RandomKodiak wrote: »

Kory wrote: »

Need to see an actual build with this mythic on, and see it in action in actual pvp in Cyrodil, IC, and Bgs, because some people just have a personal grudge against WWs as opposed to anyother build or class they struggle against....

That's a Stamsorc wearing Tzogvin's, Rele, 1pc Slimecraw and Oakensoul on a 21 mil trial dummy. Not overpowered at all in current meta for PvE but then go WW in PvP and that would be insane. Sorry for no info tab CMX is not letting any other tab show but damage is at least close as a 90k parse comes in just under 4min.

90k is nothing compared to current meta numbers 110-140k. Especially on next iteration SS.

Beyond that, that’s buffing the average floor, which is what they want and is good for content completion percentages.

Werewolves have always ridden a fine line between being reasonable and overpowered. We’ve all been there for meta’s where WW is overpowered and they are not fun. The IC is usually filled with them. Luckily ZOS has taken the appropriate steps to make sure they are strong, but not overpowered, simply offering a 1 bar build that operates effectively in PvP for less technically skilled players to enjoy.

If this mythic goes live in its current state it will completely push the WW balance into an overpowered state and PvP will be overpopulated with them, which is not a fun environment for anyone. ZOS, please take the necessary steps to avoid this situation. No mythic should have such an easy way to circumvent it’s drawback. Do what’s right and don’t allow this ring to operate under transformation.

Keep the stats as is, half the stats in pvp land or you could give it an additional downsides, like no mounting or riding others mounts, no stealthing, no putting down siege, or no healing allies, no granting allies buffs on top of no bar swapping.

Liam12548 wrote: »

Title. WW can use this with no drawbacks, and it will be extremely broken. WW is strong enough as is - this mythic will push them way too far into the overpowered zone.

Perhaps an argument could be made if WW was a timed ult like every other transformation in the game, but the current iteration of WW allows for them to remain in the form indefinitely.

Please disable this mythic in WW form.

This thread is extremely toxic. Werewolves repeatedly get threads against us as a sub class. I'm not even going to go into the drawbacks and actual mediocre experience in pvp at high level play. It's a broken record at this point.

So werewolves aren't allowed to enjoy specific sets in the game anymore???

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Gilliam

Skoomah wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

Title. WW can use this with no drawbacks, and it will be extremely broken. WW is strong enough as is - this mythic will push them way too far into the overpowered zone.

Perhaps an argument could be made if WW was a timed ult like every other transformation in the game, but the current iteration of WW allows for them to remain in the form indefinitely.

Please disable this mythic in WW form.

This thread is extremely toxic. Werewolves repeatedly get threads against us as a sub class. I'm not even going to go into the drawbacks and actual mediocre experience in pvp at high level play. It's a broken record at this point.

So werewolves aren't allowed to enjoy specific sets in the game anymore???

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Gilliam

So players fighting broken werewolves are not allowed to enjoy the game?

Item has clear and huge drawback for great power, being able to bypass it's drawback is not fair. Simple as that. It's not about werewolves it's about fair play.

jaws343 wrote: »

Not if said sets are going to make werewolves (or one bar builds in general) incredibly overpowered. But the fact is, the mythic favors werewolves extremely well and is absurdly stat dense for absolutely zero drawback on a werewolf build. It's more stat dense that Gaze of Sithis ever was and that mythic disabled block mitigation. And they nerfed Gaze far before it ever made it out of PTS. And they definitely need to do the same here.

Not quite. WW with one bar does not have an ultimate, while non-ww 1 bar build has an ultimate - which is huge. WW is not always transformed, and part of the thing that is crucial when some one is playing as WW is to know when to transform and when to cancel transformation, as very often it will determine if you will die or not.

Besides that, if we were to compare build optimized for using only 1 bar vs WW and both of them were using Oakensoul - I think that overall, non-ww wins as it does not have flaws that WW transformation forces upon you. WW will only match other 1-bar setup only when it is transformed, but in human form, ww 1 bar will always be worse than non-ww one bar setup.

Liam12548 wrote: »

I'm confused about how my OP is toxic. I'm just pointing out that the intended drawback of this incredibly stat dense mythic is avoided by werewolf, which is an oversight. You cannot simply give those stats to a werewolf and expect everything to be fine and balanced.

