Modernizing Roles for ESO in 2022

HowlKimchi · March 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Ksariyu wrote: »

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of what I'm getting here is that people prefer stat-based difficulty vs. skill-based difficulty. Currently, the way you engage content is by switching between sets and abilities, rather than switching how you approach a situation with the same sets and abilities.

And hey, I'll take the L on this if that's really what everyone feels. It just seems backwards to me. I'd much rather be able to dump time into one spec and learn it well enough to complete all content, and have swapping specs be like learning a new way to complete the same content.

You have made several comments in this thread that seem to suggest that you think adapting your build to the content at hand is somehow a less skillful way to play the game. Truthfully, I think you have that completely backwards. First, there is an art to building your character to the task at hand. Call it knowledge, call it wisdom, call it skill, whatever. Second, there is absolutely a skill set in being able to play your character in multiple ways.

Good summary. I was actually avoiding pointing out the hint of elitism he had about how adjusting to content seems to imply that you had to change your build because you weren't good enough to finish the content without having to adjust.

sharquez · March 2022

It is 100% patently absurd to think that in anything but the most elite and optimized vet trials groups that tanks and healer can not or should not be able to do their respective jobs and contribute a non trivial amount of damage. Nor DPS be able to support the remaining team members when something goes wrong with either of those other roles. The content in this game is flexible enough in almost every single case that roles goals are to detail their main job and if they can complete that and contribute to the dungeon in more than that role then all the better.

The toxic subculture of hard line role delineation is poisoning the game. For instance a few months ago I Cleared Vet Cauldron with a Pug group on my Sorc tank that had a bash build on to contribute extra damage, and the entire time some snake of a DPS was hissing about fake tanks, and how I should be kicked. We cleared it with out too much difficulty apart from one person taking the time to punctuate every encounter with their temper tantrum. To add the cherry on top when the rest of the group wiped to the last boss from messing up mechs I was able to kill it to clear the dungeon because I wasn't a "Block Rock".

That said for Something like Vet Trials the role of the the trinity is more hardline because there are more people required to do the content and the specific tasks are more focused. The tanks job is to live.in that case simply because the potential damage they could contribute isn't needed.

I know I just brought it up but if we could just cut the "BUT IN VET TRIALS" out of it because it's understood, the conversation would be more productive.

jaws343 · March 2022

sharquez wrote: »

It is 100% patently absurd to think that in anything but the most elite and optimized vet trials groups that tanks and healer can not or should not be able to do their respective jobs and contribute a non trivial amount of damage. Nor DPS be able to support the remaining team members when something goes wrong with either of those other roles. The content in this game is flexible enough in almost every single case that roles goals are to detail their main job and if they can complete that and contribute to the dungeon in more than that role then all the better.

The toxic subculture of hard line role delineation is poisoning the game. For instance a few months ago I Cleared Vet Cauldron with a Pug group on my Sorc tank that had a bash build on to contribute extra damage, and the entire time some snake of a DPS was hissing about fake tanks, and how I should be kicked. We cleared it with out too much difficulty apart from one person taking the time to punctuate every encounter with their temper tantrum. To add the cherry on top when the rest of the group wiped to the last boss from messing up mechs I was able to kill it to clear the dungeon because I wasn't a "Block Rock".

That said for Something like Vet Trials the role of the the trinity is more hardline because there are more people required to do the content and the specific tasks are more focused. The tanks job is to live.in that case simply because the potential damage they could contribute isn't needed.

I know I just brought it up but if we could just cut the "BUT IN VET TRIALS" out of it because it's understood, the conversation would be more productive.

The problem is, this is perfectly doable within the parameters of the game as it exists now.

Tanks and healers can do damage with a few tweaks to their builds. Which is what everyone is trying to tell the OP.

The OP wants pure tanks builds, without any skill or gear changes made by a player, to do solo DPS levels of DPS. That is 100% patently absurd.

There isn't any need for a productive conversation based on the OPs premise: They don't want to make any changes to their tank build to add in higher DPS in solo content and instead want to change the way the entire game is put together to justify their laziness in build creation. Removing all self buffs: absurd. Tanks being able to tank dungeons and deal solo DPS levels of damage: absurd.

It takes actual skill to build a solo DPS and effectively use it to solo content like group dungeons. Actual skill. It's doesn't take skill to request the game be changed to accommodate a refusal to adapt builds around the content your are trying to play.

Malprave · March 2022

This has never been an issue on pc with the dressing room addon. Now that we have the armory this is even more of a non-issue.

MEBengalsFan2001 · March 2022

jaws343 wrote: »

Tanks/healers should not be able to do solo overland content at all, let alone any significant amount of damage in non solo content.

Switch your gear and skills and stop trying to do solo content in tank setups. Tanks/Healers are literally group support builds. If you aren't in a group those builds shouldn't be viable.

I know plenty of healers and tanks would state otherwise. If you build your character correctly you should not have any issue completing overland content alone.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2022

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Tanks/healers should not be able to do solo overland content at all, let alone any significant amount of damage in non solo content.

Switch your gear and skills and stop trying to do solo content in tank setups. Tanks/Healers are literally group support builds. If you aren't in a group those builds shouldn't be viable.

I know plenty of healers and tanks would state otherwise. If you build your character correctly you should not have any issue completing overland content alone.

But that's the whole point. Tanks and Healers are by definition group rules, and if you are alone, they simply arent aplicable terms. You cant taunt nor heal an enemy to death, nor should you be able to. If you build your character correctly for the content at hand, any class can easily be built to make overland content a breeze.

Ragnarok0130 · March 2022

I had to look at the date of your post to ensure it wasn't a necro OP because we have a solution for this problem - the armory. If you're doing solo overland content make yourself a DPS from the armory, if you're doing group content spec into your tank build, if you're going into PVP slot your PVP build. I have 4 builds in my main's armory Solo hybrid (dps and heals), DPS, Healer, and PVP.

Ksariyu · March 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

You have made several comments in this thread that seem to suggest that you think adapting your build to the content at hand is somehow a less skillful way to play the game. Truthfully, I think you have that completely backwards. First, there is an art to building your character to the task at hand. Call it knowledge, call it wisdom, call it skill, whatever. Second, there is absolutely a skill set in being able to play your character in multiple ways.

I did clarify what I meant regarding "stat-based vs. skill-based," but to reiterate, it's that I think skill should outweigh stats. It's not that gear-swapping suddenly makes content skill-free, but the fact that not doing so can make content straight-up unbeatable even if you play 100% perfectly. That's what I have a problem with regarding that specifically.
I will say though that it's wrong to imply gear-swapping is a skill itself. Sure, for the content creators and true meta-definers who come up with the builds, there's definitely skill and time put into that. For everyone else though, it's as easy as looking up a guide online or reading your guild's "Gear requirements" page, and you do not get to take credit for that. As far as there being skill in playing your character multiple ways, I'd say it's more skill to take the same tools and uniquely apply them to the situation than to just swap your tools, but I've also already attested that it's a good thing when you have options to swap your character's style and learn a new skillset. I just want those swaps to be meaningful and not because "Oh there's a trash pack ahead better put my AoE buffing sets on."

