Detection potions - action needed

baselesschart

divnyi wrote: »

It's not enough if player hits you with actual AoEs but with insane precision, or runs straight at you with camo hunter on.

Well thats another issue entirely with certain AoEs still breaking stealth that I don't think should.

divnyi

Tiphis wrote: »

Sorcs- Streak: countered by ranged, gap closers, dots.

Dots? Like, how? What I basically hear here is "it is countered by damage". Amazing, players die when they take damage. How I didn't thought about that?

Streak is undodgeable and unblockable AoE stun with biggest range in the game, and also gapcloser, and also escape tool, and also deals decent AoE damage.

No true counters to streak as escape tool in this game: you can start streaking on enemy, and do second streak in his stun, resulting in bigger range than his gap closer.

Tiphis wrote: »

... I'm not even sure what other "defining ability" is even in the same ballpark...

Dark Deal.
It allows to run on zero sustain or almost zero sustain without an issue.

Tiphis wrote: »

Templars... Jabs: Major evasion reduces dmg by 20%, 5x medium armor dodge gives another 10% dmg reduction, CP is another 10-20%. Conal melee. Does give self heal/ minor protection.

https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/biting-jabs
https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/burning-light
872*4+1348 = 4836

https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/dizzying-swing
2760

4836/2760 = 175%

Reductions: Major evasion = 20%, medium armors = 10%. CP reductions are the same for non-plars.

0.8*0.9 = 72%

72% * 175% = 125%
-- still more after all specific protections than any spammable of any other class do.

Tiphis wrote: »

Warden- Arctic Wind?

Lol what, anyone considers Arctic Wind to be a viable skill in Warden?
It's subterranean attack ofc.

Tiphis wrote: »

Necro.. I guess blastbones? ... Not even on the same plane as cloak.

Idk, you don't understand why people value big delayed AoE damage or what?
Same as chalks, this skill makes easy burst kills.

Tiphis wrote: »

Necro..

Self-synergy graveyard for more burst.

Tiphis wrote: »

MagDK

Best dots in the game coupled with bursty whip.

Tiphis wrote: »

Camo Hunter is much less useful overall because of the gutting of crit from medium builds

You got it all backwards.
Since medium armor buffs crit damage now, taking this skill boosts damage MORE than before, and it's definitely worth playing if you are not running Malacath.

Tiphis wrote: »

Mage light is okay on mag builds curtesy of more crit on the light armor passives, but largely is still outgunned by simply going malacath.

You can go mala and magelight. Mana% is boost in the damage as is.

Tiphis wrote: »

And good luck going mostly light

You can use it in heavy armor too.

Tiphis wrote: »

There's a reason there are no dk, necro, warden, sorc, templar gankers.

And also wrong. I was ganking in fast magplar lvl1 vamp, was definitely enough for ICs.

divnyi

baselesschart wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

It's not enough if player hits you with actual AoEs but with insane precision, or runs straight at you with camo hunter on.

Well thats another issue entirely with certain AoEs still breaking stealth that I don't think should.

Direct damage AoE hits break stealth. It's intentional and fair.

baselesschart

divnyi wrote: »

Direct damage AoE hits break stealth. It's intentional and fair.

I don't disagree with that. Although I do get frustrated with jabs not necessarily because it breaks stealth but the insane amount of utility it has in addition to breaking stealth

divnyi

baselesschart wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Direct damage AoE hits break stealth. It's intentional and fair.

I don't disagree with that. Although I do get frustrated with jabs not necessarily because it breaks stealth but the insane amount of utility it has in addition to breaking stealth

Snare. When you are hit with jabs, aside from damage ofc, you have that snare. Because you know that you can't go away, or even dodge out and go away.

But imo it is only fair. You shouldn't be in the range of jabs if you are not intended to burst down.
Also you can sidestep it forward-left and forward-right, most of the time it won't work, but sometimes it does.

Tiphis

divnyi wrote: »

Tiphis wrote: »

Sorcs- Streak: countered by ranged, gap closers, dots.

Dots? Like, how? What I basically hear here is "it is countered by damage". Amazing, players die when they take damage. How I didn't thought about that?

Streak is undodgeable and unblockable AoE stun with biggest range in the game, and also gapcloser, and also escape tool, and also deals decent AoE damage.

