Templar skill changes - a better approach

gariondavey

West93 wrote: »

Stamplar main here since 2017 (pvp)

I personally like the change to jabs very much, I run smoked bear haunch food and imperial race for mag sustain, currently I run dw/2h with whirling blades for execute, I am stuck with 2h because of no other source for major brutality and burst heal, with this change I'll drop rally use honor the dead instead which is superior on demand burst heal than rally and switch to 1h/shield backbar which will provide spellwall ulti that was missing in my current dw/2h set up.

Tbh major brutality and Bol was the only thing I wished on my stamplar all these years and I can finally build up for dw/snb set up.

No 350/450 wd enchant with that set up.
Where are you getting major savagery?
You now lose 1 bar slot, which we had very little of anyways.

Hymzir

So, after reading patch notes for PTS, my take on it all was:"Good grief. Here we go again..."

- sigh -

The changes, no matter how much they are marketed as something that makes things more open and accessible and easier to plan around, will change everything on a fundamental level. Again. And that means how all the individual pieces fit together.

Having finally a class based source for Major Brutality/Sorcery as a Templar is welcome news indeed, but tacking it on the stam morph of jabs is just bad design.

Especially since getting it via Rally as stam has been the standard for years, and it wont make a licking difference to a mag build if it is on the stam morph of the spammable around which the whole stupid class is designed.

I really don't know what to say. The proposed change doesn't really mean anything, you still need rally for the heals and 2H for the execute, though I guess I could test and see how jesus beam works as off- resource execute on a stam build...

But then again, that is a channel and works better at range, and jabs is a melee ability and 2h exe is instant and can be woven, so.... Eh?

But this leads me to my actual point of contention - Stop forcing jabs as the one stop choice for templars! Not everyone wants to play melee-plars! It's bad enough the way burning light was changed from a proc to a counter, meaning it only really activates reliably via jabs, but now this thing then. I just wish the class supported something else than jabbity-stabbity-jab-jab-pokiness, but I guess that is a pipe dream at this point.

In any case, I have a feeling that Templars are gonna end up being even more of a dysfunctional mess after these changes go live, and we are gonna have to wait two or three updates before ZOS gets around to fixing all the issues this redesign is gonna cause.

I guess I'll stick playing a sorc 'till then

Mayrael

wheresbes wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Knock knock, NBs would like to have a word with you. They also have major sorcery/brutality on spamable AoE. The difference is that it is never used in PvP outside of bombing because of inferior damage to any other spamable. I get it that it would be nice for templars to have MS/MB on some self buff to apply it at will but TBH templars are already top dogs, no further buffs are required, at least not untill other classes will be set at the same level with templars.

What's an "AoE spammable" now? XD Sap is not a spammable, try weaving with that and tell me how it goes If you bomb you want to have major sorcery BEFORE you sap, so before you cast your ult. Imagine casting sap, "hello, I'm here!" and THEN 0.5 cast time for tether, surely it's going to work...

I doubt someone in PVP start attacking with degen or sap, they're not great openers.

It would be equivalent if it was on swallow or concealed.

Anyway, I don't think it's good to have a major buff on a spammable, it seems better to have it on a buff skill like rally, or since you mentioned NBs, on siphoning. The same goes for Templar IMO.

I totally agree with you. NB's asked for major sorcery on skills like Grim Focus or Siphoning for ages, but was never listened to, so why would templars get better source of major sorcery/brutality?

West93

gariondavey wrote: »

West93 wrote: »

Stamplar main here since 2017 (pvp)

I personally like the change to jabs very much, I run smoked bear haunch food and imperial race for mag sustain, currently I run dw/2h with whirling blades for execute, I am stuck with 2h because of no other source for major brutality and burst heal, with this change I'll drop rally use honor the dead instead which is superior on demand burst heal than rally and switch to 1h/shield backbar which will provide spellwall ulti that was missing in my current dw/2h set up.

Tbh major brutality and Bol was the only thing I wished on my stamplar all these years and I can finally build up for dw/snb set up.

No 350/450 wd enchant with that set up.
Where are you getting major savagery?
You now lose 1 bar slot, which we had very little of anyways.

I would rather lose major savagery and gain dw/snb setup with spell wall ult and spin to win, if I really wanted I could drop living dark and slot camohunter instead.

Currently I run pariah with plaguebreak which gives me enough damage for open world cyro or solo BG, I don't need another damage set, but if I really wanted I could get away with smoked bear haunch atm I am already use 4 mag skills without problems in sustaining.

You gain 1 bar by losing rally not other way around.

West93

Hymzir wrote: »

So, after reading patch notes for PTS, my take on it all was:"Good grief. Here we go again..."

- sigh -

The changes, no matter how much they are marketed as something that makes things more open and accessible and easier to plan around, will change everything on a fundamental level. Again. And that means how all the individual pieces fit together.

Having finally a class based source for Major Brutality/Sorcery as a Templar is welcome news indeed, but tacking it on the stam morph of jabs is just bad design.

Especially since getting it via Rally as stam has been the standard for years, and it wont make a licking difference to a mag build if it is on the stam morph of the spammable around which the whole stupid class is designed.

