Why do we have to spoil other players' game?

RisenEclipse · February 2022

You're not being forced to ruin someone else's experience, you're choosing to. Don't confuse the two. Many people in here have given you different advice on how to gain AP without really fighting. So hopefully you will consider one of them for the future. If you don't want to PvP then don't. Find something other then war horn to use. But PvPers have had to slog through PvE content for their skills, so you're not going to get much sympathy for having to do that too.

I'd suggest you go with the repair walls and keeps in Cyro route, that was suggested. That is something you can do on your own, and no one is relying on you. You'd probably get less angry messages that way too. I do believe if you're in the area when a keep is taken, you'll get AP for that too. You can also go into Imp City and take districts too. If the pop is low enough, it's basically PvE since you're just killing npcs to grab the flags. Just do a few circuits around the city.

Wandering_Immigrant · February 2022

The most pathetic thing in all this is that it takes more work to unequip all your gear than to just go in with what you're wearing and run around light attacking people, and you're getting less AP this way which means you'll be running battlegrounds longer than you otherwise would be. You're putting in actual effort and getting less in return as a result than you would be with no effort put in at all. Incredible.

I would offer some words of encouragement, or maybe some advice, or tell you how to level those skill lines without engaging in any PvP at all. But, honestly, I hope you just give up and go play something else, I would hate to have you end up in my group for literally any activity at all.

DagenHawk · February 2022

This has been hashed over many times...

The game was originally designed for a PVP end game. It just didn't work. It's seems that the developers then saw that the game was hugely popular with casual players and a small but fiercely loyal PVP and Raid group.

I believe that Since the developers didn't want to make the same mistakes they did with Warhammer Online, they listened to what the players wanted and a large base of Casual players and TES enthusiast left the MMO's where they were being frankly treated like dirt for ESO After that ESO won game of the year for several years in a row and enjoyed critical and financial success.

The lessons learned were players who are non-competitive, collection and story centric players pay the bills and then some.

However some developers see to be stubborn to me, they refuse to give the largest portion of the player base simple request like Story options for Trials and Dungeons.

I don't think it is a matter of spoiling. In my experience many devs make the game they want to play instead of the game their customers want to play.

Edit: All if this is opinion not designed to insult anyone.

Dojohoda · February 2022

Stop spoiling the battleground match for your teammates. Go to Cyrodiil to level the skills.

dRudE · February 2022

DagenHawk wrote: »

This has been hashed over many times...

The game was originally designed for a PVP end game. It just didn't work. It's seems that the developers then saw that the game was hugely popular with casual players and a small but fiercely loyal PVP and Raid group.

I believe that Since the developers didn't want to make the same mistakes they did with Warhammer Online, they listened to what the players wanted and a large base of Casual players and TES enthusiast left the MMO's where they were being frankly treated like dirt for ESO After that ESO won game of the year for several years in a row and enjoyed critical and financial success.

The lessons learned were players who are non-competitive, collection and story centric players pay the bills and then some.

However some developers see to be stubborn to me, they refuse to give the largest portion of the player base simple request like Story options for Trials and Dungeons.

I don't think it is a matter of spoiling. In my experience many devs make the game they want to play instead of the game their customers want to play.

Edit: All if this is opinion not designed to insult anyone.

Ok, I’m going to let you in on a little bit of advice. Majorities don’t automatically have a right over minorities.

dRudE · February 2022

Theros wrote: »

I have PvP. I just hate it! I don't care at all about pvp. But...

1) ...I have to go PvP to level up my skills. Like for exemple War Horn.... So i go, but i don't even equip itens\wepons in there. So, my team is 3 vs 4 vs 4
2) ... i jyst move around and let TOP team kill me. That way, i hope it ends faster!
3) ... I realy dont understand... why ZoS force us players to spoil other players' game. I don't get it!
4) Just why?! This weak Endeavors is about PvP... why?! once i have to spoil 5 other players game. Just why i hate do do it?!

I realy dont understand. This is the only game, when you have to do PvP to spoil other players game. And even worse, Developers force us to make this. This is so crazy!

This logic right here is the cause of cancel culture. ‘I don’t like something so I don’t want anyone else to either’.

As others have stated, there are other ways to get the skills you desire, without purposely giving other players a hard time purely because you’re having a hard time.