No true counters to streak as escape tool in this game: you can start streaking on enemy, and do second streak in his stun, resulting in bigger range than his gap closer.

Tiphis wrote: »

... I'm not even sure what other "defining ability" is even in the same ballpark...

Dark Deal.
It allows to run on zero sustain or almost zero sustain without an issue.

Tiphis wrote: »

Templars... Jabs: Major evasion reduces dmg by 20%, 5x medium armor dodge gives another 10% dmg reduction, CP is another 10-20%. Conal melee. Does give self heal/ minor protection.

https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/biting-jabs
https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/burning-light
872*4+1348 = 4836

https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/dizzying-swing
2760

4836/2760 = 175%

Reductions: Major evasion = 20%, medium armors = 10%. CP reductions are the same for non-plars.

0.8*0.9 = 72%

72% * 175% = 125%
-- still more after all specific protections than any spammable of any other class do.

Tiphis wrote: »

Warden- Arctic Wind?

Lol what, anyone considers Arctic Wind to be a viable skill in Warden?
It's subterranean attack ofc.

Tiphis wrote: »

Necro.. I guess blastbones? ... Not even on the same plane as cloak.

Idk, you don't understand why people value big delayed AoE damage or what?
Same as chalks, this skill makes easy burst kills.

Tiphis wrote: »

Necro..

Self-synergy graveyard for more burst.

Tiphis wrote: »

MagDK

Best dots in the game coupled with bursty whip.

Tiphis wrote: »

Camo Hunter is much less useful overall because of the gutting of crit from medium builds

You got it all backwards.
Since medium armor buffs crit damage now, taking this skill boosts damage MORE than before, and it's definitely worth playing if you are not running Malacath.

Tiphis wrote: »

Mage light is okay on mag builds curtesy of more crit on the light armor passives, but largely is still outgunned by simply going malacath.

You can go mala and magelight. Mana% is boost in the damage as is.

Tiphis wrote: »

And good luck going mostly light

You can use it in heavy armor too.

Tiphis wrote: »

There's a reason there are no dk, necro, warden, sorc, templar gankers.

And also wrong. I was ganking in fast magplar lvl1 vamp, was definitely enough for ICs.

Too lazy to deal with the annoying individual forum quoting.

1. Streak. Yes damage, the thing that cloak avoids. Did you forget that?
2. Dark Deal allows you to avoid more than half the damage in the game? Must've forgotten about that
3. Cp reductions are not the same as no other class is forced into using mostly aoes. Left out passives because then I'm tacking on the 9% damage reduction cloak also gives. Also the guaranteed crit can sit at 200% and so it's more alot more than jabs
4. You consider an aoe ability that brings nothing else to the table comparable to cloak? What? Sub Assault does nothing for defense unlike cloak, is the easiest ability in the game to mitigate, I typically avoid about 2/3 of them by moving, and usually block the other third. Everybody knows sub assault is a pug killer.
5. ...What? Cloak is obviously better than BB. BB is a bit harder to avoid than sub assault curtesy of the randomness of the burst damage, but still
6. Necro graveyard isn't better than cloak. I'm not even sure what you're arguing at this point. Just don't stand in it, I'm slightly above average in skill and rarely get caught in it, only works well if paired with dcon when you dont avoid it, have cc immunity, or block, of which you should definitely be doing.
7. MagDK dots and whip??? I'm not sure what's going on now but you seem very confused. Are you comparing a whole build to cloak??? ... I guess you are right a magdk in a pvp build will win against a nb who has no other abilities other than cloak... Is that the point you're trying to make?
8. Yes camo hunter is most useful for stamblades curtesy of guaranteed crit on cloak. Having all the crit damage in the world is useless with low crit, and investing in it means a greater loss of power than you gain.
9. Again inner light is rarely worth the slot you give up
10. Yeah and investing in crit in heavy, doesn't pay. Are you taking the 10% more single target damage or 10% more crit. Ofc the single target damage. Direct damage? ofc. And you really ought to invest in at least one of the dmg reduction cps and the other either another defensive or 10% more healing. Only class that can avoid that would be... yet again and as I said which somehow you forgot... nb.
11. ... What are you talking about? [snip] That's not what ganking means colloquially. I... honestly don't know what to say. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

divnyi

Tiphis wrote: »

That's not what ganking means colloquially.

