Detection potions - action needed

divnyi · December 2021

It is impossible to tell if the person has detection effect on them.
Right now, it feels like the person on other side is just cheating, because he follows you in invisibility without any visual indicators on his side.

It needs at least some visual indicator.
Or removed, because it is unfair anyway.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO · December 2021

Yeah it should either put the red eye above their head or the blue detection circle that some npcs have. Maybe both. Can't remove it though because its the only thing that instantly shuts down nerf nb threads.

Noctus · December 2021

divnyi wrote: »

It is impossible to tell if the person has detection effect on them.
Right now, it feels like the person on other side is just cheating, because he follows you in invisibility without any visual indicators on his side.

It needs at least some visual indicator.
Or removed, because it is unfair anyway.

XD did u write that during our match.

this is a double edged sword. in IC for example u can bait NB into going for the burst acting like u dont see it comming which is also a strat. in essence ur asking for NB to be buffed further.

u make a good point and i do see it would make sense but in this case its a give and take.

ppl are using detect pots to be save from suprise attacks from gankers. if u now see they have a detect pot up u can just wait in save distance untill its gone and they now have cd on pots.

u should see some effect when u are in a certain range. that might help.

divnyi · December 2021

Noctus wrote: »

u should see some effect when u are in a certain range. that might help.

Eh, fair. Like, if you are in range where you are exposed, you see some visuals.

(after game, but close

)

PvP_Exploiter · December 2021

Yup, been saying this for years.
Either needs a visual effect on the person with the potion active, or on you when it reveals you.
Only source of detection in the game that has no telegraph, and it's the strongest.

divnyi · December 2021

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

Only source of detection in the game that has no telegraph, and it's the strongest.

It's not only source since reveal skills got buffed. Try it, even Camo Hunter is very effective now.

Merlin13KAGL · December 2021

It should show you're detected. It shouldn't show the source of the detection.

They have to burn a pot to find you. Why shouldn't you have to burn a pot to 'find' them?

fred4 · December 2021

The blue indicator above you is fundamentally different from a detection potion. It means you cannot stealth and are visible to everyone. It's an effect on the target. The potion is an effect on the source. The user of the potion can see you. His mates cannot. It doesn't prevent you from cloaking. Neither does the Sentry set.

I'm fine with the mechanic as it is. I am a nightblade main and use detection potions myself. It's a tool to go after (other) nightblades, but few players use it systematically. In the sense that the game balances around rock, paper, scissors and does not attempt to balance every individual encounter, it's IMO balanced as is. Keep in mind that detection potions have already been nerfed. They lasted longer in the past.

I agree that being detected and not knowing it is painful. For the longest time I thought this was an oversight by ZOS. It seemed strange that friendly players could see the detection eye symbol, but the targets could not. Now that I'm reading this thread, I think ZOS actually got it right. If the target could see, they would simply wait it out, much like you might wait out a DKs Corrosive Armor.

Detection potions put nightblades to the test. They punish characters that are exclusively built into damage and have no defense. They punish players who eschew Shadow Image. Knowing when you are being detected gets easier with experience. I frequently know within one second. From being hit in cloak or simply from the way some players beeline towards me. The key is to shelve your disbelief and take alternative measures right away. Mainly this means that nightblades are not absolved from line-of-sighting. An experienced player has more tools at their disposal than just cloak. They will routinely use the environment, just like every other class, or they can survive via dodge rolls, blocking, shielding, healing or counterattack for a while.

EF321 · December 2021

On PC I think you can see detection buff with addons that show target buffs

EmperorIl · December 2021

Agreed 100%. Imagine if you could pop a potion to 100% penetrate a Sorc's shields.....how game breaking would that be for anyone running that build? This is detect pots to the cloakblade.

Qrähe · December 2021

I'm cool with this if detect works as written then. Get detected by a skill or ability and it blocks recloaking or invis for 4 seconds.

gariondavey · December 2021

Qrähe wrote: »

I'm cool with this if detect works as written then. Get detected by a skill or ability and it blocks recloaking or invis for 4 seconds.

Aren't you a twitch nightblade streamer?

Tiphis · December 2021

Cloak is the best single ability in the game bar none. I have very little sympathy for nb's.

PvP_Exploiter · December 2021

Tiphis wrote: »

Cloak is the best single ability in the game bar none. I have very little sympathy for nb's.