If the drawback to having these absurd stats is that you cannot barswap, you shouldn't be able to use the mythic in a scenario where you've already exchanged your ability to barswap for a host of buffs.

By that logic I should not be allowed to use Gaze of Sithis on a roly-poly NB, because I can ignore the block penalty, by simply making a build that is not using block.

Edit: I think OP may be over-reacting, because of how insane Oakensoul set is. Guaranteed it is gonna get nerfed on PTS. I simply really dont understand why OP is going after WW, as Oakensoul will be used on every 1 - bar build (and they are plenty on them out there). I even think that Oakensoul will actually create some 1-bar builds lol. I would not be worried about WW. Has any one thought about Ball Groups using this set ? Or One-shot gankers ? How DC & PB sets will work if paired with Oakensoul ? That is some serious Yikes... WW pales in comparison with that lol.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Not if said sets are going to make werewolves (or one bar builds in general) incredibly overpowered. But the fact is, the mythic favors werewolves extremely well and is absurdly stat dense for absolutely zero drawback on a werewolf build. It's more stat dense that Gaze of Sithis ever was and that mythic disabled block mitigation. And they nerfed Gaze far before it ever made it out of PTS. And they definitely need to do the same here.

Not quite. WW with one bar does not have an ultimate, while non-ww 1 bar build has an ultimate - which is huge. WW is not always transformed, and part of the thing that is crucial when some one is playing as WW is to know when to transform and when to cancel transformation, as very often it will determine if you will die or not.

Besides that, if we were to compare build optimized for using only 1 bar vs WW and both of them were using Oakensoul - I think that overall, non-ww wins as it does not have flaws that WW transformation forces upon you. WW will only match other 1-bar setup only when it is transformed, but in human form, ww 1 bar will always be worse than non-ww one bar setup.

Liam12548 wrote: »

I'm confused about how my OP is toxic. I'm just pointing out that the intended drawback of this incredibly stat dense mythic is avoided by werewolf, which is an oversight. You cannot simply give those stats to a werewolf and expect everything to be fine and balanced.

If the drawback to having these absurd stats is that you cannot barswap, you shouldn't be able to use the mythic in a scenario where you've already exchanged your ability to barswap for a host of buffs.

By that logic I should not be allowed to use Gaze of Sithis on a roly-poly NB, because I can ignore the block penalty, by simply making a build that is not using block.

Edit: I think OP may be over-reacting, because of how insane Oakensoul set is. Guaranteed it is gonna get nerfed on PTS. I simply really dont understand why OP is going after WW, as Oakensoul will be used on every 1 - bar build (and they are plenty on them out there). I even think that Oakensoul will actually create some 1-bar builds lol. I would not be worried about WW. Has any one thought about Ball Groups using this set ? Or One-shot gankers ? How DC & PB sets will work if paired with Oakensoul ? That is some serious Yikes... WW pales in comparison with that lol.

You could refer to my above comment, where I address every point you made here.

1. One shot "gankers" - so make it unuseable in stealth? I'm not exactly worried about stronger gank builds when the meta caluurion build already allows for 6+ instances of damage totalling over 25k in one GCD on a tanky target.

2. Ball groups - if there is a ball group present, your abilities do not work to begin with. Realistically when it comes to combat and balance, ball groups are and always have been an outlier. If you're more worried about some min max 12 man using this set than a single werewolf on a properly setup build, you are likely playing in scenarios where balance is irrelevant to begin with due to poor performance.

3. I've already gone on the pts and tested since making the original post, and I can confirm that a properly spec'd wolf with this set is by far the strongest thing 1v1 you'll encounter. I'm not worried about the 1v1 scenario though - I'm worried about the xv1 scenario, and the totally inability to kill these players that will be present if this goes live.

To address your point about there being "plenty" of one bar builds, that is simply not true in pvp. You cannot fit all of the abilities you need to deal damage, heal yourself, buff yourself, and give yourself mobility on one bar. Any one bar non-ww build in pvp is simply a gimmick that has no high level functionality whatsoever.

