Even No Man Sky has cloth physics (and capes) now

Ditronus · April 2022

No other MMO nails exploration, story, and the "bigness" of the world like ESO, yet the game feels like it is continually bogged down by poor foundational engine/under-the-hood choices from 8 years ago. Poor character models, no cloth physics for gear--resulting in gear looking like it is pasted on your character, horribly dated skill animations, and of course performance issues are all results of a shaky, dated foundation, dragging down such a beautiful world (with shaders). It feels like this game will always be continually held back creatively into the future because of decisions made into the past. Why has there been no new class? Why have classes not had their skill lines expanded? Why are there no new animation updates to a game almost a decade-old? Why are there no new weapon skill lines, leaving most of the player base's builds using virtually the same builds for years? Why are there no cloth physics?

The future of the game is doomed to live on marginally, always doing that bare minimum to eek out content to keep a handful of whales' wallets open.

It is a shame.

https://www.nomanssky.com/outlaws-update/

DMuehlhausen · April 2022

Yes they have locked themselves into an 8 year old + game engine. There are limitations. Same issue that EA has with Frostbite engine. EA demands all games, or they did for awhile, are done in Frostbite. It makes sense so that all developers know how to use the engine, but it's crap for inventory management games.

What we have is what we are going to get. No flying mounts (even if they could they never should) capes, or swimming etc it's not possible in the game engine. Only way to fix that is if they made ESO 2 and moved to a new engine, but the is probably never happening since it's been 8 years and they just keep developing for this one.

So either accept it and stop complaining about things that can never happen or move on to a game that has these features because the engine supports it.

Gundug · April 2022

I don’t expect cloth physics to be added to the game, although the outfits would definitely benefit from it. Take a look at gear in Mount & Blade II: Bannerlord as a comparison for how good something very similar can be made to look.

I disagree that swimming could not be implemented. I have been at the bottom of rivers in the game. It’s just more landscape. Add a screen filter and different movement system and you are diving underwater. Flying, on the other hand, I would not see as likely, considering how the maps are made, and how poorly they look when seen from a distance. It would also invalidate the many natural barriers the designers put into every zone. These are just opinions, however.

I’ve been reading responses from players for years emphatically stating ZOS will never do this or that, while each new expansion brings forth one or more of these features. Maybe unless you are one of the developers of this game, refrain from authoritatively informing us what ZOS will or will not do.

DMuehlhausen · April 2022

The same reason flying won't be implemented is the same reason swimming won't. The engine can't handle it. There is essentially for freedom of movement only horizontal movement no vertical movement. You can raise and lower a few feet but that's it.

They have even explained numerous times, though not for years why capes can't be done in the engine as well. It's why the Breton outfit looks like garbage. What should be a flowing cape is just a stiff jacket.

Arunei · April 2022

Gundug wrote: »

I don’t expect cloth physics to be added to the game, although the outfits would definitely benefit from it. Take a look at gear in Mount & Blade II: Bannerlord as a comparison for how good something very similar can be made to look.

I disagree that swimming could not be implemented. I have been at the bottom of rivers in the game. It’s just more landscape. Add a screen filter and different movement system and you are diving underwater. Flying, on the other hand, I would not see as likely, considering how the maps are made, and how poorly they look when seen from a distance. It would also invalidate the many natural barriers the designers put into every zone. These are just opinions, however.

I’ve been reading responses from players for years emphatically stating ZOS will never do this or that, while each new expansion brings forth one or more of these features. Maybe unless you are one of the developers of this game, refrain from authoritatively informing us what ZOS will or will not do.

People are "authoritatively informing" you and others of things regarding swimming/capes/flying because these are things ZOS themselves have said won't work. This isn't like them saying we would never see Dragons but then "Here's the Year of the Dragons lol" or saying they wouldn't add Alliance Change Tokens but there they are now in the store. There is a big difference between "won't add because we don't feel interested in developing X or Y thing" and "won't add because X or Y thing literally can't be coded in thanks to the game engine's limitations".