It means to kill enemys from stealth faster then they can do any move. Plar with acuity does exactly that.

Tiphis wrote: »

4. You consider an aoe ability that brings nothing else to the table comparable to cloak? What? Sub Assault does nothing for defense unlike cloak, is the easiest ability in the game to mitigate, I typically avoid about 2/3 of them by moving, and usually block the other third. Everybody knows sub assault is a pug killer.

It is unblockable. Neither you can dodge it if opponent is good.

Tiphis wrote: »

1. Streak. Yes damage, the thing that cloak avoids. Did you forget that?

Ironically, it doesn't avoid damage streak do.

Are you comparing a whole build to cloak???

Do you run Fossilize only on DK? No? Then why this question?
Ofc I'm comparing the whole skill arsenal any class offers.

NB is Cloak. All the other skills in NB arsenal are fair. Fair isn't enough to be meta.

Tiphis wrote: »

Are you taking the 10% more single target damage or 10% more crit. Ofc the single target damage. Direct damage? ofc. And you really ought to invest in at least one of the dmg reduction cps and the other either another defensive or 10% more healing. Only class that can avoid that would be... yet again and as I said which somehow you forgot... nb.

I do all of what you mentioned on crit stamsorc and that feels good.

[snip]
I've played all the things that you said "this is bad" and they wasn't bad in my hands.

Also if cloak is so cool and better than anything any other class can offer, it means you are playing nightblade, right?

[edited for baiting]

Zabagad

fred4 wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

However, Detection potions up to this day don't have a "red eye" indicator - meaning that you can still use them and remain hidden yourself. Idk why it was not added to detection potions, since regular detection skills without an indicator (that allowed to still remain hidden yourself) were considered an exploit.

And as I said above your post - detection potions had a "red eye" some updates ago...

And how would you square a cloaked nightblade using a detection potion, huh? I suppose you're just looking for consistency from the nightblade's point of view, but you're not really doing PvP nightblades a favor. Casting Magelight / Camou Hunter exposes you. It knocks you out of cloak. It also alerts targets that they've been detected. Casting a detection skill as a nightblade can backfire spectacularly when the target immediately counterattacks.

Detection potions work both for and against the nightblade. I'm not playing devil's advocate here. I main a nightblade. This is a straight up fact. Those potions are as useful to the nightblade as being caught out by one is painful. Not least when I'm attacking some random target that is NOT a nightblade, but who is bait and has a nightblade partner or a whole guild sitting around them in crouch. Since I use detection (plus spell power) potions by default as I go in for a gank, I get to see whether the field is clear and can silently abandon at the last second. That wouldn't work, if I became visible to the enemy and had an eye over my head.

All in all, your opinion may differ, but I'll take the game as it currently is, because I see not only it's disadvantages, but also it's advantages as a nightblade.

Your fist answer to me was quit helpful, but this post...?
I don't understand at all what you are discussing here?
I never discussed any of your topics (as far as I understand them - some of them I don't understand).
So I don't even know what you mean with my opinion - I have none

I only answered to Tommy, because what he said is wrong.
There was the "red eye" above the detection potion user - which is almost out of the game.
I found a video on my harddisc from 1,5 years ago and I can see, that whenever I used the pot (I use the same as you as my default), I got the red eye above my char.
I don't even know that eye was only visible for me, or other alliance member could see it too, or it was even visible to the enemys. If I remember right, I never saw it on others - so I guess it was only for the user itself.
And only based on that "missing red eye" since several patches - I had a theory(not an opinion) - but you said already that the sneaky eye never opens and so the theory was wrong.

NordSwordnBoard

I agree with the point that a NB would just wait until potion cooldown to attack. No immovable or other pots if you just used a detect.

Reveal skills can be spammed and have indicators. You obviously can't spam pots.

The only time I use detect pots is when I'm healing, not mobile enough, or lack a good skill to use instead. Any good NBs I encounter, I more likely kill them from keeping pressure up and guessing correctly than from getting the jump on them from detect pots. I could see a coordinated group focus an unsuspecting nb to instakill, but that's rather specific.