Hurbster · February 2022

Are you sure you need Warhorn, OP? Most PvE players just want raps and Vigour and you can get raps by doing the intro quest. I grant you that you do need to do a bit of PVP to get Vigour but I (when I absolutely must do PVP) just chuck rocks at walls and then repair my own damage.

I do agree that ZoS forcing people to do content they don't wish to is bad game design, please just realise that PvP people have it just as bad with the Undaunted skill line.

VaranisArano · February 2022

DagenHawk wrote: »

This has been hashed over many times...

The game was originally designed for a PVP end game. It just didn't work. It's seems that the developers then saw that the game was hugely popular with casual players and a small but fiercely loyal PVP and Raid group.

I believe that Since the developers didn't want to make the same mistakes they did with Warhammer Online, they listened to what the players wanted and a large base of Casual players and TES enthusiast left the MMO's where they were being frankly treated like dirt for ESO After that ESO won game of the year for several years in a row and enjoyed critical and financial success.

The lessons learned were players who are non-competitive, collection and story centric players pay the bills and then some.

However some developers see to be stubborn to me, they refuse to give the largest portion of the player base simple request like Story options for Trials and Dungeons.

I don't think it is a matter of spoiling. In my experience many devs make the game they want to play instead of the game their customers want to play.

Edit: All if this is opinion not designed to insult anyone.

The "spoiling" I see here refers to the OP choosing to sit out or intentionally throw their Battlegrounds matches, leaving their team to fight shorthanded and with a player who's deliberately tanking their score in a Deathmatch.

I'm not sure what that has to do with non-competitive, collection and story centric players, because the vast majority of those types of players I've met don't decide to treat their teammates badly when they do go into PVP content.

I mean, I've got some sympathy for the players who just want the story and all the pretty collectibles/achievements/titles without having to do PVP, dungeons, arenas, trials, etc. They generally aren't looking to spoil other player's experience, just to get what they want with less effort than ZOS intended. I don't agree with their goal, but I get it.

OP, however, admits to spoiling BG matches. So I've got no sympathy for that.

Vevvev · February 2022

VaranisArano wrote: »

OP, however, admits to spoiling BG matches. So I've got no sympathy for that.

[snip] At the very least if you queue for this stuff you put in some effort. I don't care if you only light attack, you're at least attacking!

[edited for mild baiting]

DagenHawk · February 2022

VaranisArano wrote: »

[

VaranisArano wrote: »

The "spoiling" I see here refers to the OP choosing to sit out or intentionally throw their Battlegrounds matches, leaving their team to fight shorthanded and with a player who's deliberately tanking their score in a Deathmatch.

You know you are right...I completely missed the context, no one should mess with anyone else's experience...apologies to those I seemed to anger.

VaranisArano wrote: »

I mean, I've got some sympathy for the players who just want the story and all the pretty collectibles/achievements/titles without having to do PVP, dungeons, arenas, trials, etc. They generally aren't looking to spoil other player's experience, just to get what they want with less effort than ZOS intended. I don't agree with their goal, but I get it.

I respect that, I have some sympathy for those who just want to PVP...but out of the small group that does the vast majority seem to be really snarky to anyone else's playstyle...I guess there are reasons, but who am I to offer a solution.

dem0n1k · February 2022

The dumb thing is... unless the OP is dying to the winning team, every death, then it's possibly not making the BG go any faster.

TBH, this doesn't even bother me. So often in BGs I see players that won't leave the spawn, stay in crouch the whole match or run around like a mad chook. It doesn't change how I will play.. I will still stick with my group & try my best to get kills. It's a bummer to be down a useful player but it is what it is.

What does sometimes annoy me is when the losers that sit on spawns or perma-crouch send salty messages in team chat about how bad/unfair PVP is & how they aren't getting support from team mates. It's pretty frustrating to do your best for your team but still not win because you are down a player... then have to read some snarky group message about how 'we' all suck coz we didn't win the match from a player that did not even try.

kargen27 · February 2022

MMOs need three basic things for long term health of the game. New content, players repeating existing content and players doing a variety of existing content. New chapters and DLCs take care of new content. RNG takes care of repeating content. Endeavors, antiquities and other things help with repeating content and also help with doing a variety of content. Skills that are good for PvE but require participating in PvP help with players doing a variety of content. Same way mages, fighters and undaunted skills cause players to complete that content and repeat it. Armor found in trials is good for PvP builds. So players that concentrate on PvP go to those trials for that gear.
All these things are good for the long term health of the game. It keeps us playing longer.

