math op

Clearly there are no decimal places involved. It is an integer value. If it were 99.5 then it would say 99.5 not 100.

Yes I understand your math explanation. I'm saying that it is not 99.5 and that the math in the game is wrong. If it displays an integer of 100 then the perk should modify the integer, not this mythical 99.5 value that you seem to assume that it is. Otherwise it is a lie to put the armor as 100 when it is not. This would lead to a host of problems with other bonus perks and abilities where that .5 adds up to something substantial. This is not Office Space or Superman 3, I will not let them steal my pennies until they add up. Saying that I "do not understand MMO math" is pompus and idiotic, this has nothing to do with MMO math, this has to do with an armor that SAYS it is 100 defense, not 99.5 rounded up. That means that their equation is wrong in determining % value, and in a game where there is a lot of % value to be calculated, this 25% margin of error is pretty blatant. I have a perk that increases my armor by 21%, does that mean that the perk only works for 16% in reality because of MMO math? Am I losing armor because all my armors are XX.5 and when I have 7 armors at XX.5, that means a loss of 3.5 armor which would have a visible impact on the 21% perk or the 4% increased armor type perk. this "MMO math" that you speak of is a slippery slope of lies that you assume to be true. There is no mythical .5, their math is wrong at a simple lvl.

PVT_Parts wrote: »

Yes I understand your math explanation. I'm saying that it is not 99.5 and that the math in the game is wrong. If it displays an integer of 100 then the perk should modify the integer, not this mythical 99.5 value that you seem to assume that it is. Otherwise it is a lie to put the armor as 100 when it is not. This would lead to a host of problems with other bonus perks and abilities where that .5 adds up to something substantial. This is not Office Space or Superman 3, I will not let them steal my pennies until they add up. Saying that I "do not understand MMO math" is pompus and idiotic, this has nothing to do with MMO math, this has to do with an armor that SAYS it is 100 defense, not 99.5 rounded up. That means that their equation is wrong in determining % value, and in a game where there is a lot of % value to be calculated, this 25% margin of error is pretty blatant. I have a perk that increases my armor by 21%, does that mean that the perk only works for 16% in reality because of MMO math? Am I losing armor because all my armors are XX.5 and when I have 7 armors at XX.5, that means a loss of 3.5 armor which would have a visible impact on the 21% perk or the 4% increased armor type perk. this "MMO math" that you speak of is a slippery slope of lies that you assume to be true. There is no mythical .5, their math is wrong at a simple lvl.

You make a bad point with a wall of text, I simply can't reply to you, what what ever you just tired to say was a waste of time


Also even money has decimals in it.

You can claim there is a decimal there if you want. However, that is NOT what the game is stating. A 25% margin of error is a large discrepancy. Just because you don't value the realistic 3-4 extra armor that the decimal places take away, doesn't mean that you should criticize my math on this issue. There is no 99.5. It is 100. It clearly says 100. Want me to post a screenshot? Don't believe me? 4% added onto 100 is 104 not 103. If it were indeed 99.5, then you would be correct, but it clearly states the armor as being 100. Your MMO Math is pointless because that IS NOT the case. You can bull *** me all day about how the math could possibly work itself out "in the code", but 2+2 always equals 4 not 3.48. I stated the part about only getting 16% of the 21% bonus because that is a 25% margin of error that is equivalent to this issue. Here is another wall of text for you idiots to not read. Go cry about your mythical MMO Math somewhere else. This is integer math we are talking about.

Moroch wrote: »

PVT_Parts wrote: »

Here is another wall of text for you idiots to not read. Go cry about your mythical MMO Math somewhere else.

Okay, I'll not offer my opinion any more on your posts. I hope you manage to get it sorted.

If you had not gone straight to insults and trolling then maybe we could have had an intelligent and enlightening conversation about MMO math such as this.

I'll explain why if your theory is correct, it matters more than you think.

1. For the sake of this post, we will assume that every % increase effects the base armor and not a total % increase. This is an acceptable assumption for MMO math.
2. that means that it will round down for every bonus % since a XX.5 increased by a % lower than 100% will always be below XX.5
3. So for this situation, let's say that we have 7 heavy armor pieces. All these armor pieces are at 99.5 and 2 weapons with a increase total armor % perk
4. So we have 103.48 with a 4% increase so 99.5+3.48=103. Then the second 4% perk is added from the second weapon making it 103+3.48(99.5+4%)=106. Then we have the 4% perk on all the armor 106+3.48=109. Then we have the 21% increase perk from heavy armor 109+20.395(99.5+21%)=129. So now we have 129 armor increase instead of 100+4+4+4+21=133. 4X7 pieces of heavy armor is 28, which is perceptible and an unacceptable loss because of a hidden variable that the game doesn't display.
5. While I agree that your theory could indeed and probably is correct, If the armor is rounded to show a certain number, that should be what is modified and effected by any % increase or else we run into this small XX.5 problem that as you can see, does in fact add up to make a difference. If it displays to me in game as 100, I don't care what the value it rounded up from is, the new value that is displayed should be the only thing that is modified by anything in game.