I really don't know what to say. The proposed change doesn't really mean anything, you still need rally for the heals and 2H for the execute, though I guess I could test and see how jesus beam works as off- resource execute on a stam build...

But then again, that is a channel and works better at range, and jabs is a melee ability and 2h exe is instant and can be woven, so.... Eh?

But this leads me to my actual point of contention - Stop forcing jabs as the one stop choice for templars! Not everyone wants to play melee-plars! It's bad enough the way burning light was changed from a proc to a counter, meaning it only really activates reliably via jabs, but now this thing then. I just wish the class supported something else than jabbity-stabbity-jab-jab-pokiness, but I guess that is a pipe dream at this point.

In any case, I have a feeling that Templars are gonna end up being even more of a dysfunctional mess after these changes go live, and we are gonna have to wait two or three updates before ZOS gets around to fixing all the issues this redesign is gonna cause.

I guess I'll stick playing a sorc 'till then

You don't need rally for heals anymore you gain living dark better scaling and Htd/Bol as well.

Stamwardens always had arctic blast for heals and didn't need rally, stamplars are now in same ship, rally will only become optional and not needed like in current patch right now.

Most of stamclass need 2h for spammable dizzy and this is not issue for stamplars anyways, since bol/htd can burst heal and jabs gives brutality this open ups for more build diversity.

gariondavey

West93 wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

West93 wrote: »

Stamplar main here since 2017 (pvp)

I personally like the change to jabs very much, I run smoked bear haunch food and imperial race for mag sustain, currently I run dw/2h with whirling blades for execute, I am stuck with 2h because of no other source for major brutality and burst heal, with this change I'll drop rally use honor the dead instead which is superior on demand burst heal than rally and switch to 1h/shield backbar which will provide spellwall ulti that was missing in my current dw/2h set up.

Tbh major brutality and Bol was the only thing I wished on my stamplar all these years and I can finally build up for dw/snb set up.

No 350/450 wd enchant with that set up.
Where are you getting major savagery?
You now lose 1 bar slot, which we had very little of anyways.

I would rather lose major savagery and gain dw/snb setup with spell wall ult and spin to win, if I really wanted I could drop living dark and slot camohunter instead.

Currently I run pariah with plaguebreak which gives me enough damage for open world cyro or solo BG, I don't need another damage set, but if I really wanted I could get away with smoked bear haunch atm I am already use 4 mag skills without problems in sustaining.

You gain 1 bar by losing rally not other way around.

So my point has always been: we lose savagery and in order to get it we need to lose a bar slot or give up survival like living dark.
Templar has crit passives. Not having savagery sucks.
Idk what your bars would even be with that.
Spin 2 win, jabs, vigor, living dark, javelin
Race against time, pierce armor(?) or elude or htd?, potl (?), extended ritual, rune

West93

gariondavey wrote: »

West93 wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

West93 wrote: »

Stamplar main here since 2017 (pvp)

I personally like the change to jabs very much, I run smoked bear haunch food and imperial race for mag sustain, currently I run dw/2h with whirling blades for execute, I am stuck with 2h because of no other source for major brutality and burst heal, with this change I'll drop rally use honor the dead instead which is superior on demand burst heal than rally and switch to 1h/shield backbar which will provide spellwall ulti that was missing in my current dw/2h set up.

Tbh major brutality and Bol was the only thing I wished on my stamplar all these years and I can finally build up for dw/snb set up.

No 350/450 wd enchant with that set up.
Where are you getting major savagery?
You now lose 1 bar slot, which we had very little of anyways.

I would rather lose major savagery and gain dw/snb setup with spell wall ult and spin to win, if I really wanted I could drop living dark and slot camohunter instead.

Currently I run pariah with plaguebreak which gives me enough damage for open world cyro or solo BG, I don't need another damage set, but if I really wanted I could get away with smoked bear haunch atm I am already use 4 mag skills without problems in sustaining.

You gain 1 bar by losing rally not other way around.

So my point has always been: we lose savagery and in order to get it we need to lose a bar slot or give up survival like living dark.
Templar has crit passives. Not having savagery sucks.
Idk what your bars would even be with that.
Spin 2 win, jabs, vigor, living dark, javelin
Race against time, pierce armor(?) or elude or htd?, potl (?), extended ritual, rune

My point is at this current patch I can't make dw/snb or any other variant without 2h because I need rally and with new changes I could, HTS is way more better heal than rally and if you play magplar you surely understand this.

Dropping out rally opens a skill slot, major savagery has been nerfed in the past and with it you still have a low % crit chance.

My dw/snb set up would be:

biting jabs, potl, whirling blades, rat, javelin

vigor ,ritual ,htd, rune, living dark

If I really wanted major savagery then

biting jabs, potl, whirling blades, camohunter, javelin

vigor, ritual, htd, rune, rat

also can drop rat and use ritual as snare removal, many flexible options depends on play style


TLDR this is only a nerf if you insist on slotting rally, which with having access to htd and brutality you don't need to.

