"PVP" and "Cyrodiil" Gets you Banned on Twitch

spartaxoxo · May 2022

This isn't a forum with that type of system, so talking about immediately triggering a 3 strikes rule doesn't apply. And multiple posts aren't one extended infraction, they are each their own infraction. Obviously it should take behavior across multiple threads to issue a ban, but doesn't mean everything you do in that one thread is one infraction. You can have multiple infractions within the same thread, which makes your behavior more likely to trigger a suspension.

A person constantly insulting others in a thread is more disruptive than someone who says one off-handed comment. And should be treated and informed as such, especially since they may not understand the nature of their ban otherwise. If the person was issuing obviously false reports then that, as already stated, is an abuse. Because it is false. As I stated earlier, quality of reports is the determing factor.

They can say "it's not that you ever said anything outrageous, it's that you wouldn't leave that other person alone and relentlessly insulted them for 10 posts." Repeated attacking someone goes from a snide comment to harassment. And harassment is more severe than a single inappropriate comment, and should be treated as such.

Elsonso wrote: »

In addition to this, I am guessing the moderators don't read a comment until summoned.

That's incorrect. They prioritize clearing flags but they also read outside of them. Most of the stuff they moderate on a given day may not even be flagged. Sometimes they will also monitor a thread that is likely to be controversial, and read all of the replies in it. You'll often see such threads get shutdown pretty quick. Often because the mod doesn't feel like keeping a constant eye on it, so the second they see it even remotely going off on a closable tangent or needing some light editing, they will take the opportunity to close it. In addition, a mod may get flagged down for an unrelated to your post, and as they are reading the thread for content decide to moderate your post too.

VaranisArano · May 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

It's an unfortunate truth. They are hiding behind reporting for their abusive behavior.

Excessive reporting should be a flag to look at user.

It's only abusive if it's not true, and they aren't digging through years old posts in your profile to find flags. If someone is legitimately being harassed by constant derogatory remarks being made about or too them, then they should be able to report without fear of repercussion. Nobody should be able to harass or gang up on a user to run them out of a thread. If a person kept getting flagged because they couldn't stop insulting someone, they are not being harassed. They are facing the consequences of repeated bad behavior.

It's abusive when taken out of context in what the other person is doing. Imagine a thread with 10 posts moderated. Something else is going in with user

What do you mean taken out of the context of what the person is doing?

Something along the line of

Person A: I think they should nerf wrecking blow
Person B: You only think that because you're a noob that's bad at the game
Person B gets modded, response deleted
Person A: I always die to it being spammed
Person B: If you die to spam you deserve to get rekt. Get good scrub
Person B gets modded, response deleted
Person B: How is that bait? This guy is just some chump who doesn't want to improve at the game and just wants to kill the game for the rest of us. Noobs shouldn't post.
Person B gets modded, response deleted and 3 day suspension.

Something like that? ETA: Because to me in this entirely fictional example, that is 3 legit reports that added up against the user.

I've seen cases like that too, where I'll read it and think "Whelp, that whole section is going away once a moderator sees it."

Another example of when there'll be a rash of reports is when I've seen something bigger going on with a single OP followed up by whole chunks of their threads getting nuked for flaming/baiting or repeatedly getting their threads closed after it derails with insults/baiting. It's generally a case where there's a pattern of behavior on the OP's part that's carried over into multiple threads.

(This is a made-up example, and any resemblance to other forum posters is wholly unintentional.)

There's nothing wrong with me deciding that I'm going to make a series of threads begging ZOS to nerf every class except my beloved MagDKs, campaigning to make ESO more like my other MMO Warframe, or starting up a bunch of debates only to drop them like a hot potato when people disagree with me. The Mods rightfully assume I'm acting in good faith as long as I'm not breaking the rules.

But if I did that, and I refused to engage with reasonable criticism or take good advice, other posters would get pretty frustrated with my repeated pattern of behavior.

So when I post thread #5 "A necromancer killed me this week, nerf necro/buff my MagDK", the frustrated poster(s) who jump straight to "OMG scrub, git gut already instead of asking for nerfs," are gonna get nuked.

Again, that's the right call by the mods, because that sort of frustration posting is flaming me and derailing my thread, which they rightfully assume I've posted in good faith. The Mods are here to ensure we have a good place to discuss, not to make a judgment call and tell me that after 5 complaint threads I should maybe take some of the advice I've been given before #6.

Meanwhile the frustrated poster(s) are still frustrated, because they see the pattern of my behavior over multiple threads and aren't willing to give me the presumption of good faith any more. Nor do they feel they can ignore me entirely, since they fear the Devs might listen to me and do something they feel is bad for the game. And so when I continue to make post #6 "A sorc killed me this week, nerf sorc/Buff MagDK", the commentary on my threads just gets more heated as frustrated forum posters try to play whack-a-mole with me, I flame back or report the people flaming me, and the mods play whack-a-mole with our angry posts.

I'm sure it's a mess to moderate when something like that starts happening.

Those were the situations where I learned that if my comment was mostly on topic, it would probably survive the inevitable moderation pass even if I did l comment on the repeated pattern of behavior. Or perhaps the louder voices getting removed for flaming merely made me sound reasonable by comparison.

starkerealm · May 2022

Lumenn wrote: »

I'm putting this in the FIRST section as some have issues with having an OPINION that doesn't match their own. I FULLY understand I'm old. My way of thinking may be outdated to a time when life was rougher and being offended took more than it does now to be a problem. Believe me I understand even minor offenses sends some into fits, some people have mental health issues, and overall its just not nice. I STILL think moderation should be limited to threats, hate speech, any of the "isms"(race, gender, etc) and topics should be in game only.