Swimming requires free movement on all three axis...axises?...axes?...whatever the plural for axis is. It's not just a "special filter", and that "different movement system" is something that isn't possible on the engine. Flying is the same way, but beyond that is the fact that the maps are too small and the game in general not meant for flying. Fast travel and a bunch of speed-boosting things make flying sort of pointless. Capes were around in beta but were removed because the devs realized they performed horribly thanks to the engine not being able to handle cloth or hair physics well in the slightest.

Unless they decide to develop a new engine and can port every existing account to it rather than forcing people to start over, these are simply things that won't be added. And seeing as they're restructuring base game code starting sometime this year, I really don't see them working on a whole new engine any time soon.

belial5221_ESO · April 2022

If there's option to disable it,I'd like to see it.Not everyone can afford the system to have something like that enabled,would put more of a strain and fps can drop for it,and prices of components are too high right now.

They could possibly put an animation on capes so they moves certain ways while moving,or idle,means jsut adding more bones to skeleton and rigging.Would be alot less work,and keep low spec systems from frying,heh.

Kiralyn2000 · April 2022

NMS also has very few players & NPCs in any one space at any one time.

(I really don't get the attraction to capes)

JKorr · April 2022

Ditronus wrote: »

No other MMO nails exploration, story, and the "bigness" of the world like ESO, yet the game feels like it is continually bogged down by poor foundational engine/under-the-hood choices from 8 years ago. Poor character models, no cloth physics for gear--resulting in gear looking like it is pasted on your character, horribly dated skill animations, and of course performance issues are all results of a shaky, dated foundation, dragging down such a beautiful world (with shaders). It feels like this game will always be continually held back creatively into the future because of decisions made into the past. Why has there been no new class? Why have classes not had their skill lines expanded? Why are there no new animation updates to a game almost a decade-old? Why are there no new weapon skill lines, leaving most of the player base's builds using virtually the same builds for years? Why are there no cloth physics?

The future of the game is doomed to live on marginally, always doing that bare minimum to eek out content to keep a handful of whales' wallets open.

It is a shame.

https://www.nomanssky.com/outlaws-update/

Yes, yes, please give us all more clipping issues, wonky hitboxes, the inability to have staffs, shields, bows, and backpacks, jerky framerates even worse than presently, and more reasons for everyone to yell about the broken game. Because caped swashbucklers and dastardly rogues who'd end up accidentally hanging themselves or caught by the first guard who can grab that gorgeous flowing cape as they attempt to run by are just teh greatest thing evah.

Yeah, personally I would rather not ruin the game by adding cloaks and capes because people have this Batman/Dracula thing about capes and cloaks. Heck, even the Count on Sesame Street swirls his cape. Rabbit hole ahead: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BadassCape My characters would rather be unobtrusive and unnoticeable when out to do stuff the guards would object to, rather than have a swirling, billowing, DRAMATIC cloak that rustles, catches on objects, makes it impossible to carry her shield/staff/bow.

Remathilis · April 2022

I'd take better skirt/robe physics over capes any day of the week. Especially if we could use the crotch/butt flap rigging and turn them into actual long skirts that flap when jumping.

NotaDaedraWorshipper · April 2022

What a silly comparison. No Man's Sky is a very newly made game with a very different game engine to ESO's old one.

Crismac · April 2022

I wonder if No Man Sky would be interested in a trade we could offer the card game for a cape. Sounds like they would get the better end of it, but you never know in trades. Time will tell.

Grizzbeorn · April 2022

Arunei wrote: »

Unless they decide to develop a new engine and can port every existing account to it

That would never happen, either.
Switching engines isn't possible without rebuilding the entire game from scratch on the new engine, which, essentially, would result in a brand new game.

Amottica · April 2022

From what I understand No Man’s sky multiplayer is limited to a few dozen players and has hardly a fraction of what ESO has. It having cloth physics doesn’t mean much as it’s inferior in so many ways.

SilverBride · April 2022

Capes are impractical and not something I want to see.

Mesite · April 2022

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Unless they decide to develop a new engine and can port every existing account to it

That would never happen, either.
Switching engines isn't possible without rebuilding the entire game from scratch on the new engine, which, essentially, would result in a brand new game.

