.
I don't want to spend 5,000 crowns on it, when I can port to my house before I do content. Once I'm in the world, there's *no* requirements for me to fit a certain role, be it tank, healer or dps. This is your assumption and belief, and you can't force it on others. It also flys in the face of the phrase ZoS loves so much; play as you want.
It also fails to address the point about loot. If I follow your arbitrary rules about when I should or should not bring a tank, I still won't get loot even if you're saying I might be helpful. Even if I slot a "handful of dps skills", I still won't get loot.
Even if I'm a PvP healer in IC, I won't get loot.
Your solution is not a solution at all.Edited by TinyDragon on June 14, 2022 3:54AM7 -
FangOfTheTwoMoons✭✭✭✭✭In IC this should definitely be removed. Sometimes you're forced off the boss to deal with other players, and missing out on loot because you were securing a boss sucks.5 -
VDoom1✭✭✭✭✭I wouldn't mind if this change was implemented, though I doubt it will happen.
If there are few people around, no problem, it's very easy to actually score some loot even if you don't do a lot of damage.
However, if there are like 30 or 50 people around, which is typically the case with new content, it becomes quite difficult to get loot. I agree that in that situation it doesn't seem entirely fair to the other 38 people who fought the same boss.
Personally my main character does everything, that character is a tank. So I have encountered this, I simply don't do a lot of damage on that character compared to someone who is a DD. I help to bring down the boss, but if there are 12 people or more around that usually means no loot. Doesn't seem very fair. A tank holds the boss and makes sure a DD or healer doesn't get one shot by some heavy attack or mechanic, and no loot.
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Troodon80✭✭✭✭✭
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Agreed. In addition to it being wholly unreasonable that 5k crowns are the cost of getting loot (loot boosters in the crown store when?), if you teleport to your house good luck getting back in time. This only works if you have the assistant. Not everyone does. The "rules for engagement" would basically be: teleport to the boss as a tank, have a look and see how many people there are. If (A) there is already a tank or (B) there are more than... let's say five people, then swap to a more DPS setup. This also fails to address what happens when another groups shows up a couple seconds after you. If you went in as a tank because both A and B were false, and now there are 25 people, your tank role now becomes obselete but this isn't something you could necessarily account for, nor realistically or reasonably swap via the Armory Assistant within the 4-10 seconds that the boss will remain alive for and still get loot.TinyDragon wrote: »It's unreasonable to assume people are able to use the armory to change when they see who is there or not.
I don't want to spend 5,000 crowns on it, when I can port to my house before I do content.
What a rediculous statement to make.
Group content is defined by ZOS, not by how many players are in a zone.But, world bosses aren't really "group content" in situations like this though.
They're called Group Bosses for a reason. Same as Group Events in public dungeons. As I said above, whether you can solo them is irrelevant to what they are intended to be.
Hyperbole is rarely a good argument. You're also failing to acknowledge that this isn't just a tank issue. You keep narrowing down on this one specific thing. But sure, I'll roll with it.When there are 100 players camping the boss, no one needs your tank.
Whether there are 100 or 1000 people, or just 1 person, doesn't change what they are. You're trying to redefine the meaning of something which is supposed to be done as a group to suit some arbitrary playstyle rules that you have based on the number of people who are actively hitting the boss, which isn't a good argument to make since it can always be a variable, dynamic number. World bosses are not four-player capped group dungeons. You might be there with a friend one second, while the next second you see a group of 15-20 players hurtle over a cliff and kill the boss you were smacking in 5-10 seconds. Let's say you're not a tank, you're just a new player. You're the unlucky one to have died to something while hitting the boss. The other players kill it while you're reviving and despite participating you get no loot. Let's say you're a new player and you simply don't have the DPS to compete against the other 15-20 players who just arrived and nuked it? Again, this isn't just a tank issue.