For example how many stamdens run rally instead of arctic blast? All of them either use momentum or shuffle and as stamplar you could always run rat or shuffle (stamdens don't need rat due to class kit having major expedition already)

West93

Just another thought if ZOS revert the change and jabs doesn't give major brutality, I would still 100% would use HTD/Bol since this was the most missing thing on stamplar for me (reliable on demand burst heal) and possibly together with living dark and of course vigor for better healing which stamplar always lacked.

In such circumstances I don't have a skill slot for these skills I listed, because I would need rally for brutality buff (I am not gonna use pots for brutality) and I need to sacrifice something else for it.

Take out that major savagery and give my stamplar a magplar like healing, unblockable cc (javelin change which ZOS made too), no need to use rally or degeneration anymore (since it also gives now major brutality). This opens up build diversity for different weapon options, could potentially theorycraft resto backbar if you wanted. Heck maybe even we will see return of healthplars with resto/snb using radiant ward with it getting buffed (again no need for rally or degeneration)? What else is there more to ask?

gariondavey

@West93 you really think you can sustain htd + living dark + extended ritual + race against time with just bear haunch? That's like 1200 no cp regen.
You'll have 15k or so mag.
Living dark, er, htd all cost 4.5k mag or so.
I think you'll need atro stone too.

gariondavey

Also not stacking sd seems like a bad idea. You get minor sorcery. But stacking sd and stam won't make your potl as good, maybe better just to use purifying light. But then you aren't even stamplar anymore.

mmtaniac

Bear Hunch + 1 infused tristat regen is enough for magicka sustain on stamina templar , you can use tristat potion sometimes too.
Extra magicka regen from support tree (if you use Major Protection) or minor regens from Repentance , debuff from magicka spells that give magicka regen. Managing magicka is easier on stamplar than stamina.

merpins

Look: I don't think it should be "templar skill needs balancing for PVP" this or "necromancer skill needs balancing for PVE" that. Zos just needs to bite the bullet, and balance PVE and PVP separately. I do not care how much work it takes for them to partition the game to a state where they can balance the two modes of gameplay separately, but by balancing both game modes separately, they could have skills that work completely differently in pvp than they do in pve, and allow you to toggle pvp and pve differences in your house so you can test both. It's kind of ridiculous at this point, they can make decent changes for one game mode that will ruin things in the other. This particular change is pretty harmless, but still.

Balance pve and pvp separately, Zos. You're wasting too much time fixing things that break and balancing things that get unbalanced by changes you make when you could just take the time you need to make the infrastructure that would allow you to balance both game modes separately.

West93

gariondavey wrote: »

@West93 you really think you can sustain htd + living dark + extended ritual + race against time with just bear haunch? That's like 1200 no cp regen.
You'll have 15k or so mag.
Living dark, er, htd all cost 4.5k mag or so.
I think you'll need atro stone too.

Imperial gives 6% cost reduction to passives it does make a difference to sustain. I am also using tri stat potions as well which gives more mag regen, currently on live I sustain fine 4 mag skills (rat, living dark, toppling charge, ritual) I'll replace toppling to javelin next patch so thats 4 mag skills again.

I get around 1500+ mag regen buffed with tri stat pot currently and 15k max mag with all prismatic glyphs on body and as I said if I feel I need more regen I could backbar wretched vitality or either use torc mythic or engine guardian etc not a big deal.

Also I am not a vampire so I don't have cost increase in skills.

West93

gariondavey wrote: »

Also not stacking sd seems like a bad idea. You get minor sorcery. But stacking sd and stam won't make your potl as good, maybe better just to use purifying light. But then you aren't even stamplar anymore.

Yeah but magplars will be stuck having to use degeneration or momentum/rally, while stamplar will get 1 extra skill slot and potl is better with minor fracture and stamina javelin is better as well since magicka morph knocks people out of jab/sweeps range.

Hymzir

West93 wrote: »

Hymzir wrote: »

So, after reading patch notes for PTS, my take on it all was:"Good grief. Here we go again..."

- sigh -

The changes, no matter how much they are marketed as something that makes things more open and accessible and easier to plan around, will change everything on a fundamental level. Again. And that means how all the individual pieces fit together.

Having finally a class based source for Major Brutality/Sorcery as a Templar is welcome news indeed, but tacking it on the stam morph of jabs is just bad design.

Especially since getting it via Rally as stam has been the standard for years, and it wont make a licking difference to a mag build if it is on the stam morph of the spammable around which the whole stupid class is designed.

I really don't know what to say. The proposed change doesn't really mean anything, you still need rally for the heals and 2H for the execute, though I guess I could test and see how jesus beam works as off- resource execute on a stam build...

But then again, that is a channel and works better at range, and jabs is a melee ability and 2h exe is instant and can be woven, so.... Eh?

But this leads me to my actual point of contention - Stop forcing jabs as the one stop choice for templars! Not everyone wants to play melee-plars! It's bad enough the way burning light was changed from a proc to a counter, meaning it only really activates reliably via jabs, but now this thing then. I just wish the class supported something else than jabbity-stabbity-jab-jab-pokiness, but I guess that is a pipe dream at this point.