I am, disturbingly, older than I look, and even back in the day, we knew when someone was being a dumpsterfire. It was socially permissible to pick and choose our language so that we could denigrate someone by associating them with a group that fell outside of social norms, but that didn't mean it was, "okay."

And, as someone who was, as a kid, dealing with some pretty serious trauma, and was frequently harassed by my peers and adults (remember when that was socially acceptable?) I have zero sympathy for the people who, today, are like, "but, I just want to call people <insert hideously offensive pejorative here>, like I used to."

starkerealm · May 2022

@VaranisArano, it's even worse than that, because I can remember a specific case where someone kept coming back with the most startlingly bad hot takes. (This was back 2014/2015.) Like, they'd post complaining about how PC transfers to console had an entire year to grind up CP in Craglorn and were unbeatable in PvP as a result, (there's, like, five things wrong with that sentence.)

The problem was, I'm pretty sure they were actually on the level, but it looked like they were trolling, and they got some really nasty responses from the community. I think they even soaked a suspension for one of their threads, though I can't remember the exact details.

There's a real Poe's Law element to some of this stuff.

spartaxoxo · May 2022

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'm sure it's a mess to moderate when something like that starts happening.
Those were the situations where I learned that if my comment was mostly on topic, it would probably survive the inevitable moderation pass even if I did l comment on the repeated pattern of behavior. Or perhaps the louder voices getting removed for flaming merely made me sound reasonable by comparison.

Those are a mess to moderate, and they usually start being looked into only after someone does the correct thing and starts flagging that person's posts for spam rather than flaming them. Because flaming them is not the appropriate response to their spam, even if does feel good. It's against the rules whether the person you're flaming is also a rule breaker or not.

At that point the moderators will tend to see if the person is engaged in reasonable discussion, and simply have an unpopular opinion they are sticking with. Or if they are just spamming threads to enjoy the flames.

ETA:If the former, then it's usually enough just to remove the aggressive comments. People tend to stop flaming the topic and engaging with it when that happens. If the latter, you ban the person for spam. This is actually one of the reasons the duplicate posts rules exists.

And reasonable discussion doesn't mean that they took into account criticism. They don't actually have to agree with anything the crowd says. But are they defending their own stance? Using counter examples/points that are reasonably worded? Is every new thread legitimately a different topic. Etc.

A lot of posters treat "they have an unlikeable opinion" as the same thing as "they deserve to get flamed because they are baiting." And that's absolutely not the case.

VaranisArano · May 2022

starkerealm wrote: »

@VaranisArano, it's even worse than that, because I can remember a specific case where someone kept coming back with the most startlingly bad hot takes. (This was back 2014/2015.) Like, they'd post complaining about how PC transfers to console had an entire year to grind up CP in Craglorn and were unbeatable in PvP as a result, (there's, like, five things wrong with that sentence.)

The problem was, I'm pretty sure they were actually on the level, but it looked like they were trolling, and they got some really nasty responses from the community. I think they even soaked a suspension for one of their threads, though I can't remember the exact details.

There's a real Poe's Law element to some of this stuff.

Definitely! I certainly prefer that the Mods give us the benefit of the doubt than vice versa.

In the cases I was thinking of, I totally understood why posters got frustrated and why those OPs got the reputation they did. (ETA: I don't condone the flaming. We're supposed to stay polite even when frustrated.)

But at the same time, the mods did a pretty good job of removing the flaming and warning everyone to treat each other as if we're all posting in good faith. That being said, I look back at some of those threads from 2018-20 and think "Man, I'm surprised the Mods left some of these comments up," so maybe the loudest voices who got removed were worse than I remember.

One quirk of these forums is that the Ignore function only works for comments, not Threads, or I would've happily ignored some of those posters. Instead I just developed an aversion for particular forum icons that really isn't fair to all the other players who use them since.

VaranisArano · May 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'm sure it's a mess to moderate when something like that starts happening.
Those were the situations where I learned that if my comment was mostly on topic, it would probably survive the inevitable moderation pass even if I did l comment on the repeated pattern of behavior. Or perhaps the louder voices getting removed for flaming merely made me sound reasonable by comparison.

Those are a mess to moderate, and they usually start being looked into only after someone does the correct thing and starts flagging that person's posts for spam rather than flaming them. Because flaming them is not the appropriate response to their spam, even if does feel good. It's against the rules whether the person you're flaming is also a rule breaker or not.

At that point the moderators will tend to see if the person is engaged in reasonable discussion, and simply have an unpopular opinion they are sticking with. Or if they are just spamming threads to enjoy the flames.

ETA:If the former, then it's usually enough just to remove the aggressive comments. People tend to stop flaming the topic and engaging with it when that happens. If the latter, you ban the person for spam. This is actually one of the reasons the duplicate posts rules exists.

And reasonable discussion doesn't mean that they took into account criticism. They don't actually have to agree with anything the crowd says. But are they defending their own stance? Using counter examples/points that are reasonably worded? Is every new thread legitimately a different topic. Etc.

A lot of posters treat "they have an unlikeable opinion" as the same thing as "they deserve to get flamed because they are baiting." And that's absolutely not the case.

That pretty neatly describes the dynamic going on with the OPs I'm thinking of, and the complexity of the moderating decisions being made.

