DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Sparxlost wrote: »

This wasnt a question as to the importance of healers
it is of importance TO healers

just because eso doesnt need healers doesnt mean im going to stop playing as one
i like to sit at the back and only cast healing spell every now and then doesnt bother me...
And yes i would also like to test my healing rotation and see some numbers.

Right, but who cares what our hps is if anything over I'd say 2k hps is a waste. They honestly need to get rid of all the self healing dps skills then healers will matter again, but when like templars basically can't die to anything but a one shot with jabs and basically all classes have something almost as good we aren't needed.

Getting rid of self-healing skills is a bad idea for those of us who do solo PvE. I find the self-healing skills quite handy when I'm doing difficult content solo.

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

vsrs_au wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Sparxlost wrote: »

This wasnt a question as to the importance of healers
it is of importance TO healers

just because eso doesnt need healers doesnt mean im going to stop playing as one
i like to sit at the back and only cast healing spell every now and then doesnt bother me...
And yes i would also like to test my healing rotation and see some numbers.

Right, but who cares what our hps is if anything over I'd say 2k hps is a waste. They honestly need to get rid of all the self healing dps skills then healers will matter again, but when like templars basically can't die to anything but a one shot with jabs and basically all classes have something almost as good we aren't needed.

Getting rid of self-healing skills is a bad idea for those of us who do solo PvE. I find the self-healing skills quite handy when I'm doing difficult content solo.

They could resolve this with potion system. Make a potion that helps better with solo DPS.

We already have pale order and other sets that people consider trash because of self heals

Why doesn't actually healing matter in eso, because self healing is far to strong.

How do we fix it so solo players still enjoy content is the question. The answer is potions and stop scaling self heals to damage stats

So you want me to swap my healing passives for a potion that will probably have 45s cooldown but with effects that won't last that long, therefore leaving me vulnerable for the rest of the time ? Based on what I've seen so far in this thread, you're basically suggesting I skip some PvE content because there's a problem with healing in PvP.

peacenote wrote: »

Part of me is against this as the LAST thing we need is people asking for healing parses. As a measure of a healer this would be extremely flawed.

However, there is part of me that would appreciate some type of controlled repeatable situation where I could test my effectiveness as a healer in different scenarios. I say "situation" because I'm not sure a dummy would cut it. HPS generally is not a good number to follow as it depends on how much damage people are taking and how good my fellow healer is in a trial. But it would be interesting to be able to more easily test, say, infused vs. arcane traits, or whether dropping springs or orbs first is more effective, or how many casts of BoL is needed to fully heal someone. I'm just giving some examples of things people might want to try to become a stronger healer in their class.

Right now to do these things one has to get in a group and it has to be in the sweet spot of not steamrolling content but not so green there's no way you can have a consistent pull.

I almost would want like a simulation room where groups of dummies take controlled, sustained damage with a boss where you could practice healing and parsing.

Anyway. Dummies in general frustrate me because they are a pain to reset and you can't even do it if it's not your own house. I feel like we could use some improvements in this area generally. But for healers I think we'd need something very well done to be more useful than harmful to the role. And right now I am skeptical that we'd get something well done. I feel very burned by the heavy-handed AwA implementation... at least parts of ZOS don't seem to understand what makes healing fun (ahem pale order/vampire functionality ahem) or how many people like to play with alts and track game progress. I kind of feel like healing is fun IN SPITE of changes ZOS has made lately as opposed to because of them and each patch I worry something will drop that'll ruin it completely.

Testing is different from practice
having a good idea of how much hps healers typically need would make building so much easier because it would eliminate bar space from overhealing for utility or damage...
if you wanted to get better in the field i would suggest doing veteran dungeons as they make good practice for end-game content i would also suggest dragonstar arena....
i dont think that healers should just spam breath of life whenever some dps struggles to heal themselves burst heals are good to cast on people who arent going to be around in your general area but then again they cant be used to target specific players which means you would have to heal pretty much everyone else first with aoe then maybe get them before they are gone doing whatever with their low health...

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

SimonThesis wrote: »

In pvp hps is much more important than in Pve which is more about buff/debuff uptimes. A healing training dummy would be good to have for pvp healers. Rn in pvp groups gauge healing using addons just by seeing the real hps of the healer vs. that of other healers. A healing parse would actually be neat and a lot of fun for pvp.

I would want it fo

Sparxlost wrote: »

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

vsrs_au wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Sparxlost wrote: »

This wasnt a question as to the importance of healers
it is of importance TO healers

just because eso doesnt need healers doesnt mean im going to stop playing as one
i like to sit at the back and only cast healing spell every now and then doesnt bother me...
And yes i would also like to test my healing rotation and see some numbers.

Right, but who cares what our hps is if anything over I'd say 2k hps is a waste. They honestly need to get rid of all the self healing dps skills then healers will matter again, but when like templars basically can't die to anything but a one shot with jabs and basically all classes have something almost as good we aren't needed.