In any case, I have a feeling that Templars are gonna end up being even more of a dysfunctional mess after these changes go live, and we are gonna have to wait two or three updates before ZOS gets around to fixing all the issues this redesign is gonna cause.

I guess I'll stick playing a sorc 'till then

You don't need rally for heals anymore you gain living dark better scaling and Htd/Bol as well.

Stamwardens always had arctic blast for heals and didn't need rally, stamplars are now in same ship, rally will only become optional and not needed like in current patch right now.

Most of stamclass need 2h for spammable dizzy and this is not issue for stamplars anyways, since bol/htd can burst heal and jabs gives brutality this open ups for more build diversity.

Yeah... Not sold on that. I am not as hyped about having HotD available as a stamplar. It's PITA to use as a magplar as is. It's really expensive and even magplars have trouble spamming it. Relying on it as your panic heal, with all the other magicka based skills that compete on being your off-resource flex skill... Yeah, not a great plan.

To aggravate things even further, it is far from reliable since the heal goes to who the game thinks needs it the most and that might not be you. Happens fairly often in crowded keep fights. And to top it all, it's painfully slow and far from instant on demand heal. I still remember those stupid dev comments about how some classes were just designed to be slower and that Templars need to anticipate damage. It has it's uses, but I do not rely on it to save my hide when I play PVP on a magplar.

I noted this in the combat previews thread, and still stand by what I said there - This thing can work. Just as any of the dozen or so combat paradigms the game has iterated through. But it will mess up everything. Again. Add it will take several patches before we realise how things will gell together in this reality. There are gonna be playstyles that are winners and some that are losers. The theorycrafters will eventually churn out the numbers for that.

The thing is though, that I don't have the time and patience to test and research, again, what works and what not. I just want to play the stupid game, not spend my time testing different gear and skill load outs, and trying to come up with a combo that is effective.

I see potential wins in this, like now slotting camo hunter makes some sense for a Stamplar, as long as you aim to be a stab maniac. Maybe throw a bow backbar for some ranged flexibility. Or run with a resto staff on backbar. Who knows. I don't, since I also see ton of issues and problems with how things are gonna change. I'm going to have to change the load outs on both my active templars. Re-gear them, re-spec them, and come up with a new skill load out that I may or may not end up liking, depending on how well it mashes with my preferred playstyle.

The one thing I do know, is that I am not interested on doing that legwork, and I will just sit on the sidelines for an update or two to see where the pieces will finally end up falling. 'Cause you do realize that things are gonna have to change because of this. When the next chapter hits sometime in summer, I fully expect to see several pages worth of "tweaks" to class and weapon skills, to "reflect the new reality of the game." And we will have to adjust, again, to all those changes.

Personally I see some merit in these changes in the long term, but I also recognise how badly this wrecks things in place at the moment. A lot of stuff needs to be reworked, redesigned, and fitted to work with each other once more. And at this point all I see is lot of dead ends and incompatible components being offered for templars.

And that is just from the stamplar point of view. The change, that is the main topic of this thread, offers nothing to magplars. Especially a ranged build, like the one I run. Magplars will still need to run degeneration (which requires a target to activate) use pots (which comes with a hefty opportunity cost -as in being unable to use that invis potion when about to be over run by a horde of enemy players) or use rattlecage (which means you give up fully powered 5th slot for ease of use.) And the benefit to stamplars will not suit everyone's approach to the game, and tie stamplars even more tightly to just being melee range stab-machines.

I'm sure it will be sorted out in time. Adjustments will be made, new synergies will be discovered (and prolly nerfed) and eventually a new normal will establish itself for stamplars. And maybe someone will figure a really good off-resource skill combo for magparas.

In the meantime... I'll just keep playing a magsorc, since nothing much changed for them, and I can keep trucking as I've always done. If you feel that this is going to be an improvement for you, the good for you. You are one of the winners. Just note that not everyone is on the same boat with you, and there are bound to be plenty of people to whom this means worsening of the game. Which side will end up bigger, and whether this will be an overall improvement for the game remains to be seen.

West93

Hymzir wrote: »

West93 wrote: »

Hymzir wrote: »

So, after reading patch notes for PTS, my take on it all was:"Good grief. Here we go again..."

- sigh -

The changes, no matter how much they are marketed as something that makes things more open and accessible and easier to plan around, will change everything on a fundamental level. Again. And that means how all the individual pieces fit together.

Having finally a class based source for Major Brutality/Sorcery as a Templar is welcome news indeed, but tacking it on the stam morph of jabs is just bad design.

Especially since getting it via Rally as stam has been the standard for years, and it wont make a licking difference to a mag build if it is on the stam morph of the spammable around which the whole stupid class is designed.

I really don't know what to say. The proposed change doesn't really mean anything, you still need rally for the heals and 2H for the execute, though I guess I could test and see how jesus beam works as off- resource execute on a stam build...

But then again, that is a channel and works better at range, and jabs is a melee ability and 2h exe is instant and can be woven, so.... Eh?

