jaws343 wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Wandering_Immigrant wrote: »

I think a lot of people aren't grasping the intended purpose or demographic for this mythic. There was a thread a while back asking about the possibility of a mythic that boosted one bar builds. Not for the purpose of creating a new meta or even a new niche, but for those poor souls who "can't" bar swap. We've all seen the comments in various thread with reasons cited as disabilities, or age, or high ping or whatever else, idk. If I'm being perfectly honest it's all always sounded like excuses to me, but I'm not here to argue the validity of such complaints, only to point out that this mythic was never intended for me or you to theory craft over it's juicy stats. It was intended for people who aren't bar swapping, aren't drinking potions on cool down, and aren't maintaining buffs, because buttons. I think it hits the mark as well as could be expected.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/593799/do-you-want-a-mythic-for-one-bar-builds

True. But most one-bar builds made are for DPS, and most people that have an inability to bar swap want their bar as simple as possible; Almost every build slots either Camouflage Hunter or Inner Light to reduce the skills needed to press down to 4 or 5 with an ultimate, or 2/3 with other skills like Bird of Prey and Bear from Warden or with pets from Sorc. The main problem with this whole skill change is the nerf to crit rate. It allowed this particular bar set-up, and allowed DPS builds using the ring with these set-ups to deal fairly top-end-like damage. I was no 120k, but 80-100k damage would allow people with such inability to play the game as intended to compete and play in the meta, allow them to do those veteran trials with other top-end players without falling behind. The change not only makes it so slotting the abilities that made 1-bar setups less viable for these players that are trying to make builds as simple as possible, but actually punishes you when you slot them since they're now dead skills. That's the problem.

There are other skills that can be slotted that provide passives. And just because a skill is slotted doesn't mean it has to be used. So you replace inner light with some other skill and then just don't use that skill. But now you get the buff from inner light via the ring and the added buff from slotting the new skill.

The problem is the buffs the ring applies now are redundant with other group buffs, meaning you're still going to be just as disadvantaged as you were before but with more time invested in it and more money invested in it.

It is not a good solution for 1 bar builds.

A good solution would be to revert back to the way it was before but add a condition that nerfs it only while you're transformed as a werewolf or vampire scion.
"While transformed, the bonuses granted are reduced by 50%"
And everyone wins. Werewolves aren't OP, one bar PvE is doing great, and niche non-werewolf PvP builds can run it for fun as well and still compete with the standard 2 bar builds.

The nerf makes it to where no one wins, werewolf doesn't get a good buff from this, it's useless in PvE, and no one else in PvP will touch it because it's markedly worse than a stadard 2 bar build.

So what if they are redundant?

Any proper group for trials or dungeons that are optimizing are likely not going to bring along one bar builds ever.

And if they do, then they can literally adjust their optimization to account for that.

Because like what MovesLikeJaguar said, the ring pre-nerf wasn't redundant and trial itemization was slanted towards 1 bar builds because you'd effortlessly hit 130k with this ring on a 1bar build on dummy parses. Now you'd be lucky to get anywhere near 80k or even 60k

For PvE, what the ring has to do is
1. Replace Infused Weapon Damage Maelstrom Backbar
2. Replace additional AOEs/DOTs you would stick on your backbar

So you NEED the unique weapon damage buff to replace the backbar enchant. A redundant buff you will be getting from your supports does not cut it.
You also need your abilities on your frontbar to hit hard enough to compensate for not having the extra damage from stuff on your backbar.
You also need to be able to pop a potion to get the related buffs, such as spell power or heroism. The recovery buffs and crit chance buffs are redundant with effects you'd get from potions, further devaluing the worth of this ring.

This nerf makes the mythic useless for any serious content. At that point, why is it a mythic and not just a 5pc set bonus on some trash overland set if the point is for overland casual players to use it because bar swapping is hard? Casuals don't need stats this heavy for casual content anyway, so why make a mythic that they don't even need and that misses the mark for actually serious content? It's counterintuitive and renders it utterly useless. This is the worst possible route ZOS could have taken it.

