Templar skill changes - a better approach

Amorpho · February 2022

The latest changes to templar skills (specifically puncturing strikes/jabs and sunfire) express a positive concept, but a wrong approach as they predominantly favour PVE gameplay over than PVP.

A stamplar will continue to use rally as source of burst heal and major brutality, despite the changes. And this for sustain reasons. Having major savagery incorporated in biting jabs enabled stamplars to run one less skill with 100% uptime. This, in turns, enabled them to run tristat pots, replenishing all their pools and in a very cheap way.

On the other hand, what magplar lacked was a class based access to major sorcery, that they however now relegated to biting jabs (stamina based) rather than puncturing strikes... 🤦🏻‍♂️

A far better solution in my opinion would be to attach major sorcery and brutality on sun fire and keep major prophecy and savagery on biting jabs! This approach would not only benefit PVE gameplay, but PVP too.

But this is just what I think. What about you? Any templar reps here?

Brrrofski · February 2022

I'm talking about PvP stamplar here....

So my first thought (key word as I don't have PTS) was"well, do I drop rally and can now use HTD?"

But having your primary burst heal drawing from an off star probably won't work. I don't want no mag left and need to heal.

Especially that I'll probably want to drop tripots for crit pots.

I'm not a fan. I'll still probably use rally (it also has minor endurance after all) and be doubling up on major brutality. And probably lose savagery unless I swap pots or lose a skill to slot cammo hunter.

There's probably room somewhere else for sorcery/brutality in the Templar tool kit.

I don't even know how many magplara would use sweeps as a sorcery buff if it had it tbh. You probably want it elsewhere in PvP so you can still get it while being defensive. Savagery while being offensive only is less of an issue imo.

James-Wayne · February 2022

I actually prefer major sorcery/brutality on Jabs for both PvP and PvE, I dont want it on Sunfire because its a slow, boring DOT that does nothing for my builds. Savagery can come from Fighters Guild as it already does which also gives damage buff. In PvE it means I can drop werewolf skill for the passive buff for another skill. In PvP I run Dual and S/B so I'm ok with it but I understand people run 2H Vate but not everyone does in PvP.

gariondavey · February 2022

PvP stamplar here. Really don't like brutality on jabs.

Currently - jabs + rally
I get - a semi on demand burst heal, major brutality, major savagery on offense, minor endurance
In 2 skills

Pts - jabs + rally
I get - a semi on demand burst heal, majority brutality, minor endurance
In 2 skills

Pts - jabs + camo hunter
I get - major brutality, 3 percent wd on offense bar, a bit of uptime on minor berserk, major savagery that does not carry over to defense bar if it was up
In 2 skills

This is not a win. Losing crit (option 2) or losing defensive and sustain (option 3) are not good, especially on a class that has survival issues even while using bubble + vigor + er + rally + run.

Losing bar space because of this frustrates me because I'm already short on it.

Getting honor the dead is nice, but again, bar space.

With the exception of power of the light being better than purifying light, stamplar is just inferior to magplar.

With the hybridization, there is very little reason to use jabs in PvP over sweeps.

Stx · February 2022

Or we could add these buffs onto a class buff ability, like the currently never used aura (I can't even remember the name). Radiating aura? Hell, the one with aoe magicka steal.

This ability is so beyond useless since they added magickasteal as a status effect. If they added 40 seconds of Major power buffs it might see some use in some game modes.

ealdwin · February 2022

Stx wrote: »

Or we could add these buffs onto a class buff ability, like the currently never used aura (I can't even remember the name). Radiating aura? Hell, the one with aoe magicka steal.

This ability is so beyond useless since they added magickasteal as a status effect. If they added 40 seconds of Major power buffs it might see some use in some game modes.

Restoring Aura -> Radiant Aura / Repentence

It has a nice passive effect to—Minor Endurance, Intellect, and Fortitude just for slotting. Right now though, it isn't worth the slot.

gariondavey · February 2022

Stx wrote: »

Or we could add these buffs onto a class buff ability, like the currently never used aura (I can't even remember the name). Radiating aura? Hell, the one with aoe magicka steal.

