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Price fixing in guild traders
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Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
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(This is why I don't pay much attention to those posters who say "this is just the market functioning normally" -- yes it is, but that is not synonymous with a *competitive* market and for this reason in the real world antitrust law exists.)
In a few countries where people need to be helped, because they cannot control themselves - this is not a global universal truth, it is just a thing in the western world - most countries do not have such laws at all. And don't forget that they are as well not used in an equal manner in the western world, there is lobbying and corruption. Those rules are just valid for those not having enough power to lobby and bribe.Edited by Lysette on April 5, 2022 2:13PM1 -
Northwold✭✭✭✭✭
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(This is why I don't pay much attention to those posters who say "this is just the market functioning normally" -- yes it is, but that is not synonymous with a *competitive* market and for this reason in the real world antitrust law exists.)
In a few countries where people need to be helped, because they cannot control themselves - this is not a global universal truth, it is just a thing in the western world - most countries do not have such laws at all.
There are VERY few countries in the world of any size that do not have some form of competition law (well over half of all the countries in the world have competition law), so I don't know where you got that from but it's not quite right.Edited by Northwold on April 5, 2022 2:16PM0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
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(This is why I don't pay much attention to those posters who say "this is just the market functioning normally" -- yes it is, but that is not synonymous with a *competitive* market and for this reason in the real world antitrust law exists.)
In a few countries where people need to be helped, because they cannot control themselves - this is not a global universal truth, it is just a thing in the western world - most countries do not have such laws at all.
There are VERY few countries in the world of any size that do not have some form of competition law (well over half of all the countries in the world have competition law), so I don't know where you got that from but it's not quite right.
it is worth nothing if it is just on paper - I lived in south africa and have seen how corrupt it is and that the law is pretty much irrelevant. Having that on paper does not mean that these laws are actually used - if you can just bribe and threaten. These countries might have nice laws, but the reality is, they are worth nothing - they cannot even protect their people from crime and even less from corrupt businesses or trusts or mafia like organizations - that is the truth in a bunch of countries.0 -
Northwold✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
(This is why I don't pay much attention to those posters who say "this is just the market functioning normally" -- yes it is, but that is not synonymous with a *competitive* market and for this reason in the real world antitrust law exists.)
In a few countries where people need to be helped, because they cannot control themselves - this is not a global universal truth, it is just a thing in the western world - most countries do not have such laws at all.
There are VERY few countries in the world of any size that do not have some form of competition law (well over half of all the countries in the world have competition law), so I don't know where you got that from but it's not quite right.
it is worth nothing if it is just on paper - I lived in south africa and have seen how corrupt it is and that the law is pretty much irrelevant. Having that on paper does not mean that these laws are actually used - if you can just bribe and threaten. These countries might have nice laws, but the reality is, they are worth nothing - they cannot even protect their people from crime and even less from corrupt businesses or trusts or mafia like organizations - that is the truth in a bunch of countries.
We'll get modded away if we carry on but just to say it's an interesting topic and the drag corruption creates on economies and the competitive functioning of markets is a key focus of organisations like the OECD (and on corruption specifically, of Transparency International).Edited by Northwold on April 5, 2022 2:28PM0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
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(This is why I don't pay much attention to those posters who say "this is just the market functioning normally" -- yes it is, but that is not synonymous with a *competitive* market and for this reason in the real world antitrust law exists.)
In a few countries where people need to be helped, because they cannot control themselves - this is not a global universal truth, it is just a thing in the western world - most countries do not have such laws at all.
There are VERY few countries in the world of any size that do not have some form of competition law (well over half of all the countries in the world have competition law), so I don't know where you got that from but it's not quite right.
it is worth nothing if it is just on paper - I lived in south africa and have seen how corrupt it is and that the law is pretty much irrelevant. Having that on paper does not mean that these laws are actually used - if you can just bribe and threaten. These countries might have nice laws, but the reality is, they are worth nothing - they cannot even protect their people from crime and even less from corrupt businesses or trusts or mafia like organizations - that is the truth in a bunch of countries.
We'll get modded away if we carry on but just to say it's an interesting topic and the drag corruption creates on economies and the competitive functioning of markets is a key focus of organisations like the OECD (and on corruption specifically, of Transparency International).
well, you are right, server is back up again, so let's play instead.1 -
Xebov✭✭✭✭✭
✭Gaeliannas wrote: »Is it possible to revamp how guild traders work to reduce a single guild's ability to buy up all of a certain item, only to sell at 100,000g, creating a monopoly on the item. This has happened with past events, but I noticed it instantly with the Jester's Festival. As I was looking to buy the memento fragments, referencing Tamriel Trade Center, I could see a single player or a group of players buying up every fair priced item and then instantly posting it for 100,000g upwards to 400,000g. This amounts to price fixing and really takes the fun away from the game.
So to make this a bit more clear.
You use a website that relies on players uploading data from guild traders they came accross that has no live data or any other data source available. In this situation you see a number of players that have a number of items you seek at a higher price. That also likely upload this data to make it visible.
From that situation you deduct that players bought all the cheap stuff and formed a monopoly.
You dont know how recent or accurate or complete the data you saw is. You also dont know if the cheap items where bought by players that need them, like you. You also dont know how the players offering the items got them.
You ignore all of these possibilities because "bad players forming a monopoly so you have to pay more" fits your stance best?
What they said does happen, during events the flippers or the wannabe flippers come out of the woodwork and anything having to do with event writs or achievements goes through the roof, that is undeniable.
That said, you are also correct, there are many things happening at once that cause a player to not be able to always buy the lowest priced item, pretty much all of which have been spelled out in this thread.
1. Flippers flipping good deals, never gonna stop.
2. Market cornering, an advanced flipping method done by those who can afford to risk the gold.
3. Purchases of opportunity, someone just spotted a good deal and bought it, who doesn't normally flip.
4. Someone simply bought it, like you (or whomever), they wanted that item and searched for the best deals.
5. Any of the above done by those those in the same guild as the trader, as they can be notified instantly upon a item getting listed and will always beat you to it since any banker works for them.