But this leads me to my actual point of contention - Stop forcing jabs as the one stop choice for templars! Not everyone wants to play melee-plars! It's bad enough the way burning light was changed from a proc to a counter, meaning it only really activates reliably via jabs, but now this thing then. I just wish the class supported something else than jabbity-stabbity-jab-jab-pokiness, but I guess that is a pipe dream at this point.

In any case, I have a feeling that Templars are gonna end up being even more of a dysfunctional mess after these changes go live, and we are gonna have to wait two or three updates before ZOS gets around to fixing all the issues this redesign is gonna cause.

I guess I'll stick playing a sorc 'till then

You don't need rally for heals anymore you gain living dark better scaling and Htd/Bol as well.

Stamwardens always had arctic blast for heals and didn't need rally, stamplars are now in same ship, rally will only become optional and not needed like in current patch right now.

Most of stamclass need 2h for spammable dizzy and this is not issue for stamplars anyways, since bol/htd can burst heal and jabs gives brutality this open ups for more build diversity.

Yeah... Not sold on that. I am not as hyped about having HotD available as a stamplar. It's PITA to use as a magplar as is. It's really expensive and even magplars have trouble spamming it. Relying on it as your panic heal, with all the other magicka based skills that compete on being your off-resource flex skill... Yeah, not a great plan.

To aggravate things even further, it is far from reliable since the heal goes to who the game thinks needs it the most and that might not be you. Happens fairly often in crowded keep fights. And to top it all, it's painfully slow and far from instant on demand heal. I still remember those stupid dev comments about how some classes were just designed to be slower and that Templars need to anticipate damage. It has it's uses, but I do not rely on it to save my hide when I play PVP on a magplar.

I noted this in the combat previews thread, and still stand by what I said there - This thing can work. Just as any of the dozen or so combat paradigms the game has iterated through. But it will mess up everything. Again. Add it will take several patches before we realise how things will gell together in this reality. There are gonna be playstyles that are winners and some that are losers. The theorycrafters will eventually churn out the numbers for that.

The thing is though, that I don't have the time and patience to test and research, again, what works and what not. I just want to play the stupid game, not spend my time testing different gear and skill load outs, and trying to come up with a combo that is effective.

I see potential wins in this, like now slotting camo hunter makes some sense for a Stamplar, as long as you aim to be a stab maniac. Maybe throw a bow backbar for some ranged flexibility. Or run with a resto staff on backbar. Who knows. I don't, since I also see ton of issues and problems with how things are gonna change. I'm going to have to change the load outs on both my active templars. Re-gear them, re-spec them, and come up with a new skill load out that I may or may not end up liking, depending on how well it mashes with my preferred playstyle.

The one thing I do know, is that I am not interested on doing that legwork, and I will just sit on the sidelines for an update or two to see where the pieces will finally end up falling. 'Cause you do realize that things are gonna have to change because of this. When the next chapter hits sometime in summer, I fully expect to see several pages worth of "tweaks" to class and weapon skills, to "reflect the new reality of the game." And we will have to adjust, again, to all those changes.

Personally I see some merit in these changes in the long term, but I also recognise how badly this wrecks things in place at the moment. A lot of stuff needs to be reworked, redesigned, and fitted to work with each other once more. And at this point all I see is lot of dead ends and incompatible components being offered for templars.

And that is just from the stamplar point of view. The change, that is the main topic of this thread, offers nothing to magplars. Especially a ranged build, like the one I run. Magplars will still need to run degeneration (which requires a target to activate) use pots (which comes with a hefty opportunity cost -as in being unable to use that invis potion when about to be over run by a horde of enemy players) or use rattlecage (which means you give up fully powered 5th slot for ease of use.) And the benefit to stamplars will not suit everyone's approach to the game, and tie stamplars even more tightly to just being melee range stab-machines.

I'm sure it will be sorted out in time. Adjustments will be made, new synergies will be discovered (and prolly nerfed) and eventually a new normal will establish itself for stamplars. And maybe someone will figure a really good off-resource skill combo for magparas.

In the meantime... I'll just keep playing a magsorc, since nothing much changed for them, and I can keep trucking as I've always done. If you feel that this is going to be an improvement for you, the good for you. You are one of the winners. Just note that not everyone is on the same boat with you, and there are bound to be plenty of people to whom this means worsening of the game. Which side will end up bigger, and whether this will be an overall improvement for the game remains to be seen.

Magplars have more problems with Htd because they use only magicka skills, as stamplar having only some magicka abilities to spam saves up your stamina sustain as well.

Before living dark changes I was already using 3 mag skills (ritual,rat,toppling) for years while 99% stamplars would only run 1 mag skill (ritual) at those days (remember newmoon fury meta days?).

I am getting close to having 300 days playtime on stamplar since this is the only class I love to pvp with and I must say that having a Htd for burst heal is so much needed. It will solve so many issues.