This ability is so beyond useless since they added magickasteal as a status effect. If they added 40 seconds of Major power buffs it might see some use in some game modes.

Great idea.

neferpitou73 · February 2022

I wish they'd do something to make the AOE burst heal more attractive.

huskandhunger · February 2022

they never buff templar, the class sucks, you should become a werewolf like me ^_^

SeaUnicorn · February 2022

Brrrofski wrote: »

I'm talking about PvP stamplar here....

So my first thought (key word as I don't have PTS) was"well, do I drop rally and can now use HTD?"

HTD will also target everyone around you over you, not very reliable as a self heal.

Amorpho · February 2022

So far, virtually every PVP Stamplar I've spoken to will not drop rally. I did consider Honour the Dead instead of rally, but that thing will suck up all of my magicka. In that case, I would just run a Magicka Templar with PotL. But I would still need access to major sorcery, that is however on jabs! 🤦🏻‍♂️ I really like the suggestion to have major sorcery and brutality attached to Radiating Aura. I've been playing templar since day 1 and I don't think I have ever used that skill!

MashmalloMan · February 2022

Yeah, nailed it, the change doesn't consider the context of the game and how people actually play.

With the changes to hybridized scaling,morphs should never be a choice of a common named buff/debuff vs another unique effect. There are so many scenario's where they quickly become redundant.

It's like 2 steps forward, 1 step back. It's been proven time and time again that they should avoid this and it's why some skills are seeing less use.

They've done a good job on these:

Sorc's Crit Surge vs Power Surge - More healing vs aoe healing.
DK's Flames of Oblivion vs Cauterize. Aoe + damage vs healing.
Warden's Green Lotus vs Lotus Blossum - Duration vs more healing + aoe.
NBs Power Extraction vs Sap Essense - Damage reduction vs aoe healing.

While almost in the same breath doing a bad job on these:

Templar's Jabs vs Sweeps. Healing vs Brutality/Sorcery.
Warden's Subterranean Assault vs Deep Fissure - Double Hit vs Breach.
Mage's Guild Structured Entropy vs Degeneration - Healing vs Brutality/Sorcery.
Bow's Venom Arrow vs Poison Injection - Interupt + Brutality/Sorcery vs Execute Damage.

Jman100582 · February 2022

I don't understand why people want to put major brutality/sorcery on a skill that only really benefits magplars instead of just adding a universal buff skill that both variants can use. There are many, many useless skills that could easily fill this role. Healing ritual and morphs, solar barrage morph of solar flare, sun shield and morphs. Any of those are much better candidates for a whole skill rework than just switching the buffs on two abilities because you still want to use rally, and magplars want a source from in-class skills. My suggestion was already to put brutality/sorcery on healing ritual, have one morph give an aoe heal on par with combat prayer and the other to give minor expedition. Then ofc streamline the cost to something reasonable.

Stamplars keep saying that they will still use rally for the recovery, and they won't use honor the dead/breath of life as a burst heal. I myself am not in this boat, as there are plenty of ways to sustain mag very well on a stam toon. especially next patch. If they switch the buffs like people are saying and put sorcery and brutality on sun fire, stamplars still won't use it. They still will have to use an out of class buff. Make a skill that's competitive to rally for stamplars already. Templar has always had the identity of the healing class, give stam that identity too

Edit: there is also the option of adding sorcery/brutality to the base skill. Mag morph snares and heals, stam morph snares and does whatever else. Maybe more dmg to the non-primary target. But both morphs have the brutality/sorcery buff

gariondavey · February 2022

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Yeah, nailed it, the change doesn't consider the context of the game and how people actually play.

With the changes to hybridized scaling,morphs should never be a choice of a common named buff/debuff vs another unique effect. There are so many scenario's where they quickly become redundant.

It's like 2 steps forward, 1 step back. It's been proven time and time again that they should avoid this and it's why some skills are seeing less use.

They've done a good job on these:
Sorc's Crit Surge vs Power Surge - More healing vs aoe healing.

DK's Flames of Oblivion vs Cauterize. Aoe + damage vs healing.