6. Someone did a bait & switch by listing it low, then pulled and relisted it at a higher price.
7. The TTC price is borked, and the item doesn't exist anywhere at that price because the market changed.
I know that flipping happens, especially in such situations. I also know that many discussions about such topics leave out possibilities or have the issue that players dont fully understand the tools they are using.0 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Some people still just don't understand the basic concepts of market economics, location, and most importantly, the value of time. There seems to be this false impression of players sitting with TTC feeding them constantly with every cheap price and the items just magically appearing in their inbox and gold automatically deducted. In reality, flipping efficiently takes a lot of research and physical time and effort to look up deals and also manually go around to different traders all over Tamriel.
But this doesn't really contribute anything to the debate of "is it actually desirable for the health of the game overall"? Frankly, I don't care how much time one person spends on X if it messes up the game for everyone else. This isn't Atlas Shrugged: the MMO.
@Northwold
You may not care how much time and effort someone put into obtaining something but it is their right to list the item for whatever price they choose. More importantly, it only sells for a price another player is willing to pay for it which is what brings balance to the market. If items are selling for more than someone wants to pay they have the same opportunity to farm the items themselves.
As such no one is messing up anyone else's game.7 -
Inaya✭✭✭✭✭
✭Some people still just don't understand the basic concepts of market economics, location, and most importantly, the value of time. There seems to be this false impression of players sitting with TTC feeding them constantly with every cheap price and the items just magically appearing in their inbox and gold automatically deducted. In reality, flipping efficiently takes a lot of research and physical time and effort to look up deals and also manually go around to different traders all over Tamriel.
But this doesn't really contribute anything to the debate of "is it actually desirable for the health of the game overall"? Frankly, I don't care how much time one person spends on X if it messes up the game for everyone else. This isn't Atlas Shrugged: the MMO.
YOU may not value my time but I do. Why is it so hard for people to understand. If you don't like the price, farm. If you don't want to farm, pay the market value. It's not rocket science.8 -
Gaeliannas✭✭✭✭✭Gaeliannas wrote: »Is it possible to revamp how guild traders work to reduce a single guild's ability to buy up all of a certain item, only to sell at 100,000g, creating a monopoly on the item. This has happened with past events, but I noticed it instantly with the Jester's Festival. As I was looking to buy the memento fragments, referencing Tamriel Trade Center, I could see a single player or a group of players buying up every fair priced item and then instantly posting it for 100,000g upwards to 400,000g. This amounts to price fixing and really takes the fun away from the game.
So to make this a bit more clear.
You use a website that relies on players uploading data from guild traders they came accross that has no live data or any other data source available. In this situation you see a number of players that have a number of items you seek at a higher price. That also likely upload this data to make it visible.
From that situation you deduct that players bought all the cheap stuff and formed a monopoly.
You dont know how recent or accurate or complete the data you saw is. You also dont know if the cheap items where bought by players that need them, like you. You also dont know how the players offering the items got them.
You ignore all of these possibilities because "bad players forming a monopoly so you have to pay more" fits your stance best?
What they said does happen, during events the flippers or the wannabe flippers come out of the woodwork and anything having to do with event writs or achievements goes through the roof, that is undeniable.
That said, you are also correct, there are many things happening at once that cause a player to not be able to always buy the lowest priced item, pretty much all of which have been spelled out in this thread.
1. Flippers flipping good deals, never gonna stop.
2. Market cornering, an advanced flipping method done by those who can afford to risk the gold.
3. Purchases of opportunity, someone just spotted a good deal and bought it, who doesn't normally flip.
4. Someone simply bought it, like you (or whomever), they wanted that item and searched for the best deals.
5. Any of the above done by those those in the same guild as the trader, as they can be notified instantly upon a item getting listed and will always beat you to it since any banker works for them.
6. Someone did a bait & switch by listing it low, then pulled and relisted it at a higher price.
7. The TTC price is borked, and the item doesn't exist anywhere at that price because the market changed.
I know that flipping happens, especially in such situations. I also know that many discussions about such topics leave out possibilities or have the issue that players dont fully understand the tools they are using.
Yes, in just this thread, the amount of misinformation on how TTC (and other 3rd party tools) work is amazing. Apparently some folks are even under the impression that "guilds" also have control over what gets listed, for how much, and when it appears on traders. Nothing could be farther from the truth, guilds basically have control over nothing in this game, other than bidding on traders and joining/booting members. As you can tell, it kind of bugs me when people blame "guilds" for things, when it is always individual players.2 -
Marginis✭✭✭✭✭Gaeliannas wrote: »Gaeliannas wrote: »Is it possible to revamp how guild traders work to reduce a single guild's ability to buy up all of a certain item, only to sell at 100,000g, creating a monopoly on the item. This has happened with past events, but I noticed it instantly with the Jester's Festival. As I was looking to buy the memento fragments, referencing Tamriel Trade Center, I could see a single player or a group of players buying up every fair priced item and then instantly posting it for 100,000g upwards to 400,000g. This amounts to price fixing and really takes the fun away from the game.
So to make this a bit more clear.
You use a website that relies on players uploading data from guild traders they came accross that has no live data or any other data source available. In this situation you see a number of players that have a number of items you seek at a higher price. That also likely upload this data to make it visible.
From that situation you deduct that players bought all the cheap stuff and formed a monopoly.
You dont know how recent or accurate or complete the data you saw is. You also dont know if the cheap items where bought by players that need them, like you. You also dont know how the players offering the items got them.
You ignore all of these possibilities because "bad players forming a monopoly so you have to pay more" fits your stance best?
What they said does happen, during events the flippers or the wannabe flippers come out of the woodwork and anything having to do with event writs or achievements goes through the roof, that is undeniable.
That said, you are also correct, there are many things happening at once that cause a player to not be able to always buy the lowest priced item, pretty much all of which have been spelled out in this thread.