Diminish · February 2022

How is this even a question when ~90% of the game is PvE centric? Those who PvP deserve to eat some cake too.

MindOfTheSwarm · February 2022

Pretty much all games that have PvP and PvE elements will give you objectives that require one or the other. Sometimes both. Ever played Destiny? That literally requires insane levels of PvP to get a top tier weapon. ESO is quite tame in its objectives to earn stuff. Outside of Maebroogha that is

. (Totally gonna kill her eventually).

DreamyLu · February 2022

I'm puzzled. You don't like daily endeavors? Just wait for tomorrow to do different, or, do 1 or 2 out of those that are not PvP.

To my eyes, OP gets upset about a problem that doesn't exist from the first: daily endeavors are not mandatory in any way and I can't imagine that missing to do 1 or 2 tasks one day can be so bad? Come on...

katanagirl1 · February 2022

I’m pretty sure you won’t get much AP by refusing to fight and just dying.

Sounds like you’re just wasting your time along with everyone else’s.

Narvuntien · February 2022

I suggest joining Cryodil and typing looking for group in zone chat, Then using siege engines to take and protect Keeps.

Siege usage is super important and requires very little actual skill to do.

Last time I had to do battlegrounds I was getting stuff for my PVE tank but I am a PVE tank so I just slapped on some impenetrable armor and became unkillable.

milllaurie · February 2022

Theros wrote: »

I have PvP. I just hate it! I don't care at all about pvp. But...

1) ...I have to go PvP to level up my skills. Like for exemple War Horn.... So i go, but i don't even equip itens\wepons in there. So, my team is 3 vs 4 vs 4
2) ... i jyst move around and let TOP team kill me. That way, i hope it ends faster!
3) ... I realy dont understand... why ZoS force us players to spoil other players' game. I don't get it!
4) Just why?! This weak Endeavors is about PvP... why?! once i have to spoil 5 other players game. Just why i hate do do it?!

I realy dont understand. This is the only game, when you have to do PvP to spoil other players game. And even worse, Developers force us to make this. This is so crazy!

I only pvp in this game. And I hate that to get gear I have to go pve. I would love getting all gear from Pvp rewards.
I would love getting monster helms and shoulders for AP consistently so I would not have to do same pledges for years.
I would love to get undaunted passives, psijic skill line, mages guild, fighters guild in the alliance skill lines.
But oh well, you probably have it worse by having to train ONE skill line (that is doable in one evening btw).

xilfxlegion · February 2022

Theros wrote: »

I have PvP. I just hate it! I don't care at all about pvp. But...

1) ...I have to go PvP to level up my skills. Like for exemple War Horn.... So i go, but i don't even equip itens\wepons in there. So, my team is 3 vs 4 vs 4
2) ... i jyst move around and let TOP team kill me. That way, i hope it ends faster!
3) ... I realy dont understand... why ZoS force us players to spoil other players' game. I don't get it!
4) Just why?! This weak Endeavors is about PvP... why?! once i have to spoil 5 other players game. Just why i hate do do it?!

I realy dont understand. This is the only game, when you have to do PvP to spoil other players game. And even worse, Developers force us to make this. This is so crazy!

i dislike pvp --- so i bought a metric ton of repair kits and went and fixed keep walls and doors after battles happened there --slow - but effective.

ZOS_Icy · February 2022

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary baiting in addition to some back and forth from this thread.

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This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Thank you for your understanding.

etchedpixels · February 2022

DagenHawk wrote: »

The lessons learned were players who are non-competitive, collection and story centric players pay the bills and then some..

It's not exactly new - Richard Bartle (MUD) was writing about the different types of player psychology back in the late 1980s and there was the whole Aber/Diku/LP versus TinyMUD/LambdaMoo etc giant yawning playstyle divide even back then, and PvP/PvE divides even in the former category.

You see what you describe in many modern MMO games - they are all adopting a lot of "PvE is truely solo except in some places, or if you group with people" along with PvP zones. It's a very popular model - particularly as you get all the MMO business advantages (subscriptions, cash shops, customer data mining, selling aggregated personal data to marketers) without needing most of the servers because most people aren't actually playing an MMO but a solo game with text chat and this makes players and accountants happy.