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

You seem to want one build to rule them all. Not to skate over the fact, that's exactly how wildly overpowered metas happen, it also takes far less skill and knowledge if your same build can do everything. It's a dumbed down way to play the game.

I'm dying to know where you get the idea that I want a singular meta build. If I haven't already explicitly stated multiple times that I'm in favor of build diversity, then let me do that right now. Again, the activities themselves don't take less skill for NOT swapping gear. If anything they would take more, that's literally WHY people swap gear, to make the content easier. Like I already said, pressing a button to swap to a slightly different set of passive buffs is not skill, no matter how you look at it. Your argument at this point is the ESO ouroboros logo; a cycle of the same non-arguments that both feed into and contradict each other.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

As to your comment about trifectas, yes speed matters, but speed is almost never the limiting factor. It's always deaths. Other than maybe godslayer early on (where time was a crunch), if you get the no death, everything else pretty much falls into place. So yes. If tanks could do even half the damage of a DPS, group DPS would fall very little if any, survivability would go through the roof, and trifectas would be easy mode.

A lot of deaths, especially in newer content, is from one-shot mechanics. Doesn't matter how tanky your build is, if you mess up you will die. Beyond those however, I already stated in the OP that it would likely be necessary to buff enemy HP to keep content in check. But hey, I'd also be down with lowering the level of passive tankiness that ALL builds get if survivability became a crutch.

jaws343 wrote: »

There isn't any need for a productive conversation based on the OPs premise: They don't want to make any changes to their tank build to add in higher DPS in solo content and instead want to change the way the entire game is put together to justify their laziness in build creation. Removing all self buffs: absurd. Tanks being able to tank dungeons and deal solo DPS levels of damage: absurd.

It takes actual skill to build a solo DPS and effectively use it to solo content like group dungeons. Actual skill. It's doesn't take skill to request the game be changed to accommodate a refusal to adapt builds around the content your are trying to play.

I'm gonna need you to stop putting words in my mouth. Your refusal to read doesn't justify trying to put me down. I've stated a dozen times that this is not exclusively about solo content, despite everyone's focus on that one aspect. Then laziness in build creation? Dude, check some of my prior posts. I spend most of my in-game time making actually unique new builds that try to break out of the meta. And you want to sit here bolstering your argument saying it takes skill to go online and look up a solo build? Nah bro, it doesn't, and you're not better for doing it. It takes skill to solo a group dungeon, I'll give you that. But the build is the easiest part by far.
I'd also like to address the "removing self-buffs" debacle: It was one of several ideas I listed (Everybody got too triggered reading that one to acknowledge the rest) that would provide better power balance. Not only was it just one specific possibility that would achieve the topic of the OP, but it also addresses the homogenization issue that you and yours have stated being unhappy with. It was not however suggested as the end-all-be-all solution. You chose to take it that way.

Oh, and DPS being able to tank dungeons and still deal solo levels of damage: absurd. But that's literally what we have in game right now, so make of that what you will.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

But that's the whole point. Tanks and Healers are by definition group rules, and if you are alone, they simply arent aplicable terms. You cant taunt nor heal an enemy to death, nor should you be able to.

I like that you keep conveniently forgetting to mention that DPS is also a group role, but let's take this out of the group context and you might get it. Instead of Tank-Healer-DPS, we have Defense-Utility-Damage. No matter the context, group or solo, those three pillars are relevant. You need enough defense to survive in any encounter, or you die. Utility is not required its own, but makes the other two pillars stronger and is therefore pretty much always present. Then damage, which of course you need to kill your enemy and therefore actually beat whatever activity you're working on.
DPS players get decent access to defense and GREAT access to utility with little to no sacrifice to their damage output.
Tanks and healers get horrendous access to damage without seriously sacrificing their defense or utility.
That is just ONE of the major balance issues I mentioned in the OP, and not once has it been addressed in any of your responses.

Heartrage · March 2022

I really don’t get the point of this post. Of course if you build your character to be more defensive or heal more, you won’t do as much damage when you do solo content and will take an eternity to kill enemies. Pure dps builds can’t solo harder content easily either. If you build a character to be good at doing a, it might not be good at doing b. If you want a character that is good at both, build a character that is good at doing a and b. There are enough sets, stats and skills to do it.

Arunei · March 2022

If a tank or healer could also put out endgame DPS, that would actually kill build diversity. If you can have a single build that can't die and can burn down everything in a matter of minutes, why play anything other than that build? No matter the content, that build would be used for everything. Because it couldn't die and can burst everything.

Obviously this would make Cyro a very boring place because the "burn everything" part wouldn't apply, since everyone would also be a tank or a healer with defenses and utility to keep them alive.

The simple fact is you are meant to switch your builds depending on what you want to do. There is no single build that will be able to do everything in all content. It's never been that way and it never will be, because the game would be cheesed in all PvE content by everyone running high DPS but tanky unkillable builds, and in Cyro no one would die.

Also, if a DPS sacrifices slots on their bars for utility and defense, it almost always drives down their damage output. And even for the ones that don't, DPS also tend to be very squishy because everything tends to be stacked towards offensive power, with little to none being spared for defenses, depending on whatever build someone is running. You aren't going to find people with high damage that also have stellar defenses.

Arunei · March 2022

Arunei wrote: »

If a tank or healer could also put out endgame DPS, that would actually kill build diversity. If you can have a single build that can't die and can burn down everything in a matter of minutes, why play anything other than that build? No matter the content, that build would be used for everything. Because it couldn't die and can burst everything.

Obviously this would make Cyro a very boring place because the "burn everything" part wouldn't apply, since everyone would also be a tank or a healer with defenses and utility to keep them alive.

The simple fact is you are meant to switch your builds depending on what you want to do. There is no single build that will be able to do everything in all content. It's never been that way and it never will be, because the game would be cheesed in all PvE content by everyone running high DPS but tanky unkillable builds, and in Cyro no one would die.

Also, if a DPS sacrifices slots on their bars for utility and defense, it almost always drives down their damage output. And even for the ones that don't, DPS also tend to be very squishy because everything tends to be stacked towards offensive power, with little to none being spared for defenses, depending on whatever build someone is running. You aren't going to find people with high damage that also have stellar defenses.

Edit to add something that just occured to me regarding changing builds. If we weren't meant to swap builds around and do different things, we wouldn't be able to freely swap our CP for a minimal fee, or change our Morphs or redistribute Attribute Points. We wouldn't be able to swap gear and skills anywhere (so long as we aren't in combat). Pretty much all the systems related to combat can be changed at will for the most part, a fact that wouldn't exist if we weren't meant to change builds, and do so fairly often.

Aaaaaand I accidentally quoted myself again when I thought I was editing. Good job me.

Ksariyu · March 2022

Arunei wrote: »

If a tank or healer could also put out endgame DPS, that would actually kill build diversity. If you can have a single build that can't die and can burn down everything in a matter of minutes, why play anything other than that build? No matter the content, that build would be used for everything. Because it couldn't die and can burst everything.

Obviously this would make Cyro a very boring place because the "burn everything" part wouldn't apply, since everyone would also be a tank or a healer with defenses and utility to keep them alive.