BronzeCaiman

I been saying for years that cloak and streak are the reasons the pvp will always remain something that favors class and not skill, but i main a Necro these days so I just do BGs for 7k AP at this point.

L_Nici

I am pretty sure there was an indication once. As far as I remember your sneak eye did open if you got a detect potion user near you. But then suddenly that stopped at some point.

Tiphis

divnyi wrote: »

Tiphis wrote: »

That's not what ganking means colloquially.

It means to kill enemys from stealth faster then they can do any move. Plar with acuity does exactly that.

Tiphis wrote: »

4. You consider an aoe ability that brings nothing else to the table comparable to cloak? What? Sub Assault does nothing for defense unlike cloak, is the easiest ability in the game to mitigate, I typically avoid about 2/3 of them by moving, and usually block the other third. Everybody knows sub assault is a pug killer.

It is unblockable. Neither you can dodge it if opponent is good.

Tiphis wrote: »

1. Streak. Yes damage, the thing that cloak avoids. Did you forget that?

Ironically, it doesn't avoid damage streak do.

Are you comparing a whole build to cloak???

Do you run Fossilize only on DK? No? Then why this question?
Ofc I'm comparing the whole skill arsenal any class offers.

NB is Cloak. All the other skills in NB arsenal are fair. Fair isn't enough to be meta.

Tiphis wrote: »

Are you taking the 10% more single target damage or 10% more crit. Ofc the single target damage. Direct damage? ofc. And you really ought to invest in at least one of the dmg reduction cps and the other either another defensive or 10% more healing. Only class that can avoid that would be... yet again and as I said which somehow you forgot... nb.

I do all of what you mentioned on crit stamsorc and that feels good.

[snip]
I've played all the things that you said "this is bad" and they wasn't bad in my hands.

Also if cloak is so cool and better than anything any other class can offer, it means you are playing nightblade, right?

Wrong, acuity is done. I am talking about present, not the last 7 years worth of patches.

Wrong, Sub Assault is blockable. Wrong, it isn’t hard to avoid.

You do realize what my op was about right? Just reread it again. Still not sure how you are still confused.

Interesting build. I’d be a bit worried about the lack of damage abilities, coupled with the lack of defensive options, coupled with the lack of mobility. Sul-xans is good in zerg fights but just bad in small scale or 1v1s, not to mention the loss of one stat line entirely. You’d be very susceptible to being one shot from nbs and magsorcs. And may not have enough sustained damage to get through any semi tanky build. Block is the best mitigation possible in the game by a mile, so still rocking sithis on anything besides a nb or magsorc is interesting to say the least. Running melee silver shards is a novel idea, not sure how well you do as a brawler though, especially without any sustained damage. Also not sure how no hard or soft cc at all would work out.

And I play all classes/builds in almost every game I play. Get bored way too quickly even if I’m doing well on one build. I’ve tried almost every semi viable build over the years.

[edited to remove quote]

divnyi

Tiphis wrote: »

Wrong, acuity is done. I am talking about present, not the last 7 years worth of patches.

Was never done for plar with that jabs.

Tiphis wrote: »

Interesting build. I’d be a bit worried about the lack of damage abilities, coupled with the lack of defensive options, coupled with the lack of mobility. Sul-xans is good in zerg fights but just bad in small scale or 1v1s, not to mention the loss of one stat line entirely. You’d be very susceptible to being one shot from nbs and magsorcs. And may not have enough sustained damage to get through any semi tanky build. Block is the best mitigation possible in the game by a mile, so still rocking sithis on anything besides a nb or magsorc is interesting to say the least. Running melee silver shards is a novel idea, not sure how well you do as a brawler though, especially without any sustained damage. Also not sure how no hard or soft cc at all would work out.

It is demi-range. You miss auto from range, but you also hit harder with double dagger skill, and it's also AoE.

Gaze is enough for toughness in the most occasions, coupled with heals from critsurge (procs from AoE dots) and Vigor and Dark Deal. It also rolls Major+Minor exp for mobility, it is enough to keep up with a group and do proper positioning. Charge ability often doubles as escape in teamfights also.

Yes, it is groupfight build. It was created for BGs, where it shines. It is not strong enough in 1v1 or in 1vX (where you need to have superior survivability). It is good in smallscale with healer tho.