I played Defiance. They moved to new servers and called it Defiance 2050. It was exactly the same game but you couldn't transfer anything to the new game. They both shutdown not long after that. I'm not sure what the moral of the story is, but I would be wary if they said they were rebuilding ESO.

Grizzbeorn · April 2022

SilverBride wrote: »

Capes are impractical and not something I want to see.

Agreed.

Stamicka · April 2022

I like ESOs current graphics actually. The game looks great. I have a lot of complaints about the game, but appearances aren’t really one of them.

DMuehlhausen · April 2022

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

What a silly comparison. No Man's Sky is a very newly made game with a very different game engine to ESO's old one.

It's not really, it's about 6 years old so not much more than ESO> I know it doesn't seem like it's been out that long but it has.

Commandment · April 2022

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

What a silly comparison. No Man's Sky is a very newly made game with a very different game engine to ESO's old one.

It's not really, it's about 6 years old so not much more than ESO> I know it doesn't seem like it's been out that long but it has.

2 years makes a difference.

JKorr · April 2022

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

What a silly comparison. No Man's Sky is a very newly made game with a very different game engine to ESO's old one.

No Man's Sky is a survival game developed and published by Hello Games. It was released worldwide for the PlayStation 4 and Microsoft Windows in August 2016, for Xbox One in July 2018, and for the PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series X and Series S consoles in November 2020[/quote]

2016; slightly newer than ESO.

Also wouldn't use No Man's Sky as an example. Those devs super over promised what could be done in the game, didn't/couldn't deliver at release, and ended up with death threats from less than thrilled players. https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/4y1h9i/wheres_the_no_mans_sky_we_were_sold_on_a_big_list/

DMuehlhausen · April 2022

Commandment wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

What a silly comparison. No Man's Sky is a very newly made game with a very different game engine to ESO's old one.

It's not really, it's about 6 years old so not much more than ESO> I know it doesn't seem like it's been out that long but it has.

2 years makes a difference.

Yes it makes a difference, but I think people forget how long NMS has been out. I think a lot think it came out when they finally improved it, but in fact it was years prior to that. It could also be built 10 years earlier and use an engine that supports capes and they could do it.

Xinihp · April 2022

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

...it's not possible in the game engine.

I keep hearing this "the engine is 8 years old it can't handle it" rhetoric passed around like it is fact.

Skyrim came out in 2011. I'll let you do the math. MODDERS were able to put full physics in that game.

If anyone can post a link where the devs say "it can't technically be done" then I would consider applying for a job there.

Otherwise I think people have just come to enjoy saying "no" for no reason.

Also before someone jumps in with the classic "but that's a single player game" let me just save you the lack of effort. That fact makes literally ZERO difference. Physics is rendered on the client side. It has nothing to do with server lag.

If you still feel the need to press the issue based on zero facts, Tera and Guild Wars 2 both have full character and cloth physics. These are both MMO's, and both came out in 2012.

TWO YEARS BEFORE ESO.

Please stop with the "it just can't" rhetoric when it is clearly baseless.

Vevvev · April 2022

The engine can handle caps, but the art team cut it out because they couldn't get them looking good. We already have floating armor pieces and the capes just made it look even worse, especially with the clipping with hair and shields.

You won't see capes because they were actually tried, but cut out.

Xinihp · April 2022

Vevvev wrote: »

...the art team cut it out because they couldn't get them looking good.

Again, this is not true. Let me just say, if a AAA studio's art team can't do what games like Guild Wars 2 and Tera (with far lower budget) did 2 YEARS before ESO released, then I would be taking a serious look at who I was hiring for my art team. This is clearly not the case. The art team is certainly capable of it. You don't get to work at Bethesda/Zenimax without being able to hack making art to the standards of 2 years before your game released.

The problem is that ESO insists on supporting decade-old consoles. But that isn't even a real reason not to have it. As evidenced by the initial release of Global Illumination as a PC-only graphical setting, they could simply include the additional visual capabilities on clients who's hardware could actually support it.

This would increase the resale value of the game by keeping it relevant to the current decade's fidelity standards.

The problem seems to be an unwillingness on the part of the devs to design separately for different systems.