Ur-Quan wrote: »

PVT_Parts wrote: »

Yes I understand your math explanation. I'm saying that it is not 99.5 and that the math in the game is wrong. If it displays an integer of 100 then the perk should modify the integer, not this mythical 99.5 value that you seem to assume that it is.

And you're wrong. Just like in previous Elder Scrolls games, there's a lot of math going on behind the scenes for the armor value, and they display the value as the closest integer even though that's not actually the exact value. If it displays 100, it could actually be anywhere between 99.5 and 100.499999999. The display settings only display integers, but the calculations aren't done using the integer-only display values - they're done using the actual values. This isn't a bug, it's as designed (and as it's been done in previous Elder Scrolls games).

And you are also wrong. For this to be true, the value has to be 99.5 or 99.51, anything over that would make the value 104 with rounding, it can't be anywhere between 99.52 and 100.4999999. I didn't actually say anything was true so you telling me that I'm wrong does not makes sense. I said that it should, not that it does.

PVT_Parts wrote: »

Moroch wrote: »

PVT_Parts wrote: »

Here is another wall of text for you idiots to not read. Go cry about your mythical MMO Math somewhere else.

Okay, I'll not offer my opinion any more on your posts. I hope you manage to get it sorted.

If you had not gone straight to insults and trolling then maybe we could have had an intelligent and enlightening conversation about MMO math such as this.

I'll explain why if your theory is correct, it matters more than you think.

1. For the sake of this post, we will assume that every % increase effects the base armor and not a total % increase. This is an acceptable assumption for MMO math.
2. that means that it will round down for every bonus % since a XX.5 increased by a % lower than 100% will always be below XX.5
3. So for this situation, let's say that we have 7 heavy armor pieces. All these armor pieces are at 99.5 and 2 weapons with a increase total armor % perk
4. So we have 103.48 with a 4% increase so 99.5+3.48=103. Then the second 4% perk is added from the second weapon making it 103+3.48(99.5+4%)=106. Then we have the 4% perk on all the armor 106+3.48=109. Then we have the 21% increase perk from heavy armor 109+20.395(99.5+21%)=129. So now we have 129 armor increase instead of 100+4+4+4+21=133. 4X7 pieces of heavy armor is 28, which is perceptible and an unacceptable loss because of a hidden variable that the game doesn't display.
5. While I agree that your theory could indeed and probably is correct, If the armor is rounded to show a certain number, that should be what is modified and effected by any % increase or else we run into this small XX.5 problem that as you can see, does in fact add up to make a difference. If it displays to me in game as 100, I don't care what the value it rounded up from is, the new value that is displayed should be the only thing that is modified by anything in game.

You can't lose something you never had. You never had 100 armor on that armor piece. On the screen it shows that value because they round it to the nearest integer to make it visually appealing. Decimals would cause a mess. But you do not have 100 armor. The game deals with decimals, and the in-game math is the only math that matters. When mobs hit you, the 99.5 is your armor, not 100. So when something gives you a % increase, it is increasing the actual percentage of the true armor value, not the fictitious number displayed on the screen.

But it works both ways. The 99.5 armor with a 4% increase gives 103.48 right? But the armor only shows 103. Well good news, the game, like all games do, follow real math, not "integer math". So while it shows 103 armor, you actually have that 103.48 armor rating.

Real math rarely comes out clean. Elementary school tests always give nice, integer answers. But games like this are too complex. Don't believe the numbers in front of you as pure fact, they are a generalization, nothing more.

PVT_Parts wrote: »

If you had not gone straight to insults and trolling then maybe we could have had an intelligent and enlightening conversation about MMO math such as this.

This is a rounding anomaly. The real value is 99.5, it's being displayed as an integer to make all our lives easier. It looks weird when +4% = +3, but, eh, it's easier than the weirdness that would result otherwise.

PVT_Parts wrote: »

The question is, how do all of you know that the armor is 99.5 when it shows as 100. Just because you found a way to explain why the math might not be incorrect, doesn't mean that the math is correct. You found 1 way to explain how it could be the case and assume that it is. I'm telling you that the game decided to round that integer to 100, so that armor is 100, if it is indeed 99.5 then having it display 100 is a lie. It makes a possible 28 armor difference which is substantial considering that a Veteran Girdle is only 100 armor as it is. How can you say that I am wrong telling you that it is 100 armor. It is, it clearly shows 100. If you think otherwise, you can't read. You use possibilities to back up your belief, I use the numbers put in front of me. Math rarely works out evenly, but when you do 100+4%, it happens to work out perfectly. That is where this problem comes from.

It's deductive. The basic math isn't going to break down. If the value was really 100, multiplying it by 1.04 would result in 104, but in this case it results in 103. That means that the numbers being reported aren't valid. It's possible that the multiplier is suspect, but then it would display as incorrect values elsewhere.

There are also an absurd number of variants with any specific item, making it very likely that the actual armor values were generated procedurally. This makes an armor value of 99.5 very plausible.

The game then displays that as a 100, because it's rounding up.

There are other possibilities, but they're less likely. If it was actually multiplying by 1.03, then we'd be seeing more substantial math anomalies.