Streak > Cloak, not even close.

divnyi wrote: »

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

Only source of detection in the game that has no telegraph, and it's the strongest.

It's not only source since reveal skills got buffed. Try it, even Camo Hunter is very effective now.

Only source with no telegraph.
Camo Hunter makes users weapons glow blue, Magelight they have a blue orb circling them, flare and other AoEs are [snip] obvious.
Detection potion? Not a clue.
Really frustrating when for example you are not in an AoE path/radius they cast and you are revealed. You think it's nonsense desync or something, maybe move further away and try again. But it's a detect, not the ability so you just wasted another 3k+ magicka or whatever it costs.
With an indicator you'd be able to see it was a detect potion and change your move.

For example immovability potions, and CC immunity have the save effect or a swirling ring around players feet. Detect should have a uniform effect from all sources. Magelight, camo, and potions.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Zabagad · December 2021

I don't play NB and just to get sure I want to ask you:
If your oponent is using the pot - do you never see anything and you never see that your eye is opening?

I ask this, because on the other side - as the potion user - I see sometimes the red eye over my head, but very seldom these days.
There was same patches ago (I guess around U29?) a cycle where I got the red eye 100% of the time - one patch later it was 50%-50% and maybe since U31 I see it in only 1-2% of the time I use the pot.
This leads me to the possible reason, that they messed it up and only when I get the red eye the hidden player gets his eye opened?

Is this a possible explanation, that this is just a bug?

Tommy_The_Gun · December 2021

I think that invisibility & stealth is hugely inconsistent in this game - both in PvE & PvP.

For example, some enemies will remove stealth or invisibility the moment you are near them. But... some enemies will not lol. You don't know that, unless you did certain content. There is no way to tell beforehand, what enemies will have a magical power to detect you and what enemy will not see you at all. In addition, some enemies (for example all enemies in Falkreath Hold) will outright treat you as if you are visible 100% of the time - they will ignore stealth & invisibility effects you have.

Also, there are some npcs in the game (thieves guild, dark brotherhood and IC dlc) that have this "detection circle" around them. It is probably one of the best designed "stealth counters" in the game, as you literally know *** can detect you. It is a counter-play that has a counter-play.

As for PvP - things are also vastly inconsistent. Skills that counter cloak give some tiny form of counter-play as players who want to hide, know who has certain skills up (red eye icon). But why do potions or stealth detection sets dont have any indicator whatsoever ? It is weird and inconsistent.

If you would ask me, the ideal & consistent rules set would be quite simple: If an enemy can detect you if you walk too close - then those enemies should have a ring around them on the ground that follows them (just like some NPCs). It would be consistent. If an enemy can not detect you or does not have stealth detection buff - then they don't have any indicator. This would apply to all NPCs, mobs and players in PvP.

^ That would be the solution if we were living in a perfect world, but since, well, we don't live in a perfect world, at least a "red eye" icon would be nice. It does not matter if some one has detection skill or potion or set that increases detection radius - as long as "the ability to remove stealth or invisibility" is enhanced by anything - such NPC, mob or player in PvP should have "red eye" icon visible to their enemy over their head.

TLDR - Yes, Detection potions should have a "red eye" indicator as those work pretty much like detection skills. Detection skills have a "red eye" icon. Detection potions not having them are inconsistent. Same for detection sets. Those also should have a "red eye" indicator.

Also, just something that have come to my mind when I was writing this:

I remember being in that situation myself and also a couple of posts on forums about this: Some time in the past, detection skills did not had a "red eye" indicator. This meant that you could be in stealth or invisible, use detection skill and you would remain invisible yourself, while detecting others. This was considered "an exploit" at that time as players in IC & PvP in general were able to insta-kill some one who was in stealth and did not even seen the attacker.

Later on a "red eye" indicator was added to detection skill, and that meant you would not remain invisible while detecting others. Basically "red eye" will remove you from stealth / invisibility too if you cast a detection skill. However, Detection potions up to this day don't have a "red eye" indicator - meaning that you can still use them and remain hidden yourself. Idk why it was not added to detection potions, since regular detection skills without an indicator (that allowed to still remain hidden yourself) were considered an exploit.

Beardimus · December 2021

divnyi wrote: »

It is impossible to tell if the person has detection effect on them.
Right now, it feels like the person on other side is just cheating, because he follows you in invisibility without any visual indicators on his side.