Lumenn · May 2022

starkerealm wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

I'm putting this in the FIRST section as some have issues with having an OPINION that doesn't match their own. I FULLY understand I'm old. My way of thinking may be outdated to a time when life was rougher and being offended took more than it does now to be a problem. Believe me I understand even minor offenses sends some into fits, some people have mental health issues, and overall its just not nice. I STILL think moderation should be limited to threats, hate speech, any of the "isms"(race, gender, etc) and topics should be in game only.

I am, disturbingly, older than I look, and even back in the day, we knew when someone was being a dumpsterfire. It was socially permissible to pick and choose our language so that we could denigrate someone by associating them with a group that fell outside of social norms, but that didn't mean it was, "okay."

And, as someone who was, as a kid, dealing with some pretty serious trauma, and was frequently harassed by my peers and adults (remember when that was socially acceptable?) I have zero sympathy for the people who, today, are like, "but, I just want to call people <insert hideously offensive pejorative here>, like I used to."

Socially acceptable....well I suppose that depends on what social group you were around. Some say "home correction" was socially acceptable in the generations before mine, but I can assure you there were people who frowned and acted against wife/child beaters as well, and it wasn't "socially acceptable " overall. As for childhood bullies, well, that's an entirely different discussion and this isn't the place for discussing what's wrong with much of our youth.

In regards to your personal childhood trauma and subsequent possible personal emotional and mental health issues you still have today(and I'm not being insensitive here) we all, every single adult has them and many children. I for one won't say anyone's issues are worse, or better than another's. I can't judge someone's pain, and they can't judge mine.

I've never advocated for a "free for all" . I advocate for a reduction of the over all moderation to just hate speech, threats, etc . It makes sense from a business (payroll) sense if you'd read my earlier comments. I don't need to run to a mod because someone (hypothetical example here mods, don't nail me please) calls me a stupid doo Doo head. Mods shouldn't have to waste their time on adults dealing with that. If someone were to make a threat, use a racial, gender slur etc then by all means get them. And keep it GAME related. That should take care of most major issues. Trolls will troll no matter what rules you put up. And despite how many mods are hovering over a forum not everyone's sensitivities can be protected. Mod the legal stuff , keep it game related,and the rest is up to the adults. Zos can age restrict the forums same as the game. Zos is covered, the over moderation is lessened, and zos might even redirect some mods to in game G.M.s

starkerealm · May 2022

Lumenn wrote: »

Socially acceptable....well I suppose that depends on what social group you were around.

Yes and no. Social standards have changed. Even 20 years ago, you could refer to someone in public using language that would get you (almost) universally shunned today. Some pejoratives that frequently popped up on the internet a decade ago are now solidly off-limits.

Actually, a major example of this that comes to mind was the TV series Law & Order. The show started airing in '90, and by the standards of the time, had a bit of grit to it (in the context of broadcast TV, anyway.) Back around 2013 or 2014 I picked up the DVDs. Something that I'd legitimately forgotten was the use of uncensored racial slurs in several of the early episodes. And that does speak to what I'm talking about here. At that point in time, 32 years ago, the use of those slurs was still repugnant, but was still socially acceptable enough that NBC had no qualms about putting them in a primetime show.

Looking back 20 or 30 years, there was a lot of abusive language that people used with impunity, and without facing serious social stigma.

Fast forward to a few years ago, and an acquaintance of mine had their Twitch account suspended because, while streaming a trial, one of the members of their team used that exact same racial slur. Separated by 28 years, it went from, this is less offensive than garden variety profanity, to saying this publicly in public will end your career.

And, again, we knew this was offensive 40 years ago. We knew this was hurtful, and the entire reason it was being used was to demean others. But, it was socially acceptable enough to stick it on broadcast TV.

SilverBride · May 2022

Lumenn wrote: »

I don't need to run to a mod because someone (hypothetical example here mods, don't nail me please) calls me a stupid doo Doo head. Mods shouldn't have to waste their time on adults dealing with that.

It doesn't matter if the name is what some consider mild or if it's hate speech, it still is not appropriate to call someone names in a forum discussion. Besides being inappropriate it lends absolutely nothing constructive to the conversation.

VaranisArano · May 2022

Lumenn wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

I'm putting this in the FIRST section as some have issues with having an OPINION that doesn't match their own. I FULLY understand I'm old. My way of thinking may be outdated to a time when life was rougher and being offended took more than it does now to be a problem. Believe me I understand even minor offenses sends some into fits, some people have mental health issues, and overall its just not nice. I STILL think moderation should be limited to threats, hate speech, any of the "isms"(race, gender, etc) and topics should be in game only.

I am, disturbingly, older than I look, and even back in the day, we knew when someone was being a dumpsterfire. It was socially permissible to pick and choose our language so that we could denigrate someone by associating them with a group that fell outside of social norms, but that didn't mean it was, "okay."

And, as someone who was, as a kid, dealing with some pretty serious trauma, and was frequently harassed by my peers and adults (remember when that was socially acceptable?) I have zero sympathy for the people who, today, are like, "but, I just want to call people <insert hideously offensive pejorative here>, like I used to."

Socially acceptable....well I suppose that depends on what social group you were around. Some say "home correction" was socially acceptable in the generations before mine, but I can assure you there were people who frowned and acted against wife/child beaters as well, and it wasn't "socially acceptable " overall. As for childhood bullies, well, that's an entirely different discussion and this isn't the place for discussing what's wrong with much of our youth.

In regards to your personal childhood trauma and subsequent possible personal emotional and mental health issues you still have today(and I'm not being insensitive here) we all, every single adult has them and many children. I for one won't say anyone's issues are worse, or better than another's. I can't judge someone's pain, and they can't judge mine.