Besides the fact that if you had 100 tanks all doing 4k DPS, a group boss with 2,5m health would still die in 6.25 seconds. In addition to this, if they were all doing the same 4k DPS none of them would get loot as they would fall short of the 3% needed, each would only do in the region of 25k total damage, a full 50k short of the 75k needed for a boss with 2.5m health. If at least 12 people got high enough to hit 3% (75k), the other 88 (25k) players likely wouldn't get loot anyway since they couldn't also hit the required 3% within that time.*
Slightly more reasonably speaking, even if we completely disregard whatever cap on the number of players who can get loot: if everyone only did exactly the 3% required to get loot, only 33~35 players can get loot. Which would mean the other 65~70 players are out of luck.
Who needs your DD when we have hyperbole?
Anyone, and this isn't limited to supports, who cannot hit the required amount of damage within the capped number (some people say it's 12 while others say they know for a fact it's more than 12, so I no longer know what to believe outside of an official and up to date statement) will not get loot.
* (Acknowledgement: bots are impacted by this as well, meaning it's also a good thing to keep a damage requirement, which is why I think the more "fair" option is something of a compromise as I mentioned above, rather than it being a permanent "everyone gets loot all the time.")
@Troodon80 PC | EU
Guild: N&S
Hand of Alkosh | Dawnbringer | Immortal Redeemer | Tick Tock Tormentor | Gryphon Heart
Deep Dive into Dreadsail Reef Mechanics4 -
Anony_Mouse✭✭✭✭Rishikesa108 wrote: »When I go with my guild mates in IC farming bosses... sometime I use my healer character... Those times I often miss the loot: it's so clear, a healer doesn't do damage !!! And so he doesn't deserve the loot...
I don't think this is fair...
This 100000%. It sucks being a healer in IC as it is just not rewarding enough.6 -
peacenote✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Not to derail the thread or anything but this is where overland difficulty and also the newer group size limitation comes in. Things dying very quickly/power creep and the inability to join the group, even if you wanted to, because it's probably full, exacerbate this issue.
Also, if I recall correctly, a while back ZOS did improve who got credit for keep captures in Cyro so it worked better and it was more inclusive, so maybe this IS an issue that could get some attention if we keep pointing it out.3 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TinyDragon wrote: »@jaws343"But, world bosses aren't really "group content" in situations like this though. When there are 100 players camping the boss, no one needs your tank. It's wholly unnecessary. Slot a few DPS skills for a handful of minutes and then move on with your day.
Bring your tank to a WB when it is just a few players you are grouped with, or you see a few players on the WB fighting. That is when they are needed.
It's unreasonable to assume people are able to use the armory to change when they see who is there or not.
I don't want to spend 5,000 crowns on it, when I can port to my house before I do content. Once I'm in the world, there's *no* requirements for me to fit a certain role, be it tank, healer or dps. This is your assumption and belief, and you can't force it on others. It also flys in the face of the phrase ZoS loves so much; play as you want.
It also fails to address the point about loot. If I follow your arbitrary rules about when I should or should not bring a tank, I still won't get loot even if you're saying I might be helpful. Even if I slot a "handful of dps skills", I still won't get loot.
Even if I'm a PvP healer in IC, I won't get loot.
Your solution is not a solution at all.
That's not what play as you want means...
Play as you want means you can play any content you want. It doesn't mean that you can be successful at any content without properly preparing for it. It doesn't meant that a tank should be competitive with a dps. It doesn't mean that a group focused build will be, or should be, successful in non group content.0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TinyDragon wrote: »@jaws343"But, world bosses aren't really "group content" in situations like this though. When there are 100 players camping the boss, no one needs your tank. It's wholly unnecessary. Slot a few DPS skills for a handful of minutes and then move on with your day.
Bring your tank to a WB when it is just a few players you are grouped with, or you see a few players on the WB fighting. That is when they are needed.
It's unreasonable to assume people are able to use the armory to change when they see who is there or not.
I don't want to spend 5,000 crowns on it, when I can port to my house before I do content. Once I'm in the world, there's *no* requirements for me to fit a certain role, be it tank, healer or dps. This is your assumption and belief, and you can't force it on others. It also flys in the face of the phrase ZoS loves so much; play as you want.
It also fails to address the point about loot. If I follow your arbitrary rules about when I should or should not bring a tank, I still won't get loot even if you're saying I might be helpful. Even if I slot a "handful of dps skills", I still won't get loot.
Even if I'm a PvP healer in IC, I won't get loot.