It needs at least some visual indicator.
Or removed, because it is unfair anyway.

Disagre.

It's the counter. And funny watching the panicked running squaters

Zabagad · December 2021

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

However, Detection potions up to this day don't have a "red eye" indicator - meaning that you can still use them and remain hidden yourself. Idk why it was not added to detection potions, since regular detection skills without an indicator (that allowed to still remain hidden yourself) were considered an exploit.

And as I said above your post - detection potions had a "red eye" some updates ago...

EmperorIl · December 2021

Tiphis wrote: »

Cloak is the best single ability in the game bar none. I have very little sympathy for nb's.

Yet every other defining ability in every other class does not have as many counters, if any, as cloak does.

EmperorIl · December 2021

Beardimus wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

It is impossible to tell if the person has detection effect on them.
Right now, it feels like the person on other side is just cheating, because he follows you in invisibility without any visual indicators on his side.

It needs at least some visual indicator.
Or removed, because it is unfair anyway.

Disagre.

It's the counter. And funny watching the panicked running squaters

What class do you main? I am sure any of us can pick apart all the overpowered things....

Tiphis · December 2021

EmperorIl wrote: »

Tiphis wrote: »

Cloak is the best single ability in the game bar none. I have very little sympathy for nb's.

Yet every other defining ability in every other class does not have as many counters, if any, as cloak does.

Really? Like what? Understand that it must be an ability that has both defensive and offensive capabilities and must be capable of completely nullifying more than half the damage in the game. Also some of the counters must provide almost no actual benefit to anything other than countering it. So I guess the closest is dodge except that every class can use it.

Sorcs- Streak: countered by ranged, gap closers, dots. Is effective at mobility and ccing. Can be used to kite well. Closest ability in potency but has too many counters and counters too little damage.

... I'm not even sure what other "defining ability" is even in the same ballpark...

Templars... Jabs: Major evasion reduces dmg by 20%, 5x medium armor dodge gives another 10% dmg reduction, CP is another 10-20%. Conal melee. Does give self heal/ minor protection.

Warden- Arctic Wind?: Heal with a unblockable cc. Countered by ranged, smart melee, cc break usable by everybody. And it's a heal so it heals yourself.

Necro.. I guess blastbones? Mortal Coil? Not even on the same plane as cloak.

MagDK: Fossilize is still very good but is countered by ccbreaking and RAT/shuffle/Forward Momentum/Dodge/Any purge/just fighting while immobilized. Can easily tell the good players from the bad when they just continue fighting while immobilized because unless the magdk kites they can simply continue to duke it out in melee.

Camo Hunter is much less useful overall because of the gutting of crit from medium builds, leaving it most used by stamblades for that guaranteed crit from cloak, which makes nb good at countering cloak... from other nbs... wait a minute.

Mage light is okay on mag builds curtesy of more crit on the light armor passives, but largely is still outgunned by simply going malacath. And good luck going mostly light on anything other than maybe a magsorc or magblade. Magsorc because of shields and magblade because of cloak... wait a minute.

Flare is definitely good for maj protection and is probably the best counter for cloak as it "costs" the least to use in terms of power.

Detect pots, very good counter so long as the nb doesn't use shade, speed, intelligence etc. Detect pots have a 33% uptime and the player then forgoes tristat pots and the offstat regen that they come with. People will rarely hold pots while fighting non nbs just to be able to pop a detect pot when one does show up. Can't tell you how many times I'm fighting, a nb tries to gank me and fails but I dont have a detect pot up because I was using tripots during the fight with the others.

AOE's very useful at countering nb cloak, but if the only defensive you have is cloak, while no other class can ever run 1 defensive ability, then yes you die. There's a reason there are no dk, necro, warden, sorc, templar gankers.

OBJnoob · December 2021

I think an indicator should be visible to the person revealed, so the nightblade will know what's up and be able to act appropriately, but that the indicator should not tell them who is doing it.

Having to waste a potion is a pretty costly counter... the nightblade shouldn't immediately know who did it and how long to wait. Then it's no counter at all.

I want nightblades to have their identity and be balanced but if they seriously need to be invisible 24/7 to be viable then they need buffs that have nothing to do with being invisible.

