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The Black Market and ESO
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robert✭✭✭WhiteQueen wrote: »SNIP
If you like this game and this genre, perhaps it is time to step up and do something about this as a community.
Making the game a little more difficult, or inconvenient is a small price to pay.
"Small price to pay." Possibly for you. For others it's a death knell. A lot of the less social players earn their cash with small private trades.
Perhaps, but I imagine that this also applies to the vast majority of RMT as well.
So, for the sake of the game, get a little more social.
I don't usually reuse comments on Forums but you seem to be "special" so I will make an exception.
Stalin would be proud of you
Maybe Stalin is what this genre needs.
I said it was an egregious step. I have no doubt that many people will cry a vast river of tears.
However, the bottom line is that ZOS needs to aggressively make it as difficult as possible for RMT to exist in their game. Removing the ability for player to player trades will go a long way towards making this happen.
The RMTers, I guess, will go find greener pastures.
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Ospoon✭✭Arsenic_Touch wrote: »This is a terrible idea and does nothing to address the mail system which renders your suggestion pointless. Are you going suggest they disable mailing other players too?
Not sure if this follows from what I said. I am solely talking about the RMT trading in game.
I'm sure others have replied to this, but I don't want to scroll through the posts. How exactly would they eliminate trade specific to RMT without harming normal players? It's not worth the effort their coders would have to go through to create specific scripts to detect 'possible' bots and then block mail and trade. It's much easier to just GM mass-kill accounts and hope that regular players don't get caught in the swipes.
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nudel✭✭✭✭✭No removing player to player trades will do absolutely nothing to remove RMT from the game. Example: Every single game that does not have player-to-player trading and has RMT!!
Seriously this only hurts players. Even those who don't use this for avoiding the guild system enjoy trading with their friends. I trade probably 50-100 times a day with my SO, who I'm leveling with. We split up the crafting professions at the start of the game. However, loot is instanced and we also like to gather nodes for eachother. Under your system, we would have to create a guild, invite random ppl to get a bank, put our items in the bank, hope no one takes those items before each other gets to them, and then withdraw them....What a waste of time.
The only way to remove RMT from a game is to completely remove itemization and character progression. If there are no drops and no gold, no one will be able to buy and sell items. If there are no levels, then no one will want to buy accounts. However at that point, you're putting this game into a completely different genre, one which many current players did not sign up for.Edited by nudel on April 30, 2014 10:13AM1 -
robert✭✭✭Arsenic_Touch wrote: »This is a terrible idea and does nothing to address the mail system which renders your suggestion pointless. Are you going suggest they disable mailing other players too?
Not sure if this follows from what I said. I am solely talking about the RMT trading in game.
I'm sure others have replied to this, but I don't want to scroll through the posts. How exactly would they eliminate trade specific to RMT without harming normal players? It's not worth the effort their coders would have to go through to create specific scripts to detect 'possible' bots and then block mail and trade. It's much easier to just GM mass-kill accounts and hope that regular players don't get caught in the swipes.
I am not sure I follow your objection here.
Right now, it would seem that RMT is as easy as one in-game player opening a trade window with another in-game player.
If you remove this ability, then the only way to exchange goods is through a guild store.
No additional coding necessary, though something to highlight suspicious trades within the guild store, if such does not already exist, might be required.
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Duckfather✭✭Zenimax could do worse than look at how Eve Online have dealt with this.
They created an item called a PLEX (Pilot License EXtension) which can be bought with real money (about twice the monthly subscription fee). This is a token which can be used to give 1 months subscription, or can be used for many in game services such as character transfers, character portrait changes etc. It's also tradeable in game. While this means that some people who are cash rich in game can play for free by buying game time with game money, many, many others buy these from the Eve store for in game cash.