Your solution is not a solution at all.
That's not what play as you want means...
Play as you want means you can play any content you want. It doesn't mean that you can be successful at any content without properly preparing for it. It doesn't meant that a tank should be competitive with a dps. It doesn't mean that a group focused build will be, or should be, successful in non group content.
World Bosses are explicitly group content. A tank shouldn't have to compete with a dps at doing dps, that's nonsense game design. They should also be considering damage blocked and healed for rewards. And before you say that world bosses are not group content...they are. They are labeled as Group Bosses in the game itself, a few of them have mechanics that require multiple people to be able to beat them (like Unmaker in Deadlands), and that people can solo some of them is irrelevant. There's a guy that posted videos on here of himself soloing the hard mode of MOS and I believe he's soloed a trial boss before as well. It doesn't make those non-group content either.Edited by spartaxoxo on June 14, 2022 1:28PM5 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
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Agreed. In addition to it being wholly unreasonable that 5k crowns are the cost of getting loot (loot boosters in the crown store when?), if you teleport to your house good luck getting back in time. This only works if you have the assistant. Not everyone does. The "rules for engagement" would basically be: teleport to the boss as a tank, have a look and see how many people there are. If (A) there is already a tank or (B) there are more than... let's say five people, then swap to a more DPS setup. This also fails to address what happens when another groups shows up a couple seconds after you. If you went in as a tank because both A and B were false, and now there are 25 people, your tank role now becomes obselete but this isn't something you could necessarily account for, nor realistically or reasonably swap via the Armory Assistant within the 4-10 seconds that the boss will remain alive for and still get loot.TinyDragon wrote: »It's unreasonable to assume people are able to use the armory to change when they see who is there or not.
I don't want to spend 5,000 crowns on it, when I can port to my house before I do content.
What a rediculous statement to make.
Group content is defined by ZOS, not by how many players are in a zone.But, world bosses aren't really "group content" in situations like this though.
They're called Group Bosses for a reason. Same as Group Events in public dungeons. As I said above, whether you can solo them is irrelevant to what they are intended to be.
Hyperbole is rarely a good argument. You're also failing to acknowledge that this isn't just a tank issue. You keep narrowing down on this one specific thing. But sure, I'll roll with it.When there are 100 players camping the boss, no one needs your tank.
Whether there are 100 or 1000 people, or just 1 person, doesn't change what they are. You're trying to redefine the meaning of something which is supposed to be done as a group to suit some arbitrary playstyle rules that you have based on the number of people who are actively hitting the boss, which isn't a good argument to make since it can always be a variable, dynamic number. World bosses are not four-player capped group dungeons. You might be there with a friend one second, while the next second you see a group of 15-20 players hurtle over a cliff and kill the boss you were smacking in 5-10 seconds. Let's say you're not a tank, you're just a new player. You're the unlucky one to have died to something while hitting the boss. The other players kill it while you're reviving and despite participating you get no loot. Let's say you're a new player and you simply don't have the DPS to compete against the other 15-20 players who just arrived and nuked it? Again, this isn't just a tank issue.
Besides the fact that if you had 100 tanks all doing 4k DPS, a group boss with 2,5m health would still die in 6.25 seconds. In addition to this, if they were all doing the same 4k DPS none of them would get loot as they would fall short of the 3% needed, each would only do in the region of 25k total damage, a full 50k short of the 75k needed for a boss with 2.5m health. If at least 12 people got high enough to hit 3% (75k), the other 88 (25k) players likely wouldn't get loot anyway since they couldn't also hit the required 3% within that time.*
Slightly more reasonably speaking, even if we completely disregard whatever cap on the number of players who can get loot: if everyone only did exactly the 3% required to get loot, only 33~35 players can get loot. Which would mean the other 65~70 players are out of luck.
Who needs your DD when we have hyperbole?
Anyone, and this isn't limited to supports, who cannot hit the required amount of damage within the capped number (some people say it's 12 while others say they know for a fact it's more than 12, so I no longer know what to believe outside of an official and up to date statement) will not get loot.
