Fennwitty wrote: »

Nogawd wrote: »

If you die in a normal dungeon...

It's not the tank or healers fault.

It's not the fake tank or healers fault.

It's yours.

Please remember not everyone's CP1200+ with years of experience.

I'm most concerned about the new players who go do dungeons for the first time using the random queue, and it's absolutely horrible for them.

Blah blah. You don't need 1200cp to cope with a fake healer, you need 1 self heal.

And while you're worrying about the fake healer, what about the genuine but really bad novice healer who's level 10 with no CP, all level 3 white gear and one heal and has never done a dungeon before? They'll be as little use as a DD fake queuing as a healer, in fact probably less use because for several classes you'll probably get better off heals from the dd (repentance from a Templar etc) than you would from the genuine healer.

Or what about the genuine but very bad tank who does have a taunt but dies all the time because he's level 10, doesn't understand heavy attack telltales, can't manage his resources and had terrible armour?

It's a random queue. Don't expect anyone you get to be any good at their role whether they're taking a role or actually doing it but just very badly. If you're worried about new players, direct them to a friendly guild that will teach them.

tmbrinks wrote: »

Do I get to yell at the fake DPS when I queue as an actual tank, in tank gear, and still do 50%+ of the DPS?

or when I queue as a real healer (with a resto staff!!) and do 80%+?

As a healer mainly, I've run into times where preforming the dual role of healer/main dps is necessary to keep the group alive to finish the dungeon. And of course if someone just stands there in red or green circles and dies half the map away, it's the healers fault .

For normal non dlc dungeons pretty much any 4 competent players can finish it. The dlc dungeons, even on normal are different. Many of them you have to know what to do even on normal level to beat it.

As someone who queues as a "real" templar healer spec (following alcasts's magika Templar build) what I can say from my experience is this.

1. There are definitely times where the performance of the tank is absolutely fine.
2. There are also some times where the performance of the tank is definitely questionable.
3. I'm sure they might think the same about me.
4. If I was forced to produce some kind of summary of tank performance I would say 1 is this case for more often than 2. I have no idea how often 3 is the case but I hope it is not that much .

On the subject of "fake" tanks (I use this term carefully because I'm conscious of the fact "fake" can also include

a) Inexperienced or new players
b) Players with poor internet connections
c) AFK Players
d) Players who have deliberately queued as the "wrong" type.

Of the above I would say players of types c) and d) are the major source of complaint so lets focus on those.

With type c) players, well, they're clearly just looking for a carry so good luck to them.

However my take is that type d) players are the main cause fro concern here so what I would say is this.

i. Presumably the strategy must "work", at least often enough to make doing it worthwhile?
ii. By "work" I mean that the player feels they can queue for the role and expect to successfully clear the dungeon and obtain whatever loot / quest objective they are aftrer.
iii. If It didn't "work" no-one would do it.

So if sufficient categrory d) players are doing this it begs the question, why is it possible to do this? That is where the solution to the problem lies, not with any kind of arbitrary filtering applied to the dungeon finder process.

Of course if people are queuing as a "fake" role and it doesn't "work" that quickly limits the options in that they are either:

a) Inexperienced or new players
b) [snip]
c) Trolls (and these do exist, I saw a few by the river outside Leyawiin the other day)

Unfortunately no dungeon finder tool will be able to determine type b) or c) players for you, but some slack should be given to type a) players as we all have to start somewhere.

[edited for rude/insulting comment]

This is a real problem, and my own way to combat this is by utilising the Armory System to its full potential, meaning, using specific builds. My main toon is a solo Nord DK, but as I want to get achievements and drops from say, DLC Dungeons, I made a DK tank with a good enough setup (Warden, Torug's, and Ebon Armory, but it's a shame though, still no Yolnakriin because I haven't played much Sunspire, and it would be great.

But this isn't enough, even though I play DK tank and rarely die if at all, I do encounter fake healers, and that is a real bane for the DPS, but, it is what it is, unless some restrictive features are added, this will always be a problem.

Then I made a new toon, exclusively a healer, and that was fun.

Rataroto wrote: »

Suppose I queue as a Tank, on a DPS character.

1. I taunt literally everything and even group up mobs via LOS.
2. I do not die.
3. I keep agro of boss during fights.
4. I self sustain and heal myself.

Just because I'm wearing medium/light armor using dual wield/2h/bow/inferno staves, does that make me a fake tank?

Unironically curious at the answer. Or rather, the answer to "What qualifies as a tank?"

> I don't queue as fake heals, because I can't provide stam heals xD. (But what if you were a stamden with lots of aoe heals, but you're also a dps?). Keep in mind, these are questions for NORMAL DUNGEONS. Since I don't do veteran dungeons with randoms.