I've never advocated for a "free for all" . I advocate for a reduction of the over all moderation to just hate speech, threats, etc . It makes sense from a business (payroll) sense if you'd read my earlier comments. I don't need to run to a mod because someone (hypothetical example here mods, don't nail me please) calls me a stupid doo Doo head. Mods shouldn't have to waste their time on adults dealing with that. If someone were to make a threat, use a racial, gender slur etc then by all means get them. And keep it GAME related. That should take care of most major issues. Trolls will troll no matter what rules you put up. And despite how many mods are hovering over a forum not everyone's sensitivities can be protected. Mod the legal stuff , keep it game related,and the rest is up to the adults. Zos can age restrict the forums same as the game. Zos is covered, the over moderation is lessened, and zos might even redirect some mods to in game G.M.s

Someone calling me a stupid doo doo head is a good example of the times when I would bust out the old "If you are going to insult me, this conversation is effectively over. If you want to continue discussing the topic at hand with me, please do it without the insults."

Because that sort of thing isn't acceptable in conversations between adults, no matter how "mild" it is compared to other slurs.

I wouldn't say that in a meeting. I wouldn't say that to my colleagues. I certainly wouldn't say that to my students or allow them to say it to each other. Allowing people to belittle each other on a regular basis makes for an unpleasant learning/work environment, and a forum isn't that much different.

Most of us here are adults who understand how to act appropriately and professionally in a corporate setting. But because this is a forum, and we're all relatively anonymous on the internet, some people seem to forget that the official forums are an extension of ZOS' corporate space. So if a post is a violation of polite, professional behavior expected of adults (which, yes, includes calling someone a stupid doo doo head), then it's likely to get moderated.

I'm not perfect on that score. Like I said, I've been warned before, and each time I went "Okay, yeah, in hindsight that really wasn't very professional of me. Or kind, for that matter. Self, maybe it's time to chill out for a bit."

Ilsabet · May 2022

(plz don't report me I made it just for you)

Lumenn · May 2022

starkerealm wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

Socially acceptable....well I suppose that depends on what social group you were around.

Yes and no. Social standards have changed. Even 20 years ago, you could refer to someone in public using language that would get you (almost) universally shunned today. Some pejoratives that frequently popped up on the internet a decade ago are now solidly off-limits.

Actually, a major example of this that comes to mind was the TV series Law & Order. The show started airing in '90, and by the standards of the time, had a bit of grit to it (in the context of broadcast TV, anyway.) Back around 2013 or 2014 I picked up the DVDs. Something that I'd legitimately forgotten was the use of uncensored racial slurs in several of the early episodes. And that does speak to what I'm talking about here. At that point in time, 32 years ago, the use of those slurs was still repugnant, but was still socially acceptable enough that NBC had no qualms about putting them in a primetime show.

Looking back 20 or 30 years, there was a lot of abusive language that people used with impunity, and without facing serious social stigma.

Fast forward to a few years ago, and an acquaintance of mine had their Twitch account suspended because, while streaming a trial, one of the members of their team used that exact same racial slur. Separated by 28 years, it went from, this is less offensive than garden variety profanity, to saying this publicly in public will end your career.

And, again, we knew this was offensive 40 years ago. We knew this was hurtful, and the entire reason it was being used was to demean others. But, it was socially acceptable enough to stick it on broadcast TV.

I suppose we'll have to disagree on what "acceptable" means. You said yourself even then it was repugnant. I don't consider repugnant acceptable by any means. One may technically have the RIGHT to say it, but it doesn't make it acceptable. And as one of my favorite series you admitted yourself they were a bit "gritty" and edgy. Follow some of the actors and you'll find many of their views on EVERYTHING we're almost total opposite of their characters.

SilverBride wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

I don't need to run to a mod because someone (hypothetical example here mods, don't nail me please) calls me a stupid doo Doo head. Mods shouldn't have to waste their time on adults dealing with that.

It doesn't matter if the name is what some consider mild or if it's hate speech, it still is not appropriate to call someone names in a forum discussion. Besides being inappropriate it lends absolutely nothing constructive to the conversation.

And I don't disagree with you. It's our reaction to said troll that differs. I personally think curse words are crass, racial slurs are ignorant, and sexism belongs to people with a single digit I.Q. I just dont usually let mean words upset me. Can a poster punch me? Hurt my family? No, they just spew mean things at me, if I even give them the time of day. If one can't be civilized, they aren't taking the topic seriously and are not worth my time. Now hate speech I mentioned due to legal liabilities zos may have to cover. You are absolutely right that a forum of adults should have open and civilized discussions. I also don't think we need an army of mods snipping and editing for every word that one person or another may find offensive today at any given time. One way is a personal nightmare for Zos and constant work, second guessing, and judgement calls. Just worrying about the legal stuff slims it down, narrows what has to be acted upon, and maybe frees up resources for Zos. But again this is just a personal opinion.

Lumenn · May 2022

Ilsabet wrote: »

(plz don't report me I made it just for you)

Gave you an awesome.👍

Lumenn · May 2022

VaranisArano wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

I'm putting this in the FIRST section as some have issues with having an OPINION that doesn't match their own. I FULLY understand I'm old. My way of thinking may be outdated to a time when life was rougher and being offended took more than it does now to be a problem. Believe me I understand even minor offenses sends some into fits, some people have mental health issues, and overall its just not nice. I STILL think moderation should be limited to threats, hate speech, any of the "isms"(race, gender, etc) and topics should be in game only.