Not a physical technical limitation of any kind. Which is why I remain hopeful.

If they can be made to see reason that it would make them more money for a longer time, maybe it will happen.

Epona222 · April 2022

I'd far rather they sorted out being able to have more furnishing slots in housing - if they can't do that I don't know how anyone thinks capes are feasible!

Xinihp · April 2022

Epona222 wrote: »

I'd far rather they sorted out being able to have more furnishing slots in housing - if they can't do that I don't know how anyone thinks capes are feasible!

Totally unrelated issue. Housing limitations are about database size on the server side. Physics is purely a client-side rendering requirement, meaning it is only limited by what YOUR video card can take.

The housing limit MAY be resolved when/IF they finish upgrading their servers which they have been working on for 3 years.

SerafinaWaterstar · April 2022

Seriously, what is the obsession with capes?

(This means nothing to me, ooooooh Vienna)

Vevvev · April 2022

Xinihp wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

...the art team cut it out because they couldn't get them looking good.

Again, this is not true. Let me just say, if a AAA studio's art team can't do what games like Guild Wars 2 and Tera (with far lower budget) did 2 YEARS before ESO released, then I would be taking a serious look at who I was hiring for my art team. This is clearly not the case. The art team is certainly capable of it. You don't get to work at Bethesda/Zenimax without being able to hack making art to the standards of 2 years before your game released.

The problem is that ESO insists on supporting decade-old consoles. But that isn't even a real reason not to have it. As evidenced by the initial release of Global Illumination as a PC-only graphical setting, they could simply include the additional visual capabilities on clients who's hardware could actually support it.

This would increase the resale value of the game by keeping it relevant to the current decade's fidelity standards.

The problem seems to be an unwillingness on the part of the devs to design separately for different systems.

Not a physical technical limitation of any kind. Which is why I remain hopeful.

If they can be made to see reason that it would make them more money for a longer time, maybe it will happen.

Not true? That's legit what Rich Lambert told us.

Marto · April 2022

Xinihp wrote: »

Skyrim came out in 2011. I'll let you do the math. MODDERS were able to put full physics in that game.

Making an unoptimized and glitchy physics cape is a lot easier than one that is optimized, compatible, and doesn't cause further issues.

It's the same situation with things like add-ons. Add-on authors use a simplified language, which is less optimized, and less capable.

Modding is generally speaking a lot easier than developing for an actual game. Half the job is already done for you, either by the devs who created the tools, or users that share their frameworks and code with the community. You don't have to worry about optimization, stability. You don't have to hire QA or do compliance tests.

Xinihp wrote: »

Again, this is not true. Let me just say, if a AAA studio's art team can't do what games like Guild Wars 2 and Tera (with far lower budget) did 2 YEARS before ESO released, then I would be taking a serious look at who I was hiring for my art team. This is clearly not the case. The art team is certainly capable of it. You don't get to work at Bethesda/Zenimax without being able to hack making art to the standards of 2 years before your game released.

Guild Wars 2 doesn't have player races with tails.

Tera doesn't have shoulder armor that dynamically adapts in size or shape. Or shields and weapons that automatically adjust accordingly to avoid clipping

Different games have different systems for character animations, physics, and armor. They have different challenges and obstacles. Features that ZOS might introduce after 6 months of work might take 3 years for the devs of FFXIV. And vice versa.

I'd absolutely love for ESO to have capes. I'm 100% on team capes. And I hope they consider trying again, now that they have more experience, and a better and more robust engine. But I'm not going to pretend it's an easy thing to do.

It's not impossible. But it is hard.

merpins · April 2022

Game appearance isn't something many players have a problem with. In fact, for an MMO released in 2014 with development starting at the earliest 2009, it's a gorgeous looking game. It could use a new engine at some point in the future, which would give more stability and graphical fidelity, but also allow them to add stuff like underwater and sky-based exploration and content, but that's not really something that's NEEDED.

SpiritKitten · April 2022

I despise capes in games. Not only does it kill framerate in crowds and raids, it obscures outfits. If capes/cloaks are ever enabled, there needs to be a toggle in settings to not see them, like other games have.