Beardimus · December 2021

EmperorIl wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

It is impossible to tell if the person has detection effect on them.
Right now, it feels like the person on other side is just cheating, because he follows you in invisibility without any visual indicators on his side.

It needs at least some visual indicator.
Or removed, because it is unfair anyway.

Disagre.

It's the counter. And funny watching the panicked running squaters

What class do you main? I am sure any of us can pick apart all the overpowered things....

I'm sure you can @EmperorIl but this isn't a personal attack or anything to do with what class I play or what other skills are strong.

The debate is about detection pots, and I think they working as intended. They are a counter and take up a slot of something else so for Mag that's Tri stat or even spell power. Pro and Con.

baselesschart · December 2021

Easy way to tell someone has used a detect pot. Your character casts the animation but then it has no effect. If they were using magelight or camo hunter I completely believe they would be close enough to your character to see that

fred4 · December 2021

Zabagad wrote: »

If your oponent is using the pot - do you never see anything and you never see that your eye is opening?

Correct.

This leads me to the possible reason, that they messed it up and only when I get the red eye the hidden player gets his eye opened?
Is this a possible explanation, that this is just a bug?

Not really. The eye is not opened, because you are not exposed to everyone. It is only the potion user who can see you. That guy may change this in short order, because his / her attacks may expose you, but up till that point your eye will stay closed.

Disclaimer: I rarely watch the eye, because as a magblade I hardly ever crouch. I rely almost exclusively on Shadowy Disguise. I'm pretty sure I got this right, though.

fred4 · December 2021

Zabagad wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

However, Detection potions up to this day don't have a "red eye" indicator - meaning that you can still use them and remain hidden yourself. Idk why it was not added to detection potions, since regular detection skills without an indicator (that allowed to still remain hidden yourself) were considered an exploit.

And as I said above your post - detection potions had a "red eye" some updates ago...

And how would you square a cloaked nightblade using a detection potion, huh? I suppose you're just looking for consistency from the nightblade's point of view, but you're not really doing PvP nightblades a favor. Casting Magelight / Camou Hunter exposes you. It knocks you out of cloak. It also alerts targets that they've been detected. Casting a detection skill as a nightblade can backfire spectacularly when the target immediately counterattacks.

Detection potions work both for and against the nightblade. I'm not playing devil's advocate here. I main a nightblade. This is a straight up fact. Those potions are as useful to the nightblade as being caught out by one is painful. Not least when I'm attacking some random target that is NOT a nightblade, but who is bait and has a nightblade partner or a whole guild sitting around them in crouch. Since I use detection (plus spell power) potions by default as I go in for a gank, I get to see whether the field is clear and can silently abandon at the last second. That wouldn't work, if I became visible to the enemy and had an eye over my head.

All in all, your opinion may differ, but I'll take the game as it currently is, because I see not only it's disadvantages, but also it's advantages as a nightblade.

fred4 · December 2021

Tiphis wrote: »

EmperorIl wrote: »

Tiphis wrote: »

Cloak is the best single ability in the game bar none. I have very little sympathy for nb's.

Yet every other defining ability in every other class does not have as many counters, if any, as cloak does.

Really? Like what? Understand that it must be an ability that has both defensive and offensive capabilities and must be capable of completely nullifying more than half the damage in the game. Also some of the counters must provide almost no actual benefit to anything other than countering it. So I guess the closest is dodge except that every class can use it.

Sorcs- Streak: countered by ranged, gap closers, dots. Is effective at mobility and ccing. Can be used to kite well. Closest ability in potency but has too many counters and counters too little damage.

... I'm not even sure what other "defining ability" is even in the same ballpark...

Templars... Jabs: Major evasion reduces dmg by 20%, 5x medium armor dodge gives another 10% dmg reduction, CP is another 10-20%. Conal melee. Does give self heal/ minor protection.

Warden- Arctic Wind?: Heal with a unblockable cc. Countered by ranged, smart melee, cc break usable by everybody. And it's a heal so it heals yourself.

Necro.. I guess blastbones? Mortal Coil? Not even on the same plane as cloak.

MagDK: Fossilize is still very good but is countered by ccbreaking and RAT/shuffle/Forward Momentum/Dodge/Any purge/just fighting while immobilized. Can easily tell the good players from the bad when they just continue fighting while immobilized because unless the magdk kites they can simply continue to duke it out in melee.