I am, disturbingly, older than I look, and even back in the day, we knew when someone was being a dumpsterfire. It was socially permissible to pick and choose our language so that we could denigrate someone by associating them with a group that fell outside of social norms, but that didn't mean it was, "okay."

And, as someone who was, as a kid, dealing with some pretty serious trauma, and was frequently harassed by my peers and adults (remember when that was socially acceptable?) I have zero sympathy for the people who, today, are like, "but, I just want to call people <insert hideously offensive pejorative here>, like I used to."

Socially acceptable....well I suppose that depends on what social group you were around. Some say "home correction" was socially acceptable in the generations before mine, but I can assure you there were people who frowned and acted against wife/child beaters as well, and it wasn't "socially acceptable " overall. As for childhood bullies, well, that's an entirely different discussion and this isn't the place for discussing what's wrong with much of our youth.

In regards to your personal childhood trauma and subsequent possible personal emotional and mental health issues you still have today(and I'm not being insensitive here) we all, every single adult has them and many children. I for one won't say anyone's issues are worse, or better than another's. I can't judge someone's pain, and they can't judge mine.

I've never advocated for a "free for all" . I advocate for a reduction of the over all moderation to just hate speech, threats, etc . It makes sense from a business (payroll) sense if you'd read my earlier comments. I don't need to run to a mod because someone (hypothetical example here mods, don't nail me please) calls me a stupid doo Doo head. Mods shouldn't have to waste their time on adults dealing with that. If someone were to make a threat, use a racial, gender slur etc then by all means get them. And keep it GAME related. That should take care of most major issues. Trolls will troll no matter what rules you put up. And despite how many mods are hovering over a forum not everyone's sensitivities can be protected. Mod the legal stuff , keep it game related,and the rest is up to the adults. Zos can age restrict the forums same as the game. Zos is covered, the over moderation is lessened, and zos might even redirect some mods to in game G.M.s

Someone calling me a stupid doo doo head is a good example of the times when I would bust out the old "If you are going to insult me, this conversation is effectively over. If you want to continue discussing the topic at hand with me, please do it without the insults."

That is in fact exactly my point. I just don't engage with said troll. I don't have to have someone spank them for me because they obviously don't wish to actually engage in discussion. And unlike a business meeting where I may have to associate with an unpleasant peer or supervisor for the job, I don't in a video game forum. /Shrug but I've said in every post it's just my opinion, and I realize for some people words, rudeness, or even perceived rudeness, is a big deal.

spartaxoxo · May 2022

Hostility is something that has a chilling effect on speech. One of the reasons some people post here that they would not capture on some place like Reddit, is that it helps them capture a wider audience. It makes no sense to even have this forum if it's not going to have different standards. Don't pay a staff at all and just stick to Reddit. If what you want is to listen to your customer's speech, it makes no sense to have rules that discourage it.

SilverBride · May 2022

Lumenn wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

I don't need to run to a mod because someone (hypothetical example here mods, don't nail me please) calls me a stupid doo Doo head. Mods shouldn't have to waste their time on adults dealing with that.

It doesn't matter if the name is what some consider mild or if it's hate speech, it still is not appropriate to call someone names in a forum discussion. Besides being inappropriate it lends absolutely nothing constructive to the conversation.

If one can't be civilized, they aren't taking the topic seriously and are not worth my time. Now hate speech I mentioned due to legal liabilities zos may have to cover. You are absolutely right that a forum of adults should have open and civilized discussions. I also don't think we need an army of mods snipping and editing for every word that one person or another may find offensive today at any given time. One way is a personal nightmare for Zos and constant work, second guessing, and judgement calls. Just worrying about the legal stuff slims it down, narrows what has to be acted upon, and maybe frees up resources for Zos. But again this is just a personal opinion.

The person tossing insults is ultimately the one who is wasting the mod's time by posting inappropriate content in the first place. This is something I believe a mod would address even if no one reported it. Otherwise it may continue and could escalate into something worse.

Lumenn · May 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Hostility is something that has a chilling effect on speech. One of the reasons some people post here that they would not capture on some place like Reddit, is that it helps them capture a wider audience. It makes no sense to even have this forum if it's not going to have different standards. Don't pay a staff at all and just stick to Reddit. If what you want is to listen to your customer's speech, it makes no sense to have rules that discourage it.

I agree completely. One of the reasons this post was created was because people perceived hostility from over moderation and don't feel safe posting due to inconsistent moding and bans from the forum mods.

Lumenn · May 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

I don't need to run to a mod because someone (hypothetical example here mods, don't nail me please) calls me a stupid doo Doo head. Mods shouldn't have to waste their time on adults dealing with that.

It doesn't matter if the name is what some consider mild or if it's hate speech, it still is not appropriate to call someone names in a forum discussion. Besides being inappropriate it lends absolutely nothing constructive to the conversation.

If one can't be civilized, they aren't taking the topic seriously and are not worth my time. Now hate speech I mentioned due to legal liabilities zos may have to cover. You are absolutely right that a forum of adults should have open and civilized discussions. I also don't think we need an army of mods snipping and editing for every word that one person or another may find offensive today at any given time. One way is a personal nightmare for Zos and constant work, second guessing, and judgement calls. Just worrying about the legal stuff slims it down, narrows what has to be acted upon, and maybe frees up resources for Zos. But again this is just a personal opinion.

The person tossing insults is ultimately the one who is wasting the mod's time by posting inappropriate content in the first place. This is something I believe a mod would address even if no one reported it. Otherwise it may continue and could escalate into something worse.