The net result is that there is another constant revenue stream for CCP (the makers of Eve) and in game RMT is almost non-existent. Effectively, people who buy PLEX are paying 2 x a monthly subscription (on top of their subscription) to allow one other person to play free, just so they get some in game money. People who want a quick in game cash boost are happy. People who can play for free are happy. And CCP are more than happy
Of course, because of the 'unique' economy of ESO, that may not work in this circumstance, but a variation on the idea may have some impact.0 -
cjmarsh725b14_ESO✭✭✭✭This has got to be the single worse thing you could do to the game economy, far worse than the damage done by the gold sellers. The guild store is not meant to be the only way to buy and sell, as it's rudimentary implementation clearly shows, and removing the primary way to trade in a trade economy makes no sense whatsoever.
Your motivation is a good one, I completely agree with the sentiment of eliminating gold sellers and RMT whenever and wherever possible. However, your solution would do more harm than good and I think you need to take another look at other methods that can be used.2 -
Islyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Exactly. Trading is AWESOME I trade weapon drops and other stuff with my friends OFTEN - it is part of what's FUN!Nox_Aeterna wrote: »Honestly , where people even get these crazy ideas lols.
Member of the Old Guard - Closed Betas 20131 -
Tannakaobi✭✭✭✭✭The best way to get rid of the cheaters is to make them worthless, less than worthless. The best gear should be bop or profession made with bop matts. Skill changes should be cheap, same as mounts. Bump up the prices on repairs to counter this. Add passives to make it easier to get the matts you need.
There should be four ways to get the top gear.
1) You make it with bop matts.
2) You loot it from the top level dungeons.
3) You earn it in PVP.
4) You buy it in a guild. (See below)
You could also make it so that these bop items 'could' be traded, but only in guild stores or from guild member to guild member. Add 'penalties' to guilds that cheat, starting with warnings and up to trade bans/guild removal.
@jaytin44 makes a good point about people not wanting to be in these trade guilds and I agree. The solution is easy. Make it so that guilds can be much smaller as in two or three people, only add a time frame before you can start trading or even a personal guild level. Two weeks seems reasonable. The idea being that cheaters cannot keep creating small guilds over and over again in order to sell the gear/gold for real money.
This would make it much harder to cheat, and much easier to investigate. No solution will please everyone, but there you go. It's just my opinion.
I would also suggest backing this up with a faction based Auction House. This would keep the guild trade simple and make it better to buy the noddy stuff you need while leveling. All the expensive items that will sell for lots of gold should be the rare novelty items/pets/dyes/mounts. Stuff that you don't need to enjoy the game but is really fun to have or looks awesome.
I don't have any idea how possible all this would be, but it would certainly help with the spammers and bots.
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nudel✭✭✭✭✭*snip*
Right now, it would seem that RMT is as easy as one in-game player opening a trade window with another in-game player.
If you remove this ability, then the only way to exchange goods is through a guild store.
Ever heard of the mail system? Or did you want to abolish that as well.
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Nox_Aeterna✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well , i guess the huge backlash from everyone was enough to show how absurd this idea is."Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
-Hanlon's razor2 -
robert✭✭✭*snip*
Right now, it would seem that RMT is as easy as one in-game player opening a trade window with another in-game player.
If you remove this ability, then the only way to exchange goods is through a guild store.
Ever heard of the mail system? Or did you want to abolish that as well.
Yes, this is obviously not part of the guild store trade system, so it would have to go as well.0 -
robert✭✭✭Nox_Aeterna wrote: »Well , i guess the huge backlash from everyone was enough to show how absurd this idea is.
Actually, I do think it would make ESO much less attractive to Gold Sellers.
Since that is the desired goal, I have yet to see any good argument as to why this is absurd.0 -
TieFighter✭✭✭bind on pickup sounds goodDa'Hui DC imperial mage dragonknight(retired but retained)
Hand Saryn Valor EP dunmer templar(mage/healer)
Pergan Asuul AD dunmer dragonknight(dps firemage)
Mi'Mosa EP imperial nightblade(stamina)
Limu'Kai EP Sahxleel dragonknight(vampire mage)0 -
norrisnick✭✭✭Um... from the sounds of things you probably should have stuck with Skyrim. No gold sellers there...Edited by norrisnick on April 30, 2014 10:21AM0
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norrisnick✭✭✭Nox_Aeterna wrote: »Well , i guess the huge backlash from everyone was enough to show how absurd this idea is.