Yo I'm actually about to put a FAQ in the OP with, "Why would you play anything else?" and "What about PvP?"
Answer 1: Because DPS in an organized group will still do more damage. Also, a DPS should always be more bursty. That doesn't mean tanks and supports can't have decent sustained damage output.
Answer 2: Same as answer 1 + This paradigm is from PvP games + If nobody can die, damage across the board is too low Also possible: Sustain is too passive or otherwise low-resource-intensive.

Arunei wrote: »

Also, if a DPS sacrifices slots on their bars for utility and defense, it almost always drives down their damage output. And even for the ones that don't, DPS also tend to be very squishy because everything tends to be stacked towards offensive power, with little to none being spared for defenses, depending on whatever build someone is running. You aren't going to find people with high damage that also have stellar defenses.

Again, answered. The damage output they lose is honestly minimal. As it is, a PURE dps build (The ones pushing leaderboards right now) are slotting skills for passive effects, and those effects are either ones the support provides or ones they can get from other active skills. They have slots to spare. And yet even still, a lot of their active attacks also provide major buffs, which ironically are actually incredibly rare in support skill lines. It's no wonder supports get phased out in older content. When you really look at the buff sources in the game you see the huge bias towards DPS/generic skills/sets.

Arunei wrote: »

If we weren't meant to swap builds around and do different things, we wouldn't be able to freely swap our CP for a minimal fee, or change our Morphs or redistribute Attribute Points. We wouldn't be able to swap gear and skills anywhere (so long as we aren't in combat). Pretty much all the systems related to combat can be changed at will for the most part, a fact that wouldn't exist if we weren't meant to change builds, and do so fairly often.

"freely. . . for a minimal fee." Literal contradiction. I'd say the fact that you need to pay/go to a shrine is evidence that you were not in fact meant to do it so frequently. Almost like they wanted you to stick with your build choices unless you really wanted to swap them. As for skills/gear being freely equippable. . . Imagine if every time you leveled up as a new character and got a new skill, or picked up a new item, you had to go back home to equip it. That's why. It is funny to notice something though; The less relevant a choice is, the harder it is to switch. Skills and sets (Which make up the fundamentals of your character) are free to swap. Morphs, attribute and CP (Relatively impactful) requires a respec. But changing traits (Basically meaningless until endgame) requires going through research timers and grinding transmutes. Seems kinda backwards no?

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2022

Ksariyu wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

You have made several comments in this thread that seem to suggest that you think adapting your build to the content at hand is somehow a less skillful way to play the game. Truthfully, I think you have that completely backwards. First, there is an art to building your character to the task at hand. Call it knowledge, call it wisdom, call it skill, whatever. Second, there is absolutely a skill set in being able to play your character in multiple ways.

I did clarify what I meant regarding "stat-based vs. skill-based," but to reiterate, it's that I think skill should outweigh stats. It's not that gear-swapping suddenly makes content skill-free, but the fact that not doing so can make content straight-up unbeatable even if you play 100% perfectly. That's what I have a problem with regarding that specifically.
I will say though that it's wrong to imply gear-swapping is a skill itself. Sure, for the content creators and true meta-definers who come up with the builds, there's definitely skill and time put into that. For everyone else though, it's as easy as looking up a guide online or reading your guild's "Gear requirements" page, and you do not get to take credit for that. As far as there being skill in playing your character multiple ways, I'd say it's more skill to take the same tools and uniquely apply them to the situation than to just swap your tools, but I've also already attested that it's a good thing when you have options to swap your character's style and learn a new skillset. I just want those swaps to be meaningful and not because "Oh there's a trash pack ahead better put my AoE buffing sets on."

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

You seem to want one build to rule them all. Not to skate over the fact, that's exactly how wildly overpowered metas happen, it also takes far less skill and knowledge if your same build can do everything. It's a dumbed down way to play the game.

I'm dying to know where you get the idea that I want a singular meta build. If I haven't already explicitly stated multiple times that I'm in favor of build diversity, then let me do that right now. Again, the activities themselves don't take less skill for NOT swapping gear. If anything they would take more, that's literally WHY people swap gear, to make the content easier. Like I already said, pressing a button to swap to a slightly different set of passive buffs is not skill, no matter how you look at it. Your argument at this point is the ESO ouroboros logo; a cycle of the same non-arguments that both feed into and contradict each other.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

As to your comment about trifectas, yes speed matters, but speed is almost never the limiting factor. It's always deaths. Other than maybe godslayer early on (where time was a crunch), if you get the no death, everything else pretty much falls into place. So yes. If tanks could do even half the damage of a DPS, group DPS would fall very little if any, survivability would go through the roof, and trifectas would be easy mode.

A lot of deaths, especially in newer content, is from one-shot mechanics. Doesn't matter how tanky your build is, if you mess up you will die. Beyond those however, I already stated in the OP that it would likely be necessary to buff enemy HP to keep content in check. But hey, I'd also be down with lowering the level of passive tankiness that ALL builds get if survivability became a crutch.

jaws343 wrote: »

There isn't any need for a productive conversation based on the OPs premise: They don't want to make any changes to their tank build to add in higher DPS in solo content and instead want to change the way the entire game is put together to justify their laziness in build creation. Removing all self buffs: absurd. Tanks being able to tank dungeons and deal solo DPS levels of damage: absurd.

It takes actual skill to build a solo DPS and effectively use it to solo content like group dungeons. Actual skill. It's doesn't take skill to request the game be changed to accommodate a refusal to adapt builds around the content your are trying to play.

I'm gonna need you to stop putting words in my mouth. Your refusal to read doesn't justify trying to put me down. I've stated a dozen times that this is not exclusively about solo content, despite everyone's focus on that one aspect. Then laziness in build creation? Dude, check some of my prior posts. I spend most of my in-game time making actually unique new builds that try to break out of the meta. And you want to sit here bolstering your argument saying it takes skill to go online and look up a solo build? Nah bro, it doesn't, and you're not better for doing it. It takes skill to solo a group dungeon, I'll give you that. But the build is the easiest part by far.
I'd also like to address the "removing self-buffs" debacle: It was one of several ideas I listed (Everybody got too triggered reading that one to acknowledge the rest) that would provide better power balance. Not only was it just one specific possibility that would achieve the topic of the OP, but it also addresses the homogenization issue that you and yours have stated being unhappy with. It was not however suggested as the end-all-be-all solution. You chose to take it that way.

Oh, and DPS being able to tank dungeons and still deal solo levels of damage: absurd. But that's literally what we have in game right now, so make of that what you will.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

But that's the whole point. Tanks and Healers are by definition group rules, and if you are alone, they simply arent aplicable terms. You cant taunt nor heal an enemy to death, nor should you be able to.

I like that you keep conveniently forgetting to mention that DPS is also a group role, but let's take this out of the group context and you might get it. Instead of Tank-Healer-DPS, we have Defense-Utility-Damage. No matter the context, group or solo, those three pillars are relevant. You need enough defense to survive in any encounter, or you die. Utility is not required its own, but makes the other two pillars stronger and is therefore pretty much always present. Then damage, which of course you need to kill your enemy and therefore actually beat whatever activity you're working on.
DPS players get decent access to defense and GREAT access to utility with little to no sacrifice to their damage output.
Tanks and healers get horrendous access to damage without seriously sacrificing their defense or utility.
That is just ONE of the major balance issues I mentioned in the OP, and not once has it been addressed in any of your responses.