Your point about gaze of sithis is completley moot. It offers nowhere near the bonuses that oakensoul does, and the loss of block mitigation as a drawback is not even in the same ballpark as the loss of an entire bar (and the ability to barswap cancel things).

Also, as far as the live server goes, a "roly-poly" build with gaze of sithis is better off using one of several other mythic options and retaining the ability to have block mitigation.

jaws343 wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Not if said sets are going to make werewolves (or one bar builds in general) incredibly overpowered. But the fact is, the mythic favors werewolves extremely well and is absurdly stat dense for absolutely zero drawback on a werewolf build. It's more stat dense that Gaze of Sithis ever was and that mythic disabled block mitigation. And they nerfed Gaze far before it ever made it out of PTS. And they definitely need to do the same here.

Not quite. WW with one bar does not have an ultimate, while non-ww 1 bar build has an ultimate - which is huge. WW is not always transformed, and part of the thing that is crucial when some one is playing as WW is to know when to transform and when to cancel transformation, as very often it will determine if you will die or not.

Besides that, if we were to compare build optimized for using only 1 bar vs WW and both of them were using Oakensoul - I think that overall, non-ww wins as it does not have flaws that WW transformation forces upon you. WW will only match other 1-bar setup only when it is transformed, but in human form, ww 1 bar will always be worse than non-ww one bar setup.

Liam12548 wrote: »

I'm confused about how my OP is toxic. I'm just pointing out that the intended drawback of this incredibly stat dense mythic is avoided by werewolf, which is an oversight. You cannot simply give those stats to a werewolf and expect everything to be fine and balanced.

If the drawback to having these absurd stats is that you cannot barswap, you shouldn't be able to use the mythic in a scenario where you've already exchanged your ability to barswap for a host of buffs.

By that logic I should not be allowed to use Gaze of Sithis on a roly-poly NB, because I can ignore the block penalty, by simply making a build that is not using block.

Edit: I think OP may be over-reacting, because of how insane Oakensoul set is. Guaranteed it is gonna get nerfed on PTS. I simply really dont understand why OP is going after WW, as Oakensoul will be used on every 1 - bar builds (and they are plenty on them out there). I even think that Oakensoul will actually create some 1-bar builds lol. I would not be worried about WW. Has any one thought about Ball Groups using this set ? Or One-shot gankers ? How DC & PB sets will work if paired with Oakensoul ? That is some serious Yikes... WW pales in comparison with that lol.

I mean, yes, all of those build types are definitely being thought of in relation to how powerful this mythic can make them. But it is still a valid point that with a werewolf build, whose sole purpose is to stay in werewolf form for as long as possible since that is where all of the power of the build is, will benefit from this set piece more than any other build.

Unless you are going to just lie and say that werewolves are not already going full wolf form during entire BG matches. Because they are. They aren't worried about their normal form, they are full wolf the entire time. Werewolf builds are built entirely around being in wolf form as much as possible because that is where the power lies in those builds, both offensively and defensively. This mythic just amplifies that to ridiculous levels with zero sacrifice.

You have a problem with a player staying in werewolf form for an entire match of a BG? What if I have a problem with stealthing Nightblades with vampire passives and speed, crushing it the whole match. A dragonknight or templar that doesn't take much damage and out-heal everything, but can dish it out. A Sorc with seemingly unlimited shields and resource ...

An optimized WW build that manages to stay in form is your problem? How about having a good WW build and staying in the transformation Ult is the whole point.

....some people just don't like getting beat by a big loud dog lol I get it

Kory wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Not if said sets are going to make werewolves (or one bar builds in general) incredibly overpowered. But the fact is, the mythic favors werewolves extremely well and is absurdly stat dense for absolutely zero drawback on a werewolf build. It's more stat dense that Gaze of Sithis ever was and that mythic disabled block mitigation. And they nerfed Gaze far before it ever made it out of PTS. And they definitely need to do the same here.

Not quite. WW with one bar does not have an ultimate, while non-ww 1 bar build has an ultimate - which is huge. WW is not always transformed, and part of the thing that is crucial when some one is playing as WW is to know when to transform and when to cancel transformation, as very often it will determine if you will die or not.

