Need ZOS' stance on theorycrafters and endgame players

Camelord · February 2022

I'm sorry if this sounds like a rant, I really only want answers to some of the things mentioned in the patch notes. (and i know a lot of other players who do)
I want to start off by saying that theorycrafting is one of my favorite part of the game. The way the sets works and the sets not jumping in gear score/item level makes it so you can really build anything and do decent with anything. Also, I know the damage is way too high in the game right now. That being said, reading the dev comments, it feels like there's this one way they want us to play but don't tell us what it is.

This set is currently pulling out too far ahead compared to other sets, creating a situation where every build feels like it should be running dangerously low on resources all the time, or utilizing powerful contextual group sets to drop low and fill up when needed. While we do want the set to reward its risks, we’re reigning the power back a bit to let other sets shine where they do best.

Here it feels like they don't want bahsei being used. If they do us to wear other sets, give us other sets. If we compare with other minor slayer sets. Bahsei gives around 8-10% damage increase + 5% from minor slayer. False god and Vicious Serpent give Minor slayer, magicka regen and Major expedition (nothing towards dps increase but is nice in solo play/arenas). Siroria is just outdated imo since the Weapon/Spell Damage boost we got. Moondancer is a worst Siroria. Relequen is in a good state iirc. Master Architect, War Machine and Lokkestiiz have been killed by Roaring opportunist. Yandir, same problem as Siroria but i've seen some people talk about using it in some contexts. Alkosh... it's for tanks, let us win this war. Susan's Torment is good imo but can't be used on most boss. It is in a good state and we do love our trash setups. So where does it leave us? There's a ton of other sets, those are the trial sets giving Minor Slayer. Supposed to give stronger effects. Minor Slayer is just a very good buff, some sets would be better than bahsei or relequen but Minor slayer exist. (i'm not saying to remove it)

This ability and its morphs are currently enabling incredibly polarizing gameplay; it feeds into an intense risk/reward mechanic that can often be mitigated heavily by specialized classes and builds that stack life steal, paired with deep knowledge of content and combat interactions.

Another good one. Personally never toggled but I don't know how we're not expected to build around a risk and reward mechanic. The spell removes the ability to get healed by other players. Not building anything to heal yourself when there's trial mechanics, mobs and other stuff hitting you on top of spell dealing damage to you would be griefing. The whole point of a risk/reward mechanic is to get rewarded if you can deal with the risk part. Someone having "deep knowledge of content and combat interactions" is just someone who put time into learning the game and the trial/boss they're fighting. The way it is written feels like you could put this on any player and expect them not to die. Those builds require to either 1) destroy the boss in 30 sec or 2) turn on and off your toggle depending on what's happening/your rotation. It is kind of hilarious seeing those burn videos with a death in it bc they wanted to push the most out of the toggle

TLDR: Bahsei should still be meta, those changes won't change a lot and it also feels like ZOS like the idea of risk/reward but don't like when people people find ways of dealing with risk. If no one finds a way to deal with the risk it is just not gonna be used bc it's risk for a reward you know you won't be able to access.

EDIT: Forgot to talk about one thing. I think it's been pretty clear that feedback (at least on the combat related front) is like talking to a brick wall. We're told they have this vision they're building towards and they'e taking steps in this direction. That some things might be weird/broken but it's fine because they know where they're headed. Only thing i have to ask about this is ... do you want us to wait and play the game when you're done or? What's happening here, did we arrive at the party too soon? We can come back later if you want

Finedaible · February 2022

So much for their "Kiss-curse" philosophy.

Everest_Lionheart · February 2022

I’m watching toggle plars die to mechs that would barely hurt their non-vamp counterparts. A death sentence for having only 7K health because you are pushing 140K damage seems like one heck of a risk reward to me. At 7K health you pretty much die to everything.

Bahsei nerf I’m not sure I really get it but OK. It capped at 15% with zero mag giving it an effective cap of 14% which high end players pushed it only during execute. You had to almost always leave some mag for a shield or heal for some situations to stay alive making your effective use of the set probably around 11-12%. In fact the problem I encounte more often with this set is over sustaining and not getting enough out of it especially on players that can’t control their mag or predump before a fight. Bahsei was not a beginner friendly set. If they are going to cap it to reign endgame dps why not ramp it up faster and give diminishing returns to give non sweaty players a chance to use one of the strongest sets in the game.

Wyrd88 · February 2022

It's just "the base Vampire experience" in overland content is way more important then having different and interesting risk/reward tools for an endgame players. Insulting Dev Comment clearly indicates this.