1. Flippers flipping good deals, never gonna stop.
2. Market cornering, an advanced flipping method done by those who can afford to risk the gold.
3. Purchases of opportunity, someone just spotted a good deal and bought it, who doesn't normally flip.
4. Someone simply bought it, like you (or whomever), they wanted that item and searched for the best deals.
5. Any of the above done by those those in the same guild as the trader, as they can be notified instantly upon a item getting listed and will always beat you to it since any banker works for them.
6. Someone did a bait & switch by listing it low, then pulled and relisted it at a higher price.
7. The TTC price is borked, and the item doesn't exist anywhere at that price because the market changed.
I know that flipping happens, especially in such situations. I also know that many discussions about such topics leave out possibilities or have the issue that players dont fully understand the tools they are using.
Yes, in just this thread, the amount of misinformation on how TTC (and other 3rd party tools) work is amazing. Apparently some folks are even under the impression that "guilds" also have control over what gets listed, for how much, and when it appears on traders. Nothing could be farther from the truth, guilds basically have control over nothing in this game, other than bidding on traders and joining/booting members. As you can tell, it kind of bugs me when people blame "guilds" for things, when it is always individual players.
To be fair, many guilds *attempt* to control listed prices in their guild, or at least have rules regulating as such, and there are a few notable examples in my experience of guilds of cross-guild collaboration in terms of trying to set prices... which has had some limited effect.@Marginis on PC, Senpai Fluffy on Xbox, Founder of Magicka. Also known as Kha'jiri, The Night Mother, Ma'iq, Jane Shepard, Damia, Kintyra, Zoor Do Kest, You, and a few others.1 -
hafgood✭✭✭✭✭
✭It makes me laugh when people say oh everyone has followed the price on TTC so it's responsible for price rises.
I play on console so don't use TTC and I bey a lot of PC players don't use it either.
You know how we price stuff? We look to see what others are selling the items for at the main traders. It's not hard to do, doesn't take long and has no reliance on TTC
And you know what? A lot of prices are similar because others have done the same. When things don't sell we see prices come down. If they see quickly then the seller may have underpriced the item, if it takes a few days and sells its about right.
But with anything, if its too expensive don't buy it. I' short a few motifs, can afford to pay whatever they cost but I choose to set a price I'm willing to pay and stick to that. If others want to pay high prices thats on them. Same with anything else, if it doesn't suit my budget I don't buy it. I either farm it or go without. I'm short a few style pages from events, I'll get them next time, or the time after, there is no rush. Or of I really want them I buy them.5 -
Jpk0012✭✭✭✭Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »You need to be quicker than the flippers
I know it isn't fun but it's all about bein lucky or quick.
I had this issue with certain motif few months back.
One guy was selling the hat page from said motif for 700k when AVG price was like 150k.
One morning I checked TTC and saw it listed for 90k, did rush in game to the trader and got the page.
Based off my experience people are running scripts. They are buying stuff as soon as its on the market. You can test this by putting up a cheap item It will be gone in less than 5 minutes. I am sure its the same people who are botting in the newbie areas.
Sorry. this is Xbox. I know on PC they have mods.Edited by Jpk0012 on April 6, 2022 12:35AM0 -
Gaeliannas✭✭✭✭✭Gaeliannas wrote: »Gaeliannas wrote: »Is it possible to revamp how guild traders work to reduce a single guild's ability to buy up all of a certain item, only to sell at 100,000g, creating a monopoly on the item. This has happened with past events, but I noticed it instantly with the Jester's Festival. As I was looking to buy the memento fragments, referencing Tamriel Trade Center, I could see a single player or a group of players buying up every fair priced item and then instantly posting it for 100,000g upwards to 400,000g. This amounts to price fixing and really takes the fun away from the game.
So to make this a bit more clear.
You use a website that relies on players uploading data from guild traders they came accross that has no live data or any other data source available. In this situation you see a number of players that have a number of items you seek at a higher price. That also likely upload this data to make it visible.
From that situation you deduct that players bought all the cheap stuff and formed a monopoly.
You dont know how recent or accurate or complete the data you saw is. You also dont know if the cheap items where bought by players that need them, like you. You also dont know how the players offering the items got them.
You ignore all of these possibilities because "bad players forming a monopoly so you have to pay more" fits your stance best?
What they said does happen, during events the flippers or the wannabe flippers come out of the woodwork and anything having to do with event writs or achievements goes through the roof, that is undeniable.
That said, you are also correct, there are many things happening at once that cause a player to not be able to always buy the lowest priced item, pretty much all of which have been spelled out in this thread.
1. Flippers flipping good deals, never gonna stop.
2. Market cornering, an advanced flipping method done by those who can afford to risk the gold.
3. Purchases of opportunity, someone just spotted a good deal and bought it, who doesn't normally flip.
4. Someone simply bought it, like you (or whomever), they wanted that item and searched for the best deals.
5. Any of the above done by those those in the same guild as the trader, as they can be notified instantly upon a item getting listed and will always beat you to it since any banker works for them.
6. Someone did a bait & switch by listing it low, then pulled and relisted it at a higher price.
7. The TTC price is borked, and the item doesn't exist anywhere at that price because the market changed.
I know that flipping happens, especially in such situations. I also know that many discussions about such topics leave out possibilities or have the issue that players dont fully understand the tools they are using.
Yes, in just this thread, the amount of misinformation on how TTC (and other 3rd party tools) work is amazing. Apparently some folks are even under the impression that "guilds" also have control over what gets listed, for how much, and when it appears on traders. Nothing could be farther from the truth, guilds basically have control over nothing in this game, other than bidding on traders and joining/booting members. As you can tell, it kind of bugs me when people blame "guilds" for things, when it is always individual players.
To be fair, many guilds *attempt* to control listed prices in their guild, or at least have rules regulating as such, and there are a few notable examples in my experience of guilds of cross-guild collaboration in terms of trying to set prices... which has had some limited effect.