You don't need to overthink this, build some mag sustain, use Htd + vigor and thank me later. If you prefer zerging in crowded places use Bol so you get extra heal for others and one for you, I usually stay away from such fights because its laggy so not issue to me using Htd only for myself.

gariondavey

West, I'm not imperial (bosmer) and I don't play in CP. I might need to use atro stone instead of serpent stone. Or use resto back bar with heavies to supplement mag sustain.
Part of me is just tempted to use venom arrow with master bow back bar, and use an inferno staff front bar with crushing weapon and potl. I sort of see why you are in approval of the change to biting jabs but I am not.

TechMaybeHic

I can say one thing that would be nice is to prebuff 1 less thing as Stam. Thinking I might be able to work HTD when low which returns mag, and just keep vigor going. CP star that pumps up mag rec while sprinting, maybe play with the torc...

Can at least test.

Amorpho

West93 wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

@West93 you really think you can sustain htd + living dark + extended ritual + race against time with just bear haunch? That's like 1200 no cp regen.
You'll have 15k or so mag.
Living dark, er, htd all cost 4.5k mag or so.
I think you'll need atro stone too.

Imperial gives 6% cost reduction to passives it does make a difference to sustain. I am also using tri stat potions as well which gives more mag regen, currently on live I sustain fine 4 mag skills (rat, living dark, toppling charge, ritual) I'll replace toppling to javelin next patch so thats 4 mag skills again.

I get around 1500+ mag regen buffed with tri stat pot currently and 15k max mag with all prismatic glyphs on body and as I said if I feel I need more regen I could backbar wretched vitality or either use torc mythic or engine guardian etc not a big deal.

Also I am not a vampire so I don't have cost increase in skills.

@West93 So, you're basically saying that to sustain HTD on a stamplar you need a sustain race + sustain choices (sets / glyphs etc) and CP. Yet, for a class that naturally has access to minor sorcery and now minor brutality, not stacking weapon damage just does not make sense. At the moment I run Clever Alchemist backbar, Essence Thief front bar, DD Fete and Magma Incarnate with infused WD glyphs and cheap ass tristat pots. With this change, the only way I could keep this setup is if I slotted Camo hunter on front bar losing the bubble (which is super useful in 1vX).

Also, with regards to Rally, people will still use it for sustain and access to the 2h Vateshraan BUFF. HTD, instead, offers only a burst heal that would only be reliable when playing solo. (BTW, I still use Rally on my Stamden).

I get what you're saying about the ability to use HTD instead of Rally and setups that do not rely on 2h, but in order to sustain that you would need to sacrifice way too much WD - which basically goes against the innate strength of the class. Like I said, it just makes no sense... Especially since there are a couple of skills on templar that virtually nobody uses.

In general, putting major sorcery and brutality on a Stam spammable is doubly wrong. These major buffs should not be tied to a spammable (Sap Essence isn't a spammable my dear NBs and it is an amazing skill!) and especially to a Stam spammable - cause then it becomes useless on a Magicka build. In that case, these 2 buffs should have been added to the base form of the skill.

ealdwin

Hot take:

Major Buffs and/or Debuffs shouldn't be tied to Spammables.

Amorpho

ealdwin wrote: »

Hot (and potentially controversial) take:

Major Buffs and/or Debuffs shouldn't be tied to Spammables.

That's exactly what a couple of us have said. That should be a universal principle, especially if you think of tying those buffs only to either a stam or mag skill morph... 😑

gariondavey

Amorpho wrote: »

West93 wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

@West93 you really think you can sustain htd + living dark + extended ritual + race against time with just bear haunch? That's like 1200 no cp regen.
You'll have 15k or so mag.
Living dark, er, htd all cost 4.5k mag or so.
I think you'll need atro stone too.

Imperial gives 6% cost reduction to passives it does make a difference to sustain. I am also using tri stat potions as well which gives more mag regen, currently on live I sustain fine 4 mag skills (rat, living dark, toppling charge, ritual) I'll replace toppling to javelin next patch so thats 4 mag skills again.

I get around 1500+ mag regen buffed with tri stat pot currently and 15k max mag with all prismatic glyphs on body and as I said if I feel I need more regen I could backbar wretched vitality or either use torc mythic or engine guardian etc not a big deal.

Also I am not a vampire so I don't have cost increase in skills.

@West93 So, you're basically saying that to sustain HTD on a stamplar you need a sustain race + sustain choices (sets / glyphs etc) and CP. Yet, for a class that naturally has access to minor sorcery and now minor brutality, not stacking weapon damage just does not make sense. At the moment I run Clever Alchemist backbar, Essence Thief front bar, DD Fete and Magma Incarnate with infused WD glyphs and cheap ass tristat pots. With this change, the only way I could keep this setup is if I slotted Camo hunter on front bar losing the bubble (which is super useful in 1vX).

Also, with regards to Rally, people will still use it for sustain and access to the 2h Vateshraan BUFF. HTD, instead, offers only a burst heal that would only be reliable when playing solo. (BTW, I still use Rally on my Stamden).

I get what you're saying about the ability to use HTD instead of Rally and setups that do not rely on 2h, but in order to sustain that you would need to sacrifice way too much WD - which basically goes against the innate strength of the class. Like I said, it just makes no sense... Especially since there are a couple of skills on templar that virtually nobody uses.