Getting rid of self-healing skills is a bad idea for those of us who do solo PvE. I find the self-healing skills quite handy when I'm doing difficult content solo.

They could resolve this with potion system. Make a potion that helps better with solo DPS.

We already have pale order and other sets that people consider trash because of self heals

Why doesn't actually healing matter in eso, because self healing is far to strong.

How do we fix it so solo players still enjoy content is the question. The answer is potions and stop scaling self heals to damage stats

Soloing difficult content is something that might be reserved for damage tanks/healers or defensive ranged dps mages imo
although it is not that way at the end of the game the only way to play is to do a little bit of everything
roles barely matter have the most independent playstyle and make sure someone is running the utility you need

not saying everyone plays this way but the fact that it is almost typical bores me
if they changed how healing scales to make healers more necessary it isnt like you couldnt still run defensive sets they just wouldnt be nearly as op to carry you to solo godhood....

The problem is it's just getting worse and worse. Tanks at least are necessary, but healers are optional

I'm a healer main and when I PUG a dungeon multiple times per day on 4 healers for transmutes there's a 50/50 chance that I'll either be unnecessary or will carry the group dragging them to through the end depending on if I get geared trial players or noobs who don't have a build and are new to dungeons - sometimes I do get that nice sweet spot in between those groups. If I get the trial players I try to add as much DPS as possible and keep my buffs/debuffs up for practice while enjoying the fast run.

Agree with @sinnereso . The reason I don't play a tank is because it is too hard for them to do their job and do enough damage to solo comfortably without changing their build all around on the fly - no thanks. The reason I DO play a healer is that she can do reasonable dps while serving as a healer. That is precisely because spell damage also boosts healing. If healing stops scaling on damage stats, my healer will throw up her hands, abandon healing and join the dps masses. Do we want the healer shortage to become as bad as the tank shortage? That would be the predictable outcome.

As things are now, my healer can very comfortably work overland and even solo a selection of group dungeons. And when she's with a group she can buff them, debuff their foes, keep them alive and adjust her 'support' vs dps even mid rotation to adjust to whether her group needs more support or more damage. That is why I love healing - and doing reasonable damage is essential to that.

Maybe something for tanks would be nice too. like they are not fully needed but would be nice for new people to practice on

sinnereso wrote: »

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Sparxlost wrote: »

This wasnt a question as to the importance of healers
it is of importance TO healers

just because eso doesnt need healers doesnt mean im going to stop playing as one
i like to sit at the back and only cast healing spell every now and then doesnt bother me...
And yes i would also like to test my healing rotation and see some numbers.

Right, but who cares what our hps is if anything over I'd say 2k hps is a waste. They honestly need to get rid of all the self healing dps skills then healers will matter again, but when like templars basically can't die to anything but a one shot with jabs and basically all classes have something almost as good we aren't needed.

What we need is healing to stop scaling on damage stats.

Thats nearly impossible to implement properly as the "Play as you want" thing zos build the game around requires you to be able to do either at any givin time.. For what your suggesting you'd have to go back to specialized classes or you would be gimping healing hardcore across the board for all including actual healers.

Just keep base healing the same, but add a stat that scales healing strength turns it
.
Could also mix the stats damage stat + new stat

Let others heal but at a cost if they also do want to DPS too

Sparxlost wrote: »

sinnereso wrote: »

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Sparxlost wrote: »

This wasnt a question as to the importance of healers
it is of importance TO healers

just because eso doesnt need healers doesnt mean im going to stop playing as one
i like to sit at the back and only cast healing spell every now and then doesnt bother me...
And yes i would also like to test my healing rotation and see some numbers.

Right, but who cares what our hps is if anything over I'd say 2k hps is a waste. They honestly need to get rid of all the self healing dps skills then healers will matter again, but when like templars basically can't die to anything but a one shot with jabs and basically all classes have something almost as good we aren't needed.

What we need is healing to stop scaling on damage stats.

Thats nearly impossible to implement properly as the "Play as you want" thing zos build the game around requires you to be able to do either at any givin time.. For what your suggesting you'd have to go back to specialized classes or you would be gimping healing hardcore across the board for all including actual healers.

No.
nerfing healing as a dps or tank does not stop you from doing it it just makes you less effective at it. as it should...
play how you want in terms of what the meta should be is being able to do any role on any class using any type of armor in some way (we have what you want and you could do it any way you want but there are only a few options at the end of the game) ex if you wanted a set that turns rain of arrows or whatever into aoe healing skill and reduced the damage then you would be one step closer to becoming a stamina healer...
i dont think play how you want should be something that makes roles ineffective with the current meta..
i think people just dont want to have to sit there for an hour tanking a dungeon as a solo player honestly...