Hmm, I have been in many trade guilds over the years and only encountered that once, in a wanna-be start-up trade guild that failed miserably in short order due to exactly that, the GM trying to tell people what to sell and for how much. Keep in mind most trade guilds are 500 players, many having sister or sub guilds as well, so now you are talking about someone controlling 500-1500 individual players? Doubtful most if any, would listen to "managements desires", I know I never would.
At best, some small sub group of individual players got together and tried to price fix or whatever and the GM may or may not have even been involved. The fact they happened to be in the same guild, well that's where you meet other like minded folks, but still really has nothing to do with the guild itself, those same folks could easily split up into other guilds or meet on a random Discord and do the same thing. Guilds are 100% powerless in ESO.3 -
Northwold✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Some people still just don't understand the basic concepts of market economics, location, and most importantly, the value of time. There seems to be this false impression of players sitting with TTC feeding them constantly with every cheap price and the items just magically appearing in their inbox and gold automatically deducted. In reality, flipping efficiently takes a lot of research and physical time and effort to look up deals and also manually go around to different traders all over Tamriel.
But this doesn't really contribute anything to the debate of "is it actually desirable for the health of the game overall"? Frankly, I don't care how much time one person spends on X if it messes up the game for everyone else. This isn't Atlas Shrugged: the MMO.
YOU may not value my time but I do. Why is it so hard for people to understand. If you don't like the price, farm. If you don't want to farm, pay the market value. It's not rocket science.
The second part of the sentence that you choose to ignore exists for a reason. Apparently that is equally hard for people to understand.Edited by Northwold on April 6, 2022 1:07AM0 -
Gaeliannas✭✭✭✭✭Some people still just don't understand the basic concepts of market economics, location, and most importantly, the value of time. There seems to be this false impression of players sitting with TTC feeding them constantly with every cheap price and the items just magically appearing in their inbox and gold automatically deducted. In reality, flipping efficiently takes a lot of research and physical time and effort to look up deals and also manually go around to different traders all over Tamriel.
But this doesn't really contribute anything to the debate of "is it actually desirable for the health of the game overall"? Frankly, I don't care how much time one person spends on X if it messes up the game for everyone else. This isn't Atlas Shrugged: the MMO.
YOU may not value my time but I do. Why is it so hard for people to understand. If you don't like the price, farm. If you don't want to farm, pay the market value. It's not rocket science.
The second part of the sentence that you choose to ignore exists for a reason. Apparently that is equally hard for people to understand.
Not really, most people can't afford a lot of things, both in game and out. Unlike real life though, in a game if someone can afford it, everyone can. If they can't, that was a personal choice they made to avoid making enough gold to do so. Sorry if my being able to afford or have things bothers others, I put in the time, learned the systems and tend to be a min-maxer, so I succeed in game. If someone wants to casually bebop around doing whatever, they shouldn't expect the nice things and be content with their lot in life.
Unlike RL, characters in game are not going to die of starvation or exposure, so there is really no need for the "government" to step in and correct the situation.3 -
Arunei✭✭✭✭✭
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You have proof for this? Because again this is something I see people make claims of every so often without providing any sort of proof of the fact. I'm in one of the big PC NA trading guilds, and the only way they control what people list is with a rule that you can't sell something for less than 1k. Literally that's it, and the rule only exists so peoples' slots aren't being taken up by literal junk. I've never heard of any actual guilds that try to control what prices their members set things at, or collaborating with other guilds to raise prices.Gaeliannas wrote: »Gaeliannas wrote: »Is it possible to revamp how guild traders work to reduce a single guild's ability to buy up all of a certain item, only to sell at 100,000g, creating a monopoly on the item. This has happened with past events, but I noticed it instantly with the Jester's Festival. As I was looking to buy the memento fragments, referencing Tamriel Trade Center, I could see a single player or a group of players buying up every fair priced item and then instantly posting it for 100,000g upwards to 400,000g. This amounts to price fixing and really takes the fun away from the game.
So to make this a bit more clear.
You use a website that relies on players uploading data from guild traders they came accross that has no live data or any other data source available. In this situation you see a number of players that have a number of items you seek at a higher price. That also likely upload this data to make it visible.
From that situation you deduct that players bought all the cheap stuff and formed a monopoly.
You dont know how recent or accurate or complete the data you saw is. You also dont know if the cheap items where bought by players that need them, like you. You also dont know how the players offering the items got them.
You ignore all of these possibilities because "bad players forming a monopoly so you have to pay more" fits your stance best?
What they said does happen, during events the flippers or the wannabe flippers come out of the woodwork and anything having to do with event writs or achievements goes through the roof, that is undeniable.
That said, you are also correct, there are many things happening at once that cause a player to not be able to always buy the lowest priced item, pretty much all of which have been spelled out in this thread.
1. Flippers flipping good deals, never gonna stop.
2. Market cornering, an advanced flipping method done by those who can afford to risk the gold.
3. Purchases of opportunity, someone just spotted a good deal and bought it, who doesn't normally flip.
4. Someone simply bought it, like you (or whomever), they wanted that item and searched for the best deals.
5. Any of the above done by those those in the same guild as the trader, as they can be notified instantly upon a item getting listed and will always beat you to it since any banker works for them.
6. Someone did a bait & switch by listing it low, then pulled and relisted it at a higher price.
7. The TTC price is borked, and the item doesn't exist anywhere at that price because the market changed.
I know that flipping happens, especially in such situations. I also know that many discussions about such topics leave out possibilities or have the issue that players dont fully understand the tools they are using.
Yes, in just this thread, the amount of misinformation on how TTC (and other 3rd party tools) work is amazing. Apparently some folks are even under the impression that "guilds" also have control over what gets listed, for how much, and when it appears on traders. Nothing could be farther from the truth, guilds basically have control over nothing in this game, other than bidding on traders and joining/booting members. As you can tell, it kind of bugs me when people blame "guilds" for things, when it is always individual players.
To be fair, many guilds *attempt* to control listed prices in their guild, or at least have rules regulating as such, and there are a few notable examples in my experience of guilds of cross-guild collaboration in terms of trying to set prices... which has had some limited effect.