No, it has no lack of damage, especially sustained damage. You cast 2 AoE dots before the fight starts, you dash in with Maelstrom Stampede (3 dot layers on target so far, +1 on ground). Then you just spam cheap and strong demi-range AoE spammable, that hits harder on vamps. And you can spam it all day, because darkdeals. All damage crits and has insane damage mod on crit. It is enough to pressure and outsustain any tank, except maybe self-sustained permablockers that do no damage.

Tiphis wrote: »

I’ve tried almost every semi viable build over the years.

I bet that's not true. I have ideas how to exploit various aspects of game mechanics, more ideas than I have free time in fact.
And I can tell that about 2/3 of those ideas will end up in viable builds.

Kordai

OBJnoob wrote: »

Most of the best moves from other classes can be countered by active defensive measures like blocking or dodging. Or by slotting and using certain skills like purge. Nightblades aren't at all the only thing to be hard countered. Compared to the cost of other counters though having to use a potion is a pretty steep cost. I find it well balanced.

If your entire build is ruined because you can be seen... I mean... sorry your build is so terrible at everything except being invisible? Believe it or not that helpless feeling is the same feeling everybody else has when getting ganked.

Agreed, alot of the lesser skilled nbs build without any counter to cloak being possible. A decent nb will simply not cloak when they see camo hunter/mage light going out in radius or get hit while invis indicating a detect pot.

divnyi wrote: »

Tiphis wrote: »

Wrong, acuity is done. I am talking about present, not the last 7 years worth of patches.

Was never done for plar with that jabs.

Well tbf acuity is still pretty bad on jabs, it doesn't pay as a fb set. Much better off using FB briar and BB Vate2H. Even deadly with jesus beam is solid but requires alot of mag.

divnyi wrote: »

Tiphis wrote: »

Interesting build. I’d be a bit worried about the lack of damage abilities, coupled with the lack of defensive options, coupled with the lack of mobility. Sul-xans is good in zerg fights but just bad in small scale or 1v1s, not to mention the loss of one stat line entirely. You’d be very susceptible to being one shot from nbs and magsorcs. And may not have enough sustained damage to get through any semi tanky build. Block is the best mitigation possible in the game by a mile, so still rocking sithis on anything besides a nb or magsorc is interesting to say the least. Running melee silver shards is a novel idea, not sure how well you do as a brawler though, especially without any sustained damage. Also not sure how no hard or soft cc at all would work out.

It is demi-range. You miss auto from range, but you also hit harder with double dagger skill, and it's also AoE.

Gaze is enough for toughness in the most occasions, coupled with heals from critsurge (procs from AoE dots) and Vigor and Dark Deal. It also rolls Major+Minor exp for mobility, it is enough to keep up with a group and do proper positioning. Charge ability often doubles as escape in teamfights also.

Yes, it is groupfight build. It was created for BGs, where it shines. It is not strong enough in 1v1 or in 1vX (where you need to have superior survivability). It is good in smallscale with healer tho.

No, it has no lack of damage, especially sustained damage. You cast 2 AoE dots before the fight starts, you dash in with Maelstrom Stampede (3 dot layers on target so far, +1 on ground). Then you just spam cheap and strong demi-range AoE spammable, that hits harder on vamps. And you can spam it all day, because darkdeals. All damage crits and has insane damage mod on crit. It is enough to pressure and outsustain any tank, except maybe self-sustained permablockers that do no damage.

Tiphis wrote: »

I’ve tried almost every semi viable build over the years.

I bet that's not true. I have ideas how to exploit various aspects of game mechanics, more ideas than I have free time in fact.
And I can tell that about 2/3 of those ideas will end up in viable builds.

I'd like to give your build a try as I haven't ran a crit kitty stamsorc since the good old days of all unique buffs. I'd just worry that outside large scale fights I wouldn't have the ability to kit or heal through. Is the critted shards more damage than Dswing, Crystal blast, medium, executioner? Also as you are on the slower side is it hard to kite? Especially without any stun. Why run deadly cloak not streak? The aoe damage is largely lost when you fight from range anyway. Also why use stampede? Would crit rush give you more damage for your shard>crit rush combo? Especially because I doubt anybody would stand in it for long. Is sul-xans awkward to get to in large fights, especially from range? (Never used it so not sure if the location of the soul is convenient) I've tried essence thief and I know the spot is now pretty convenient but I've had awkward fights where the uptime isn't so good.

divnyi

Kordai wrote: »

Well tbf acuity is still pretty bad on jabs, it doesn't pay as a fb set.