DPS is absolutely a group role, when did I suggest it wasnt? I dont call myself a DPS unless I am in a group. I have open world builds in both PVE and PVP, I have BG, Dueling, Arena, you name it builds, but I would never call myself or build like a DPS unless I have support. A good DPS is glassy as you know what because that's how you hit hard.

In all those other scenarios, I am sacrificing my damage for whatever else is needed to complete the task at hand. Usually that means, I need to be tankier, I need a way to heal myself, and I need to be sure my sustain is reliant on others. I likely also do something to make up for the penetration I am lacking from not having a tank. This game is all about tradeoffs, because that is what is required for balance.

Is a DPS build closer to an openworld PVE build than a pure tank or pure healer? Of course it is. Its a video game that revolves around killing bad guys and monsters. It always starts with damage, and overland is so easy that its just not that hard to survive. To expect anything else is just not realistic. That said, my open world PVP build, and certainly my dueling build, read much more like a tank than a PVE DPS. When I run support in group PVP, it plays similar to my healer build, but of course, there are many difference in the builds. No two are exactly alike, especially if you want to be effective at what you are doing.

End of the day, the most fundamental tradeoff is damage and defense. You seem to want a tank to also be good at damage. If you can do both, there is no balance.

LashanW · March 2022

Ksariyu wrote: »

I did clarify what I meant regarding "stat-based vs. skill-based," but to reiterate, it's that I think skill should outweigh stats. It's not that gear-swapping suddenly makes content skill-free, but the fact that not doing so can make content straight-up unbeatable even if you play 100% perfectly.

What is the content that becomes unbeatable unless you gear-swap? An example?

Btw there's plenty of players who copy some meta dps build from a content creator (so they have the same stats as the content creator) but they don't even come close to the dps showcased with the build, not until they understand the build AND put in enough practice. At the same time it's possible to do decent dps with crap gear and no CP by experienced players. It's no secret that this game has a big skill gap among players and ZoS has many times tried to "lower the ceiling" and "raise the floor". All of this, is because this game is more skill-based than stat-based.

Ksariyu wrote: »

I just want those swaps to be meaningful and not because "Oh there's a trash pack ahead better put my AoE buffing sets on."

What's a meaningful swap in your way of thinking? (Genuine curiosity as that example you mentioned sounds like a meaningful swap to me).

Ksariyu wrote: »

"freely. . . for a minimal fee." Literal contradiction. I'd say the fact that you need to pay/go to a shrine is evidence that you were not in fact meant to do it so frequently. Almost like they wanted you to stick with your build choices unless you really wanted to swap them.

My main DD who has 350 skill points atm, need to pay 17k gold if she wants to completely change them. But if she wants to change her hair color a bit, gotta pay up 1000 crowns, on PC-EU that's like 2 million gold. There's no point in over analyzing payments required for changing character aspects.

Arunei · March 2022

Ksariyu wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

If a tank or healer could also put out endgame DPS, that would actually kill build diversity. If you can have a single build that can't die and can burn down everything in a matter of minutes, why play anything other than that build? No matter the content, that build would be used for everything. Because it couldn't die and can burst everything.

Obviously this would make Cyro a very boring place because the "burn everything" part wouldn't apply, since everyone would also be a tank or a healer with defenses and utility to keep them alive.

Yo I'm actually about to put a FAQ in the OP with, "Why would you play anything else?" and "What about PvP?"
Answer 1: Because DPS in an organized group will still do more damage. Also, a DPS should always be more bursty. That doesn't mean tanks and supports can't have decent sustained damage output.
Answer 2: Same as answer 1 + This paradigm is from PvP games + If nobody can die, damage across the board is too low Also possible: Sustain is too passive or otherwise low-resource-intensive.

Arunei wrote: »

Also, if a DPS sacrifices slots on their bars for utility and defense, it almost always drives down their damage output. And even for the ones that don't, DPS also tend to be very squishy because everything tends to be stacked towards offensive power, with little to none being spared for defenses, depending on whatever build someone is running. You aren't going to find people with high damage that also have stellar defenses.

Again, answered. The damage output they lose is honestly minimal. As it is, a PURE dps build (The ones pushing leaderboards right now) are slotting skills for passive effects, and those effects are either ones the support provides or ones they can get from other active skills. They have slots to spare. And yet even still, a lot of their active attacks also provide major buffs, which ironically are actually incredibly rare in support skill lines. It's no wonder supports get phased out in older content. When you really look at the buff sources in the game you see the huge bias towards DPS/generic skills/sets.

Arunei wrote: »

If we weren't meant to swap builds around and do different things, we wouldn't be able to freely swap our CP for a minimal fee, or change our Morphs or redistribute Attribute Points. We wouldn't be able to swap gear and skills anywhere (so long as we aren't in combat). Pretty much all the systems related to combat can be changed at will for the most part, a fact that wouldn't exist if we weren't meant to change builds, and do so fairly often.

"freely. . . for a minimal fee." Literal contradiction. I'd say the fact that you need to pay/go to a shrine is evidence that you were not in fact meant to do it so frequently. Almost like they wanted you to stick with your build choices unless you really wanted to swap them. As for skills/gear being freely equippable. . . Imagine if every time you leveled up as a new character and got a new skill, or picked up a new item, you had to go back home to equip it. That's why. It is funny to notice something though; The less relevant a choice is, the harder it is to switch. Skills and sets (Which make up the fundamentals of your character) are free to swap. Morphs, attribute and CP (Relatively impactful) requires a respec. But changing traits (Basically meaningless until endgame) requires going through research timers and grinding transmutes. Seems kinda backwards no?

Point A about "organized DPS will still do more damage" means nothing. If you want tanks and healers doing anything like 30-40k, no one will care if organized DPS will do more damage. If a build can do that kind of damage while also having the survivability of tank, EVERYONE WOULD USE IT. People would take the drop in DPS because why wouldn't they, if they could run something with high damage and high survivability. And you haven't said once, that I've seen at least, how much damage you expect healers and tanks to be able to do. Healers can already hit 20-30k or probably higher (my healers can average around 20k DPS) and I've seen tanks be able to manage around 15k, which is more than enough for overland.

The PvP point? You're acting like I'm saying that's the case now when I'm clearly saying that would be the case for what you want. If we had a single build that could do high damage but never die, then all of Cyro would just be stalemates when it comes to fighting other players. If you have survivability and utility and tankiness and can murder everything easily in PvE, literally everyone would be playing these tanks in PvP because no one would be playing normal DPS or healers. It wouldn't matter how high DPS is if tanks could just keep surviving each other, and in fact raising DPS would only make it worse in PvE because welp, now the tanks do even MORE damage. So then we have even more tanks in PvP.

Most DPS may run a utility skill or two, but they aren't running a full kit like a dedicated tank or healer. If they try their damage output would decrease significantly. A lot of DPS skills have these buffs and healing because they do not have the space to put a full suite of healing and utility skills. Healers and tanks are expected to have these different skills because that's their role. Also, no DPS of any single Class or Race can completely buff themselves and still do high DPS. Sure, you can give yourself some buffs with sets and all, but if a person could easily give themselves every buff even as a DPS then we wouldn't really ask that healers and tanks provide the missing ones DPS can't give themselves, would we?