In general, putting major sorcery and brutality on a Stam spammable is doubly wrong. These major buffs should not be tied to a spammable (Sap Essence isn't a spammable my dear NBs and it is an amazing skill!) and especially to a Stam spammable - cause then it becomes useless on a Magicka build. In that case, these 2 buffs should have been added to the base form of the skill.

Thank you, exactly what I have been saying.

Necrotech_Master

Amorpho wrote: »

ealdwin wrote: »

Hot (and potentially controversial) take:

Major Buffs and/or Debuffs shouldn't be tied to Spammables.

That's exactly what a couple of us have said. That should be a universal principle, especially if you think of tying those buffs only to either a stam or mag skill morph... 😑

i dont mind them being on the spammable, as im getting the buff for free at that point

but i do agree that the buff should be part of the base skill instead of 1 morph if you are going to have a mag and stam version of the skill (if you have 2 mag or 2 stam morphs then sure you could split it as its an either-or situation)

gariondavey

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Amorpho wrote: »

ealdwin wrote: »

Hot (and potentially controversial) take:

Major Buffs and/or Debuffs shouldn't be tied to Spammables.

That's exactly what a couple of us have said. That should be a universal principle, especially if you think of tying those buffs only to either a stam or mag skill morph... 😑

i dont mind them being on the spammable, as im getting the buff for free at that point

but i do agree that the buff should be part of the base skill instead of 1 morph if you are going to have a mag and stam version of the skill (if you have 2 mag or 2 stam morphs then sure you could split it as its an either-or situation)

And at least last 20 seconds...sheesh

Firstmep

Amorpho wrote: »

West93 wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

@West93 you really think you can sustain htd + living dark + extended ritual + race against time with just bear haunch? That's like 1200 no cp regen.
You'll have 15k or so mag.
Living dark, er, htd all cost 4.5k mag or so.
I think you'll need atro stone too.

Imperial gives 6% cost reduction to passives it does make a difference to sustain. I am also using tri stat potions as well which gives more mag regen, currently on live I sustain fine 4 mag skills (rat, living dark, toppling charge, ritual) I'll replace toppling to javelin next patch so thats 4 mag skills again.

I get around 1500+ mag regen buffed with tri stat pot currently and 15k max mag with all prismatic glyphs on body and as I said if I feel I need more regen I could backbar wretched vitality or either use torc mythic or engine guardian etc not a big deal.

Also I am not a vampire so I don't have cost increase in skills.

@West93 So, you're basically saying that to sustain HTD on a stamplar you need a sustain race + sustain choices (sets / glyphs etc) and CP. Yet, for a class that naturally has access to minor sorcery and now minor brutality, not stacking weapon damage just does not make sense. At the moment I run Clever Alchemist backbar, Essence Thief front bar, DD Fete and Magma Incarnate with infused WD glyphs and cheap ass tristat pots. With this change, the only way I could keep this setup is if I slotted Camo hunter on front bar losing the bubble (which is super useful in 1vX).

Also, with regards to Rally, people will still use it for sustain and access to the 2h Vateshraan BUFF. HTD, instead, offers only a burst heal that would only be reliable when playing solo. (BTW, I still use Rally on my Stamden).

I get what you're saying about the ability to use HTD instead of Rally and setups that do not rely on 2h, but in order to sustain that you would need to sacrifice way too much WD - which basically goes against the innate strength of the class. Like I said, it just makes no sense... Especially since there are a couple of skills on templar that virtually nobody uses.

In general, putting major sorcery and brutality on a Stam spammable is doubly wrong. These major buffs should not be tied to a spammable (Sap Essence isn't a spammable my dear NBs and it is an amazing skill!) and especially to a Stam spammable - cause then it becomes useless on a Magicka build. In that case, these 2 buffs should have been added to the base form of the skill.

Quick correction, templar doesnt have and wont get minor brutality.
At least not this update.

Amorpho

Firstmep wrote: »

Amorpho wrote: »

West93 wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

@West93 you really think you can sustain htd + living dark + extended ritual + race against time with just bear haunch? That's like 1200 no cp regen.
You'll have 15k or so mag.
Living dark, er, htd all cost 4.5k mag or so.
I think you'll need atro stone too.

Imperial gives 6% cost reduction to passives it does make a difference to sustain. I am also using tri stat potions as well which gives more mag regen, currently on live I sustain fine 4 mag skills (rat, living dark, toppling charge, ritual) I'll replace toppling to javelin next patch so thats 4 mag skills again.

I get around 1500+ mag regen buffed with tri stat pot currently and 15k max mag with all prismatic glyphs on body and as I said if I feel I need more regen I could backbar wretched vitality or either use torc mythic or engine guardian etc not a big deal.

Also I am not a vampire so I don't have cost increase in skills.

@West93 So, you're basically saying that to sustain HTD on a stamplar you need a sustain race + sustain choices (sets / glyphs etc) and CP. Yet, for a class that naturally has access to minor sorcery and now minor brutality, not stacking weapon damage just does not make sense. At the moment I run Clever Alchemist backbar, Essence Thief front bar, DD Fete and Magma Incarnate with infused WD glyphs and cheap ass tristat pots. With this change, the only way I could keep this setup is if I slotted Camo hunter on front bar losing the bubble (which is super useful in 1vX).