I think I can nod to this. DPS shouldn't make healers optional

sinnereso wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Agree with @sinnereso . The reason I don't play a tank is because it is too hard for them to do their job and do enough damage to solo comfortably without changing their build all around on the fly - no thanks. The reason I DO play a healer is that she can do reasonable dps while serving as a healer. That is precisely because spell damage also boosts healing. If healing stops scaling on damage stats, my healer will throw up her hands, abandon healing and join the dps masses. Do we want the healer shortage to become as bad as the tank shortage? That would be the predictable outcome.

As things are now, my healer can very comfortably work overland and even solo a selection of group dungeons. And when she's with a group she can buff them, debuff their foes, keep them alive and adjust her 'support' vs dps even mid rotation to adjust to whether her group needs more support or more damage. That is why I love healing - and doing reasonable damage is essential to that.

There is a reason healers do what they can do now and tanks as well... If anyone else remembers what it was like in beta and early eso, you'll remember how hard it was to do anything at all solo as tank or healer. It was brutal. Leveling them was a job and a half and caused a major shortage of them

The problem with Beta/early ESO was we were locked to a spec for all content. The armory system solves this problem so I have solo questing/dungeon dps/dungeon healer/pvp builds all available at a moments notice.

Sparxlost wrote: »

i was thinking that the dummy could constantly take damage from damage over time effects (burning,poison, bleeding) and then every so often like 10seconds or so would take some burst damage
it would also have a ton of different debuffs (defile) on it at all times that you could purge and will eventually reapply themselves

I wish we did more with negative effects in eso. It's all one button

Sparxlost wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

Part of me is against this as the LAST thing we need is people asking for healing parses. As a measure of a healer this would be extremely flawed.

However, there is part of me that would appreciate some type of controlled repeatable situation where I could test my effectiveness as a healer in different scenarios. I say "situation" because I'm not sure a dummy would cut it. HPS generally is not a good number to follow as it depends on how much damage people are taking and how good my fellow healer is in a trial. But it would be interesting to be able to more easily test, say, infused vs. arcane traits, or whether dropping springs or orbs first is more effective, or how many casts of BoL is needed to fully heal someone. I'm just giving some examples of things people might want to try to become a stronger healer in their class.

Right now to do these things one has to get in a group and it has to be in the sweet spot of not steamrolling content but not so green there's no way you can have a consistent pull.

I almost would want like a simulation room where groups of dummies take controlled, sustained damage with a boss where you could practice healing and parsing.

Anyway. Dummies in general frustrate me because they are a pain to reset and you can't even do it if it's not your own house. I feel like we could use some improvements in this area generally. But for healers I think we'd need something very well done to be more useful than harmful to the role. And right now I am skeptical that we'd get something well done. I feel very burned by the heavy-handed AwA implementation... at least parts of ZOS don't seem to understand what makes healing fun (ahem pale order/vampire functionality ahem) or how many people like to play with alts and track game progress. I kind of feel like healing is fun IN SPITE of changes ZOS has made lately as opposed to because of them and each patch I worry something will drop that'll ruin it completely.

Testing is different from practice
having a good idea of how much hps healers typically need would make building so much easier because it would eliminate bar space from overhealing for utility or damage...
if you wanted to get better in the field i would suggest doing veteran dungeons as they make good practice for end-game content i would also suggest dragonstar arena....

Well. I would counter by saying that, right now, DPS have dummies that allow for both testing and practice. They can be used to test out builds. But they also serve as a way for DPS to practice and tighten up their rotations in a controlled situation. Perhaps a healing dummy would allow for some testing, but it wouldn't be equivalent to what DPS can do with dummies. Therefore I think my point still stands. One, if we get only a healing dummy and not a full simulation healers will be judged by the limitations of the dummies which is misleading and oversimplifies the role. Two, healers have no way to tighten up and practice skill order and priority without requiring others to join and be patient with them. DPS can use dummies and tanks can go into any instance anywhere with a boss that doesn't have a one-shot mechanic to practice blocking, staying alive, self-healing, etc. without requiring others to come along for the practice. I have friends who go to areas of the world when they are sparsely populated and just solo world bosses as practice. But a healer has no good way to practice healing multiple party members while managing procs and parsing in between without jumping into content.

I personally am in a trial prog group, but I'm thinking back to how I grew as a healer. Before almost all queued dungeon runs either steamrolled content or went PAINFULLY slowly with inexperienced players (tanks who can't taunt and DPS who can't pass even small DPS checks). I'm not sure I'd be an effective healer if I learned to heal in today's environment. But I learned before power creep and before the gap between the floor and the ceiling was so wide and most dungeon runs allowed groups to see mechanics for a more consistent experience. This is why I'm thinking a simulation may be needed to fill the gap now. Also, a healing scenario that measures your DPS, buffs, and ensures you keep multiple targets alive might go a long way towards educating folks about what is really expected of healers and what the role really means.