What people are missing though is that you have a large collection of players who like other things, and you build a game to cater to as many of them as you can. You don't want or need to get rid of things like PvP, fishing or RP just to make another group happy. You just ignore them. Four people role playing lunch in a tavern don't generally impact my end game experience, nor does the fact someone else has been sat in an imaginary house for five hours moving a chair around whilst I was dying in HoF.

There's also a real disconnect between the forum and actual players IMHO, at least to judge from the more newbie/casual guilds I am in. A lot of players who actually don't do whitestrakes because PvP scary also don't do Undaunted, because dungeons scary. During the undaunted event I often take groups through fungal grotto who are going solely because they want their event tickets and don't really want to be there. Nobody I hope is suggesting we also also get rid of PvE events with tickets because they are also too scary for many casual and mostly solo players ?

A lot of players don't even do events, or collect tickets. They don't have yet another flappy pet or a skin they never wear. The world doesn't end. They didn't fall for the FOMO.

If you don't like an aspect of a game - don't bother. It's just a game so enjoy it. One day your pile of meaningless imaginary houses and pets will be turned off and disappear and nobody will care.

Vulkunne · February 2022

Theros wrote: »

I have PvP. I just hate it! I don't care at all about pvp. But...

1) ...I have to go PvP to level up my skills. Like for exemple War Horn.... So i go, but i don't even equip itens\wepons in there. So, my team is 3 vs 4 vs 4
2) ... i jyst move around and let TOP team kill me. That way, i hope it ends faster!
3) ... I realy dont understand... why ZoS force us players to spoil other players' game. I don't get it!
4) Just why?! This weak Endeavors is about PvP... why?! once i have to spoil 5 other players game. Just why i hate do do it?!

I realy dont understand. This is the only game, when you have to do PvP to spoil other players game. And even worse, Developers force us to make this. This is so crazy!

Its not crazy. Please don't spoil our game by trying to force unnecessary changes when we've all been waiting a long time already to have other more important changes made.

Secondly, this game is a reflection of the Elder Scrolls lore and that's where PvP originates from. If they go against the lore or cut out the parts that you don't like that harms the game as a whole.

Mythgard1967 · February 2022

etchedpixels wrote: »

DagenHawk wrote: »

The lessons learned were players who are non-competitive, collection and story centric players pay the bills and then some..

There's also a real disconnect between the forum and actual players IMHO, at least to judge from the more newbie/casual guilds I am in. A lot of players who actually don't do whitestrakes because PvP scary also don't do Undaunted, because dungeons scary. During the undaunted event I often take groups through fungal grotto who are going solely because they want their event tickets and don't really want to be there. Nobody I hope is suggesting we also also get rid of PvE events with tickets because they are also too scary for many casual and mostly solo players ?

THIS! I am even one of these players. I did dungeons...but ONLY those I could solo. I have discovered that dungeons arent scary and have been doing the group DLC dungeons and even a couple of trials.

THAT said......I found PVP much less scary than Dungeons. In fact; I still do. I enjoy RvR type PVP and have always disliked the battleground style due to that fear of judgement because its not what you are comfortable with. I have found that the battlegrounds are ALSO fun. I only wish I could do any of the other modes than Deathmatch so I could check them out.

EinionYrth · February 2022

Ishtarknows wrote: »

This week's endeavours has a purely pve option if you're interested: Kill 180 foes with class abilities. These foes don't have to be player characters you know ...

Note that foes includes one shot goats sheep squirrels etc. Took me less than half an hour.

Kwik1 · February 2022

I kind of agree with the OP here, as I personally hate PvP also, but I still try my hardest.

Personally, they need to make it simple. PvP skill lines ONLY work in PvP areas, and PvE skill lines ONLY work in PvE.

It is incredibly unfair they put a skill like Warhorn which is almost a required skill in a lot of PvE content behind a PvP wall. ESO isn't the only company that does this, and they aren't as bad as a lot of others, but I wish game companies would stop forcing people to play content they don't want to. Just make each skill line only work in those areas so that warhorn only worked in PvP spots and it would eliminate the need for PvE players to get it, simply.

And please don't say "Don't get the skill if you don't like PvP". It doesn't work like that for some skills. Some of the PvP skills work WAY to good in PvE to not get.

I have no grudges against PvP players and I hope they have fun, but game companies need to stop forcing gameplay on players.

agelonestar · February 2022

Theros wrote: »

I have PvP. I just hate it! I don't care at all about pvp. But...