Actually, I do think it would make ESO much less attractive to Gold Sellers.
Since that is the desired goal, I have yet to see any good argument as to why this is absurd.
The desired goal should be to create a game that is fun to play online. With others. Which necessitates interaction with others. Not a guild store UI. Seriously... you're arguing for the next single player TES. ESO is not for you.Edited by norrisnick on April 30, 2014 10:23AM0 -
nudel✭✭✭✭✭It is absurd because you should not be forced to join or make a guild in order to socialize. You should not be forced to join or make a guild in order to trade with friends. You should not be cut off from the economy for not joining or making a guild.
I love the guild system and I'm in several.
I also love the trading system and use it all the time.
Goldsellers are already forming guilds and inviting people to them. So your suggestion would not stop RMT. Period.0 -
robert✭✭✭norrisnick wrote: »Nox_Aeterna wrote: »Well , i guess the huge backlash from everyone was enough to show how absurd this idea is.
Actually, I do think it would make ESO much less attractive to Gold Sellers.
Since that is the desired goal, I have yet to see any good argument as to why this is absurd.
The desired goal should be to create a game that is fun to play online. With others. Which necessitates interaction with others. Not a guild store UI. Seriously... you're arguing for the next single player TES. ESO is not for you.
If you thought about your post, you might realize just how contradictory it is...0 -
robert✭✭✭It is absurd because you should not be forced to join or make a guild in order to socialize. You should not be forced to join or make a guild in order to trade with friends. You should not be cut off from the economy for not joining or making a guild.
I love the guild system and I'm in several.
I also love the trading system and use it all the time.
Goldsellers are already forming guilds and inviting people to them. So your suggestion would not stop RMT. Period.
And you would be free to join a Goldseller's guild, if such was your choice.
That is exactly the point...0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I love this game and as such I wish that ZOS would take the egregious step, to some, of removing player-to-player trades.
Trading should be done only through the guild store system. It will make suspect activity easier to identify.
When a suspect activity is discovered, the guild as a whole could then be investigated and the guilty parties dealt with.
At worst, such will keep the cheaters playing with themselves and allow the rest of us to simply ignore them as they will have no impact on our game play due to the nature of the guild based economy.
The economy is already fragmented and terrible enough. Please don't let this obsessive fear of bots impacting this game's economy isolate it even further.
And besides, you are free to trade only with your guild if you wish. No one is forcing you to do otherwise.
But for those of us who are not deathly afraid of bots manipulating us - we should be able to freely and conveniently trade with each other.
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robert✭✭✭I love this game and as such I wish that ZOS would take the egregious step, to some, of removing player-to-player trades.
Trading should be done only through the guild store system. It will make suspect activity easier to identify.
When a suspect activity is discovered, the guild as a whole could then be investigated and the guilty parties dealt with.
At worst, such will keep the cheaters playing with themselves and allow the rest of us to simply ignore them as they will have no impact on our game play due to the nature of the guild based economy.
The economy is already fragmented and terrible enough. Please don't let this obsessive fear of bots impacting this game's economy isolate it even further.
And besides, you are free to trade only with your guild if you wish. No one is forcing you to do otherwise.
But for those of us who are not deathly afraid of bots manipulating us - we should be able to freely and conveniently trade with each other.
You would be free to join the bot guild...
Or, even have a bot join your guild, if you prefer...0 -
PBpsy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Duckfather wrote: »Zenimax could do worse than look at how Eve Online have dealt with this.
They created an item called a PLEX (Pilot License EXtension) which can be bought with real money (about twice the monthly subscription fee). This is a token which can be used to give 1 months subscription, or can be used for many in game services such as character transfers, character portrait changes etc. It's also tradeable in game. While this means that some people who are cash rich in game can play for free by buying game time with game money, many, many others buy these from the Eve store for in game cash.