Same goes with hybridisation of everything, which almost denies need for actually thinking on your build/spec, and simplifying rotation (hello 30 seconds dot from Carve). Not sure what we gonna see next, kinda scared of 30 seconds of using spamable with this durations lol. And the question is, where they'll stop with simplification and making everything more accessible. And there's another question: accessible for who? Overland is already braindead easy, and can be cleared without any game knowledge.

But whatever, I guess.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here, at this point.

BahometZ · February 2022

I share your sentiments exactly.

The developer's plan seems like a road trip where the destination is always just around the next corner. I know some people will say that's how it is with horizontal progression, gotta keep it fresh. But for those of us who've been here a while, and still enjoy playing the game, dev talk about trusting the process is pretty eye-rolling, as the player base has repeatedly foreseen and predicted issues, while buff/nerf merry-go-round patterns have become painfully obvious, and the process never ends.

As an aside to the Bahsei vs everything else situation, maybe there needs to be a source of minor slayer outside of sets? People might be more inclined to wear other light armour sets if minor slayer was provided elsewhere. Also, it's kind of hilarious that for all their efforts to hybridise we're still going to be in light armour running mostly mag skills, we just pickpocket stam for some more damage. This is entirely due to the game as it is currently designed.

Tannus15 · February 2022

BahometZ wrote: »

I share your sentiments exactly.

The developer's plan seems like a road trip where the destination is always just around the next corner. I know some people will say that's how it is with horizontal progression, gotta keep it fresh. But for those of us who've been here a while, and still enjoy playing the game, dev talk about trusting the process is pretty eye-rolling, as the player base has repeatedly foreseen and predicted issues, while buff/nerf merry-go-round patterns have become painfully obvious, and the process never ends.

As an aside to the Bahsei vs everything else situation, maybe there needs to be a source of minor slayer outside of sets? People might be more inclined to wear other light armour sets if minor slayer was provided elsewhere. Also, it's kind of hilarious that for all their efforts to hybridise we're still going to be in light armour running mostly mag skills, we just pickpocket stam for some more damage. This is entirely due to the game as it is currently designed.

i've been wanting a minor slayer version of slimecraw for wages.
would also be a great mythic.

would unlock a lot of set combinations

Dalsinthus · February 2022

You could say the same thing about the heavy attack sets. People found ways to make it work for pve and ZOS said “nope.” “Play as you want, but not that way.”

I’m not sad to see Bahsei brought down a notch as I personally hate the set design. It’ll still be BiS but some other options will be closer now. We need more mag set options as you’ve clearly said OP.

katorga · February 2022

This ability and its morphs are currently enabling incredibly polarizing gameplay; it feeds into an intense risk/reward mechanic that can often be mitigated heavily by specialized classes and builds that stack life steal, paired with deep knowledge of content and combat interactions.

That is how they view endgame players and theory crafters.

My opinion is that hybridization will further narrow the pool of meta pve and pvp sets, and really remove most of the benefit of buildcraft.

Finedaible · February 2022

In the back of my mind I know they will never state their full stance on player builds and the risk/reward philosophy but part of me is curious what that may be nowadays because none of their implementations of risk/reward mechanics have ever stayed around for long. The only nugget of information we have to go on is a random comment provided by Rob Garrett himself back in 2019 on what they meant by the term "kiss-curse":

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

"Kiss-Curse" is a term we use in design to describe the intentional pairing of both positive and negative effects on an individual item/ability/etc. The intent of the design pattern is to broaden the design possibility space (including more powerful versions of effects) and create more interesting choices for players when constructing their builds.

Just going on that, I'd say they have failed with vampire because I am hard pressed to think how they are supposed to provide players with more interesting build choices if we were never supposed to take advantage of more powerful bonuses in unique ways. I mean, what are we supposed to do with Mist Form now? How is nerfed Blood Frenzy an interesting choice? Fire vulnerability, Fighter's Guild vulnerability, and increased ability costs are already a huge downside to being vampire. Why even bother with vampire at all at this point if there's more curse than kiss?

Vevvev · February 2022

Finedaible wrote: »

So much for their "Kiss-curse" philosophy.

I know right? Moment players realize they don't need X to do Y the whole kiss curse thing falls on its face. They can get rid of X, not be burdened by it, and do Y even better than before after a bit of practice.

Who needs health when you have so much passive healing? With how they're changing it Blood Frenzy will be left on indefinitely for practically no cost. 2k health every 2 seconds? Single heal over time fixes that problem.

