Am I missing something in the 8.0.4 patch notes? (No class changes?)

Eira_Rosynhwyr · May 2022

Am I reading them right? There are no class changes? Not to Warden which has recieved zero attention since it was utterly *** a month ago, nor to DK which though OP in U33, got a massive overcorrection in 8.0.3? I'm dyslexic, so it's not uncommon for my eyes to slip past stuff.

Arthtur · May 2022

Created to suffer. Thats all we need to know.

GetAgrippa · May 2022

Realistically there was never a chance that this pts patch was going to have any changes. Get used to this feeling.

Mr_Stach · May 2022

Nope, nothing.

I feel like I wasted the last month giving feedback.

Eira_Rosynhwyr · May 2022

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I feel like I wasted the last month giving feedback.

You and me both. I don't know why I still care.

TPishek · May 2022

Yeah I've uninstalled the PTS. ZOS either ignores any feedback we give or truly doesn't care. Either way, it's a waste of time.

EF321 · May 2022

Eira_Rosynhwyr · May 2022

TPishek wrote: »

Yeah I've uninstalled the PTS. ZOS either ignores any feedback we give or truly doesn't care. Either way, it's a waste of time.

They can't ignore what they don't read. Either way, it's clear feedback is an exercise in futility.

Dracane · May 2022

I am more surprised that the expansion comes in 3 weeks and there will be not further PTS iterations until then. I assume we should shut up now and ponder the things to come?

Eira_Rosynhwyr · May 2022

Dracane wrote: »

I am more surprised that the expansion comes in 3 weeks and there will be not further PTS iterations until then. I assume we should shut up now and ponder the things to come?

Are you sure there is no chance things will change before this cluster *** goes live?

MashmalloMan · May 2022

While I think they failed Warden's greatly, you can't say they don't listen to feedback when they pretty much nailed every other major concern of the community relevant to the PTS. I was actually very surprised how quick they were with the changes, but I suppose my standards may be a bit low..

That is with the understanding that the changes made following week 1, were based on feedback for week 1 and the weeks after. Oakensoul, Tales of Tribute, the class changes (except Warden), DK and Templar domination (although I agree the combustion nerf was heavy handed).

There is still the issue of PVP off healing not addressed and a ton of morphs that go largely unused for everyone, despite this being the patch focused on updating unused morphs for the classes. However, I think their data was based on the changes made from the Hybrid patch and how that effected morph pick rate, vs looking at how much a morph is actually used. Aka things like Mass Hystaria morphs. Basically, dead skills, didn't get adjusted at all, popular skills that saw morph diversity decreased were adjusted.

I think the results speak for themselves. Unfortunate, but the reality of the situation. Hopefully they revisit next patch.

I'm just saying, I wouldn't say they don't listen to anything, they clearly do.. they don't always agree and frankly, I'm optimistic that in the case of something like Warden, the changes required are too large that making small adjustments between the weeks wouldn't make sense if they completely overhaul them for the next update.

Mr_Stach · May 2022

MashmalloMan wrote: »

While I think they failed Warden's greatly, you can't say they don't listen to feedback when they pretty much nailed every other major concern of the community relevant to the PTS. I was actually very surprised how quick they were with the changes, but I suppose my standards may be a bit low..

That is with the understanding that the changes made following week 1, were based on feedback for week 1 and the weeks after. Oakensoul, Tales of Tribute, the class changes (except Warden), DK and Templar domination (although I agree the combustion nerf was heavy handed).

There is still the issue of PVP off healing not addressed and a ton of morphs that go largely unused for everyone, despite this being the patch focused on updating unused morphs for the classes. However, I think their data was based on the changes made from the Hybrid patch and how that effected morph pick rate, vs looking at how much a morph is actually used. Aka things like Mass Hystaria morphs. Basically, dead skills, didn't get adjusted at all, popular skills that saw morph diversity decreased were adjusted.

I think the results speak for themselves. Unfortunate, but the reality of the situation. Hopefully they revisit next patch.

I'm just saying, I wouldn't say they don't listen to anything, they clearly do.. they don't always agree and frankly, I'm optimistic that in the case of something like Warden, the changes required are too large that making small adjustments between the weeks wouldn't make sense if they completely overhaul them for the next update.