You DO realize that at any given moment there are thousands and thousands of people playing, and any number of them could be browsing trade guilds, right? There are literally no scripts telling people when and where things are listed the second they're up, it's just the fact that there are people always checking guild stores. Some use TTC, some don't. But cheaper items selling faster isn't because of people using scripts.Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »You need to be quicker than the flippers
I know it isn't fun but it's all about bein lucky or quick.
I had this issue with certain motif few months back.
One guy was selling the hat page from said motif for 700k when AVG price was like 150k.
One morning I checked TTC and saw it listed for 90k, did rush in game to the trader and got the page.
Based off my experience people are running scripts. They are buying stuff as soon as its on the market. You can test this by putting up a cheap item It will be gone in less than 5 minutes. I am sure its the same people who are botting in the newbie areas.
Sorry. this is Xbox. I know on PC they have mods.
It's called undercutting, where people purposefully price something below market average so it sells faster. That is literally the entire point of undercutting, to sell your things FASTER. I undercut everything I sell because that's how I make sure my stuff sells. When it's gone within minutes that's not because of any script, it's because someone was checking the store soon after I posted the item(s) and purchased it/them. And no, things don't sell that fast all the time. I've had stacks of alchemy mats (Columbine or Powdered Mother of Pearl, for example) or 8 golden tempers sit for hours sometimes, despite being priced a good 5-20k (depending on what it is I'm selling) cheaper than average. Because again, it's not scripts, it's just whenever someone who wants what I'm selling checks the guild trader for it.
Not trying to be rude or anything but it really is frustrating to see people making baseless claims like this.
Edited by Arunei on April 6, 2022 2:11AMPC-NA | Been around since closed beta
Avid RPer. Hit me up in-game @Ras_Lei if you're interested in getting together for some arr-pee shenanigans!
RP Characters:
Sarah Lacroix: Breton Vampire who really really REALLY likes likes learning Magick and also her Altmer husbando
Kaalhil Swiftstrike: Tiny shapeshifting monster hunter Bosmeri lady with enough sass to kill a dragon or ten
Gwendolyn Jenelle: Friendly healer with a coffee addiction and her own medical practice
Krisiel: Literally crazy Werewolf, no like legit insane. She nuts
Kiju Veran: Ex-Fighters Guild Suthay who likes to punch things and is also a spy and ALSO a Werewolf
Niralae Elsinal: Young Altmeri woman with way too much Magicka and Vampire husbando
Slondor: TESified Slenderman, except lazier and has more of a thing for deals than Clavicus Vile does
Marius Vastino: Sarah's Imperial apathetic sire who likes to monologue
Lirawyn Calatare: Traveling performer and bard who's 101% vanilla bean
Soliril Larethian: Blind alchemist who uses animals to see and brews plagues in his spare time5 -
RisenEclipse✭✭✭✭✭I don't buy things if they're ridiculously priced. The joke poppers pieces for this event have gotten ridiculous. Before the event they'd sell for 1K - 5K, now they're shooting upward to 1mil. I'm not paying that much for a stupid momento... even if it is tied to an achievement. Just don't buy over priced items and they'll be forced to drop the prices to sell them.Edited by RisenEclipse on April 6, 2022 2:10AM1 -
Gaeliannas✭✭✭✭✭RisenEclipse wrote: »I don't buy things if they're ridiculously priced. The joke poppers pieces for this event have gotten ridiculous. Before the event they'd sell for 1K - 5K, now they're shooting upward to 1mil. I'm not paying that much for a stupid momento... even if it is tied to an achievement. Just don't buy over priced items and they'll be forced to drop the prices to sell them.
Or they all sell out because enough players can afford them, and others just missed out. Anyone that has been following the economy and wealth in this game is well aware, that having 10, 20, 50 million gold is no longer an elite thing, a TON of players have that much gold and can buy whatever tickles their fancy.
Personally I am against the massive inflation happening and feel the game needs more real gold sinks to combat it. But until that happens, the market will bare what it bares and the rich will get richer, the poor will get poorer, and threads like this will keep popping up over and over.
And by gold sinks, I mean NPC's that sell high priced items players desire and will buy. Unfortunately, the crown store has a stranglehold on those items, so it is doubtful we will ever see them in game. I would love it if I could drop X gold for a 150% XP buff on a alt, or train my mount to full for gold... but even though that would stabilize the economy in game, it will never happen, because it cuts into the monetization of it.2 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭But is there even an inflation?- A few highly in demand items soar, yes, but I cannot see that overall happening. Are basic crafting materials soaring - no, they don't. are furniture, crafting plans and the like soaring?- as well not. If there is an inflation it is not out of bound and will happen because that is just how the economy works. If everyone wants more for what he has acquired than the last one, then prices will and have to go up. And it doesn't really matter for those keeping their wealth mainly in asset, for them nothing is changing - just those going for keeping their wealth in gold, will be bitten by inflation.
It is not unlike in real life - people keeping their money on accounts, get like 1.5-2% or whatever, I have no real idea what they get, because I think in shareholder value and there 18% tax-free is more like it. But people deem that to be risky, while it is in fact just not. With 2% it takes 35-36 years for it to double in value, with 18% on the other side, that takes 4 years. So the guy going for the "safe" 2% has in 36 years just doubled his nominal value, whereas the guy going for shareholder value got 2^9 times his original investment - that is 256 times more than the normal guy made. That is why poor people stay poor and the others will get richer and richer - they take "risks" which are in fact none. Because if shareholder value earns nothing anymore, no one will - because the others are employed by them.Edited by Lysette on April 6, 2022 11:15AM0 -
Jayman1000✭✭✭✭✭
✭Is it possible to revamp how guild traders work to reduce a single guild's ability to buy up all of a certain item, only to sell at 100,000g, creating a monopoly on the item. This has happened with past events, but I noticed it instantly with the Jester's Festival. As I was looking to buy the memento fragments, referencing Tamriel Trade Center, I could see a single player or a group of players buying up every fair priced item and then instantly posting it for 100,000g upwards to 400,000g. This amounts to price fixing and really takes the fun away from the game.