Besides that, if we were to compare build optimized for using only 1 bar vs WW and both of them were using Oakensoul - I think that overall, non-ww wins as it does not have flaws that WW transformation forces upon you. WW will only match other 1-bar setup only when it is transformed, but in human form, ww 1 bar will always be worse than non-ww one bar setup.

Liam12548 wrote: »

I'm confused about how my OP is toxic. I'm just pointing out that the intended drawback of this incredibly stat dense mythic is avoided by werewolf, which is an oversight. You cannot simply give those stats to a werewolf and expect everything to be fine and balanced.

If the drawback to having these absurd stats is that you cannot barswap, you shouldn't be able to use the mythic in a scenario where you've already exchanged your ability to barswap for a host of buffs.

By that logic I should not be allowed to use Gaze of Sithis on a roly-poly NB, because I can ignore the block penalty, by simply making a build that is not using block.

Edit: I think OP may be over-reacting, because of how insane Oakensoul set is. Guaranteed it is gonna get nerfed on PTS. I simply really dont understand why OP is going after WW, as Oakensoul will be used on every 1 - bar builds (and they are plenty on them out there). I even think that Oakensoul will actually create some 1-bar builds lol. I would not be worried about WW. Has any one thought about Ball Groups using this set ? Or One-shot gankers ? How DC & PB sets will work if paired with Oakensoul ? That is some serious Yikes... WW pales in comparison with that lol.

I mean, yes, all of those build types are definitely being thought of in relation to how powerful this mythic can make them. But it is still a valid point that with a werewolf build, whose sole purpose is to stay in werewolf form for as long as possible since that is where all of the power of the build is, will benefit from this set piece more than any other build.

Unless you are going to just lie and say that werewolves are not already going full wolf form during entire BG matches. Because they are. They aren't worried about their normal form, they are full wolf the entire time. Werewolf builds are built entirely around being in wolf form as much as possible because that is where the power lies in those builds, both offensively and defensively. This mythic just amplifies that to ridiculous levels with zero sacrifice.

You have a problem with a player staying in werewolf form for an entire match of a BG? What if I have a problem with stealthing Nightblades with vampire passives and speed, crushing it the whole match. A dragonknight or templar that doesn't take much damage and out-heal everything, but can dish it out. A Sorc with seemingly unlimited shields and resource ...

An optimized WW build that manages to stay in form is your problem? How about having a good WW build and staying in the transformation Ult is the whole point.

....some people just don't like getting beat by a big loud dog lol I get it

You completely miss my point and then also somehow make my point.

This mythic is meant to have a no bar swap set back to the power it provides. Werewolves completely negate that penalty. It's broken on them because there is no penalty.

None of anything I have said amounts to werewolf hate. I just don't think werewolves need to be superchargerd with an absurd mythic and zero penalty for using it.

CP5 wrote: »

They don't negate the penalty, it's a penalty they already have.

Yes, a penalty incurred already in exchange for 30% max stamina, 15% stamina recovery, 18% WD/SD, perma major ward/resolve, 30% base move speed, 50% more resource return on heavy attacks, and perm minor courage (215 WD/SD) + 10% mitigation + 2 pets that can't die (or whatever the other morph offers).

You did not incur that penalty for all of that AND 450 WD/SD, 5.3k armor, 450 of all 3 regens, 3700 of all 3 stats, and 2000 crit rating.

Not to mention the WW skills themselves are all very good, covering literally everything you need in a pvp scenario with the exception of an AOE, which is not mandatory. As far as pvp builds go, very few are able to achieve everything that a WW can on live currentley.

You can already make an unkillable build on most specs including WW. The problem is making something that can kill things while not being a glass cannon

Werewolf has been in a bad spot compared to most specs for a while now and in need of a rework/buff. I doubt ZOS is going to give WW a major rework so this ring provides a much needed buff to make WW somewhat competitive. Especially with the hybridization changes not benefting the subclass at all leaving it further behind in the dust.

Comparing it to the vamp ult is laughable because it doesn't and is not intended to behave the same. You can see it's meant to be played as its own subclass because other than slotting the ultimate it doesn't affect your build and you gain none of the bonuses or negatives when you are not in form. Keep in mind very few class passives carry over to WW form and almost no weapon passives.