* (Acknowledgement: bots are impacted by this as well, meaning it's also a good thing to keep a damage requirement, which is why I think the more "fair" option is something of a compromise as I mentioned above, rather than it being a permanent "everyone gets loot all the time.")
It wasn't really hyperbole. It was a pointed statement in regards to people thinking their tank, which is a build specifically intended to support players, is needed in these large group boss farming scenarios. It isn't. No one needs your tank to taunt the boss and absorb damage in clearly farmed world boss situations. Just stop. Keep your tank to instanced group scenarios and stop trying to act like it belongs in all content at all times. It doesn't. You know, for a fact, that the boss you are heading to, to farm a lead, is going to have a ton of players. No one needs you to tank the boss.
People are complaining that there tanks cannot compete in situations that are clearly, and have always been clearly, not for tanks. This isn't some random WB you stumble on and help out another player. This is a very intentionally farmed boss that you already know will be swarmed with players. Prepare properly for it. That's all I am saying.
The loot cap is irrelevant here, because it applies to everyone. The least you can do is at least try to hit it, instead of just showing up on a pure tank and expecting to do nothing and get rewarded for it. Your taunt is useless since the boss is going to die fast, your 1 light attack is meaningless to the fight, etc. Nothing a pure tank can bring to a boss farming situation is useful in any meaningful way. Why should they be rewarded for that. Why should anyone be rewarded for minimal contributions to the fight.
And let's be honest, most players who get loot do no more than drop an AOE ult and like 1 ground base AOE. Just Wall of Elements and a destro ult and you are more likely than not going to get loot from the boss. 2 skills. That's not a lot to ask.2 -
Dietche✭✭✭It wasn't really hyperbole. It was a pointed statement in regards to people thinking their tank, which is a build specifically intended to support players, is needed in these large group boss farming scenarios. It isn't. No one needs your tank to taunt the boss and absorb damage in clearly farmed world boss situations. Just stop. Keep your tank to instanced group scenarios and stop trying to act like it belongs in all content at all times. It doesn't. You know, for a fact, that the boss you are heading to, to farm a lead, is going to have a ton of players. No one needs you to tank the boss.
People are complaining that there tanks cannot compete in situations that are clearly, and have always been clearly, not for tanks. This isn't some random WB you stumble on and help out another player. This is a very intentionally farmed boss that you already know will be swarmed with players. Prepare properly for it. That's all I am saying.
The loot cap is irrelevant here, because it applies to everyone. The least you can do is at least try to hit it, instead of just showing up on a pure tank and expecting to do nothing and get rewarded for it. Your taunt is useless since the boss is going to die fast, your 1 light attack is meaningless to the fight, etc. Nothing a pure tank can bring to a boss farming situation is useful in any meaningful way. Why should they be rewarded for that. Why should anyone be rewarded for minimal contributions to the fight.
And let's be honest, most players who get loot do no more than drop an AOE ult and like 1 ground base AOE. Just Wall of Elements and a destro ult and you are more likely than not going to get loot from the boss. 2 skills. That's not a lot to ask.
Wow. Just... WOW. I cannot begin to even pick apart how many statements you just made that are either wrong or narrow minded.
Instead, I'll just say this:
There are a significant number of people who are new, sub cp200. I routinely tell new players like that, especially those that join my guild, that they should focus on their main character and put off making alts until they at least finish unlocking their Champion Points on their account, so that making alts is easier down the road.
I often tell them to wait even a bit longer, so that the CP gains matches the monster power curves, which occurs around, oh, say, 225-300. This lets those new players focus better, learning their chosen Main's role, as well as encounters, crafting and other basic game mechanics, and even get their feet wet in "easy" Vet runs with the guild, opening them up to Monster Gear.
The point being: even without saying that to them, new players often only have ONE character in the first place anyway. A lot of times, that is a tank, leaving them with only a tank as an option to have fun during an event. They have not had time yet to be able to have twin sets of armor farmed up, or learn two roles, or have all their spells and skills learned and morphed. They are still learning how to tank in the first place.
Then we come to those that simply do not like making alts, at all. They have one Main. They farm achievements, quests, zones, trials, etc, all on that ONE Main. A rather large fraction of players in ESO are like this, many of them tanks, and ONLY tanks. They have absolutely no desire to heal or DPS in any way, and when they approach group content, they do tanky tanky things. The only concession to this they make is crafting writ alts.