Finally, the "freely" remark. Freely does not mean 'something without a monetary cost', it means the following:

*Not under the control of another
*Without restriction or interference
*In copious or generous amounts
*Openly and honestly
*Willingly and readily; without compulsion

Nowhere in that does it back up what you're using it to mean, so no, it is NOT a "literal contradiction". You can FREELY switch your CP, Skills, and Attributes whenever you like without restriction aside from two minor ones. The first is the 30-second cooldown on swapping active CP, and the other is needing the gold to do the respecs. If you're going to be swapping your builds around like that regularly to begin with, chances are good that you know how to get the fairly small amount of gold needed to do so. It's not like you're paying 20-30k every time you want to swap things around, either, especially since just changing Morphs is much cheaper than removing entire skill lines and such, and neither resetting CP or Attributes is very expensive either. If they really wanted you to "stick with" your choices, then changing them would cost excessive amounts of gold and/or be limited to how many times you could make such choices in a given time period. Or they'd put the method for doing the changes behind a paywall by putting them only in the CS, as is the case for things like Alliance Change and Race Change Tokens.

The simple fact is you want to have high damage and high survivability on one build. You don't want to swap builds to account for the content you're doing. You've quite literally said that, that you want to play one build rather than having several. You argue that having a build for solo content somehow means not being able to have a solid dedicated build for group content, as if they're somehow mutually exclusive and that there don't exist ways to easily swap builds like, I don't know, the Armory. That thing that saves builds for you to quickly (and "for free", mind you, in the sense that once you save a build you can load it without paying for CP/Skill/Attribute changes) swap between. And most everyone here is explaining why that won't work. You said you'd accept it if everyone really felt this way but all you've done is double down the more we try to tell you why your idea wouldn't work.

Ksariyu · March 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

DPS is absolutely a group role, when did I suggest it wasnt?

Uh, each time you used this argument and said, "Tank and healer are group roles" while not mentioning DPS.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Is a DPS build closer to an openworld PVE build than a pure tank or pure healer? Of course it is. Its a video game that revolves around killing bad guys and monsters.

Okay, we're getting closer to understanding the point here. . .

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

That said, my open world PVP build, and certainly my dueling build, read much more like a tank than a PVE DPS. When I run support in PVE, it plays similar to my healer build. No two are exactly alike, especially if you want to be effective at what you are doing.

Your Cyro PvP build being a tank is your choice. Which is fine. But it's not like there aren't bursty gank builds being complained about in all forms of PvP. The environment itself doesn't force you to play a tank. As for your healer build, I'm assuming you meant "support in PvP," but either way, you're saying your support build plays similar to your support (healer) build. . . So? Not seeing the argument there.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

End of the day, the most fundamental tradeoff is damage and defense. You seem to want a tank to also be good at damage. If you can do both, there is no balance.

Right. I've attested to this myself several times in this thread. The ends of the spectrum don't need to be so extreme though. I've already mentioned over and over how DPS can get decent survivability with little DPS loss (Yes there is SOME, particularly in solo content). And I'm okay with that, so long as damage is accessible for the same tradeoff for tanks and supports.

LashanW wrote: »

What is the content that becomes unbeatable unless you gear-swap? An example?

Anything with a DPS check, most notably for this scenario the DPS checks in MA and VH. But even in group content, anything that requires someone else to hit a stat mark so you don't die can be frustrating (Does not apply to trifecta runs where everyone should be expected to exceed average performance).

LashanW wrote: »

Btw there's plenty of players who copy some meta dps build from a content creator (so they have the same stats as the content creator) but they don't even come close to the dps showcased with the build, not until they understand the build AND put in enough practice.

Already said this in the post you quoted. Again.

LashanW wrote: »

ZoS has many times tried to "lower the ceiling" and "raise the floor". All of this, is because this game is more skill-based than stat-based.

And they've failed repeatedly by giving DPS easier solo access to utility while simply giving tanks and supports more "Group-oriented" sets.

LashanW wrote: »

What's a meaningful swap in your way of thinking? (Genuine curiosity as that example you mentioned sounds like a meaningful swap to me).

Meaningful like swapping roles, or changing the core of how your character performs within the same role (i.e. swapping from 1H/Shield tank to a Frost Staff tank).

LashanW wrote: »

My main DD who has 350 skill points atm, need to pay 17k gold if she wants to completely change them. But if she wants to change her hair color a bit, gotta pay up 1000 crowns, on PC-EU that's like 2 million gold. There's no point in over analyzing payments required for changing character aspects.

Two completely different things to compare. The part about hair color just shows that ZoS knows who's going to pay them money, and they're more than willing to take it (See other posts about ZoS's increasing greed).

Arunei wrote: »

Point A about "organized DPS will still do more damage" means nothing. If you want tanks and healers doing anything like 30-40k, no one will care if organized DPS will do more damage.

Do you actually believe this? I think most endgame players will agree that doing MAXIMUM damage is of high preference. Endgame DPS give up active slots for passive buffs. They WILL play DPS if it gives them more damage and less time repeating mechanics.

Arunei wrote: »

And you haven't said once, that I've seen at least, how much damage you expect healers and tanks to be able to do.

Somewhere in the ballpark of what solo builds can do. Which would still be less than a group DPS, just so we don't have to rehash that again in your next post.

Arunei wrote: »

The PvP point? You're acting like I'm saying that's the case now when I'm clearly saying that would be the case for what you want. If we had a single build that could do high damage but never die, then all of Cyro would just be stalemates when it comes to fighting other players.

I'm sorry but just read. Like for real, I directly addressed this already in the post you quoted. Also, excessive tankiness WAS a problem in a recent patch. It's not a new problem for this game, so yes, it DOES in fact already happen.

Arunei wrote: »

Most DPS may run a utility skill or two, but they aren't running a full kit like a dedicated tank or healer. If they try their damage output would decrease significantly. A lot of DPS skills have these buffs and healing because they do not have the space to put a full suite of healing and utility skills. Healers and tanks are expected to have these different skills because that's their role. Also, no DPS of any single Class or Race can completely buff themselves and still do high DPS. Sure, you can give yourself some buffs with sets and all, but if a person could easily give themselves every buff even as a DPS then we wouldn't really ask that healers and tanks provide the missing ones DPS can't give themselves, would we?

DPS get access to Brutality, Savagery, Force, and often Minor Berserk (Now even Major Berserk with Kinra's) with little to no loss of DPS skills/sets. Those are the BIGGEST damage buffs in the game. Compare that to what tanks and supports get to provide: Courage. That's the only real unique damage buff they supply anymore. And the worst part is that's from SETS usually, though Major Force usually comes from the ever-present Warhorn (Seriously this skill has been a must-have on non-DPS for YEARS. Where are the other support ults?) Again, DPS are getting so many free buffs they're overlapping and exceeding what supports give.