Warden's Green Lotus vs Lotus Blossum - Duration vs more healing + aoe.

NBs Power Extraction vs Sap Essense - Damage reduction vs aoe healing.

While almost in the same breath doing a bad job on these:
Templar's Jabs vs Sweeps. Healing vs Brutality/Sorcery.

Warden's Subterranean Assault vs Deep Fissure - Double Hit vs Breach.

Mage's Guild Structured Entropy vs Degeneration - Healing vs Brutality/Sorcery.

Bow's Venom Arrow vs Poison Injection - Interupt + Brutality/Sorcery vs Execute Damage.

Great post

Amorpho · February 2022

Jman100582 wrote: »

Edit: there is also the option of adding sorcery/brutality to the base skill. Mag morph snares and heals, stam morph snares and does whatever else. Maybe more dmg to the non-primary target. But both morphs have the brutality/sorcery buff

I definitely agree with your edit! But leave major savagery on Biting Jabs! It's already fantastic as it is!

Entegre · February 2022

The problem with Templar jabs is that it is flooded with utilities. When we activate it we get minor protection, enemies get burning light damage, with magical morph we get healing and snare, with stamina morph we used to get savagery and now we get brutality/sorcery… oh and the skill hits the first enemy for full damage and 1/3 others so it is somewhat aoe.

It is too much for a skill, Templars can do better if we spread these bonus around a bit…

maxjapank · February 2022

Entegre wrote: »

The problem with Templar jabs is that it is flooded with utilities. When we activate it we get minor protection, enemies get burning light damage, with magical morph we get healing and snare, with stamina morph we used to get savagery and now we get brutality/sorcery… oh and the skill hits the first enemy for full damage and 1/3 others so it is somewhat aoe.

It is too much for a skill, Templars can do better if we spread these bonus around a bit…

It really isn't flooded with utilities. Being a channel, jabs has always snared the Templar. So to overcome this, we need the ability to also snare the enemy. We are also at the mercy of being cc'd when stuck in our channeled ability, thus the minor protection was added. But minor protection activates when we use any skill in the tree. It is not tied to jabs.

Burning light is a sore spot. Being able to proc this outside of jabs or shards is unrealistic. It should never have been changed.

I am not very happy with Major Brutality being put on Biting jabs. So many assume that we will use Camo Hunter for the crit or Sun fire. Personally, I would love to se Major Brutality/Sorcery attached to Restoring Aura. But it's been my experience that once the pts patch notes come out, then this is what we are stuck with. At least in the past, it was possible to get reconsideration. But under the current combat leads, they have pretty much made up their minds, regardless of what the community wants.

Amorpho · February 2022

maxjapank wrote: »

Entegre wrote: »

The problem with Templar jabs is that it is flooded with utilities. When we activate it we get minor protection, enemies get burning light damage, with magical morph we get healing and snare, with stamina morph we used to get savagery and now we get brutality/sorcery… oh and the skill hits the first enemy for full damage and 1/3 others so it is somewhat aoe.

It is too much for a skill, Templars can do better if we spread these bonus around a bit…

It really isn't flooded with utilities. Being a channel, jabs has always snared the Templar. So to overcome this, we need the ability to also snare the enemy. We are also at the mercy of being cc'd when stuck in our channeled ability, thus the minor protection was added. But minor protection activates when we use any skill in the tree. It is not tied to jabs.

Burning light is a sore spot. Being able to proc this outside of jabs or shards is unrealistic. It should never have been changed.

I am not very happy with Major Brutality being put on Biting jabs. So many assume that we will use Camo Hunter for the crit or Sun fire. Personally, I would love to se Major Brutality/Sorcery attached to Restoring Aura. But it's been my experience that once the pts patch notes come out, then this is what we are stuck with. At least in the past, it was possible to get reconsideration. But under the current combat leads, they have pretty much made up their minds, regardless of what the community wants.

That's my fear exactly. Reading other threads, many templars are saying the same thing and I sure hope that ZOS will listen to us and change this skill, but knowing them I'm skeptical... 🤦🏻‍♂️

Brrrofski · February 2022

SeaUnicorn wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

I'm talking about PvP stamplar here....

