Reflecting on My ESO Experience: The Tension Between Playing How You Want to Play or Need to Play

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo · January 2022

How do we reconcile the rational and reasonable goal to win PvP, while also the fact that playing the way you want to play can often go against that rational goal?

Keep things light, enjoy yourself and trust your gut.
Just remember this: 'Do enjoy your battleground, Mr/Mrs Thesarahandcompany'

https://youtu.be/qIalODmFrZk?t=182

Amottica · January 2022

Youyouz06 wrote: »

How do we reconcile the rational and reasonable goal to win PvP, while also the fact that playing the way you want to play can often go against that rational goal?

Keep things light, enjoy yourself and trust your gut.
Just remember this: 'Do enjoy your battleground, Mr/Mrs Thesarahandcompany'

Agreeing with this comment.

Dem_kitkats1 · January 2022

Amottica wrote: »

I think I do not understand your post. I never said meta was meaningless. However, equipping meta gear on the average player will not lead to that average player doing top DPS. They will not until and unless they improve their playing. Heck, there are players doing less than 20k DPS and gear will not make the difference between them doing that 20k and somehow doing 80k. So yes, meta gear will have less meaning with a player doing 20k dps. Player skill is most important.

Yes. Player skill and understanding of the game helps, absolutely, but only up to a certain point. A skilled player could do everything perfectly, but if they do not have the right gear or CP skills slotted they will also never do top DPS for they don't have the stats to back them up. As OP said, ESO is a numbers game, and if you do not have them you will not do as well as someone who does regardless of skill.

No. Wearing meta gear will not magically make an unskilled player suddenly be top dog. However, the stats given to them by wearing the right gear and having the right CP passives will help compensate for their mistakes. Players parse 20k DPS because they are not built correctly by wearing the wrong gear, or they have no CP or they're using the wrong CP skills.

MEBengalsFan2001 · January 2022

If a player is not new to a MMO they should expect that at end game there will be specific sets, builds, etc.. to use for damage dealer, tank and healer roles. If the player is to new to MMO it may take them longer to grasp the importance of sets and builds.

Even if you have correct build and sets it does not mean that the player has the proper skill. The skill gap in this game for PVE is quite high because of game mechanics and being able to complete rotations.

Than when you get into PVP it is a completely different game with more builds, different set of rules etc... having PVE end game experience does help a bit.

Overall I would rate ESO as a 9/10 stars for overland content for new players or players wanting a casual game with mostly overland story driven content and if they want to do dungeons just go into regular.

Overall I would rate ESO 3/10 stars for end game PVE content. It is not new player friendly because of how PVE end game truly works. It got 3 stars because some of the better sets are overland and aren't that hard to acquire and some of the initial dungeons do help with how to play DLC dungeons. End game PVE should have feature to DPS improve with weaving and learning the exact mechanics of a Dungeon or Trial. Don't tell me to go into regular to learn as Vet typically has extra mechanics or the mechanics that players are able to burn through in normal may end up showing up in Vet.

When it comes to PVP I would rate ESO at 1/10 stars. You not only have to deal with learning how to build and play a character but you also have to learn how to play a build around lag and cheaters.

etchedpixels · January 2022

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

If a player is not new to a MMO they should expect that at end game there will be specific sets, builds, etc.. to use for damage dealer, tank and healer roles.

For a certain extremely narrow subset of MMO games that follow a particular trope. Minecraft for an example the other end to ESO has no specific roles, special sets or builds whilst games like Albion Online (the game New World was trying to be but failed) are classless and not designed around special non-craftable rare sets.

drsalvation · January 2022

So I think "play as you want" is actually right.
You can either play as you want, or you do as the game says.

NerfSeige wrote: »

drsalvation wrote: »

Yeah, to be good at PvP you have to play in specific builds. This is why a lot of us hate it.

This is so wrong, PVP is the ultimate RP place to play what you want. No numbers to chase, just be effective.