BroughBreaux wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Wandering_Immigrant wrote: »

I think a lot of people aren't grasping the intended purpose or demographic for this mythic. There was a thread a while back asking about the possibility of a mythic that boosted one bar builds. Not for the purpose of creating a new meta or even a new niche, but for those poor souls who "can't" bar swap. We've all seen the comments in various thread with reasons cited as disabilities, or age, or high ping or whatever else, idk. If I'm being perfectly honest it's all always sounded like excuses to me, but I'm not here to argue the validity of such complaints, only to point out that this mythic was never intended for me or you to theory craft over it's juicy stats. It was intended for people who aren't bar swapping, aren't drinking potions on cool down, and aren't maintaining buffs, because buttons. I think it hits the mark as well as could be expected.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/593799/do-you-want-a-mythic-for-one-bar-builds

True. But most one-bar builds made are for DPS, and most people that have an inability to bar swap want their bar as simple as possible; Almost every build slots either Camouflage Hunter or Inner Light to reduce the skills needed to press down to 4 or 5 with an ultimate, or 2/3 with other skills like Bird of Prey and Bear from Warden or with pets from Sorc. The main problem with this whole skill change is the nerf to crit rate. It allowed this particular bar set-up, and allowed DPS builds using the ring with these set-ups to deal fairly top-end-like damage. I was no 120k, but 80-100k damage would allow people with such inability to play the game as intended to compete and play in the meta, allow them to do those veteran trials with other top-end players without falling behind. The change not only makes it so slotting the abilities that made 1-bar setups less viable for these players that are trying to make builds as simple as possible, but actually punishes you when you slot them since they're now dead skills. That's the problem.

There are other skills that can be slotted that provide passives. And just because a skill is slotted doesn't mean it has to be used. So you replace inner light with some other skill and then just don't use that skill. But now you get the buff from inner light via the ring and the added buff from slotting the new skill.

The problem is the buffs the ring applies now are redundant with other group buffs, meaning you're still going to be just as disadvantaged as you were before but with more time invested in it and more money invested in it.

It is not a good solution for 1 bar builds.

A good solution would be to revert back to the way it was before but add a condition that nerfs it only while you're transformed as a werewolf or vampire scion.
"While transformed, the bonuses granted are reduced by 50%"
And everyone wins. Werewolves aren't OP, one bar PvE is doing great, and niche non-werewolf PvP builds can run it for fun as well and still compete with the standard 2 bar builds.

The nerf makes it to where no one wins, werewolf doesn't get a good buff from this, it's useless in PvE, and no one else in PvP will touch it because it's markedly worse than a stadard 2 bar build.

So what if they are redundant?

Any proper group for trials or dungeons that are optimizing are likely not going to bring along one bar builds ever.

And if they do, then they can literally adjust their optimization to account for that.

Because like what MovesLikeJaguar said, the ring pre-nerf wasn't redundant and trial itemization was slanted towards 1 bar builds because you'd effortlessly hit 130k with this ring on a 1bar build on dummy parses. Now you'd be lucky to get anywhere near 80k or even 60k

For PvE, what the ring has to do is
1. Replace Infused Weapon Damage Maelstrom Backbar
2. Replace additional AOEs/DOTs you would stick on your backbar

So you NEED the unique weapon damage buff to replace the backbar enchant. A redundant buff you will be getting from your supports does not cut it.
You also need your abilities on your frontbar to hit hard enough to compensate for not having the extra damage from stuff on your backbar.
You also need to be able to pop a potion to get the related buffs, such as spell power or heroism. The recovery buffs and crit chance buffs are redundant with effects you'd get from potions, further devaluing the worth of this ring.

This nerf makes the mythic useless for any serious content. At that point, why is it a mythic and not just a 5pc set bonus on some trash overland set if the point is for overland casual players to use it because bar swapping is hard? Casuals don't need stats this heavy for casual content anyway, so why make a mythic that they don't even need and that misses the mark for actually serious content? It's counterintuitive and renders it utterly useless. This is the worst possible route ZOS could have taken it.

No one should be able to effortlessly hit 130k damage, especially when only using a few skills actively. It's difficult to have a real conversation on this when players are coming from the standpoint that a build using minimal skills should do the same damage as a build using a full set of skills. We are never going to agree and I don't think I will ever find your argument compelling enough to be considered.