Your insistence that these people that enjoy the game, and play it in their own way, ==must change to fit your narrow viewpoint== is truly ludicrous. It's also toxic, unwelcoming, and elitist.
Instead, how about we focus on making the game itself fairer, by updating archaic and outdated mechanics, so that a tank or healer has a chance to get a drop doing the things THEY love to do instead of being forced to do something they aren't very good at, or even hate doing?
Guild Leader: Sardonically Synthesized3 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It wasn't really hyperbole. It was a pointed statement in regards to people thinking their tank, which is a build specifically intended to support players, is needed in these large group boss farming scenarios. It isn't. No one needs your tank to taunt the boss and absorb damage in clearly farmed world boss situations. Just stop. Keep your tank to instanced group scenarios and stop trying to act like it belongs in all content at all times. It doesn't. You know, for a fact, that the boss you are heading to, to farm a lead, is going to have a ton of players. No one needs you to tank the boss.
People are complaining that there tanks cannot compete in situations that are clearly, and have always been clearly, not for tanks. This isn't some random WB you stumble on and help out another player. This is a very intentionally farmed boss that you already know will be swarmed with players. Prepare properly for it. That's all I am saying.
The loot cap is irrelevant here, because it applies to everyone. The least you can do is at least try to hit it, instead of just showing up on a pure tank and expecting to do nothing and get rewarded for it. Your taunt is useless since the boss is going to die fast, your 1 light attack is meaningless to the fight, etc. Nothing a pure tank can bring to a boss farming situation is useful in any meaningful way. Why should they be rewarded for that. Why should anyone be rewarded for minimal contributions to the fight.
And let's be honest, most players who get loot do no more than drop an AOE ult and like 1 ground base AOE. Just Wall of Elements and a destro ult and you are more likely than not going to get loot from the boss. 2 skills. That's not a lot to ask.
Wow. Just... WOW. I cannot begin to even pick apart how many statements you just made that are either wrong or narrow minded.
Instead, I'll just say this:
There are a significant number of people who are new, sub cp200. I routinely tell new players like that, especially those that join my guild, that they should focus on their main character and put off making alts until they at least finish unlocking their Champion Points on their account, so that making alts is easier down the road.
I often tell them to wait even a bit longer, so that the CP gains matches the monster power curves, which occurs around, oh, say, 225-300. This lets those new players focus better, learning their chosen Main's role, as well as encounters, crafting and other basic game mechanics, and even get their feet wet in "easy" Vet runs with the guild, opening them up to Monster Gear.
The point being: even without saying that to them, new players often only have ONE character in the first place anyway. A lot of times, that is a tank, leaving them with only a tank as an option to have fun during an event. They have not had time yet to be able to have twin sets of armor farmed up, or learn two roles, or have all their spells and skills learned and morphed. They are still learning how to tank in the first place.
Then we come to those that simply do not like making alts, at all. They have one Main. They farm achievements, quests, zones, trials, etc, all on that ONE Main. A rather large fraction of players in ESO are like this, many of them tanks, and ONLY tanks. They have absolutely no desire to heal or DPS in any way, and when they approach group content, they do tanky tanky things. The only concession to this they make is crafting writ alts.
Your insistence that these people that enjoy the game, and play it in their own way, ==must change to fit your narrow viewpoint== is truly ludicrous. It's also toxic, unwelcoming, and elitist.
Instead, how about we focus on making the game itself fairer, by updating archaic and outdated mechanics, so that a tank or healer has a chance to get a drop doing the things THEY love to do instead of being forced to do something they aren't very good at, or even hate doing?
Expecting people to make changes when they are attempting to do something that doesn't fit to the playstyle they are currently playing in is no where near ludicrous.
Like, if I enter into cyrodil on my PVE build, I should expect to fail pretty miserably. If I enter into a dungeon not prepared to tank it, in the tank role, I should expect to fail. If I enter anything, unprepared for that situation, I should fail.
Walking into a clear farming situation unprepared, you should expect to fail.0