Eee gad, this thread is like when the missis asks you how her new jeans look... Should everyone have lied, rather than tried to help?

In fairness I was going to ask why on earth would they make armor values anything other than integers... but then, in fact, it makes absolute sense to make all armor values based on calculations from a small pool of values, rather than individually define values for every single piece of armor, of every level and quality, as all armor pieces in the game can then be modified by accessing only the core values.

Odds are that '100' you're seeing is a result of something along the lines of:

armor type value x level value x quality value x crafting bonus value

these core values will have been tweaked throughout development, and thus will almost certainly include decimals. Changing something by full integers would have HUGE ramifications when scaled up to v10 gear levels...

edit: ah... shoulda refreshed the thread before posting. people already said as much.

I gues Sheogorath is making my armor only be 99.5 instead of 100. That damn mad god!!

I did mention the 99.5 theory as well. They said you "may be on the verge of outsmarting the archmages" but that it could also be a mathematical anomaly that needs to be fixed.

PVT_Parts wrote: »

The reason is not as simple as the explanations in this forum. Apparenly even the "archmages" don't understand why this happens.

The reason is exactly as simple as the explanations in this forum, because that's exactly how it has worked in previous Elder Scrolls games, and it explains it perfectly. Just because the CS guy who replied to you (ie. more likely than not some guy who has no idea how anything in the game actually works, and only knows the exact answers to a specific set of CS inquiries he's been given details about) wasn't sure about it, that doesn't mean anything. Look at how many CS employees knew absolutely nothing about what was happening with the bank bug - even after it had been fixed in a patch and ZOS had announced the procedure for getting reimbursed for it!

PVT_Parts wrote: »

Ur-Quan wrote: »

PVT_Parts wrote: »

The reason is not as simple as the explanations in this forum. Apparenly even the "archmages" don't understand why this happens.

The reason is exactly as simple as the explanations in this forum, because that's exactly how it has worked in previous Elder Scrolls games, and it explains it perfectly. Just because the CS guy who replied to you (ie. more likely than not some guy who has no idea how anything in the game actually works, and only knows the exact answers to a specific set of CS inquiries he's been given details about) wasn't sure about it, that doesn't mean anything. Look at how many CS employees knew absolutely nothing about what was happening with the bank bug - even after it had been fixed in a patch and ZOS had announced the procedure for getting reimbursed for it!

But how do you know this is how it was done in other TES games?

At a guess? Because @Ur-Quan‌ has played some previous Elder Scrolls titles. And, he's right. Most games in the series present the armor value as an integer... after a fair amount of math has been run through it. Meaning, there's going to be decimals.

PVT_Parts wrote: »

Besides, as everyone points out this is more a generic MMO with a TES skin, so why would other TES games even matter? You can't say that this is how it is because that is what it is in Skyrim or Oblivion or Morrowind, the truth is that you can't compare them because that is a fallacy of logic.

No, as I said, it's deductive. We've seen this behavior before, both from The Elder Scrolls and from MMOs. This is not the first game out there that's resulted in some weird percentage modifiers from not displaying decimals.

PVT_Parts wrote: »

If you don't want to believe customer support, then good for you, but you can't say that I am wrong because Zenimax doesn't even know.

Customer Service reps are guys who sit on a phone bank and answer calls or answer emails. They are not programers, they aren't testers, they aren't even, necessarily, particularly computer literate. But, they have a script, and depending on the company, sometimes they have troubleshooting procedures. They are not developers, and they don't know what's going on.

Programmers are guys who sit in a cubicle, and crunch out the code. They're told what they need to do, and sometimes, how they need to do it. They'll diligently work on a piece of the puzzle, they know what the whole thing looks like, but they don't know all the work that went into every other piece. They kind of know what's going on, but when it gets out of the area they're working on, and depending on the project, they might not know exactly what's causing an issue if it started elsewhere in the project. When you have a problem, they do not pick up the phone.

Designers have an understanding of how the systems work. They may also understand how the code works, but the details of this get handed back to the programmers to work out. These are the people who decide what is "working as intended", and what's broken, how to balance things, what values to plug in. Their time is, however, more important than manually filling out every single possible value on a spreadsheet, so, if they can just use a calculation...

These guys don't pick up the phone, and they don't look at your problem unless things have gone off the rails and barreled through a school bus full of nuns.

PVT_Parts wrote: »

As for the bank bug, I didn't have an issue with it so I wouldn't know.

Neither does Customer Service, they just know what they're told.

PVT_Parts wrote: »

Besides, it is a bug so most people won't know what the reason or info behind it is. If it isn't a bug, more people know about the facts. For instance, a simple email up the line would get a response back "Yes the armor is only 99.5" if it were not a bug not a "We don't know why this is the case and will look into it more."

Because it's very unlikely someone wrote up a script for the Customer Service reps explaining how armor stats are calculated. It's not something they're likely to need, and, it's not something they can do anything about, so it becomes a SEP issue.

Remember, the front line reps don't even have gamemaster access to the game itself. They can't do anything other than tell you how you might fix your issues with the game. That's part of why we're getting those cut and paste replies from them; that's as much as they need to know about the system, so most of the time, that's where their day ends.