Gonna be dramatic and say they listened to every feedback but Warden. I didn't think they were gonna neuter DK, but somehow that squeaked in as well. Luckily Stam Warden will be in a good spot this Update.

jaws343 · May 2022

MashmalloMan wrote: »

While I think they failed Warden's greatly, you can't say they don't listen to feedback when they pretty much nailed every other major concern of the community relevant to the PTS. I was actually very surprised how quick they were with the changes, but I suppose my standards may be a bit low..

That is with the understanding that the changes made following week 1, were based on feedback for week 1 and the weeks after. Oakensoul, Tales of Tribute, the class changes (except Warden), DK and Templar domination (although I agree the combustion nerf was heavy handed).

There is still the issue of PVP off healing not addressed and a ton of morphs that go largely unused for everyone, despite this being the patch focused on updating unused morphs for the classes. However, I think their data was based on the changes made from the Hybrid patch and how that effected morph pick rate, vs looking at how much a morph is actually used. Aka things like Mass Hystaria morphs. Basically, dead skills, didn't get adjusted at all, popular skills that saw morph diversity decreased were adjusted.

I think the results speak for themselves. Unfortunate, but the reality of the situation. Hopefully they revisit next patch.

I'm just saying, I wouldn't say they don't listen to anything, they clearly do.. they don't always agree and frankly, I'm optimistic that in the case of something like Warden, the changes required are too large that making small adjustments between the weeks wouldn't make sense if they completely overhaul them for the next update.

I think there is a general lack of understanding when it comes to feedback. Just because you give feedback doesn't mean that feedback is good, or even that the feedback fits into the general intention of a change. Just because they don't make changes based on feedback doesn't mean they are ignoring feedback. But people expect every word of feedback they give for an adjustment to be implemented, which would be pretty crazy considering even in the same thread people have conflicting feedback.

Mr_Stach · May 2022

jaws343 wrote: »

I think there is a general lack of understanding when it comes to feedback. Just because you give feedback doesn't mean that feedback is good, or even that the feedback fits into the general intention of a change. Just because they don't make changes based on feedback doesn't mean they are ignoring feedback. But people expect every word of feedback they give for an adjustment to be implemented, which would be pretty crazy considering even in the same thread people have conflicting feedback.

You know that's fair. And there was definitely some feedback that we (Warden Posts) gave that wasn't actionable feedback to a degree.
But Arctic Blast? That is 1000% Actionable. It's a bad change. And they ignored it. And even if they didn't ignore it, they could have at least acknowledged it a little.

Eira_Rosynhwyr · May 2022

jaws343 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

While I think they failed Warden's greatly, you can't say they don't listen to feedback when they pretty much nailed every other major concern of the community relevant to the PTS. I was actually very surprised how quick they were with the changes, but I suppose my standards may be a bit low..

That is with the understanding that the changes made following week 1, were based on feedback for week 1 and the weeks after. Oakensoul, Tales of Tribute, the class changes (except Warden), DK and Templar domination (although I agree the combustion nerf was heavy handed).

There is still the issue of PVP off healing not addressed and a ton of morphs that go largely unused for everyone, despite this being the patch focused on updating unused morphs for the classes. However, I think their data was based on the changes made from the Hybrid patch and how that effected morph pick rate, vs looking at how much a morph is actually used. Aka things like Mass Hystaria morphs. Basically, dead skills, didn't get adjusted at all, popular skills that saw morph diversity decreased were adjusted.

I think the results speak for themselves. Unfortunate, but the reality of the situation. Hopefully they revisit next patch.

I'm just saying, I wouldn't say they don't listen to anything, they clearly do.. they don't always agree and frankly, I'm optimistic that in the case of something like Warden, the changes required are too large that making small adjustments between the weeks wouldn't make sense if they completely overhaul them for the next update.

I think there is a general lack of understanding when it comes to feedback. Just because you give feedback doesn't mean that feedback is good, or even that the feedback fits into the general intention of a change. Just because they don't make changes based on feedback doesn't mean they are ignoring feedback. But people expect every word of feedback they give for an adjustment to be implemented, which would be pretty crazy considering even in the same thread people have conflicting feedback.