There just isn't enough items to satisfy the demand, and a number of sellers have no idea how small the supply is and how high the demand is, so they just post their items at ridiculously low prices when they could, as you so clearly demonstrated, have sold those items for hundreds of thousands of gold. Of course someone will take advantage of this and repost for profit. If the original sellers had posted at a price far closer reflecting the actual ratio between supply and demand, the flippers wouldn't be buying up and reposting as there would be little to no profit.
You can't do anything about this: the fact is that supply is low and demand is high, no matter what the price of items is going to reflect that, and if it doesnt it wont take many minutes before someone corrects that (and makes a ton of profit in the process).Edited by Jayman1000 on April 6, 2022 11:16AM1 -
Arunei✭✭✭✭✭
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And yet again I ask, proof? Where's the proof that "a ton of people" have this much gold? People keep making claims and then offer nothing to actually back up said claims. How is anyone "following the economy" going to know how much gold a lot of people have? The fact that a number of people have that much doesn't mean a large number do, and prices going up over the years also doesn't mean everyone suddenly has millions of gold. It means supply has either stayed or become low compared to demand, and as more people join the game the price reflects that fewer people are supplying than demanding.Gaeliannas wrote: »RisenEclipse wrote: »I don't buy things if they're ridiculously priced. The joke poppers pieces for this event have gotten ridiculous. Before the event they'd sell for 1K - 5K, now they're shooting upward to 1mil. I'm not paying that much for a stupid momento... even if it is tied to an achievement. Just don't buy over priced items and they'll be forced to drop the prices to sell them.
Or they all sell out because enough players can afford them, and others just missed out. Anyone that has been following the economy and wealth in this game is well aware, that having 10, 20, 50 million gold is no longer an elite thing, a TON of players have that much gold and can buy whatever tickles their fancy.
The Party Popper pieces are a very good example. They sold for so little in the past because they dropped fairly often. Now they're rare, so people are pricing them much higher. People aren't spending close to 1m on pieces because they abruptly all have millions to spend, it's because they might have one or two million saved up and just blew through all their gold.
This logic makes no sense. What's the difference if someone sells at "normal" price as opposed to someone buying an undercut item and selling it for "normal" price? How is the flipper the bad guy and not the seller if both price the item the same? There is literally no difference so trying to use this argument to paint flippers in a bad light falls flat on its face.Jayman1000 wrote: »Is it possible to revamp how guild traders work to reduce a single guild's ability to buy up all of a certain item, only to sell at 100,000g, creating a monopoly on the item. This has happened with past events, but I noticed it instantly with the Jester's Festival. As I was looking to buy the memento fragments, referencing Tamriel Trade Center, I could see a single player or a group of players buying up every fair priced item and then instantly posting it for 100,000g upwards to 400,000g. This amounts to price fixing and really takes the fun away from the game.
There just isn't enough items to satisfy the demand, and a number of sellers have no idea how small the supply is and how high the demand is, so they just post their items at ridiculously low prices when they could, as you so clearly demonstrated, have sold those items for hundreds of thousands of gold. Of course someone will take advantage of this and repost for profit. If the original sellers had posted at a price far closer reflecting the actual ratio between supply and demand, the flippers wouldn't be buying up and reposting as there would be little to no profit.
Also, plenty of people who regularly sell items will know what their items are actually worth. Some people don't care about money, some people don't mind taking a loss to ensure their stuff sells. Or maybe, just maybe, not everyone uses pricing addons to know what the "normal" price is?
Also you realize that it's the people who regularly price things lower that eventually bring prices down, yes? Your entire thing here is everyone should keep prices the same so they don't lower by claiming people should stop undercutting items because of the Big Bad Flippers.
And can people also stop acting like flippers are the only ones buying cheaply prices items?
PC-NA | Been around since closed beta
Avid RPer. Hit me up in-game @Ras_Lei if you're interested in getting together for some arr-pee shenanigans!
RP Characters:
Sarah Lacroix: Breton Vampire who really really REALLY likes likes learning Magick and also her Altmer husbando
Kaalhil Swiftstrike: Tiny shapeshifting monster hunter Bosmeri lady with enough sass to kill a dragon or ten
Gwendolyn Jenelle: Friendly healer with a coffee addiction and her own medical practice
Krisiel: Literally crazy Werewolf, no like legit insane. She nuts
Kiju Veran: Ex-Fighters Guild Suthay who likes to punch things and is also a spy and ALSO a Werewolf
Niralae Elsinal: Young Altmeri woman with way too much Magicka and Vampire husbando
Slondor: TESified Slenderman, except lazier and has more of a thing for deals than Clavicus Vile does
Marius Vastino: Sarah's Imperial apathetic sire who likes to monologue
Lirawyn Calatare: Traveling performer and bard who's 101% vanilla bean
Soliril Larethian: Blind alchemist who uses animals to see and brews plagues in his spare time1 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Proof that people have a lot of gold? Most people at my level of play tend to sit on large amounts of wealth. I don't have much gold compared to most people on my circles (end game raiders who sell carries) and I'm sitting on almost 100m gold.
We are also the ones who buy 5-6 stacks of pots at a time, drop 4m+ on dragon Rheum in one shot, and think nothing of buying a full set of chromium platings (other than to complain about the price increase).0 -
Jayman1000✭✭✭✭✭
✭Jayman1000 wrote: »There just isn't enough items to satisfy the demand, and a number of sellers have no idea how small the supply is and how high the demand is, so they just post their items at ridiculously low prices when they could, as you so clearly demonstrated, have sold those items for hundreds of thousands of gold. Of course someone will take advantage of this and repost for profit. If the original sellers had posted at a price far closer reflecting the actual ratio between supply and demand, the flippers wouldn't be buying up and reposting as there would be little to no profit.