I've agreed with you on MANY of your comments on other posts but on how a video game forum should be policed we'll simply have to agree to disagree. Still respect ya though! 😉

spartaxoxo · May 2022

Lumenn wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Hostility is something that has a chilling effect on speech. One of the reasons some people post here that they would not capture on some place like Reddit, is that it helps them capture a wider audience. It makes no sense to even have this forum if it's not going to have different standards. Don't pay a staff at all and just stick to Reddit. If what you want is to listen to your customer's speech, it makes no sense to have rules that discourage it.

I agree completely. One of the reasons this post was created was because people perceived hostility from over moderation and don't feel safe posting due to inconsistent moding and bans from the forum mods.

Yes. But your proposal takes it too far into the other direction. You say yourself, "maybe I'll just leave the topic if it's not being discussed seriously." Well, that's precisely the problem. They don't want the topic filled with someone calling people doo Doo heads. They want to know your opinion on pvp or whatever the topic is.

Name calling and harassment chills speech.

SilverBride · May 2022

Lumenn wrote: »

I've agreed with you on MANY of your comments on other posts but on how a video game forum should be policed we'll simply have to agree to disagree. Still respect ya though! 😉

I concur, and I appreciate that we were able to respectfully discuss this topic.

Lumenn · May 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Hostility is something that has a chilling effect on speech. One of the reasons some people post here that they would not capture on some place like Reddit, is that it helps them capture a wider audience. It makes no sense to even have this forum if it's not going to have different standards. Don't pay a staff at all and just stick to Reddit. If what you want is to listen to your customer's speech, it makes no sense to have rules that discourage it.

I agree completely. One of the reasons this post was created was because people perceived hostility from over moderation and don't feel safe posting due to inconsistent moding and bans from the forum mods.

Yes. But your proposal takes it too far into the other direction. You say yourself, "maybe I'll just leave the topic if it's not being discussed seriously." Well, that's precisely the problem. They don't want the topic filled with someone calling people doo Doo heads. They want to know your opinion on pvp or whatever the topic is.

Name calling and harassment chills speech.

Don't leave the topic, just don't feed the troll. Continue the discussion with others who are all openly discussing the topic and being civilized. Why respond to the troll? And if Zos (or any company) wants true opinions hyper moderation on anything negative opinions wouldn't be so heavily censored (which is what started this thread) let your customers express constructive criticism in a civilized manor if you're interested in their opinion.

spartaxoxo · May 2022

Lumenn wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Hostility is something that has a chilling effect on speech. One of the reasons some people post here that they would not capture on some place like Reddit, is that it helps them capture a wider audience. It makes no sense to even have this forum if it's not going to have different standards. Don't pay a staff at all and just stick to Reddit. If what you want is to listen to your customer's speech, it makes no sense to have rules that discourage it.

I agree completely. One of the reasons this post was created was because people perceived hostility from over moderation and don't feel safe posting due to inconsistent moding and bans from the forum mods.

Yes. But your proposal takes it too far into the other direction. You say yourself, "maybe I'll just leave the topic if it's not being discussed seriously." Well, that's precisely the problem. They don't want the topic filled with someone calling people doo Doo heads. They want to know your opinion on pvp or whatever the topic is.

Name calling and harassment chills speech.

Don't leave the topic, just don't feed the troll. Continue the discussion with others who are all openly discussing the topic and being civilized. Why respond to the troll? And if Zos (or any company) wants true opinions hyper moderation on anything negative opinions wouldn't be so heavily censored (which is what started this thread) let your customers express constructive criticism in a civilized manor if you're interested in their opinion.

A civilized manner doesn't include name calling. You'd leave the thread because you're being harassed and you don't want to deal with it. This is a very well known human phenomenon. Neither hyper moderation or openly hostile debate rules allows for civilized debate from a wide variety of people.

Lumenn · May 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Hostility is something that has a chilling effect on speech. One of the reasons some people post here that they would not capture on some place like Reddit, is that it helps them capture a wider audience. It makes no sense to even have this forum if it's not going to have different standards. Don't pay a staff at all and just stick to Reddit. If what you want is to listen to your customer's speech, it makes no sense to have rules that discourage it.

I agree completely. One of the reasons this post was created was because people perceived hostility from over moderation and don't feel safe posting due to inconsistent moding and bans from the forum mods.

Yes. But your proposal takes it too far into the other direction. You say yourself, "maybe I'll just leave the topic if it's not being discussed seriously." Well, that's precisely the problem. They don't want the topic filled with someone calling people doo Doo heads. They want to know your opinion on pvp or whatever the topic is.

Name calling and harassment chills speech.

Don't leave the topic, just don't feed the troll. Continue the discussion with others who are all openly discussing the topic and being civilized. Why respond to the troll? And if Zos (or any company) wants true opinions hyper moderation on anything negative opinions wouldn't be so heavily censored (which is what started this thread) let your customers express constructive criticism in a civilized manor if you're interested in their opinion.

A civilized manner doesn't include name calling. You'd leave the thread because you're being harassed and you don't want to deal with it. This is a very well known human phenomenon. Neither hyper moderation or openly hostile debate rules allows for civilized debate from a wide variety of people.

You're right it is "a" human response. There are many others. Some would actually feed the troll. Some would ignore them. There are others. You might possibly leave the thread. I would simply ignore the name caller. If the harassment continues it changes from game related to a personal vendetta (one name is a rude person, 5-10 posts tagging someone and calling them a name isn't game related, which was one of my listed terms (keep it game related)in every. single. post. I made on this, and gets mod attention.