I don't think players are expecting their suggestions to always be implemented. It's more that the patch introduced problems. I agree that the popular suggestion for how to change Arctic Wind is something ZOS would go "yeah, no, not what we're looking for". I even made a thread on the topic about how the player base is asking for something counter to what the devs are wanting. But simply reverting the changes to Ice Slab and Arctic Wind would have been enough to "fix" the damage they caused.

I mean, half the forum feedback has been on how bad the Warden changes are. How could they possible say "this is fine"? it is not fine. And that is where my outrage is coming from.

MashmalloMan · May 2022

jaws343 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

While I think they failed Warden's greatly, you can't say they don't listen to feedback when they pretty much nailed every other major concern of the community relevant to the PTS. I was actually very surprised how quick they were with the changes, but I suppose my standards may be a bit low..

That is with the understanding that the changes made following week 1, were based on feedback for week 1 and the weeks after. Oakensoul, Tales of Tribute, the class changes (except Warden), DK and Templar domination (although I agree the combustion nerf was heavy handed).

There is still the issue of PVP off healing not addressed and a ton of morphs that go largely unused for everyone, despite this being the patch focused on updating unused morphs for the classes. However, I think their data was based on the changes made from the Hybrid patch and how that effected morph pick rate, vs looking at how much a morph is actually used. Aka things like Mass Hystaria morphs. Basically, dead skills, didn't get adjusted at all, popular skills that saw morph diversity decreased were adjusted.

I think the results speak for themselves. Unfortunate, but the reality of the situation. Hopefully they revisit next patch.

I'm just saying, I wouldn't say they don't listen to anything, they clearly do.. they don't always agree and frankly, I'm optimistic that in the case of something like Warden, the changes required are too large that making small adjustments between the weeks wouldn't make sense if they completely overhaul them for the next update.

I think there is a general lack of understanding when it comes to feedback. Just because you give feedback doesn't mean that feedback is good, or even that the feedback fits into the general intention of a change. Just because they don't make changes based on feedback doesn't mean they are ignoring feedback. But people expect every word of feedback they give for an adjustment to be implemented, which would be pretty crazy considering even in the same thread people have conflicting feedback.

Exactly, thank you. They don't always agree. Doesn't mean they didn't listen.

I've given feedback 1 patch, to see it completely addressed 6-9 months later. It sucks, but it does happen.

In some cases, the changes are just delayed. Game developement takes time, it's sad Warden didn't hit the mark this patch, but I'm hoping it's delayed because frankly, nothing they could do in 1 week of number changes could fix that mess of a class. They are the lowest tier pvp class for sure.

Newer vids on tier lists confirm this from people like Deltia. Not that it's gospel, but it's a clear indication that they're not in a great place.

MashmalloMan · May 2022

Eira_Rosynhwyr wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

While I think they failed Warden's greatly, you can't say they don't listen to feedback when they pretty much nailed every other major concern of the community relevant to the PTS. I was actually very surprised how quick they were with the changes, but I suppose my standards may be a bit low..

That is with the understanding that the changes made following week 1, were based on feedback for week 1 and the weeks after. Oakensoul, Tales of Tribute, the class changes (except Warden), DK and Templar domination (although I agree the combustion nerf was heavy handed).

There is still the issue of PVP off healing not addressed and a ton of morphs that go largely unused for everyone, despite this being the patch focused on updating unused morphs for the classes. However, I think their data was based on the changes made from the Hybrid patch and how that effected morph pick rate, vs looking at how much a morph is actually used. Aka things like Mass Hystaria morphs. Basically, dead skills, didn't get adjusted at all, popular skills that saw morph diversity decreased were adjusted.

I think the results speak for themselves. Unfortunate, but the reality of the situation. Hopefully they revisit next patch.

I'm just saying, I wouldn't say they don't listen to anything, they clearly do.. they don't always agree and frankly, I'm optimistic that in the case of something like Warden, the changes required are too large that making small adjustments between the weeks wouldn't make sense if they completely overhaul them for the next update.