This logic makes no sense. What's the difference if someone sells at "normal" price as opposed to someone buying an undercut item and selling it for "normal" price? How is the flipper the bad guy and not the seller if both price the item the same? There is literally no difference so trying to use this argument to paint flippers in a bad light falls flat on its face.
Im not trying to pain flippers in a bad light
That may be the reason that you couldn't make sense of my argument, because I wasnt trying to paint flippers in a bad light at all. I apologize for not being more clear in my argumentation. My point really was to lead the reader to the conclusion that flippers aren't the ones creating the great gap between supply and demand, that gap was already there. It just so happens that some sellers haven't realized just how large the gap is so they post their rare items super cheap. Of course someone will buy that up and post it at the higher price that actually reflects the true ratio between the current supply and demand.
I have no problem with people pricing their stuff at whatever price they want, people are totally free to set the price they like, you wont hear me complain. But my response was at the OP's critizism that someone buys up cheap items and reposts for large sums making profit, as if the flippers are somehow responsible for the low supply and the high demand (which is the undeniable mechanic and truth behind what causes items to be very valuable).What's the difference if someone sells at "normal" price as opposed to someone buying an undercut item and selling it for "normal" price?
Exactly! This is the point, there is no difference really, the value of items are unchanged as the underlying supply and demand is the same. The only difference is who makes the profit, but the original seller could have just sold the items higher if they wanted to get that profit, it's entirely up to them to decide what to sell at.Some people don't care about money, some people don't mind taking a loss to ensure their stuff sells.
This is also true I agree. I didnt mention it because i was thinking about the cases where someone sells things EXTREMELY cheap, not just undercutting it like 10% to sell it fast, but like 50% or even more more below the price that they would have been still able to sell it in a few hours.Edited by Jayman1000 on April 6, 2022 12:53PM0 -
jasonhunter✭✭✭Some people look down on those who solely play the game to make fake money. I for one loved playing monopoly. So if a game like ESO offers similar incentives to get rich, I wont say no.
It is what it is.3 -
xilfxlegion✭✭✭✭✭Gaeliannas wrote: »Gaeliannas wrote: »Is it possible to revamp how guild traders work to reduce a single guild's ability to buy up all of a certain item, only to sell at 100,000g, creating a monopoly on the item. This has happened with past events, but I noticed it instantly with the Jester's Festival. As I was looking to buy the memento fragments, referencing Tamriel Trade Center, I could see a single player or a group of players buying up every fair priced item and then instantly posting it for 100,000g upwards to 400,000g. This amounts to price fixing and really takes the fun away from the game.
So to make this a bit more clear.
You use a website that relies on players uploading data from guild traders they came accross that has no live data or any other data source available. In this situation you see a number of players that have a number of items you seek at a higher price. That also likely upload this data to make it visible.
From that situation you deduct that players bought all the cheap stuff and formed a monopoly.
You dont know how recent or accurate or complete the data you saw is. You also dont know if the cheap items where bought by players that need them, like you. You also dont know how the players offering the items got them.
You ignore all of these possibilities because "bad players forming a monopoly so you have to pay more" fits your stance best?
What they said does happen, during events the flippers or the wannabe flippers come out of the woodwork and anything having to do with event writs or achievements goes through the roof, that is undeniable.
That said, you are also correct, there are many things happening at once that cause a player to not be able to always buy the lowest priced item, pretty much all of which have been spelled out in this thread.
1. Flippers flipping good deals, never gonna stop.
2. Market cornering, an advanced flipping method done by those who can afford to risk the gold.
3. Purchases of opportunity, someone just spotted a good deal and bought it, who doesn't normally flip.
4. Someone simply bought it, like you (or whomever), they wanted that item and searched for the best deals.
5. Any of the above done by those those in the same guild as the trader, as they can be notified instantly upon a item getting listed and will always beat you to it since any banker works for them.
6. Someone did a bait & switch by listing it low, then pulled and relisted it at a higher price.
7. The TTC price is borked, and the item doesn't exist anywhere at that price because the market changed.
I know that flipping happens, especially in such situations. I also know that many discussions about such topics leave out possibilities or have the issue that players dont fully understand the tools they are using.
Yes, in just this thread, the amount of misinformation on how TTC (and other 3rd party tools) work is amazing. Apparently some folks are even under the impression that "guilds" also have control over what gets listed, for how much, and when it appears on traders. Nothing could be farther from the truth, guilds basically have control over nothing in this game, other than bidding on traders and joining/booting members. As you can tell, it kind of bugs me when people blame "guilds" for things, when it is always individual players.
To be fair, many guilds *attempt* to control listed prices in their guild, or at least have rules regulating as such, and there are a few notable examples in my experience of guilds of cross-guild collaboration in terms of trying to set prices... which has had some limited effect.
who are these " many " guilds ? i have been in at least 100 different guilds and never once have any of them set prices.2 -
Kidgangster101✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'd like to see proof of this cornering people like to claim keeps happening. Not once has a single person posted anything other than hearsay and anecdotal evidence.
With the number of guild traders and the fact that each one can have 500 members selling 30 things each, it's next to impossible for anyone to try and corner any market. And to do it regularly? Do people realize just how much gold that would actually take to do?
The prices on new items ALWAYS starts out high, because people are impatient and want the New Thing™ right away. It's like this with every new thing that gets released. They always start high and then tend to crash near the end of the event when a bunch of people have them and they flood the market.
It is not true. When I played I literally owned multiple markets, you gotta know what to buy. Literally someone would put it up and I would find it for cheap. Like I'm talking I would get it for 3000 or less and literally turn around and sell it for 100,000k each........ I left the game with over a billion and had all crafting motifs this way.....
But yeah people keep saying a global ah is way worse......you guys keep using your add on telling you where to go and claim it's different than a ah...... It really is just a watered down ah with delay. If it were a global ah I wouldn't have been able to do what I did. In a global ah EVERYONE knows the price of an item so people don't usually put it up at a 97,000 discount lol. Also it's even harder to control a market because it allows EVERYONE to flood the markets with an item lowering the price of it.