I have alluded to the fact that some people react more severely for a variety of reasons to things that I personally wouldn't in a video game forum many times. From a business point of view though I would pay mods to cover the legal issues on an adult forum and to keep it game related, not the nightmare of keeping an ever changing and growing (and subjective) list of what's offensive out. As I also said before I'm not advocating for a "wide open" forum. Just less moderation over adults with simple rules(again hate speech, gender/racial slurs etc) and keep it game related that would cut down on judgement calls from mods.

Elsonso · May 2022

Lumenn wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Name calling and harassment chills speech.

Don't leave the topic, just don't feed the troll. Continue the discussion with others who are all openly discussing the topic and being civilized. Why respond to the troll?

The optimist in me thinks that could work. The realist knows that what happens is that not everyone does it. People snip at each other, name calling and back and forth happen, and things escalate. The thread gets locked, or moderators trim anything remotely tangential to the trolling, or both. Everyone leaves unhappy.

I usually step back from a thread when I see the potential for the moderators to swoop in and clean house. I have tried to go on and discuss the topic while ignoring the trolling, and more often, the back and forth, but it is usually just wasted effort. Besides, there is only so much to be said before repetition takes over.

spartaxoxo · May 2022

Lumenn wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Hostility is something that has a chilling effect on speech. One of the reasons some people post here that they would not capture on some place like Reddit, is that it helps them capture a wider audience. It makes no sense to even have this forum if it's not going to have different standards. Don't pay a staff at all and just stick to Reddit. If what you want is to listen to your customer's speech, it makes no sense to have rules that discourage it.

I agree completely. One of the reasons this post was created was because people perceived hostility from over moderation and don't feel safe posting due to inconsistent moding and bans from the forum mods.

Yes. But your proposal takes it too far into the other direction. You say yourself, "maybe I'll just leave the topic if it's not being discussed seriously." Well, that's precisely the problem. They don't want the topic filled with someone calling people doo Doo heads. They want to know your opinion on pvp or whatever the topic is.

Name calling and harassment chills speech.

Don't leave the topic, just don't feed the troll. Continue the discussion with others who are all openly discussing the topic and being civilized. Why respond to the troll? And if Zos (or any company) wants true opinions hyper moderation on anything negative opinions wouldn't be so heavily censored (which is what started this thread) let your customers express constructive criticism in a civilized manor if you're interested in their opinion.

A civilized manner doesn't include name calling. You'd leave the thread because you're being harassed and you don't want to deal with it. This is a very well known human phenomenon. Neither hyper moderation or openly hostile debate rules allows for civilized debate from a wide variety of people.

You're right it is "a" human response. There are many others. Some would actually feed the troll. Some would ignore them. There are others. You might possibly leave the thread. I would simply ignore the name caller. If the harassment continues it changes from game related to a personal vendetta (one name is a rude person, 5-10 posts tagging someone and calling them a name isn't game related, which was one of my listed terms (keep it game related)in every. single. post. I made on this, and gets mod attention.

Sure, you said make it game-related. But you also very clearly excluded name-calling. I also didn't think you agreed with the idea that someone reporting multiple posts in the same thread because of persistent name-calling was not abuse of the system. There are other posters in this thread that feels if someone sent 10 legitimate reports, it's still a problem with the person sending the reports. I don't agree. So, apologies if I mixed those two conversations together. I actually don't think you appreciate just how drastically wide open it gets if the only speech policed is hate speech and literally illegal. It gets extremely wide open, especially in the US. I'm not sure if you're from this country, but there isn't a whole lot that isn't allowed under those terms.

edit:
It's also not just "a" human response, it is the well-documented to be the predominant human response. People just don't engage, and then the place in question becomes an echo chamber.

eta2:
In fact this echo chambering is a significant factor increasing polarization of views in society, but I'm not going to get into that as it's not appropriate for here. Regardless, what you end up having is people tend to instead of putting up with a lot hostility, they will go to places where they can express their views without it being a battle. This tends to lead them to places where most people more or less agree with them, thus making them less likely to see challenging views over which to argue in the first place.

Lumenn · May 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Hostility is something that has a chilling effect on speech. One of the reasons some people post here that they would not capture on some place like Reddit, is that it helps them capture a wider audience. It makes no sense to even have this forum if it's not going to have different standards. Don't pay a staff at all and just stick to Reddit. If what you want is to listen to your customer's speech, it makes no sense to have rules that discourage it.

I agree completely. One of the reasons this post was created was because people perceived hostility from over moderation and don't feel safe posting due to inconsistent moding and bans from the forum mods.

Yes. But your proposal takes it too far into the other direction. You say yourself, "maybe I'll just leave the topic if it's not being discussed seriously." Well, that's precisely the problem. They don't want the topic filled with someone calling people doo Doo heads. They want to know your opinion on pvp or whatever the topic is.

Name calling and harassment chills speech.

Don't leave the topic, just don't feed the troll. Continue the discussion with others who are all openly discussing the topic and being civilized. Why respond to the troll? And if Zos (or any company) wants true opinions hyper moderation on anything negative opinions wouldn't be so heavily censored (which is what started this thread) let your customers express constructive criticism in a civilized manor if you're interested in their opinion.

A civilized manner doesn't include name calling. You'd leave the thread because you're being harassed and you don't want to deal with it. This is a very well known human phenomenon. Neither hyper moderation or openly hostile debate rules allows for civilized debate from a wide variety of people.