Arunei wrote: »

Finally, the "freely" remark. Freely does not mean 'something without a monetary cost', it means the following:

*Not under the control of another
*Without restriction or interference
*In copious or generous amounts
*Openly and honestly
*Willingly and readily; without compulsion

"Without restriction or interference." Having to go to a shrine and pay gold IS restriction and interference. You can dismiss it as however minor you want, but it's still there. "Without compulsion." Again, paying IS compulsion. So yes, literal contradiction.

Arunei wrote: »

You said you'd accept it if everyone really felt this way but all you've done is double down the more we try to tell you why your idea wouldn't work.

You'll notice I've left alone the people who will just agree to disagree. I don't care if you don't like my ideas, everyone has their own opinion. The reason I've kept responding is because A. People are putting words in my mouth, telling me what I know or what I want or what I don't want, often in direct contradiction to what I've actually said, and B. People keep telling me I'm objectively, unequivocally wrong, then providing half-baked arguments that aim more to insult me than to actually give evidence of why I'm wrong. The most compelling argument any of you seem to know is "Nobody would play DPS," which is as hypothetical as any of these changes actually happening as has no real bearing without testing.

jaws343 · March 2022

Ksariyu wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

DPS is absolutely a group role, when did I suggest it wasnt?

Uh, each time you used this argument and said, "Tank and healer are group roles" while not mentioning DPS.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Is a DPS build closer to an openworld PVE build than a pure tank or pure healer? Of course it is. Its a video game that revolves around killing bad guys and monsters.

Okay, we're getting closer to understanding the point here. . .

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

That said, my open world PVP build, and certainly my dueling build, read much more like a tank than a PVE DPS. When I run support in PVE, it plays similar to my healer build. No two are exactly alike, especially if you want to be effective at what you are doing.

Your Cyro PvP build being a tank is your choice. Which is fine. But it's not like there aren't bursty gank builds being complained about in all forms of PvP. The environment itself doesn't force you to play a tank. As for your healer build, I'm assuming you meant "support in PvP," but either way, you're saying your support build plays similar to your support (healer) build. . . So? Not seeing the argument there.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

End of the day, the most fundamental tradeoff is damage and defense. You seem to want a tank to also be good at damage. If you can do both, there is no balance.

Right. I've attested to this myself several times in this thread. The ends of the spectrum don't need to be so extreme though. I've already mentioned over and over how DPS can get decent survivability with little DPS loss (Yes there is SOME, particularly in solo content). And I'm okay with that, so long as damage is accessible for the same tradeoff for tanks and supports.

LashanW wrote: »

What is the content that becomes unbeatable unless you gear-swap? An example?

Anything with a DPS check, most notably for this scenario the DPS checks in MA and VH. But even in group content, anything that requires someone else to hit a stat mark so you don't die can be frustrating (Does not apply to trifecta runs where everyone should be expected to exceed average performance).

LashanW wrote: »

Btw there's plenty of players who copy some meta dps build from a content creator (so they have the same stats as the content creator) but they don't even come close to the dps showcased with the build, not until they understand the build AND put in enough practice.

Already said this in the post you quoted. Again.

LashanW wrote: »

ZoS has many times tried to "lower the ceiling" and "raise the floor". All of this, is because this game is more skill-based than stat-based.

And they've failed repeatedly by giving DPS easier solo access to utility while simply giving tanks and supports more "Group-oriented" sets.

LashanW wrote: »

What's a meaningful swap in your way of thinking? (Genuine curiosity as that example you mentioned sounds like a meaningful swap to me).

Meaningful like swapping roles, or changing the core of how your character performs within the same role (i.e. swapping from 1H/Shield tank to a Frost Staff tank).

LashanW wrote: »

My main DD who has 350 skill points atm, need to pay 17k gold if she wants to completely change them. But if she wants to change her hair color a bit, gotta pay up 1000 crowns, on PC-EU that's like 2 million gold. There's no point in over analyzing payments required for changing character aspects.

Two completely different things to compare. The part about hair color just shows that ZoS knows who's going to pay them money, and they're more than willing to take it (See other posts about ZoS's increasing greed).

Arunei wrote: »

Point A about "organized DPS will still do more damage" means nothing. If you want tanks and healers doing anything like 30-40k, no one will care if organized DPS will do more damage.

Do you actually believe this? I think most endgame players will agree that doing MAXIMUM damage is of high preference. Endgame DPS give up active slots for passive buffs. They WILL play DPS if it gives them more damage and less time repeating mechanics.

Arunei wrote: »

And you haven't said once, that I've seen at least, how much damage you expect healers and tanks to be able to do.

Somewhere in the ballpark of what solo builds can do. Which would still be less than a group DPS, just so we don't have to rehash that again in your next post.

Arunei wrote: »

The PvP point? You're acting like I'm saying that's the case now when I'm clearly saying that would be the case for what you want. If we had a single build that could do high damage but never die, then all of Cyro would just be stalemates when it comes to fighting other players.

I'm sorry but just read. Like for real, I directly addressed this already in the post you quoted. Also, excessive tankiness WAS a problem in a recent patch. It's not a new problem for this game, so yes, it DOES in fact already happen.

Arunei wrote: »

Most DPS may run a utility skill or two, but they aren't running a full kit like a dedicated tank or healer. If they try their damage output would decrease significantly. A lot of DPS skills have these buffs and healing because they do not have the space to put a full suite of healing and utility skills. Healers and tanks are expected to have these different skills because that's their role. Also, no DPS of any single Class or Race can completely buff themselves and still do high DPS. Sure, you can give yourself some buffs with sets and all, but if a person could easily give themselves every buff even as a DPS then we wouldn't really ask that healers and tanks provide the missing ones DPS can't give themselves, would we?

DPS get access to Brutality, Savagery, Force, and often Minor Berserk (Now even Major Berserk with Kinra's) with little to no loss of DPS skills/sets. Those are the BIGGEST damage buffs in the game. Compare that to what tanks and supports get to provide: Courage. That's the only real unique damage buff they supply anymore. And the worst part is that's from SETS usually, though Major Force usually comes from the ever-present Warhorn (Seriously this skill has been a must-have on non-DPS for YEARS. Where are the other support ults?) Again, DPS are getting so many free buffs they're overlapping and exceeding what supports give.

Arunei wrote: »

Finally, the "freely" remark. Freely does not mean 'something without a monetary cost', it means the following:

*Not under the control of another
*Without restriction or interference
*In copious or generous amounts
*Openly and honestly
*Willingly and readily; without compulsion

"Without restriction or interference." Having to go to a shrine and pay gold IS restriction and interference. You can dismiss it as however minor you want, but it's still there. "Without compulsion." Again, paying IS compulsion. So yes, literal contradiction.

Arunei wrote: »

You said you'd accept it if everyone really felt this way but all you've done is double down the more we try to tell you why your idea wouldn't work.

You'll notice I've left alone the people who will just agree to disagree. I don't care if you don't like my ideas, everyone has their own opinion. The reason I've kept responding is because A. People are putting words in my mouth, telling me what I know or what I want or what I don't want, often in direct contradiction to what I've actually said, and B. People keep telling me I'm objectively, unequivocally wrong, then providing half-baked arguments that aim more to insult me than to actually give evidence of why I'm wrong. The most compelling argument any of you seem to know is "Nobody would play DPS," which is as hypothetical as any of these changes actually happening as has no real bearing without testing.