Also, with regards to Rally, people will still use it for sustain and access to the 2h Vateshraan BUFF. HTD, instead, offers only a burst heal that would only be reliable when playing solo. (BTW, I still use Rally on my Stamden).

I get what you're saying about the ability to use HTD instead of Rally and setups that do not rely on 2h, but in order to sustain that you would need to sacrifice way too much WD - which basically goes against the innate strength of the class. Like I said, it just makes no sense... Especially since there are a couple of skills on templar that virtually nobody uses.

In general, putting major sorcery and brutality on a Stam spammable is doubly wrong. These major buffs should not be tied to a spammable (Sap Essence isn't a spammable my dear NBs and it is an amazing skill!) and especially to a Stam spammable - cause then it becomes useless on a Magicka build. In that case, these 2 buffs should have been added to the base form of the skill.

Quick correction, templar doesnt have and wont get minor brutality.
At least not this update.

Oh dang thanks for the info! I thought that passive was getting hybridised too. I wonder why major sorcery/brutality are, but not minor sorcery? 🤔 What about minor brutality to sorcery with DKs?

Jman100582

>Oh dang thanks for the info! I thought that passive was getting hybridised too. I wonder why major sorcery/brutality are, but not minor sorcery? 🤔 What about minor brutality to sorcery with DKs?

The reason is so that certain classes are still viable in group comps and serve a purpose. If both templar and dk both gace minor sorcery and brutality, there really wouldn't be much of a point to run both in a group theoretically. This also applies to nbs giving minor savagery vs sorcs giving minor sorcery to group

Amorpho

Jman100582 wrote: »

>Oh dang thanks for the info! I thought that passive was getting hybridised too. I wonder why major sorcery/brutality are, but not minor sorcery? 🤔 What about minor brutality to sorcery with DKs?

The reason is so that certain classes are still viable in group comps and serve a purpose. If both templar and dk both gace minor sorcery and brutality, there really wouldn't be much of a point to run both in a group theoretically. This also applies to nbs giving minor savagery vs sorcs giving minor sorcery to group

Does it mean that from now on I will always need to invest in SD rather than WD on my Stamplar to make use of minor sorcery in my overall damage calculations? 🤔 Also, how is damage going to be calculated if my stam pool is far larger than my magicka pool, but my SD is much higher than my WD? Would the hybridised calculation consider only the highest stats (in my example max stam + SD) or either Max Stam + WD or Max Magicka + SD?

Jman100582

Amorpho wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

>Oh dang thanks for the info! I thought that passive was getting hybridised too. I wonder why major sorcery/brutality are, but not minor sorcery? 🤔 What about minor brutality to sorcery with DKs?

The reason is so that certain classes are still viable in group comps and serve a purpose. If both templar and dk both gace minor sorcery and brutality, there really wouldn't be much of a point to run both in a group theoretically. This also applies to nbs giving minor savagery vs sorcs giving minor sorcery to group

Does it mean that from now on I will always need to invest in SD rather than WD on my Stamplar? 🤔

I'm not entirely sure myself since I don't have access to the pts. Depends on if scaling max mag and stam and scaling max sd and wd are independent of each other. Meaning say a build with 30k mag and 6k wd deals the same amount of dmg as a build with 30k stam and 6k wd. If this is the case, then scaling max stam and sd would be the best on a "stam"plar and scaling max mag and wd would be best on a "mag"dk if that makes sense. Would also mean that power of the light is a useless skill, since it won't be getting the hybridization changes and you'll be scaling sd, not wd so you'd have to use purifying light instead

Amorpho

Jman100582 wrote: »

Amorpho wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

>Oh dang thanks for the info! I thought that passive was getting hybridised too. I wonder why major sorcery/brutality are, but not minor sorcery? 🤔 What about minor brutality to sorcery with DKs?

The reason is so that certain classes are still viable in group comps and serve a purpose. If both templar and dk both gace minor sorcery and brutality, there really wouldn't be much of a point to run both in a group theoretically. This also applies to nbs giving minor savagery vs sorcs giving minor sorcery to group

Does it mean that from now on I will always need to invest in SD rather than WD on my Stamplar? 🤔

I'm not entirely sure myself since I don't have access to the pts. Depends on if scaling max mag and stam and scaling max sd and wd are independent of each other. Meaning say a build with 30k mag and 6k wd deals the same amount of dmg as a build with 30k stam and 6k wd. If this is the case, then scaling max stam and sd would be the best on a "stam"plar and scaling max mag and wd would be best on a "mag"dk if that makes sense. Would also mean that power of the light is a useless skill, since it won't be getting the hybridization changes and you'll be scaling sd, not wd so you'd have to use purifying light instead

Gosh, I hadn't thought about Power of the Light and Purifying Light. Won't they scale with the highest offensive stat next patch? Or will they still scale with WD and SD respectively? This is so confusing... 😑