You're right it is "a" human response. There are many others. Some would actually feed the troll. Some would ignore them. There are others. You might possibly leave the thread. I would simply ignore the name caller. If the harassment continues it changes from game related to a personal vendetta (one name is a rude person, 5-10 posts tagging someone and calling them a name isn't game related, which was one of my listed terms (keep it game related)in every. single. post. I made on this, and gets mod attention.

Sure, you said make it game-related. But you also very clearly excluded name-calling. I also didn't think you agreed with the idea that someone reporting multiple posts in the same thread because of persistent name-calling was not abuse of the system. There are other posters in this thread that feels if someone sent 10 legitimate reports, it's still a problem with the person sending the reports. I don't agree. So, apologies if I mixed those two conversations together. I actually don't think you appreciate just how drastically wide open it gets if the only speech policed is hate speech and literally illegal. It gets extremely wide open, especially in the US. I'm not sure if you're from this country, but there isn't a whole lot that isn't allowed under those terms.

edit:
It's also not just "a" human response, it is the well-documented to be the predominant human response. People just don't engage, and then the place in question becomes an echo chamber.

I am from the U.S. and a very large military family, everyone has joined, fought, and some died with the idea(no matter what top brass real reasons were, but that's a huge topic not fit for ESO forums) that they might not AGREE with what one says, but they have the right to say it. Having come from a family of Marines (my father being a D.I. ) I ALSO realize and have admitted that I probably would not be upset over what others do.

Fight or flight is subjective on who's study you use and what conditions they're in. Having a fondness for psychology and taken extra college courses above my degree just out of a life long interest, there are more fight than you'd think(at least there used to be. I'll admit to being years out of the loop and that my whole world growing up was surrounded by fighters may have skewed my views) but I made my living off of manipulation and planning. It's ugly but it's true.

As to multiple reports I'd like to stop wasting mods time on every little thing. Although I personally don't think a majority of the over moderation is from the community, and that IS my personal opinion, I believe they still get a lot. As I said with simpler rules, mods wouldn't have to jump like an army of spiders making judgement calls. One name call is just a rude individual who can't control their attitude to have a civilized discussion or a troll trying to bait an adult into an argument. Be an adult and don't respond. Repeated name calling is just ridiculous and should be modded as it's spamming a thread with non game related content. If someone is targeting a user by reporting everything I'd hope a less taxed mod with fewer rules could make a fair judgement call. My opinion on it though is that it doesn't have to be one person doing it. My management teams were always tight. Guilds can be the same. A person who never posts in a thread can easily have a guild attack/spam report someone. It still warrants a mods attention but less rules might help them sort things out for/against. I'm not sure if I helped clear anything up or muddied the waters again. Basically calling someone a jerk just means they aren't well and should be ignored. Calling someone a jerk repeatedly borders on harassment (possible legal issue along with slurs and possible threat) and isn't game related, both of which I think should be modded. I'm for less moderation, not no moderation. It's the degree that we all disagree on.

Lumenn · May 2022

Elsonso wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Name calling and harassment chills speech.

Don't leave the topic, just don't feed the troll. Continue the discussion with others who are all openly discussing the topic and being civilized. Why respond to the troll?

The optimist in me thinks that could work. The realist knows that what happens is that not everyone does it. People snip at each other, name calling and back and forth happen, and things escalate. The thread gets locked, or moderators trim anything remotely tangential to the trolling, or both. Everyone leaves unhappy.

I usually step back from a thread when I see the potential for the moderators to swoop in and clean house. I have tried to go on and discuss the topic while ignoring the trolling, and more often, the back and forth, but it is usually just wasted effort. Besides, there is only so much to be said before repetition takes over.

And you're right. That's why I also said keep it game related. One person having a bad day, likes to bait, whatever the reason calling someone a name, just ignore them and let the adults keep talking. Should they continue and spam the thread with personal attacks instead of game related topic give em a time out. If the other party decides to feed the troll and they both spam a thread with non game related issues they both get a time out and the adults can continue to discuss. This thread is actually proof of it. Many here disagree and have responded in a civilized manor. Some have been outright rude in my opinion but others didn't take the bait. And (as far as I know) this is the least modded "touchy" thread I've seen in quite some time. But again, it's just my thoughts.

VaranisArano · May 2022

Ilsabet wrote: »

(plz don't report me I made it just for you)

Haha, I love it!

VaranisArano · May 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

I don't need to run to a mod because someone (hypothetical example here mods, don't nail me please) calls me a stupid doo Doo head. Mods shouldn't have to waste their time on adults dealing with that.

It doesn't matter if the name is what some consider mild or if it's hate speech, it still is not appropriate to call someone names in a forum discussion. Besides being inappropriate it lends absolutely nothing constructive to the conversation.

If one can't be civilized, they aren't taking the topic seriously and are not worth my time. Now hate speech I mentioned due to legal liabilities zos may have to cover. You are absolutely right that a forum of adults should have open and civilized discussions. I also don't think we need an army of mods snipping and editing for every word that one person or another may find offensive today at any given time. One way is a personal nightmare for Zos and constant work, second guessing, and judgement calls. Just worrying about the legal stuff slims it down, narrows what has to be acted upon, and maybe frees up resources for Zos. But again this is just a personal opinion.

The person tossing insults is ultimately the one who is wasting the mod's time by posting inappropriate content in the first place. This is something I believe a mod would address even if no one reported it. Otherwise it may continue and could escalate into something worse.

Indeed, even though I don't report it, I do often find that a mod has snipped the insult later.