So my first thought (key word as I don't have PTS) was"well, do I drop rally and can now use HTD?"

HTD will also target everyone around you over you, not very reliable as a self heal.

Yeh, that too. I play solo mostly so not a huge deal, but it does happen.

On a separate note ZOS, pleas make rapid regen a self heal only. Sick of my main heal on a mag sorc going to everyone but me when I'm on 20% health and could really do with it.

mmtaniac · February 2022

I like possibility to use class burst heal finally ok change.

I don't like changes to passives no changes again we still have useles passives like Soul gem (Soul gem passive just need some usefull secondary effect) or again nothing about merging passive Illuminate and Prism into one thing similiar to Dragonknight Mountain Blessing.

This way we have one free slot for free sustain passive .Templar neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed free sustain or just remove cost from rune, like Warden Netch. On templar you need always have minimum 2k stamina regen if you play full stamina build with one magicka ability. Sometimes i don't see my stamina can't regen. Or maybe it's some bugs or wt....

When i play DK i can have easy 1k stamina regen and 0 sustain problems thanks to free FULL BAR REGEN thanks to ultimate.
I don't ask about that but sustain is lacking .

Crown · February 2022

PvP Plar of all types here. The priority should be getting jabs to work in lag. As it stands, as soon as we get close to prime time any Plar damage build becomes unplayable - so most of these discussions are irrelevant outside of theory (or low population times).

TechMaybeHic · February 2022

ealdwin wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Or we could add these buffs onto a class buff ability, like the currently never used aura (I can't even remember the name). Radiating aura? Hell, the one with aoe magicka steal.

This ability is so beyond useless since they added magickasteal as a status effect. If they added 40 seconds of Major power buffs it might see some use in some game modes.

Restoring Aura -> Radiant Aura / Repentence

It has a nice passive effect to—Minor Endurance, Intellect, and Fortitude just for slotting. Right now though, it isn't worth the slot.

I was just going to say, would be cool if Restoring Aura at base gave major sorcery and brutality. Would make it worth while

Necrotech_Master · February 2022

i use a stamplar primarily for pve

doing vateshran back bar for the rally buff, but with this current planned change i will probably rethink this and just get a different arena back bar weapon for another skill to get more dmg/buff and i already have some ideas that would work on my current build

Amottica · February 2022

In reading this, it seems to be someone's preferred approach instead of a better way. It is probably based more on their playstyle than if it is PvP or PvE.

And as others have pointed out, the use of the skill triggers a lot of buffs. While some seem to try to dismiss those buffs, one cannot look at skills in such a vacuum as it creates a deceptive picture that I expect Zenimax can see right through.

MashmalloMan · February 2022

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i use a stamplar primarily for pve

doing vateshran back bar for the rally buff, but with this current planned change i will probably rethink this and just get a different arena back bar weapon for another skill to get more dmg/buff and i already have some ideas that would work on my current build

Just use mages guild degeneration, then you can use whatever weapon/skill combo you like.

Plus, for pve, dps is a little more important than a burst heal like Rally, Vat 2H is solid, but again, any of the damage oriented Weapons would do better like MA 2H, MA Bow, MA Destro or BRP DW.

This is of course instead of just using pots, assuming he stam morph changes somehow.

Amorpho · February 2022

Amottica wrote: »

In reading this, it seems to be someone's preferred approach instead of a better way. It is probably based more on their playstyle than if it is PvP or PvE.

And as others have pointed out, the use of the skill triggers a lot of buffs. While some seem to try to dismiss those buffs, one cannot look at skills in such a vacuum as it creates a deceptive picture that I expect Zenimax can see right through.

It's not a matter of personal preference, but a PVP perspective. Major sorcery/brutality on Jabs makes no sense whatsoever. It just doesn't fit the gameplay, even after hybridisation. For rally still remains the go-to skill for major brutality. It offers a stamina based burst heal (HTD can't be sustained on a stamplar as it already uses a number of magicka based skills) plust stamina sustain, plus vateshraan 2h buff. It's not particularly helpful for PVE stamplar either since they would either run a vateshraan 2h, or 2w +bow and run pots for brutality and/or savagery (to save bar space).