I think there is a general lack of understanding when it comes to feedback. Just because you give feedback doesn't mean that feedback is good, or even that the feedback fits into the general intention of a change. Just because they don't make changes based on feedback doesn't mean they are ignoring feedback. But people expect every word of feedback they give for an adjustment to be implemented, which would be pretty crazy considering even in the same thread people have conflicting feedback.

But simply reverting the changes to Ice Slab and Arctic Wind would have been enough to "fix" the damage they caused.

I mean, half the forum feedback has been on how bad the Warden changes are. How could they possible say "this is fine"? it is not fine. And that is where my outrage is coming from.

Very true. If they plan to overhaul them, why keep the bad changes they made?

jaws343 · May 2022

Mr_Stach wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

I think there is a general lack of understanding when it comes to feedback. Just because you give feedback doesn't mean that feedback is good, or even that the feedback fits into the general intention of a change. Just because they don't make changes based on feedback doesn't mean they are ignoring feedback. But people expect every word of feedback they give for an adjustment to be implemented, which would be pretty crazy considering even in the same thread people have conflicting feedback.

You know that's fair. And there was definitely some feedback that we (Warden Posts) gave that wasn't actionable feedback to a degree.
But Arctic Blast? That is 1000% Actionable. It's a bad change. And they ignored it. And even if they didn't ignore it, they could have at least acknowledged it a little.

I see it as their silence is the acknowledgement that they are not budging on the change. The alternative is just another multi page thread of complaint when they vocally have to say they are sticking to every change they made.

It's like the oakensoul stuff from last pts patch. There were still complaints and feedback. They didn't waste time addressing them in this patch, which means, what we have is likely final. Silence on a subject is just as much acknowledgement as saying something. They think it is fine where it is, whether anyone agrees or not.

Mr_Stach · May 2022

Well I hope that they fix some stuff down the line, but here's where we're at right now.

Arctic Blast:

There's no reason to run it, there's better healing. There's better AoEs. There's better Stuns.

Dracane · May 2022

Eira_Rosynhwyr wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I am more surprised that the expansion comes in 3 weeks and there will be not further PTS iterations until then. I assume we should shut up now and ponder the things to come?

Are you sure there is no chance things will change before this cluster *** goes live?

Good luck spotting it if it does. You'll have to disect the Live Patchnotes for any inconsistencies. From experience: It happens very rarely.

Eira_Rosynhwyr · May 2022

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Eira_Rosynhwyr wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

While I think they failed Warden's greatly, you can't say they don't listen to feedback when they pretty much nailed every other major concern of the community relevant to the PTS. I was actually very surprised how quick they were with the changes, but I suppose my standards may be a bit low..

That is with the understanding that the changes made following week 1, were based on feedback for week 1 and the weeks after. Oakensoul, Tales of Tribute, the class changes (except Warden), DK and Templar domination (although I agree the combustion nerf was heavy handed).

There is still the issue of PVP off healing not addressed and a ton of morphs that go largely unused for everyone, despite this being the patch focused on updating unused morphs for the classes. However, I think their data was based on the changes made from the Hybrid patch and how that effected morph pick rate, vs looking at how much a morph is actually used. Aka things like Mass Hystaria morphs. Basically, dead skills, didn't get adjusted at all, popular skills that saw morph diversity decreased were adjusted.

I think the results speak for themselves. Unfortunate, but the reality of the situation. Hopefully they revisit next patch.

I'm just saying, I wouldn't say they don't listen to anything, they clearly do.. they don't always agree and frankly, I'm optimistic that in the case of something like Warden, the changes required are too large that making small adjustments between the weeks wouldn't make sense if they completely overhaul them for the next update.

I think there is a general lack of understanding when it comes to feedback. Just because you give feedback doesn't mean that feedback is good, or even that the feedback fits into the general intention of a change. Just because they don't make changes based on feedback doesn't mean they are ignoring feedback. But people expect every word of feedback they give for an adjustment to be implemented, which would be pretty crazy considering even in the same thread people have conflicting feedback.

But simply reverting the changes to Ice Slab and Arctic Wind would have been enough to "fix" the damage they caused.