It’s just easier to run meta as a beginner (same as pve) but as long as you can make your build work then it’s gucci (not by hopping on cyro sometimes, but playing on it most of the times).

I just want to remind everyone now that we’re talking “play how you want” that the meta people also “play how they want” by being as efficient and effective as possible.

" but as long as you can make your build work then it’s gucci" but what if you can't make your build work?

"Just be effective"
yeah, and how do we become effective? With the numbers.

Before having the correct build, I did everything right, and yet not even my biggest burst came close to dealing 10% of dmg on enemy players, I would run out of resources quickly, and I couldn't run fast enough to use environments to break line of sight.
After getting the correct gear sets, playing the same way would show how much more damage I was doing and I was killing players.

But that said, show me any effective PvP stamina templar imperial sword and shield build where sword and shield is the primary source of damage.
In the meantime, just use jabs + power of light with deadly strikes.
I'm wearing knight errant as well, but honestly that's just a wasted gear set since I'm only using charge for gap closing, none of the other S&S skills are worth anything in PvP.

Amottica · January 2022

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

With the exception of PvP where stuns rule the game, player skill overwhelmingly dictates who is the stronger player.

A better comparison of gear than a no gear vCR would be the DPS of an average player in a meta build vs a top player wearing only crafted gear. The top player will outperform because they have taken the time to refine their skill. Even the OP notes that practice lead to their game improving which supports my comment.

I have to disagree that gear has minimal to do with success in the game. Metas are metas for a reason. The extra stats and abilities that sets can give you, practically for free, is pretty insane. So it's no wonder that players gravitate to them. Put that on an experienced player and good luck trying to take them down without it 1v1. Just look at how Dark Convergence practically broke PvP. When it was first introduced 1 player could take out groups of enemy players by one click of a button. Their ability to kill others had nothing to do with skill.

So I don't think that playing meta makes you elitist, it's just how the game has evolved to cater to this "solo" mentality. I definitely think elitism is an attitude as others have said. I feel that elitism and toxicity in the culture of ESO could be an interesting and entirely new thread on its own because of its complexity.

I think I do not understand your post. I never said meta was meaningless. However, equipping meta gear on the average player will not lead to that average player doing top DPS. They will not until and unless they improve their playing. Heck, there are players doing less than 20k DPS and gear will not make the difference between them doing that 20k and somehow doing 80k. So yes, meta gear will have less meaning with a player doing 20k dps. Player skill is most important.

Light weaving is also meta. Its not something done organically. So is rotation, skill loadouts.

Which is part of the reason I said player skill is more important than gear. Granted, gear still plays a role but in ESO a the player's ability plays an outweighed role.

MaleAmazon · January 2022

How do we reconcile the rational and reasonable goal to win PvP, while also the fact that playing the way you want to play can often go against that rational goal?

Well, to me there is a difference between playing team and solo PvP.

If you are playing team PvP, yeah expect some grief from people. I don´t mind people sucking in PUG groups usually, but deliberately playing sub-par because it increases your enjoyment at the expense of others... that´s not very nice.

My solution is to play solo PvP in Cyrodiil. There, I can bring a non-meta unusual build and mess around. There´s room for enough people in there that you don´t have to care about team-playing and winning for the sake of your alliance (though 'killing enemy' sort of accomplishes that anyway).

sajackson · January 2022

In a computer game there will always be a meta because ultimately you're playing against a spreadsheet and certain builds just have better numbers than others.

The real issue I don't see considered much, though, is just how much better is the meta build than say the second or third-best build(s)?

If ZOS did a good job they would make it so that the very best build is the best, but not by too much. That way playing other non-meta builds should still be viable and the "play the way you want" intent becomes more of an option. Conversely, if the meta completely over-powers everything else by a lot then players will only ever want to play the meta build because everything else is guaranteed to lose.

I've only played PvP a little so I don't really know what kind of orders of magnitude difference in power we're talking about between builds.