Unlike other skills hybridization, this one just doesn't work. Major brutality/sorcery just shouldn't be on a spammable - especially when there are already class skills that are totally useless.

Kodzy · February 2022

Why no one writes about "Dark Flare"?
hardly anyone uses it
let's do it instant throw without "Major Defile"

Mayrael · February 2022

Amorpho wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

In reading this, it seems to be someone's preferred approach instead of a better way. It is probably based more on their playstyle than if it is PvP or PvE.

And as others have pointed out, the use of the skill triggers a lot of buffs. While some seem to try to dismiss those buffs, one cannot look at skills in such a vacuum as it creates a deceptive picture that I expect Zenimax can see right through.

It's not a matter of personal preference, but a PVP perspective. Major sorcery/brutality on Jabs makes no sense whatsoever. It just doesn't fit the gameplay, even after hybridisation. For rally still remains the go-to skill for major brutality. It offers a stamina based burst heal (HTD can't be sustained on a stamplar as it already uses a number of magicka based skills) plust stamina sustain, plus vateshraan 2h buff. It's not particularly helpful for PVE stamplar either since they would either run a vateshraan 2h, or 2w +bow and run pots for brutality and/or savagery (to save bar space).

Unlike other skills hybridization, this one just doesn't work. Major brutality/sorcery just shouldn't be on a spammable - especially when there are already class skills that are totally useless.

Knock knock, NBs would like to have a word with you. They also have major sorcery/brutality on spamable AoE. The difference is that it is never used in PvP outside of bombing because of inferior damage to any other spamable. I get it that it would be nice for templars to have MS/MB on some self buff to apply it at will but TBH templars are already top dogs, no further buffs are required, at least not untill other classes will be set at the same level with templars.

wheresbes · February 2022

Mayrael wrote: »

Knock knock, NBs would like to have a word with you. They also have major sorcery/brutality on spamable AoE. The difference is that it is never used in PvP outside of bombing because of inferior damage to any other spamable. I get it that it would be nice for templars to have MS/MB on some self buff to apply it at will but TBH templars are already top dogs, no further buffs are required, at least not untill other classes will be set at the same level with templars.

What's an "AoE spammable" now? XD Sap is not a spammable, try weaving with that and tell me how it goes

If you bomb you want to have major sorcery BEFORE you sap, so before you cast your ult. Imagine casting sap, "hello, I'm here!" and THEN 0.5 cast time for tether, surely it's going to work...

I doubt someone in PVP start attacking with degen or sap, they're not great openers.

It would be equivalent if it was on swallow or concealed.

Anyway, I don't think it's good to have a major buff on a spammable, it seems better to have it on a buff skill like rally, or since you mentioned NBs, on siphoning. The same goes for Templar IMO.

West93 · February 2022

Stamplar main here since 2017 (pvp)

I personally like the change to jabs very much, I run smoked bear haunch food and imperial race for mag sustain, currently I run dw/2h with whirling blades for execute, I am stuck with 2h because of no other source for major brutality and burst heal, with this change I'll drop rally use honor the dead instead which is superior on demand burst heal than rally and switch to 1h/shield backbar which will provide spellwall ulti that was missing in my current dw/2h set up.

Tbh major brutality and Bol was the only thing I wished on my stamplar all these years and I can finally build up for dw/snb set up.

West93 · February 2022

SeaUnicorn wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

I'm talking about PvP stamplar here....

So my first thought (key word as I don't have PTS) was"well, do I drop rally and can now use HTD?"

HTD will also target everyone around you over you, not very reliable as a self heal.

If you play solo without any friendly targets (1vx) or dueling, it will only heal you.

Rally is terrible, its only good heal once every 15 seconds. Tldr Rally is RNG, HTD is reliable.

I will 100% drop rally and use Bol/Htd.

Always was a fan of sustain sets, If I feel smoked bear haunch isn't enough for mag sustain I'll add wretched vitality backbar or perhaps engine guardian.

Finally it will be end of 2h stigma and opens up for dw/snb dw/bow builds etc.