CP5 · February 2022

It would be nice if every update, ZOS could choose a half dozen or so sets that never see use and try to tweak them into something interesting. They have enough sets in game to tweak some to either create or enhance particular play styles, or have sets that could seem very powerful in some niche cases while being outclasses in others, but the fact that even some trial sets are considered little more than decon-fodder is just disappointing. But the only cycle they seem to want to maintain is to introduce a new, powerful set, then nerf it later down the line to make the newer content more enticing.

francesinhalover · February 2022

Wyrd88 wrote: »

It's just "the base Vampire experience" in overland content is way more important then having different and interesting risk/reward tools for an endgame players. Insulting Dev Comment clearly indicates this.

Same goes with hybridisation of everything, which almost denies need for actually thinking on your build/spec, and simplifying rotation (hello 30 seconds dot from Carve). Not sure what we gonna see next, kinda scared of 30 seconds of using spamable with this durations lol. And the question is, where they'll stop with simplification and making everything more accessible. And there's another question: accessible for who? Overland is already braindead easy, and can be cleared without any game knowledge.

But whatever, I guess.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here, at this point.

That vamp skill was op on gank/bomb builds.
Maybe now they can start buffing vamp in other areas.
Plus the skill can now be used more easily by other classes since it requires less healing.

katorga · February 2022

francesinhalover wrote: »

Wyrd88 wrote: »

It's just "the base Vampire experience" in overland content is way more important then having different and interesting risk/reward tools for an endgame players. Insulting Dev Comment clearly indicates this.

Same goes with hybridisation of everything, which almost denies need for actually thinking on your build/spec, and simplifying rotation (hello 30 seconds dot from Carve). Not sure what we gonna see next, kinda scared of 30 seconds of using spamable with this durations lol. And the question is, where they'll stop with simplification and making everything more accessible. And there's another question: accessible for who? Overland is already braindead easy, and can be cleared without any game knowledge.

But whatever, I guess.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here, at this point.

That vamp skill was op on gank/bomb builds.
Maybe now they can start buffing vamp in other areas.
Plus the skill can now be used more easily by other classes since it requires less healing.

in my opinion, it was a streamer skill used to drive views, but in real world use it was too much of a hassle to deal with. If I can bomb just as effectively without it.....

People use vamp for one reason, undeath.

Vevvev · February 2022

katorga wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

Wyrd88 wrote: »

It's just "the base Vampire experience" in overland content is way more important then having different and interesting risk/reward tools for an endgame players. Insulting Dev Comment clearly indicates this.

Same goes with hybridisation of everything, which almost denies need for actually thinking on your build/spec, and simplifying rotation (hello 30 seconds dot from Carve). Not sure what we gonna see next, kinda scared of 30 seconds of using spamable with this durations lol. And the question is, where they'll stop with simplification and making everything more accessible. And there's another question: accessible for who? Overland is already braindead easy, and can be cleared without any game knowledge.

But whatever, I guess.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here, at this point.

That vamp skill was op on gank/bomb builds.
Maybe now they can start buffing vamp in other areas.
Plus the skill can now be used more easily by other classes since it requires less healing.

in my opinion, it was a streamer skill used to drive views, but in real world use it was too much of a hassle to deal with. If I can bomb just as effectively without it.....

People use vamp for one reason, undeath.

Also Swarming Scion and Elusive Mist.

Saieden · February 2022

From a business standpoint, whether you like or agree with it or not, they are a massive body of players providing free playtesting.

Vaoh · February 2022

Saieden wrote: »

From a business standpoint, whether you like or agree with it or not, they are a massive body of players providing free playtesting.

From a business perspective? ZOS continually redoing their vision for combat every year and failing to address game performance issues before it got out of hand has driven away a massive portion of players.

Honestly if this game wasn’t an “Elder Scrolls” title it would never have made it this far.

Wyrd88 · February 2022

francesinhalover wrote: »

That vamp skill was op on gank/bomb builds.
Maybe now they can start buffing vamp in other areas.
Plus the skill can now be used more easily by other classes since it requires less healing.

Bombing with toggle was more risky then without, but offers bigger reward if you're able to succeed with it, which makes perfect sense.
And the main thig that makes vampire OP in PVP, Undeath passive, isn't even adressed here.

From PVE perspective, used where? In normal dungeons? Now this skill not even worth a slot on a skill bar.

But a lot of people (me including) are unhappy about this change not because of the nerf itself, but because of the Dev's statement. I.e. it getting nerfed simply because people dare to be good at this game and know combat and content.