The net result is that there is another constant revenue stream for CCP (the makers of Eve) and in game RMT is almost non-existent. Effectively, people who buy PLEX are paying 2 x a monthly subscription (on top of their subscription) to allow one other person to play free, just so they get some in game money. People who want a quick in game cash boost are happy. People who can play for free are happy. And CCP are more than happy
Of course, because of the 'unique' economy of ESO, that may not work in this circumstance, but a variation on the idea may have some impact.
I don't know if that would work as well in here since compared to to the game economy in EVE this game's economy doesn't even exists. From what I see in this game the economy isn't fleshed out enough to warrant the existence of RMT .Is the market for gold for vamp bites, and daedric motifs so damn huge? Haven't the a majority people already maxed out BS/Clothier and researched a bunch of items to 5/6 traits? In this game it's possible to be almost self-sufficient and with a small well organized guild of friends you wouldn't even need to touch gold with the exception of repairs, horses and bags. I really can't see RMT as such a huge problem to warrant an action that would inconvenience most players considerably.Edited by PBpsy on April 30, 2014 10:34AMESO forums achievementsProud fanboiElitist jerkTrollHaterFan of icontested(rainbow colors granted)0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I love this game and as such I wish that ZOS would take the egregious step, to some, of removing player-to-player trades.
Trading should be done only through the guild store system. It will make suspect activity easier to identify.
When a suspect activity is discovered, the guild as a whole could then be investigated and the guilty parties dealt with.
At worst, such will keep the cheaters playing with themselves and allow the rest of us to simply ignore them as they will have no impact on our game play due to the nature of the guild based economy.
The economy is already fragmented and terrible enough. Please don't let this obsessive fear of bots impacting this game's economy isolate it even further.
And besides, you are free to trade only with your guild if you wish. No one is forcing you to do otherwise.
But for those of us who are not deathly afraid of bots manipulating us - we should be able to freely and conveniently trade with each other.
You would be free to join the bot guild...
Or, even have a bot join your guild, if you prefer...
I don't understand your point.
Nor do I want to join a bot guild....
I just don't want this game forcing me to only be able to trade with certain guilds because of this irrational fear people have of bots controlling the economy.
I would not doubt it if some of the people in here have nightmares of bots selling them things while they sleep.Edited by Jeremy on April 30, 2014 10:34AM0 -
robert✭✭✭I love this game and as such I wish that ZOS would take the egregious step, to some, of removing player-to-player trades.
Trading should be done only through the guild store system. It will make suspect activity easier to identify.
When a suspect activity is discovered, the guild as a whole could then be investigated and the guilty parties dealt with.
At worst, such will keep the cheaters playing with themselves and allow the rest of us to simply ignore them as they will have no impact on our game play due to the nature of the guild based economy.
The economy is already fragmented and terrible enough. Please don't let this obsessive fear of bots impacting this game's economy isolate it even further.
And besides, you are free to trade only with your guild if you wish. No one is forcing you to do otherwise.
But for those of us who are not deathly afraid of bots manipulating us - we should be able to freely and conveniently trade with each other.
You would be free to join the bot guild...
Or, even have a bot join your guild, if you prefer...
I don't understand your point.
Nor do I want to join a bot guild....
I just don't want this game forcing me to only be able to trade with certain guilds because of this irrational fear people have of bots controlling the economy.
This has nothing to do with a fear of bots.
This has, strictly, to do with RMT in this game.
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norrisnick✭✭✭Oh I thought about it. You want the item system of a single player game. Loot or buy/sell w/ vendor.
Any moves planned by Zenimax with the intent of 'curbing' the RMT market that also inconveniences the legitimate player base needs to be seriously reconsidered. I don't care if something would remove 100% of all gold spammers/botters/etc... If it hampers real players interacting with other real players in a way that is fun and fulfilling in an online gaming setting, it can't happen. So many idioms to use here. Cutting your nose off to spite your face. Tossing out the baby with the bathwater.
It's unfathomable to me that removing peer to peer trading in an online game would ever be preferable to putting up with gold sellers/spammers. One is exponentially more harmful to the game than the other.3 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I love this game and as such I wish that ZOS would take the egregious step, to some, of removing player-to-player trades.
Trading should be done only through the guild store system. It will make suspect activity easier to identify.