The ring provides a ton of skills, sets, and potions worth of buffs and opens a ton of options for a build. It's a decent mythic without becoming mandatory or over powered.

divnyi wrote: »

@jaws343 max stats is bound aegis (8% max magica) + inner light (7% max magica), leaving only 3 slots after that.
Skills you must fit: shield, spammable, heal, streak.

I've had some great success on a matriarch sorc without aegis and without shield. Basically just using matriarch as a pseudo shield with the heal. It's interesting, but man you gotta spam that matriarch lol.

divnyi wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

@jaws343 max stats is bound aegis (8% max magica) + inner light (7% max magica), leaving only 3 slots after that.
Skills you must fit: shield, spammable, heal, streak.

I've had some great success on a matriarch sorc without aegis and without shield. Basically just using matriarch as a pseudo shield with the heal. It's interesting, but man you gotta spam that matriarch lol.

Building max stats and not using shield is counter-productive. Why even building max stats then?

From a one bar perspective with this ring, you can actually get away with running full infused spell damage jewelry, so you can move towards spell damage stacking without worrying about sustain.

On live, I really only do it when my BG group needs better heals, so it's less built for it and more a moment of opportunity, but it works really well and would probably work better with a spell damage stack.

jaws343 wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

BroughBreaux wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Wandering_Immigrant wrote: »

I think a lot of people aren't grasping the intended purpose or demographic for this mythic. There was a thread a while back asking about the possibility of a mythic that boosted one bar builds. Not for the purpose of creating a new meta or even a new niche, but for those poor souls who "can't" bar swap. We've all seen the comments in various thread with reasons cited as disabilities, or age, or high ping or whatever else, idk. If I'm being perfectly honest it's all always sounded like excuses to me, but I'm not here to argue the validity of such complaints, only to point out that this mythic was never intended for me or you to theory craft over it's juicy stats. It was intended for people who aren't bar swapping, aren't drinking potions on cool down, and aren't maintaining buffs, because buttons. I think it hits the mark as well as could be expected.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/593799/do-you-want-a-mythic-for-one-bar-builds

True. But most one-bar builds made are for DPS, and most people that have an inability to bar swap want their bar as simple as possible; Almost every build slots either Camouflage Hunter or Inner Light to reduce the skills needed to press down to 4 or 5 with an ultimate, or 2/3 with other skills like Bird of Prey and Bear from Warden or with pets from Sorc. The main problem with this whole skill change is the nerf to crit rate. It allowed this particular bar set-up, and allowed DPS builds using the ring with these set-ups to deal fairly top-end-like damage. I was no 120k, but 80-100k damage would allow people with such inability to play the game as intended to compete and play in the meta, allow them to do those veteran trials with other top-end players without falling behind. The change not only makes it so slotting the abilities that made 1-bar setups less viable for these players that are trying to make builds as simple as possible, but actually punishes you when you slot them since they're now dead skills. That's the problem.

There are other skills that can be slotted that provide passives. And just because a skill is slotted doesn't mean it has to be used. So you replace inner light with some other skill and then just don't use that skill. But now you get the buff from inner light via the ring and the added buff from slotting the new skill.

The problem is the buffs the ring applies now are redundant with other group buffs, meaning you're still going to be just as disadvantaged as you were before but with more time invested in it and more money invested in it.

It is not a good solution for 1 bar builds.

A good solution would be to revert back to the way it was before but add a condition that nerfs it only while you're transformed as a werewolf or vampire scion.
"While transformed, the bonuses granted are reduced by 50%"
And everyone wins. Werewolves aren't OP, one bar PvE is doing great, and niche non-werewolf PvP builds can run it for fun as well and still compete with the standard 2 bar builds.

The nerf makes it to where no one wins, werewolf doesn't get a good buff from this, it's useless in PvE, and no one else in PvP will touch it because it's markedly worse than a stadard 2 bar build.

So what if they are redundant?

Any proper group for trials or dungeons that are optimizing are likely not going to bring along one bar builds ever.