Do you provide Weakening/Crusher/Breach/Off Balance and Vulnerability/Warhorn?
Can you soak most damage instead of running away, so that the Mobs stay in one place?

If yes, than no, you are not a Fake Tank.

tmbrinks wrote: »

Do I get to yell at the fake DPS when I queue as an actual tank, in tank gear, and still do 50%+ of the DPS?

or when I queue as a real healer (with a resto staff!!) and do 80%+?

Fake dps and bad dps are two different things. Yelling at someone for not being good at the game is not cool, in my opinion. I have never seen someone queued as dps that is only healing or tanking. Bad dps are way easier to work with than having no tank.

carlos424 wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Do I get to yell at the fake DPS when I queue as an actual tank, in tank gear, and still do 50%+ of the DPS?

or when I queue as a real healer (with a resto staff!!) and do 80%+?

Fake dps and bad dps are two different things. Yelling at someone for not being good at the game is not cool, in my opinion. I have never seen someone queued as dps that is only healing or tanking. Bad dps are way easier to work with than having no tank.

This was on vet. So I stand by my fake comments. When you can wear crafted gear and spam 1 skill and do 15-20k dps, doing less than that on vet means you aren't doing your role == fake.

(Also the "yell" was in reference to the OP, not that I actually do it. I've stopped queueing all together because I'll just run them with friends/guild members, so there are clear expectations. Have only said that response a dozen other times, but a DPS doing 5k damage is okay and gets a pass from these threads... my dungeon group that I've gotten every trifecta on in the game with rather likes my dps/healer hybrid that I run, pulling ~20k boss dps and 30-35k AoE... but I'm sure there's somebody who thinks I'm a "fake healer")

Uvi_AUT wrote: »

Rataroto wrote: »

Suppose I queue as a Tank, on a DPS character.

1. I taunt literally everything and even group up mobs via LOS.
2. I do not die.
3. I keep agro of boss during fights.
4. I self sustain and heal myself.

Just because I'm wearing medium/light armor using dual wield/2h/bow/inferno staves, does that make me a fake tank?

Unironically curious at the answer. Or rather, the answer to "What qualifies as a tank?"

> I don't queue as fake heals, because I can't provide stam heals xD. (But what if you were a stamden with lots of aoe heals, but you're also a dps?). Keep in mind, these are questions for NORMAL DUNGEONS. Since I don't do veteran dungeons with randoms.

Do you provide Weakening/Crusher/Breach/Off Balance and Vulnerability/Warhorn?
Can you soak most damage instead of running away, so that the Mobs stay in one place?

If yes, than no, you are not a Fake Tank.

I think many people that choose not to sweat the fake tank argument look at the expectations you set and see the hypocrisy in them.
There is not training dummy for tanking and your expectations for what a real tank is are actually very difficult for new players to master, even in full heavy armor, all the right skills, and all the right gear. But these are solid expectations to have of people you are playing with. But if someone turns around and holds DPS to the similar expectations, "ohmygoshnewplayers" and "playhowiwhat".

ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »

@Troodon80
Hate your comments because they sum up my experience so well I hardly have anything to add, but I will try 😂.
I started this game first and foremost to tank for my friends, but I have since branched DPS and healer roles. I have stopped queueing my tanks for random because I just keep running into teams that are poor at DPS(their responsibility). I now only tank for friends and guild mates because I trust they will play their role to the best of their abilities and communicate, and they can expect the same of me. My DPS are the only toons I queue in random now(as DPS role), because I know good DPS can compensate for 1 or more party members not carrying their weight better then a tank or healer.

You can build a tank that does acceptable dps (more than many less skilled PUG DPS toons - and I mean that without criticism of their playing abilities - normal dungeons are for anyone level 10 or up). For normal dungeon farming runs I've taken to running mostly templar tanks with all the stats in magicka or stamina, the CP loaded heavily for resistances and heavy body/legs with light/medium the rest. (and the CP matter - with no CP I imagine you'd need 20 in health)

Mag seems to be stronger because you've got better heals and spammable shields but stamplar also works pretty well and seems to pack more punch. For Mag toons it's as simple as mother's sorrow and medusa but with a couple of body medusa bits. For stamplar I've been using Ancient Dragonguard which give you damage and resistance depending upon your health and a damage set (Kvatch gladiator or Dreugh King Slayer if you can't rely on DK buffs)

I'm curious if anyone has done similar with MagDK/StamDK or Necro builds ?

Honestly I fake tank on my stamDK. It is rare this patch because curated drop make farm far easier. I'll wear support DPS sets like kinras, alkosh, or powerful assault and I slot inner beast. Outside of that it is basically your average 2h/dual wield build. I have cleared maybe normals this way with 0 complaints, and not a small single dungeon has been an issue.