BronzeCaiman · February 2022

Nerfing sets down to be in line with other sets is much easier than enchancing the other 400+ sets to be in line with them. The point of diversity in builds is mute because a lot of players just want what is best for preformance and not what is best for them or how they want to play, sets get nerfed because of the endgame communities dependence on them. Bashei doesnt even work on pets like blastbones and yet its still BiS for necro currently which is just rediculous IMO.

And after you stated Alkosh is for tanks even after it requires 6000 WD, and even though Crimson Oath was released, I know your mindset and others with it is what made me totally abandon endgame.

RitualSmoke · February 2022

I think the vision being built towards is leading to everyone running the same sets and having the same skills and abilities to make the game easy to balance like a fps, we get to choose different "guns" but its still just a you got shot or not situation.

imagine when everyone has a full mix of stam and mag gear, the same combos will rise to the top for every class. we have only classes to balance instead of class and stam or mag. it will practically cut the balancing issues in half for them

but after all the gear gets homogenized some classes will just outshine and make it where you need to have this class and this gear only to win and they will nerf it and then swap to next class flavor of the patch for the three months so on and so forth

doesurmindglow · February 2022

The bigger problem isn't to me a particular sense of hostility to theorycrafters, but rather this complete lack of intention that seems to arise from their changes.

In particular, I mean that the whole "risk/reward" meta is something they very intentionally sought after in earlier patches, and named as an important direction for the game to reward players with more power if they can competently manage the risks. Now, though, we've totally forgotten about that and are 100% on hybridization, so we're reversing the "risk/reward" concept with various nerfs as players didn't like it as much as we anticipated.

In a future patch, I fear they'll also be reversing hybridization, as there is already brewing considerable player backlash about the way it's homogenizing the top tier choices.

Finedaible · February 2022

Vevvev wrote: »

Finedaible wrote: »

So much for their "Kiss-curse" philosophy.

I know right? Moment players realize they don't need X to do Y the whole kiss curse thing falls on its face. They can get rid of X, not be burdened by it, and do Y even better than before after a bit of practice.

Who needs health when you have so much passive healing? With how they're changing it Blood Frenzy will be left on indefinitely for practically no cost. 2k health every 2 seconds? Single heal over time fixes that problem.

To be clear, I think risk/reward options ("kiss-curse"in ZoS-speak) are good for build depth and player choices, but it only makes sense if there are available means to pursue those greater bonuses. There is no point to a risk/reward mechanic without the possibility of overcoming the risk, even if only momentarily. Presently, in ZoS's vision, it would seem that they believe that simply granting players a false illusion of choice is good enough, but that is just shallow gameplay I would expect from the likes of Team Fortress 2 or some other casual game.

Eormenric · February 2022

Camelord wrote: »

TLDR: Bahsei should still be meta, those changes won't change a lot and it also feels like ZOS likes the idea of risk/reward but don't like when people find ways of dealing with risk. If no one finds a way to deal with the risk it is just not gonna be used bc it's risk for a reward you know you won't be able to access.

I think they have a history of being reactionary in the worst way. If everyone uses a set, don't make that set worse objectively--though in this case, it isn't doing anything--make it fail in more scenarios. No single build is supposed to dominate in every encounter. Why else do we have 500+ armor sets to choose from if some are supposed to be better in certain places than others?

Moving forward, have more resource-drain mechanics to kill Bahsei users. Have boss mechanics that involve killing groups of low health enemies to kill Relequen users. High-mobility encounters kills Siroria users. I think Roaring Opportunist and the HoF sets can live peacefully together, though Lokkestiiz is not even looked at now so make more mechanics that isolate players and gives them a synergy to activate (also good for Moondancer, though it still needs more). I have to disagree though and say Alkosh should belong on a dps. Why can't melee be support too? You think it just needs to be ranged? That's role-ist!

BronzeCaiman · February 2022

Finedaible wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Finedaible wrote: »

So much for their "Kiss-curse" philosophy.

I know right? Moment players realize they don't need X to do Y the whole kiss curse thing falls on its face. They can get rid of X, not be burdened by it, and do Y even better than before after a bit of practice.

Who needs health when you have so much passive healing? With how they're changing it Blood Frenzy will be left on indefinitely for practically no cost. 2k health every 2 seconds? Single heal over time fixes that problem.

To be clear, I think risk/reward options ("kiss-curse"in ZoS-speak) are good for build depth and player choices, but it only makes sense if there are available means to pursue those greater bonuses. There is no point to a risk/reward mechanic without the possibility of overcoming the risk, even if only momentarily. Presently, in ZoS's vision, it would seem that they believe that simply granting players a false illusion of choice is good enough, but that is just shallow gameplay I would expect from the likes of Team Fortress 2 or some other casual game.