And if they do, then they can literally adjust their optimization to account for that.

Because like what MovesLikeJaguar said, the ring pre-nerf wasn't redundant and trial itemization was slanted towards 1 bar builds because you'd effortlessly hit 130k with this ring on a 1bar build on dummy parses. Now you'd be lucky to get anywhere near 80k or even 60k

For PvE, what the ring has to do is
1. Replace Infused Weapon Damage Maelstrom Backbar
2. Replace additional AOEs/DOTs you would stick on your backbar

So you NEED the unique weapon damage buff to replace the backbar enchant. A redundant buff you will be getting from your supports does not cut it.
You also need your abilities on your frontbar to hit hard enough to compensate for not having the extra damage from stuff on your backbar.
You also need to be able to pop a potion to get the related buffs, such as spell power or heroism. The recovery buffs and crit chance buffs are redundant with effects you'd get from potions, further devaluing the worth of this ring.

This nerf makes the mythic useless for any serious content. At that point, why is it a mythic and not just a 5pc set bonus on some trash overland set if the point is for overland casual players to use it because bar swapping is hard? Casuals don't need stats this heavy for casual content anyway, so why make a mythic that they don't even need and that misses the mark for actually serious content? It's counterintuitive and renders it utterly useless. This is the worst possible route ZOS could have taken it.

No one should be able to effortlessly hit 130k damage, especially when only using a few skills actively. It's difficult to have a real conversation on this when players are coming from the standpoint that a build using minimal skills should do the same damage as a build using a full set of skills. We are never going to agree and I don't think I will ever find your argument compelling enough to be considered.

The ring provides a ton of skills, sets, and potions worth of buffs and opens a ton of options for a build. It's a decent mythic without becoming mandatory or over powered.

"I should have to do a ton of extra work to do good damage, no I don't want it to be easier"
Not trying to strawman you, this is a summary of what you're saying.

Also I'll reiterate before I continue that the mythic isn't useful for anyone now post-nerf because it's too potent for casuals and too underpowered for endgamers. It's in mythic purgatory along with Snow Treaders, Bloodlord's Embrace, Perals of Ehlnofey, and Thrassian Stranglers. What's even the point if all the mythics suck for the majority of content except for 2?

Anyway, Why is it bad that endgame content becomes more accessible? There's a lot of fun to be had in Trials and the difficulty comes from mechanics and the skill required to organize a group of 12 people to do it flawlessly, not focusing on making sure you're mashing all 12 buttons at the exact moment you need to, which can easily be botched because of lag or latency or ping. I do all of this proficiently so it's not a skill issue for me, it's simply a matter of raising the floor because I know a lot of people would get enjoyment out of doing the endgame who can't currently for whatever reason.

Also, I'm sorry to say but people are hitting 150k on MagDK right now on Live so "no one should be able to effortlessly hit 130k" is an outdated sentiment. Roll the clock back 5 or 6 years ago and people didn't think 80k dps was possible, and now that's bare minimum requirement rookie numbers.


Also, just as an aside, I've been kinda hoping for a while that ZOS axed the backbar anyway and replaced bar buffers with something more useful because pushing extra DPS was never the intention of the backbar when the game launched 8 years ago, it was only meant to provide an alternate weapon choice for regular content without having to swap things around. It only later became essential to use both bars as harder content started being theorycrafted for. But idk that would probably not be a popular decision so idc if they do or don't.

jaws343 wrote: »

I'll even go as far to say that this ring is still fairly viable for a PVP setup as well.

Let's take a pet sorc for PVP for example. A normal 2 bar setup may look like:

FB: pet, pet, inner light, ele weapon, frag
BB: pet, pet, boundless, curse, streak

Well the ring provides crit, so you can drop inner light. It provides major resistance, so there goes the need for boundless. You can drop ele and run frags as a spammable. Move streak to front bar. Now you have a single bar build with great heals from matriarch and major courage, as well as max stats, persistent recoveries. And no worry at all about bar swap lag issues or needing to get to your back bar at inopportune times to reset buffs or movement.

The same can translate across a lot of classes for PVP if built right.