But the thing is it is not a tanks responsibility to do damage. And no tank should be expected to have to do damage, hold aggro, debuff, and buff the party. I can do it because I have that experience, but I think it is just as much a disservice to new players to let them think the tank exists to do everything for the party. We have to set expectations for everyone in the party. Even the content I fake tank it normal DLC, so I expect people that are at least CP

ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »

Uvi_AUT wrote: »

Rataroto wrote: »

Suppose I queue as a Tank, on a DPS character.

1. I taunt literally everything and even group up mobs via LOS.
2. I do not die.
3. I keep agro of boss during fights.
4. I self sustain and heal myself.

Just because I'm wearing medium/light armor using dual wield/2h/bow/inferno staves, does that make me a fake tank?

Unironically curious at the answer. Or rather, the answer to "What qualifies as a tank?"

> I don't queue as fake heals, because I can't provide stam heals xD. (But what if you were a stamden with lots of aoe heals, but you're also a dps?). Keep in mind, these are questions for NORMAL DUNGEONS. Since I don't do veteran dungeons with randoms.

Do you provide Weakening/Crusher/Breach/Off Balance and Vulnerability/Warhorn?
Can you soak most damage instead of running away, so that the Mobs stay in one place?

If yes, than no, you are not a Fake Tank.

I think many people that choose not to sweat the fake tank argument look at the expectations you set and see the hypocrisy in them.
There is not training dummy for tanking and your expectations for what a real tank is are actually very difficult for new players to master, even in full heavy armor, all the right skills, and all the right gear. But these are solid expectations to have of people you are playing with. But if someone turns around and holds DPS to the similar expectations, "ohmygoshnewplayers" and "playhowiwhat".

Those are pretty much the base-expectations I have of myself before even entering a dungeon on my Tanks

I have a 'developing' tank (not a pun). It can hold it's own very well at 39k health, and usually is no problem in normals, depite not really yet being in a position to buff the group properly. Tonight I spent at least 15 minutes in Darkshade 2 where the PUG party got wiped at least 3 times before they decided to kick me. Though, each time I was the last to die by many minutes.

Apparently it seemed it was also my job to keep the party alive, and though after ressing a few of them each time as well as I could, they instantly get stomped again and then I spend another few minutes trying to solo it all. On the last time they'd had enough of me trying to win for them, with only a few 110k left on the boss, and with 3 votes, I was the weakest link.

Can't quite put my finger on what went wrong, maybe I should have concentrated more on the adds, EG being untauntable, and thus drawn them away from the DDs, but certainly the healer was a big pile of uselessness, rushed in with the others, let one of the DDs die on a miniboss earlier...

e.g. fake

starkerealm wrote: »

griffrawk wrote: »

...and with 3 votes, I was the weakest link.

Not sure if this is sarcasm so... no, that's not your fault.

Darkshade 2's mechanics will tap out the DPS who aren't careful about placement, and it's got a lot of mechanics that, as the tank, you cannot control. So, while it's possible you were doing something wrong, I wasn't there so I can't offer any detailed advice to your personal experience, it's far more likely that the DPS were responsible for their own deaths.

Yes it was sarcasm.

Yes very likely I wasn't following the mechanics very well. I've done it a few times as a DD, nb without dying so it isn't at all hard to stay upright, but the detailed knowledge doesn't manifest until you try to do it as another role. It was suggested to me by a 3rd party that looking after the adds may be better. I think this PUG was just sore I didn't run around ressing them.

griffrawk wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

griffrawk wrote: »

...and with 3 votes, I was the weakest link.

Not sure if this is sarcasm so... no, that's not your fault.

Darkshade 2's mechanics will tap out the DPS who aren't careful about placement, and it's got a lot of mechanics that, as the tank, you cannot control. So, while it's possible you were doing something wrong, I wasn't there so I can't offer any detailed advice to your personal experience, it's far more likely that the DPS were responsible for their own deaths.

Yes it was sarcasm.

Yes very likely I wasn't following the mechanics very well. I've done it a few times as a DD, nb without dying so it isn't at all hard to stay upright, but the detailed knowledge doesn't manifest until you try to do it as another role. It was suggested to me by a 3rd party that looking after the adds may be better. I think this PUG was just sore I didn't run around ressing them.

Fair. I just wanted to make sure you weren't actually beating yourself up over it. I didn't think you were, but it can be hard to judge on the internet.

On the final boss fight, yeah, all you can do is tag the Guardian with debuffs, and go back to trash management. Pulling the trash in for a quick burn can be very helpful, but it's also one of the rare fights that really can run on 4 DPS without issue. The best you can, reasonably, hope for is to taunt the trash, and chase the boss, though chucking razor legos at the trash is a legitimate way to slow them down and debuff them for burn with a minimal resource cost.