If you're trying to make a competitive PvP build there are some basic aspects that every build needs. WW is missing many of these aspects. The most common gear setup is a 5p Frontbar set + 5p Backbar set + 1p Mythic + 2p Monster set + 1p Trainee. On WW you have to give up either a 5p set, Monster, or Mythic. You also only have 5 skills and no ultimate ability. Compared to the 10 skills and 2 ultimates that everyone else gets. On top of the skills being very expensive in terms of resources so that you pretty much have to run a lot of sustain to have a decent build. This leaves you very limited when deciding on which sets to run.

There are also other major flaws that WW has in PvP like not having a heal over time which limits your offensive window while other classes are running 3-5 different heals keeping them alive while they deal their burst combo. Back before the health regen nerf it wasn't so bad as WW could get a bunch of regen to make up for this. But now in the current healing meta the once huge Burst heal WW had is nothing special compared to what everyone else has access to thanks to the hybridization change. The WW heal one of the most expensive heals in the game, it scales off of secondary stats, so you have to invest into a lot of secondary stat regen and max HP limiting your offensive capability. Other specs heals scale off of their offensive stats so by investing in damage they also gain a lot of survivability.

WW is also missing other major aspects of a competitive build like any kind of snare removal, with mobility being its main form of survivability this is a death sentence against any group who has snares/immobilize. No delayed burst ability or a usefull execute to finish people off. The current "execute" is just a weak DoT that scales up in damage. Hardly useful against everyone being a stage 3 vamp benefiting from 30% damage reduction. No easy access to some very useful buffs like major evasion, mending, minor berserk, etc without sacrificing a 5p set that other specs get simply by slotting useful skills.

Whether it's the constant nerfs they've received the past few patches when the real problem was proc sets not scaling based on offensive stats. The truth is that if you keep losing to werewolves its not because its a good spec. Any player that can beat you on a WW can just as easily make a build on any class that would perform better. The spec is outdated in the current iteration of ESO and is only played for fun.

This ring is a good base for werewolf builds to start from. You can actually invest into other aspects that aren't just sustaining your expensive skills/not being made out of tissue paper and put something together that's competitive with the other powerful specs. Werewolves are not going to start 1shotting you, or tanking and killing entire zergs like some specs already can because of a ring that gives you some stats.

MentalxHammer wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

They don't negate the penalty, it's a penalty they already have.

This is very wrong. Werewolf has been entirely balanced around having one bar that is as strong as two; if you examine the damage and healing coefficients of the skills they drastically outperform regular skills, not to mention they are all heavily stacked to offer important buffs on top of these extremely high coefficients.

The werewolf bar is no where near as strong as 2. You get 3 major buffs, savagery, brutality, and resolve. Easily accessed on all classes. Most skills in this game do more than one thing so not sure where youre going with this.

Yarcanine wrote: »

MentalxHammer wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

They don't negate the penalty, it's a penalty they already have.

This is very wrong. Werewolf has been entirely balanced around having one bar that is as strong as two; if you examine the damage and healing coefficients of the skills they drastically outperform regular skills, not to mention they are all heavily stacked to offer important buffs on top of these extremely high coefficients.

The werewolf bar is no where near as strong as 2. You get 3 major buffs, savagery, brutality, and resolve. Easily accessed on all classes. Most skills in this game do more than one thing so not sure where youre going with this.

But let's look at the skills themselves

They have a gapcloser that has a dot tied to it which has up to 450% execute scaling starting from 100% hp. Then the morphs allow for either bonus WD/SD on hit (100 per target) or mag/stam return and transformation extension on hit.

They have one of the strongest burst heals in the game which scales with max health. Casting this at full hp gives you 3k stamina back, a choice of either bonus stam regen or major berserk on full hp cast, AND you get major brutality just for having it on your bar.

You have an AOE HARD CC, which ALSO sets everyone off balance AND gives major savagery just for being slotted. The better morph of this skill also applies AOE major breach & minor maim to every target hit.

Howl of agony is one of the strongest single target spammables in the game, has a 10m range, with a 25% damage modifier just for your target facing you or being CCd. 25% is massive - the equivalent of major + minor berserk AND major + minor vulnerability combined (because of the way berserk scaling vs vuln scaling works in terms of order is calculations).