I mean, half the forum feedback has been on how bad the Warden changes are. How could they possible say "this is fine"? it is not fine. And that is where my outrage is coming from.

Very true. If they plan to overhaul them, why keep the bad changes they made?

Keyword: If. Clearly they have no intention of ever fixing FrostDen.

ManM · May 2022

The PTS seems to be for identifying bugs and unintended consequences before a patch goes live rather than a public solicitation for balance changes or class ideas.

As for the tone-deaf nature of some of the things, just remember what PTS was like for the vampire rework. There were even polls set up to try and let the devs know how bad the rework was. In the end, the goal was to make the vampire line bad. So for those concerned about a particular skill or class or what not, perhaps the devs simply want it to be bad.

Eira_Rosynhwyr · May 2022

ManM wrote: »

The PTS seems to be for identifying bugs and unintended consequences before a patch goes live rather than a public solicitation for balance changes or class ideas.

As for the tone-deaf nature of some of the things, just remember what PTS was like for the vampire rework. There were even polls set up to try and let the devs know how bad the rework was. In the end, the goal was to make the vampire line bad. So for those concerned about a particular skill or class or what not, perhaps the devs simply want it to be bad.

Why? So they can ignore it once players get the message to stop playing something?

Mr_Stach · May 2022

This PTS Cycle was about as useful as the Class Rep System.

Waste of my time and energy

ManM · May 2022

Eira_Rosynhwyr wrote: »

ManM wrote: »

The PTS seems to be for identifying bugs and unintended consequences before a patch goes live rather than a public solicitation for balance changes or class ideas.

As for the tone-deaf nature of some of the things, just remember what PTS was like for the vampire rework. There were even polls set up to try and let the devs know how bad the rework was. In the end, the goal was to make the vampire line bad. So for those concerned about a particular skill or class or what not, perhaps the devs simply want it to be bad.

Why? So they can ignore it once players get the message to stop playing something?

Yep. If people aren't bothering with a skill, that's one less thing the devs have to worry about. Blood Mist, Consuming Darkness, Mend Wounds... There are all kinds of skills that make zero sense.

robpr · May 2022

Check if there are some hidden changes in situation like this. I doubt there are zero changes in the final patch, but it's zos we are speaking of.

Mr_Stach · May 2022

Dark_Lord_Kuro · May 2022

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Inacurate picture
Dk dont have the ressources to create that much fire anymore

Wolfpaw · May 2022

Silly card game that will be dead in a year & companions we never needed eating up resources.

silver1surfer69 · May 2022

welcome to the club.

Vonkarolinas · May 2022

jaws343 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

While I think they failed Warden's greatly, you can't say they don't listen to feedback when they pretty much nailed every other major concern of the community relevant to the PTS. I was actually very surprised how quick they were with the changes, but I suppose my standards may be a bit low..

That is with the understanding that the changes made following week 1, were based on feedback for week 1 and the weeks after. Oakensoul, Tales of Tribute, the class changes (except Warden), DK and Templar domination (although I agree the combustion nerf was heavy handed).

There is still the issue of PVP off healing not addressed and a ton of morphs that go largely unused for everyone, despite this being the patch focused on updating unused morphs for the classes. However, I think their data was based on the changes made from the Hybrid patch and how that effected morph pick rate, vs looking at how much a morph is actually used. Aka things like Mass Hystaria morphs. Basically, dead skills, didn't get adjusted at all, popular skills that saw morph diversity decreased were adjusted.

I think the results speak for themselves. Unfortunate, but the reality of the situation. Hopefully they revisit next patch.

I'm just saying, I wouldn't say they don't listen to anything, they clearly do.. they don't always agree and frankly, I'm optimistic that in the case of something like Warden, the changes required are too large that making small adjustments between the weeks wouldn't make sense if they completely overhaul them for the next update.

I think there is a general lack of understanding when it comes to feedback. Just because you give feedback doesn't mean that feedback is good, or even that the feedback fits into the general intention of a change. Just because they don't make changes based on feedback doesn't mean they are ignoring feedback. But people expect every word of feedback they give for an adjustment to be implemented, which would be pretty crazy considering even in the same thread people have conflicting feedback.

Jaws gets it.