The thing is there is the option of choice, for 90% of the game you can play entirely how you want. Endgame is constantly getting more and more impossible for your average player, so they are forced into using meta sets to stand a chance.

Bosses should not be burnable to skip mechanics, if you can burn a boss to skip something like enemy summons or portal spawns, by design the content is catering to the better players, who will optimize and only wear meta sets. Simply killing the boss faster is not enough, you get to skip the defining features of the fight too.

This game needs a solo mode for all group content, where you are forced to do the mechanics in order to advanced in the content. I played since beta I know almost every mechanic in this game. For new players, entering a V Dungeon or V Trial is like learning how to fly a plane but its full of passengers, if you screw up other people pay the price.

starkerealm · February 2022

Dalsinthus wrote: »

You could say the same thing about the heavy attack sets. People found ways to make it work for pve and ZOS said “nope.” “Play as you want, but not that way.”

It's a digression, but I loathe how that term gets mutilated. This isn't just on you, btw.

"Play how you want," only means you're not required* to PvP, or run dungeons, to progress as a player. (*Though, leaving things like continuous assault on the table is only gimping yourself.)

But, then we have the people who are like, "'play how you like,' should mean I can just put my cat on the controller, go make a sandwich, and still be just as competitive."

That said, I agree, ZOS has been way too trigger happy with some of the weirder builds builds over the years.

Everest_Lionheart · February 2022

BlackArgonian wrote: »

Finedaible wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Finedaible wrote: »

So much for their "Kiss-curse" philosophy.

I know right? Moment players realize they don't need X to do Y the whole kiss curse thing falls on its face. They can get rid of X, not be burdened by it, and do Y even better than before after a bit of practice.

Who needs health when you have so much passive healing? With how they're changing it Blood Frenzy will be left on indefinitely for practically no cost. 2k health every 2 seconds? Single heal over time fixes that problem.

To be clear, I think risk/reward options ("kiss-curse"in ZoS-speak) are good for build depth and player choices, but it only makes sense if there are available means to pursue those greater bonuses. There is no point to a risk/reward mechanic without the possibility of overcoming the risk, even if only momentarily. Presently, in ZoS's vision, it would seem that they believe that simply granting players a false illusion of choice is good enough, but that is just shallow gameplay I would expect from the likes of Team Fortress 2 or some other casual game.

The thing is there is the option of choice, for 90% of the game you can play entirely how you want. Endgame is constantly getting more and more impossible for your average player, so they are forced into using meta sets to stand a chance.

Bosses should not be burnable to skip mechanics, if you can burn a boss to skip something like enemy summons or portal spawns, by design the content is catering to the better players, who will optimize and only wear meta sets. Simply killing the boss faster is not enough, you get to skip the defining features of the fight too.

This game needs a solo mode for all group content, where you are forced to do the mechanics in order to advanced in the content. I played since beta I know almost every mechanic in this game. For new players, entering a V Dungeon or V Trial is like learning how to fly a plane but its full of passengers, if you screw up other people pay the price.

The disparity between the elite players and their nuke starts versus the regular endgame player going for clears or trifectas is huge though. Those elite players skipping mechs have been at that trial for several hours a day and several days or week. That zero portal double mini skip GH video looks great but the hours spent failing for that one perfect moment are huge.

Same for Godslayer portal skip which relies on a ridiculous amount of DOS upstairs while your downstairs team controls damage and all 3 players end up pinned at the end while the dots kill the mini. That strategy is such a huge risk and it’s not something that you just hop in there and do the first time.

Or let’s take it down a level and compare something slightly more tame like Yandir HM. Look at the nuke strat where you drop the boss down at position 1 and see only the first adder. Compare that to most endgame groups trying the same thing and they end up getting the gryphon on position 1 as well. It’s such a huge gap in overall DPS and yet it’s not quite as wide as it seems. I have a team that will go sub 50% every time at position 1 and another that is lucky to get sub 75%. One team been playing together for about a year and the other for about a month. Both teams have spectacular fails but the nuke strat team has about 3x the reps because deaths are swift as opposed to long and painful.

It’s those reps, all that experience that makes a world of difference. Now does changing vampire toggle make the strat more accessible to inexperienced players? In a word, no. Is it forcing elite endgame players to play more mechs? Also, no. It all feels like change for the sake of change. I feel like all we end up doing in the end is adding extra one shot mechs and boss health to the game to slow down the burn. I wish it was more creative than than but that’s all the game really is.