Finally, you get an AOE disease damage spammable/10 second dot that also applies minor defile every cast, with the morph options being additional MAJOR defile or healing for 100% of any damage the ability does.

"Where he was going" was to point out the fact that the skills are already designed to be loaded with more effects than 95% of the normal abilities in the game. The scaling on the numbers themselves reflects this too. This is done because of the one bar limitation, which again is the drawback you are accepting in exchange for the ridiculously strong passives from my previous comment and the ridiculously strong abilities from this comment. Giving these builds access to a mythic as stat dense as an entire 5/5/2 build will make them insanely overpowered.

So many people in this thread are claiming that WW isn't good, or that it isn't effective enough and needs something like this ring. Just read the passives, and read the abilities. Literally nothing in the game is as overloaded as WW is (apart from maybe the live version of magDK, with broken combustion/burning embers/molten whip/corrosive/free ash cloud and mist form).

Liam12548 wrote: »

Yarcanine wrote: »

MentalxHammer wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

They don't negate the penalty, it's a penalty they already have.

This is very wrong. Werewolf has been entirely balanced around having one bar that is as strong as two; if you examine the damage and healing coefficients of the skills they drastically outperform regular skills, not to mention they are all heavily stacked to offer important buffs on top of these extremely high coefficients.

The werewolf bar is no where near as strong as 2. You get 3 major buffs, savagery, brutality, and resolve. Easily accessed on all classes. Most skills in this game do more than one thing so not sure where youre going with this.

But let's look at the skills themselves

They have a gapcloser that has a dot tied to it which has up to 450% execute scaling starting from 100% hp. Then the morphs allow for either bonus WD/SD on hit (100 per target) or mag/stam return and transformation extension on hit.

They have one of the strongest burst heals in the game which scales with max health. Casting this at full hp gives you 3k stamina back, a choice of either bonus stam regen or major berserk on full hp cast, AND you get major brutality just for having it on your bar.

You have an AOE HARD CC, which ALSO sets everyone off balance AND gives major savagery just for being slotted. The better morph of this skill also applies AOE major breach & minor maim to every target hit.

Howl of agony is one of the strongest single target spammables in the game, has a 10m range, with a 25% damage modifier just for your target facing you or being CCd. 25% is massive - the equivalent of major + minor berserk AND major + minor vulnerability combined (because of the way berserk scaling vs vuln scaling works in terms of order is calculations).

Finally, you get an AOE disease damage spammable/10 second dot that also applies minor defile every cast, with the morph options being additional MAJOR defile or healing for 100% of any damage the ability does.

"Where he was going" was to point out the fact that the skills are already designed to be loaded with more effects than 95% of the normal abilities in the game. The scaling on the numbers themselves reflects this too. This is done because of the one bar limitation, which again is the drawback you are accepting in exchange for the ridiculously strong passives from my previous comment and the ridiculously strong abilities from this comment. Giving these builds access to a mythic as stat dense as an entire 5/5/2 build will make them insanely overpowered.

So many people in this thread are claiming that WW isn't good, or that it isn't effective enough and needs something like this ring. Just read the passives, and read the abilities. Literally nothing in the game is as overloaded as WW is (apart from maybe the live version of magDK, with broken combustion/burning embers/molten whip/corrosive/free ash cloud and mist form).

You just described what the abilities do, congrats. Means very little unless you compare it to how other spec's abilities stack up. There are abilities in ESO that do 3-4 things, its not exclusive to werewolf. I've addressed some of the specific WW abilities in my previous comment. My point is not that WW abilities are bad, but they are no where near overpowered.

I wouldn't recommend running something like this because there are simply better ways to build a StamCro, but its more to prove a point. Here is a build that can do everything a werewolf can do but better and more

+ Crit/Stam/Immovable or Health pot
Has access to every buff, debuff, disable, ability that WW does but also has access to a proper execute, delayed burst damage, a burst heal and a HoT, Major Evasion, snare/immobilize removal, all the class/guild passives AND weapon passives, 2 Ultimates, does more damage, and can still run a 5/5/2/1/1 gear set up. You can do this on virtually every class

Werewolf is simply a meme spec