When a suspect activity is discovered, the guild as a whole could then be investigated and the guilty parties dealt with.
At worst, such will keep the cheaters playing with themselves and allow the rest of us to simply ignore them as they will have no impact on our game play due to the nature of the guild based economy.
The economy is already fragmented and terrible enough. Please don't let this obsessive fear of bots impacting this game's economy isolate it even further.
And besides, you are free to trade only with your guild if you wish. No one is forcing you to do otherwise.
But for those of us who are not deathly afraid of bots manipulating us - we should be able to freely and conveniently trade with each other.
You would be free to join the bot guild...
Or, even have a bot join your guild, if you prefer...
I don't understand your point.
Nor do I want to join a bot guild....
I just don't want this game forcing me to only be able to trade with certain guilds because of this irrational fear people have of bots controlling the economy.
This has nothing to do with a fear of bots.
This has, strictly, to do with RMT in this game.
The RMT industry is made up of Bots. Those are not real people who are spamming your chat channels trying to sell gold or farming dungeon bosses endlessly.
But if you like, you can read my posts with RMT inserted with I say bots if that helps ^^Edited by Jeremy on April 30, 2014 10:40AM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭norrisnick wrote: »
It's unfathomable to me that removing peer to peer trading in an online game would ever be preferable to putting up with gold sellers/spammers. One is exponentially more harmful to the game than the other.
I agree. Definitely a case where the cure is worse than the disease.
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I love this game and as such I wish that ZOS would take the egregious step, to some, of removing player-to-player trades.
Trading should be done only through the guild store system. It will make suspect activity easier to identify.
When a suspect activity is discovered, the guild as a whole could then be investigated and the guilty parties dealt with.
At worst, such will keep the cheaters playing with themselves and allow the rest of us to simply ignore them as they will have no impact on our game play due to the nature of the guild based economy.
You assume out of 10's of thousands that everyone is in a guild? And even worst you think all guilds have enough players to have a store worth using?
sheesh what a terrible idea dude!
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clocksstoppe✭✭✭✭✭
✭bro, if you have no *** idea how trading or guild stores work, dont make dumb threads with useless suggestions.
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robert✭✭✭norrisnick wrote: »Oh I thought about it. You want the item system of a single player game. Loot or buy/sell w/ vendor.
Any moves planned by Zenimax with the intent of 'curbing' the RMT market that also inconveniences the legitimate player base needs to be seriously reconsidered. I don't care if something would remove 100% of all gold spammers/botters/etc... If it hampers real players interacting with other real players in a way that is fun and fulfilling in an online gaming setting, it can't happen. So many idioms to use here. Cutting your nose off to spite your face. Tossing out the baby with the bathwater.
It's unfathomable to me that removing peer to peer trading in an online game would ever be preferable to putting up with gold sellers/spammers. One is exponentially more harmful to the game than the other.
How, exactly, does using the existing guild store system equate to "the item system of a single player game"?
Logic much?0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭norrisnick wrote: »Oh I thought about it. You want the item system of a single player game. Loot or buy/sell w/ vendor.
Any moves planned by Zenimax with the intent of 'curbing' the RMT market that also inconveniences the legitimate player base needs to be seriously reconsidered. I don't care if something would remove 100% of all gold spammers/botters/etc... If it hampers real players interacting with other real players in a way that is fun and fulfilling in an online gaming setting, it can't happen. So many idioms to use here. Cutting your nose off to spite your face. Tossing out the baby with the bathwater.
It's unfathomable to me that removing peer to peer trading in an online game would ever be preferable to putting up with gold sellers/spammers. One is exponentially more harmful to the game than the other.
How, exactly, does using the existing guild store system equate to "the item system of a single player game"?
Logic much?
Because it decreases the market size and constrains it so bad that a lot of players (like myself) wind up doing more business with NPCs than they do other players. So as a result it resembles more of a single player game economy.
If you want to encourage a vibrant economy between players, you need to give them the tools to do so. Not lock them away in small guilds you have to be a member of to access.
Edited by Jeremy on April 30, 2014 10:48AM0