No one has put any words in your mouth. Your entire argument in this thread boils down to wanting to do Solo damage on a tank without making any changes to the build at all.

You have literally said that you want to be able to build a tank that can competently tank group content and also do solo arenas without making any changes. Even in the quoted bit here you say that tanks should be able to pass solo DPS checks.

So yeah, your entire argument is nonsense.

A DPS character has to make DPS sacrifices to transition into a solo build. A solo build that is still not even close to being able to be a competent tank in group content. And again, my solo build does 40K or so DPS on a dummy, which means far less in active combat, and still has to avoid mechanics that a tank can just block through.

If you want your tank to do damage, make sacrifices to the tankiness of the character and add in more DPS related skills and gear. The same as a DPS character has to do to go solo, making sacrifices in damage for survivability.

A tank should not do the same damage as a solo build without diminishing their defensive capabilities.

jaws343 · March 2022

You know what, let's approach this from another angle:

Here is a common tank set up from Alcast:

S&B: Dragonblood, Absorb Missile, Pierce Armor, Igneous Shield, Heroic Slash, Magma Shell
Destro: Blood Altar, Blockade, Inner Rage, Unrelenting Grip, Balance, Warhorn
21K Mag, 49K Health, 22K Stam

So, in all, with just skills, that tank setup has 4 skills that can do some amount of damage.

Now, let's take my solo build:

Destro: Shield, Bound Armaments, Curse, Frags, Force Pulse, Meteor
Destro: Shield, Blockade, orbs, crit surge, boundless storm, storm atro
35K mag, 23K health, 20K stam

That is nine skills that do some ammount of damage.

That doesn't even account for the gear, of which, tank gear is designed to maximize group buffs and solo gear is meant to maximize self sustain and damage.

My solo build tankiness comes from adequate usage of dodge roll and having double barred shield and passive healing with crit surge.

The tanks tankiness comes from their gear, heavy armor, and from sword and board, and from skills, and from having 49K health.

To begin with, no way should a tank with only 4 skills that do damage have anywhere near the same DPS as a build that has 9 skills that do damage. But beyond that, while also not even giving up one ounce of their tankiness either. Like that Alcast build is wearing Ebon and Yolnahkriin and lord Warden and has nearly 30K resists unbuffed. A common solo build has like 20K resists after buffs, and in the case of mine, is wearing False God for sustain, Mothers sorrow and Maelstrom staff for some damage, and Death Dealers for a bit of extra stats.

And then their are the CP slottables. Which, by the way, are free to swap in and out once you have spent the CP on them. Solo builds use CP that is dedicated to sustain and damage. Tank CP is far different, moving into more damage reduction, block and heal related slottables.

The way to build each type of build is so drastically different that they should never come never one another in either damage or defensiveness.

A great example of this is the final fight in Bloodroot Forge.

On a tank setup, a player can easily block the heavy attacks from the Atronachs.

On a solo build setups, even when blocking those attacks, you are killed. You can only dodge roll them.

This is an intentional, and much needed disparity between the two build types. There is no chance that players would ever run solo builds, or even DPS builds, in 4 man content if they could run pure tank setups and do the same damage and never have to worry about dying to any mechanics that a tank can handle. Especially given that 45K DPS is more than enough for every bit of 4 man content in the game, 4 tanks doing 45K DPS using only 4 skills that do damage and being able to ignore every damaging mechanic would far outperform any group compositions with pure DPS or with healers. Why would you ever run a pure DPS build outside of trial score pushing again if you can run a pure tank setup and clear all content.

It's nonsense.

Arunei · March 2022

Ksariyu wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Point A about "organized DPS will still do more damage" means nothing. If you want tanks and healers doing anything like 30-40k, no one will care if organized DPS will do more damage.

Do you actually believe this? I think most endgame players will agree that doing MAXIMUM damage is of high preference. Endgame DPS give up active slots for passive buffs. They WILL play DPS if it gives them more damage and less time repeating mechanics.

Arunei wrote: »

And you haven't said once, that I've seen at least, how much damage you expect healers and tanks to be able to do.

Somewhere in the ballpark of what solo builds can do. Which would still be less than a group DPS, just so we don't have to rehash that again in your next post

So this is what it comes down to. You want tanks and healers to be able to do around 30-40k DPS, never mind that healers can generally already hit decent DPS. You want to be able to do everything on one build, from simple overland all the way up to endgame group content, as you yourself have mentioned. You have said you don't want numerous builds but instead want one that can pretty much do everything.

If tanks could do 40k DPS, four tanks would be pulling a group DPS of 160k. You'd be getting that same amount from two DPS with 80k each. Toss in maybe 15-20k average DPS from a healer and maybe 10k from the tank, which can be a group DPS of around 190k. That's a little bit more than 4 tanks, yeah, but here's the thing you keep wanting to overlook.

These groups of tanks wouldn't have to worry about dying.

Yes, if tanks could do as much damage as a solo DPS build, everyone would be using them. Who cares if the dungeons are a little slower because you can't burn everything in 2 seconds when you don't have to worry about numerous mechanics thanks to having a tank's resistances and health? Heck, being able to ignore various mechanics might still make a lot of dungeons about the same in terms of how long it takes to clear them. You might be losing a few minutes in speed, but you could make up for it in not having to pay attention to certain mechanics and just plow through them.

And I'm not the only person trying to tell you this is why this won't work. It's not a matter of disagreeing because of a subjective viewpoint, it's because it literally would not work because of what it would do to the game. It's not a matter of disagreeing when we try to tell you that wanting to play a single build for all content has never been a thing in this game. It's not a matter of disagreeing when you claim having a build for solo content somehow prevents you from having a viable tank or healer build for group content. That's simply not true, because as long as this game has been live people have been swapping between viable solo and group builds, without either build somehow suffering.

jaws343 · March 2022

Arunei wrote: »

Ksariyu wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Point A about "organized DPS will still do more damage" means nothing. If you want tanks and healers doing anything like 30-40k, no one will care if organized DPS will do more damage.

Do you actually believe this? I think most endgame players will agree that doing MAXIMUM damage is of high preference. Endgame DPS give up active slots for passive buffs. They WILL play DPS if it gives them more damage and less time repeating mechanics.

Arunei wrote: »

And you haven't said once, that I've seen at least, how much damage you expect healers and tanks to be able to do.

Somewhere in the ballpark of what solo builds can do. Which would still be less than a group DPS, just so we don't have to rehash that again in your next post

So this is what it comes down to. You want tanks and healers to be able to do around 30-40k DPS, never mind that healers can generally already hit decent DPS. You want to be able to do everything on one build, from simple overland all the way up to endgame group content, as you yourself have mentioned. You have said you don't want numerous builds but instead want one that can pretty much do everything.

If tanks could do 40k DPS, four tanks would be pulling a group DPS of 160k. You'd be getting that same amount from two DPS with 80k each. Toss in maybe 15-20k average DPS from a healer and maybe 10k from the tank, which can be a group DPS of around 190k. That's a little bit more than 4 tanks, yeah, but here's the thing you keep wanting to overlook.