MagSorc sheet with Oakensoul using a potion of speed + heroism + vitality


MagSorc sheet using a standard double bar build with spell power pots and Markyn Ring of Majesty instead of oakensoul


Both of these are using 5pc necropotencce and 5pc bright throat's boast with 1pc Mighty Chudan for armor.
It's not even close. Oakensoul can't compete with this nerf.

2bar build has 5k more armor, 100 more mag recovery, 400 more spell damage. Same penentration and critical chance. Oakensoul 1bar has more max stats and more stam recovery. That's it. And this isn't even a perfectly optimized magsorc, this is just a translation of using 2bars vs only 1 with the same stuff and it's unquestionably better.

And just for fun here's the 2bar build with better optimization and the only thing oaken has over 2bars is slightly more max stats and stam recovery to an almost unnoticeable degree. Every other stat is markedly better with 2 bars.


So anyway this ring needs buffed bad.

EDIT:
AHAHAAH so I totally forgot I wasn't using a pet on the 2bar build and wasn't even getting a 5pc bonus from necroptence and the 2bar build was STILL better LMAO
ZOS please fix this garbage mythic before it goes live.

jaws343 wrote: »

How is it useless? It now provides a bunch of major buffs, that allow you to free up bar space even more and slot different skills that will help the build more.

^ This.

The prior version of Oakensoul Ring was not remotely balanced. The PTS videos were simply insane.

Really love the changes, it's a Mythic that serves a clear purpose without creating imbalance.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I think that this was a very well-considered change.

Ordinary players never needed (and never will need...) 100k+ DPS to do any content in the game - full stop. So being upset that this Mythic is no longer the Konami Code for huge DPS is sort of missing the point.

This Mythic was never created so that one-bar builds could do Godslayer runs, it was created primarily as a boost to the very large number of solo players who did not ordinarily receive a bunch of trial buffs during their normal gameplay. With that use case in mind, this change absolutely hits the ball out of the park.

For a solo player without trial buffs, Major Courage by itself is a huge bonus - and then you stack on top of that the tons of saved bar slots from no longer having to slot utility and buff skills AND the giant bonuses to all of your max stat pools. As someone above me mentioned, it's now the Gaze of Sithis and Death-Dealer's Fete (and Shapeshifter's Chain) users who should be somewhat perturbed at this still quite wide gap in stat density.

I get nobody likes nerfs but this Mythic was out-of-hand in both PvP and PvE contexts. It now has a clearly defined use case that will still benefit a whole lot of players without upstaging double-bar rotations or throwing PvP into power-creep chaos.

^ This is the most balanced and objective take on the Oakensoul Ring changes.

Meh always very hard pressed to give up 2 bars for PvP. Any WW even pre nerf version must deal with being locked down and the costs of break free coupled with healing. People really are underselling that sacrifice in PVP. The regen is what I miss most about this from a WW perspective. It’s something that could have been enhanced by pots. Bringing regen values back to more past levels allowing for a more active gameplay.

As of today without hyper focus of your WW build any competent player should be able to lock you down without issue.

Meanwhile I’m both excited and dreading the dotmaggedon headed our way. Templar (usually Stam but have played both). If I go mag I now should be able to place cleave or rending without having a massive drop in damage with this new hybridization. And if I go stam it opens up the possibility of adding mag dots.

Why on earth would I ever give up a second bar only to gimp into a WW who I know I’d ghost if I ran into him.

Lalothen wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I expected this item to get nerfed, but honestly, I expected them to make Oakensoul how it was on the intitial "preview" that was on internal server, that some content creators could participate in:

Anyway, too bad imho that they decided to convert stats to buffs (as it is not the same and way weaker), but... who cares. It is just pixels anyway.

Those stats look pretty spot-on really.... it makes me wonder why they didn't just set the stats to those for this patch iteration, instead reworking it into major buffs over the completely unfounded fear of WWs suddenly pulling PvP godliness out of their furry-tailed backsides.

w002exp wrote: »

One thing about solo play is you are the tank, healer and DPS. You need more skills because you need more utility.

Unless you're a Templar. You literally just need Sweeps. it will carry you through all content.