Camo Hunter is much less useful overall because of the gutting of crit from medium builds, leaving it most used by stamblades for that guaranteed crit from cloak, which makes nb good at countering cloak... from other nbs... wait a minute.

Mage light is okay on mag builds curtesy of more crit on the light armor passives, but largely is still outgunned by simply going malacath. And good luck going mostly light on anything other than maybe a magsorc or magblade. Magsorc because of shields and magblade because of cloak... wait a minute.

Flare is definitely good for maj protection and is probably the best counter for cloak as it "costs" the least to use in terms of power.

Detect pots, very good counter so long as the nb doesn't use shade, speed, intelligence etc. Detect pots have a 33% uptime and the player then forgoes tristat pots and the offstat regen that they come with. People will rarely hold pots while fighting non nbs just to be able to pop a detect pot when one does show up. Can't tell you how many times I'm fighting, a nb tries to gank me and fails but I dont have a detect pot up because I was using tripots during the fight with the others.

AOE's very useful at countering nb cloak, but if the only defensive you have is cloak, while no other class can ever run 1 defensive ability, then yes you die. There's a reason there are no dk, necro, warden, sorc, templar gankers.

I suppose it would be more accurate to say that the counters to cloak are very binary. The skill either works really well or fails miserably. I certainly feel quite screwed when being chased down by players that have mastered countering nightblades. The combination of Streak and detection potions is the nightblade hunting spec you come across most often. I wouldn't underestimate a traditional mag DK either, at least when you don't have a shade down. Simply the extra reach DKs have on melee abilities is noticeable. Then there is the complete nightmare spec that combines detection potions with the Sentry set. Throw in some potion cooldown reduction or potion effect extension and you have 100% uptime. Rare, but if someone makes a sport of hunting nightblades, Cloak is thoroughly negated. Bombard spammers in groups are another example. A couple of years ago they were really popular and ZOS removed the root from that skill in PvP after complaints. Well, guess what, the root was silently put back a few patches later. A nightblade that relies on Cloak and not Shadow Image, like mine, is basically just dead, when faced with the root + reveal spam of Bombard.

fred4 · December 2021

baselesschart wrote: »

Easy way to tell someone has used a detect pot. Your character casts the animation but then it has no effect.

This is incorrect. A detection potion affects the user of the potion only. They can now see nightblades and crouching players in general. It does not inhibit targets using cloak. It differs from Magelight / Camou Hunter in that regard.

baselesschart · December 2021

fred4 wrote: »

This is incorrect. A detection potion affects the user of the potion only. They can now see nightblades and crouching players in general. It does not inhibit targets using cloak. It differs from Magelight / Camou Hunter in that regard.

I know it only affects the user but it still prevents you from cloaking and becoming invisible to that user, there has never been a point in time where I questioned if it was a detect pot because its not hard to tell. If you don't have the visual cue indicating magelight/camo then its almost undoubtedly detect pots.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO · December 2021

Ok we can keep detect potions as is, but they have to add a new poison effect. Noodle arm: while afflicted with noodle arm your block mitigation gets set to 0% for 15 seconds. No visual indicator that you are afflicted, you just have to pay attention to your hp bar and get gud. Cannot be purged either, honestly you shouldn't be able to counter a counter. Its actually balanced because you can still dodge roll and use shield spells while its active.

divnyi · December 2021

Beardimus wrote: »

It's the counter.

Ok, so why do we have a potion effect that counters one class specifically, but no other effect that counter best moves from other classes again?

Zabagad wrote: »

I don't play NB and just to get sure I want to ask you:
If your oponent is using the pot - do you never see anything and you never see that your eye is opening?

No, no visuals. That's the thing.

fred4 wrote: »

The blue indicator above you is fundamentally different from a detection potion. It means you cannot stealth and are visible to everyone. It's an effect on the target. The potion is an effect on the source. The user of the potion can see you. His mates cannot. It doesn't prevent you from cloaking. Neither does the Sentry set.

Make same animation with different color, say, red. So you only know that you are seen when you are actually seen.

baselesschart wrote: »

Easy way to tell someone has used a detect pot. Your character casts the animation but then it has no effect. If they were using magelight or camo hunter I completely believe they would be close enough to your character to see that

It's not enough if player hits you with actual AoEs but with insane precision, or runs straight at you with camo hunter on.