These groups of tanks wouldn't have to worry about dying.

Yes, if tanks could do as much damage as a solo DPS build, everyone would be using them. Who cares if the dungeons are a little slower because you can't burn everything in 2 seconds when you don't have to worry about numerous mechanics thanks to having a tank's resistances and health? Heck, being able to ignore various mechanics might still make a lot of dungeons about the same in terms of how long it takes to clear them. You might be losing a few minutes in speed, but you could make up for it in not having to pay attention to certain mechanics and just plow through them.

And I'm not the only person trying to tell you this is why this won't work. It's not a matter of disagreeing because of a subjective viewpoint, it's because it literally would not work because of what it would do to the game. It's not a matter of disagreeing when we try to tell you that wanting to play a single build for all content has never been a thing in this game. It's not a matter of disagreeing when you claim having a build for solo content somehow prevents you from having a viable tank or healer build for group content. That's simply not true, because as long as this game has been live people have been swapping between viable solo and group builds, without either build somehow suffering.

That's the rub of it that keeps getting overlooked here.

Say my example of Bloodroot Forge on Vet required 50K group DPS to clear the content reasonably, 75K group DPS to clear the content comfortably, and 100K group DPS to clear it quickly with no issues.

Well, two solo builds, who self buffed can push out 40K DPS each, are going to be pushing out well over that with group buffs, and the group DPS is going to be over the 100K mark easily. Two full DPS builds are going to push group DPS well over the 150K mark, with each likely doing around 75K after mechanics.

The difference is, the two solo builds, while having less DPS, are going to have more surviability and not be as reliable on the tank or healer if one of them goes down. Meaning, group survivability increases. The two full DPS builds are going to require the tank and healer to be on point, and if one goes down, it is likely a wipe. Especially the tank.

But, in either situation, the DPS following mechanics and the tank following mechanics is a must. The tank not holding the atros in the final fight correctly could wipe the group because both the solo builds and the full DPS builds will be one shot from the mechanics, healer too.

Now, let's take the case where a full tank build can do 40K DPS. Well, with the solo builds, you would be better off running the tank build, because it is the same DPS but far more survivability. As a group, you'd be pushing nearly 150K group DPS after group buffs and including the healer in. But wait, why would you need a healer, 4 tanks can heal themselves just fine. So make that 160K+ DPS, with 4 tanks running the content. Well more than enough DPS to clear it fast.

But, but, but, what about the 2 full DPS builds, they can dish out even more damage. Sure they can, they can also die to mechanics and require external healing to stay alive. So, say you have your two full DPS doing 75K DPS each, plus a tank doing another 40K, you have around 200K group DPS likely. But, you also have two DPS who are basically helpless the moment the tank or healer dies. It would make zero sense to run this setup at all.

And I know what is going to be said, "of course players will run the setup that provides more DPS." Which, that is true to some extant. But what we actually see is that players run the setups that offer the best chance of success.

Take for example, the 1 tank, 3 DPS configs that are fairly successful. They are not successful because they dish out more DPS than the tank, healer, 2 DPS configs. Which, of course they do dish out more DPS than groups with healers. Individually, the DPS actually each do less DPS than would be possible in a 2 DPS setup, because the DPS are essentially running solo builds to provide self healing and self buffs they would otherwise get from a healer. This adds to the success of those group configuration because they are not reliant on a healer keeping them alive, and if one of the DPS dies, they are still in a comfortable spot to either res them or just finish off the boss. It's the path of least resistance, where wearing gear and using skills you wouldn't otherwise use on a DPS in a group setting provides a better outcome than running a full DPS spec and pushing 75-100K DPS per DPS.

That is why 4 tanks, pushing 40K DPS each and 160K+ group DPS would be better than having two traditional DPS roles in a group pushing over 200K DPS. The chances of success go way up if you can just tank mechanics you were not meant to as a DPS. And anything past the 100K group DPS mark or so is completely unnecessary to clear the content easily.

Ksariyu · March 2022

Alright, so let's take these four long posts and condense them into what I believe (As always correct me if I'm wrong) is the core conflict we're having. You're all worried that in the trinity of Defense/Offense/Utility that Defense is going to become overpowered and be a crutch, is that right? That is a totally fair and valid concern. I was conscious of it in the OP, but I did also directly address it in my last post.
One of the main principals I've tried to maintain in my suggestions is pushing the game more towards active sources of power. Because you're right, the ability to deal damage and defend against it has to be balanced.
So let's look at tanks, since that's what seems to be the biggest concern. My suggestions included giving them a damage boost after interrupting a target, and giving them a stacking damage bonus for blocking (Which only affects your next attack).
BOTH of these buffs require that you are not just playing a tank, but playing LIKE a tank. If you aren't taking damage from multiple sources, you're not getting the value of the stacking block buff. If you aren't the one interrupting targets, you're not getting the value from that damage buff either. So if you take four tanks into a dungeon, only one of them is actually going to do decent damage while the rest do poorly, or they're all going to do mediocre damage. Either way you're not just slightly gimping yourself but significantly nerfing your groups total damage by not bringing a proper group. And on this note, I also suggested that passive defense (Resists, HP) could be lowered to make up for the extra damage potential if it was still being used to cheese content.
There's also the fact that, even in the current patch, defense IS used as a crutch. DPS still swap out a skill or two for extra defense in situations where they aren't perfecting the mechanics. In any game with mechanics like this, the goal is always to minimize the amount of defense you need and maximize your offense. The unfortunate part of this is that tanks in particular often get shafted because their natural need for defense to perform their role is seen as a handicap, and people for whatever reason reject the idea of adding skillful or otherwise high-risk-high-reward forms of both offense AND defense to these builds.
Now let's bring this back to the premise of the OP, for we've gotten quite distracted. The goal of the OP wasn't just, "Add more dmg pls." It was to make ALL roles in GROUP content more engaging to play. It's no secret that tanks and healers are less popular BY FAR, and a big part of that comes down to the fact that they're just not as fun to play. There's a lot of holding block as tank, or spamming auto-aim heals as support. A big part of playing these roles is done in the build phase, where you just stack passive sources of defense or healing output (This is also why the number of sets required for these roles is double what DPS have to have).
So now let's look at solo builds. Solo builds are FUN. They're incredibly active in how they play, and they can change activities mid-combat if necessary. This is also something I addressed in my OP; all roles should be more self-reliant. Looking at the way taunts work, I think this was always the intent. Single target taunts meant that the tank wouldn't take every enemy, and therefore the DPS and supports would have to take out some targets on their own. This changed when people realized how broken chains + AoEs were, and we ended up back in the same boat as every other MMO where you just stack and burn 95% of the game. Now, rather than tanks having room to breathe and do damage, they have to spam chains and block. Rather than supports having to turn their attention to the enemy and deal some damage, they just rotate a small selection of AoE buffs/debuffs. And rather than DPS having to engage singular targets head-on, they just stand in one spot and parse. To me, this is where group content falls short.
There are so many levers a player has to mess with the balance of their character. These same levers can and do get adjusted by the dev team all the time. I'm not asking for radical changes to the core mechanics, but simply suggesting the direction they could take their next wave of these more basic changes.