I'm not even kidding I've known people that have thrown away gold marcs because they didn't have a guild trader and needed space...... Imagine all those people listing stuff.and driving down the prices you are complaining about lol.2 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
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And yet again I ask, proof? Where's the proof that "a ton of people" have this much gold? People keep making claims and then offer nothing to actually back up said claims. How is anyone "following the economy" going to know how much gold a lot of people have?Gaeliannas wrote: »RisenEclipse wrote: »I don't buy things if they're ridiculously priced. The joke poppers pieces for this event have gotten ridiculous. Before the event they'd sell for 1K - 5K, now they're shooting upward to 1mil. I'm not paying that much for a stupid momento... even if it is tied to an achievement. Just don't buy over priced items and they'll be forced to drop the prices to sell them.
Or they all sell out because enough players can afford them, and others just missed out. Anyone that has been following the economy and wealth in this game is well aware, that having 10, 20, 50 million gold is no longer an elite thing, a TON of players have that much gold and can buy whatever tickles their fancy.
Where is the proof? The proof is in the reality that if flippers can sell items for a high price then clearly other players can afford to purchase the items listed at a lower price. It goes against total logic to suggest otherwise or even to suggest only flippers buy items at the lower prices.
Even then there is the clear and obvious fact that if players can sell items at higher prices then someone is actually buying them.
Also, proof that a ton of people have this much gold. I have been here for about a year and have millions banked already. And again, if the items are selling for that much it is a clear demonstration that there are enough players who can afford the prices which proves we are right.
So if I want, and succeeded, in selling an item I farmed for a high price it is not only my right and privilege, but it is clear I am not doing anything wrong since other players have agreed to my terms. It is the way it is, the way it always will be in ESO and other well-designed MMORPGs.
Pay the asking price you can find or farm the items yourself. Zenimax already gave you control over prices.2 -
Marginis✭✭✭✭✭
You have proof for this? Because again this is something I see people make claims of every so often without providing any sort of proof of the fact. I'm in one of the big PC NA trading guilds, and the only way they control what people list is with a rule that you can't sell something for less than 1k. Literally that's it, and the rule only exists so peoples' slots aren't being taken up by literal junk. I've never heard of any actual guilds that try to control what prices their members set things at, or collaborating with other guilds to raise prices.To be fair, many guilds *attempt* to control listed prices in their guild, or at least have rules regulating as such, and there are a few notable examples in my experience of guilds of cross-guild collaboration in terms of trying to set prices... which has had some limited effect.xilfxlegion wrote: »who are these " many " guilds ? i have been in at least 100 different guilds and never once have any of them set prices.
I can't say I have proof of this, as it's something I never personally cared enough about to track. What I can tell you is that my experience with such things is almost entirely from trading guilds I have been in on xbox, and from at least a year or more ago (when I was trying out different trading guilds). Most of the price setting was out-of-game, but I do know at least two guilds I joined had prices for some specific items in the motd. If members sold items, they were expected to sell at the set price, or face punishment (insofar as a guild can punish someone, ie. being booted from the guild or losing rank and guild privileges). Some guilds were obviously more strict or more lax with this, but the format wasn't uncommon in my experience.
I can't speak to the impact that these measures had, or how closely pricing rules were followed, but from my personal experience, these had at least some impact, however little or much that was.
Not meant to be an expert statement, just my two cents.Edited by Marginis on April 6, 2022 5:19PM@Marginis on PC, Senpai Fluffy on Xbox, Founder of Magicka. Also known as Kha'jiri, The Night Mother, Ma'iq, Jane Shepard, Damia, Kintyra, Zoor Do Kest, You, and a few others.0 -
NeeScrolls✭✭✭✭
QFE ^ yep , the "market" should (and usually does) dictate the "value" of an item.So if I want, and succeeded, in selling an item I farmed for a high price it is not only my right and privilege, but it is clear I am not doing anything wrong since other players have agreed to my terms. It is the way it is, the way it always will be in ESO and other well-designed MMORPGs.
Pay the asking price you can find or farm the items yourself. Zenimax already gave you control over prices.
Our GUILD recently/finally acquired another 'Public Trader' location and tbqh i'm totally clueless nowadays as to what the current proper "fair" price is for most items. I used to dread the ESO system-of-selling (since i come from SWG where we had a galaxy-wide Bazaar option in addition to the more local nearest filters ) but now i sorta enjoy the whole carving out your own little corner-of-the-market type thing.
Plus, it's a really fun mini-game imo of like exploring or stumbling upon some random Trader out in X area map spot and discovering a rare motif or whatever for CHEAP (re: lucky find) that i've really wanted or been seeking for a while.
I've seen quite a bit of accidental undercutting too over the years, from players who just throw things up for sale just to have something listed so it's not an empty Trader spot (or maybe just leftover sales to their GUILD Store, without remembering to change price on the day it goes public ) -- And i mean, there's always gonna be gauging when there's oblvious players like me (who don't use any add-ons nor mods) ripe to be gauged.
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NettleCarrier✭✭✭✭✭Responses here are all over the place... Look, I make millions of profit per week flipping things. I do not use TTC for this purpose (I have it yes, as well as ATT because they are both valuable tools when it comes to determining value). All I do is visit the quieter traders and use Awesome Guild Store (another common addon) to sort by most recently listed. The store will use item sale history to give me a percentage of how over or underpriced an item is and I can even filter out the overpriced stuff right away. I simply buy what I have learned to be easy sells and move on to the next trader. I repeat this process for about an hour and then list everything on popular traders right before bed. I'm not "price fixing", I'm not "working with my guilds to create a monopoly", I'm simply moving goods from distant places and pricing for convenience to make some money for my efforts. That's all there is to it guys. Most of us do not sell at pre-determined prices, we just know what the average going rate is and decide what to list for. If on the second day I go to list more of something and I've still got some listed then the new batch gets priced lower, if they sold then I bump it up a percent or two, simple as that.GM of Gold Coast Corsairs - PCNA5