1) ...I have to go PvP to level up my skills. Like for exemple War Horn.... So i go, but i don't even equip itens\wepons in there. So, my team is 3 vs 4 vs 4
2) ... i jyst move around and let TOP team kill me. That way, i hope it ends faster!
3) ... I realy dont understand... why ZoS force us players to spoil other players' game. I don't get it!
4) Just why?! This weak Endeavors is about PvP... why?! once i have to spoil 5 other players game. Just why i hate do do it?!

I realy dont understand. This is the only game, when you have to do PvP to spoil other players game. And even worse, Developers force us to make this. This is so crazy!

More than 90% of the game is PVE. The 10% (or less) that's PVP is generally broken and receives far less love than the PVE elements elsewhere in the game. When I say far less, I mean PVP receives an infinitesimal about of time from ZoS, relatively speaking.

Many people play the game solely for the PVP element. Some play both. Some see PVP as the "end game". But they all know that anyone from an opposing alliance is fair game (even if some will leave a lone quester, most won't).

So, I would encourage you not to complain too much about a part of the game that doesn't interest you. Instead, join a group and get stuck in (there's always a group you can join and there is always some safety in numbers), or simply don't use the skills that are part of the Alliance War.

PVP is tough to get into, but it's addictive once you do. There are plenty of players out there who will happily help you with your build, your skills, and all sorts of other tips to first stay alive, second hold your own, and finally to feel like you're getting somewhere.

Good luck !

Mesite · February 2022

I learned a lot about 4 man parties from Battlegrounds. I don't usually do PvP but I enjoy the events when I do take part. It's all about helping out your fellow team mates.

ectoplasmicninja · February 2022

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'm not sure what that has to do with non-competitive, collection and story centric players, because the vast majority of those types of players I've met don't decide to treat their teammates badly when they do go into PVP content.

Non-competitive, collection, and story centric player here. I'm all about exploration and questing and motifs and lore and roleplaying. But every Midyear Mayhem I hop on my otherwise abandoned PvP healer, who has an actual PvP build, and I go into Cyrodiil and save lives for the cause. I get tickets and AP and gear, and because PvP is so low-stakes in the scheme of things it can be enjoyable even if you die a lot. It costs me nothing but riding back to the fight or to a different one. And if I don't feel like battle, I can go repair walls, and I still get AP and it still helps. Seeing other players is not mandatory.

Much like in real life, I sometimes do content to get things that I want, even if I don't love the content. I don't love Lair of Maarselok, but I want to fill out my collections. But I also have the choice to never run it and to live with the collection unfilled. I don't mind that Alliance War skills are locked into certain content, that doesn't take away my choice - I can decide how much I really need Purge and act accordingly.

McTaterskins · February 2022

Bottom line?

This game was originally designed and marketed to have PvP be a major part of it based on the 3 banners war.

It's why myself and many others are even here to begin with. This is just fact. I'm sorry.

Yes, over time, things evolved to push a lot more PvE content via trials, dungeons, and overland stuff. Because that sort of things makes a nice amount of money. Yes, that is also fact.

The two segments of the game play very differently from each other. This holds true to many a game of it's kind though.

Summary? It is what it is. If you want the skills unlocked, items, outfits, etc. etc. etc. from it? You just gotta do it. They'd have to make a lot of changes to the base game and base design itself in order to pander more to one side or the other.

Other fun point: It is widely underestimated and/or underappreciated as to how many of us play the game for both aspects and consider the two elements being intertwined to be quite a nice caveat.

hafgood · February 2022

Kwik1 wrote: »

I kind of agree with the OP here, as I personally hate PvP also, but I still try my hardest.

Personally, they need to make it simple. PvP skill lines ONLY work in PvP areas, and PvE skill lines ONLY work in PvE.

[snip]. What exactly is a PvE skill line? I see Class, Weapon, Armour, World, Guild, Alliance War, Racial and Craft.

I don't see PvE nor do I see PvP. I see Alliance War though. Alliance War skills are increased through gaining AP, just as makes guild by books, fighters guild by killing daedra, etc.

You can get the Alliance War skills without actually doing any PvP, many ways have been suggested. No one is forced to PvP, you can even get the skills without doing any PvP content if you are prepared to wait long enough as we often get AP in the monthly rewards. Although it is worth doing the tutorial in Cyrodiil for the AP and skill points.

[edited for baiting]