Worse because longer cooldown, but very far from bad. If you max out crit mods it is still top damage multiplier in that bust window.

Kordai wrote: »

I'd just worry that outside large scale fights I wouldn't have the ability to kit or heal through.

If you survive the burst, you heal through. HoT is insane with surge&rally, actively casting dark deals add raw healing on top.
It's not immortal build, it's just enough to survive most burst setups.

Kite is other beast. I don't slot streak because it gets harder to sustain mag that I extensively use to recover stam and keep shooting. And, I didn't really use it a lot tbh. But I don't often play outside BGs, you can actually slot streak instead, say, bond weapons.

Kordai wrote: »

The aoe damage is largely lost when you fight from range anyway.

It is not melee, it is not ranged. It is demirange. Quite a number of builds I do have both ranged and melee spammables on same bar, to be able to put maximum amount of continuous damage in both scenarios.

When you see melee, you kite a bit and cheat 2-3 shots before trying to engage and finish.
When you see ranged, you charge in and try to outdps asap. If you start from afar, send one shards before entering charge range.

Also why use stampede?

It is AoE damage, not just on DoT, but on spammable part too.
In CP, it means all damage you do is AoE.
Dot it leaves on the ground proc maelstrom 2h dot on random bypassers.
Sometimes ppl still stand in dot, like when you stampede -> atro.

Is sul-xans awkward to get to in large fights, especially from range? (Never used it so not sure if the location of the soul is convenient) I've tried essence thief and I know the spot is now pretty convenient but I've had awkward fights where the uptime isn't so good.

It is generally pretty convenient.
It spawns exactly on the body on dead player. In 1vs1, it means you pick it up automatically, because you generally dash in when you finish.

In larger fights it can spawn randomly somewhere, as you graze ppl with crossbow and it counts for assist. No big deal, I don't pick it up unless it's very close, it disappears in 5s and I will be able to find some that spawned closer. 30s buff is huge and it allows to forget about maintaining it and fully focus on combat.

Is the critted shards more damage than Dswing, Crystal blast, medium, executioner?

Burst - no, what you said will do more burst for sure. But you need to do setup to get all that burst damage, while shards is just, well, spammable. Very boosted by crit multi in this build, but spammable.

But thing is, for squishies, this DPS is enough to put them down in 2-3s, and for tougher players, this DPS is much harder to outheal, because once you survive burst and follow up it's basically it, but there the pressure just don't stop - it burns through resources when they heal, it's hard to outrange it either with dash-in skill and ranged spammable (that follows streak, for example).

Luede

if u have problems to be competitive with ur S Tier NB u should either learn how to play this game, or delete ur char.

baselesschart

Luede wrote: »

if u have problems to be competitive with ur S Tier NB u should either learn how to play this game, or delete ur char.

Nightblade is extremely devastating in the hands of a really good player. It does however have a significant learning curve compared to other classes so your argument is a little easier said than done.

EmperorIl

Beardimus wrote: »

EmperorIl wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

It is impossible to tell if the person has detection effect on them.
Right now, it feels like the person on other side is just cheating, because he follows you in invisibility without any visual indicators on his side.

It needs at least some visual indicator.
Or removed, because it is unfair anyway.

Disagre.

It's the counter. And funny watching the panicked running squaters

What class do you main? I am sure any of us can pick apart all the overpowered things....

I'm sure you can @EmperorIl but this isn't a personal attack or anything to do with what class I play or what other skills are strong.

The debate is about detection pots, and I think they working as intended. They are a counter and take up a slot of something else so for Mag that's Tri stat or even spell power. Pro and Con.

What's the counter to your sorc shields? Oblivion damage (tough to type without a straight face)?

And I feel you were baiting with the "And funny watching the panicked running squaters" so yea it was kinda personal for those who play NB, don't worry, I did not report you. My point here is few are asking for it to be removed, we just asked for an indicator that someone can see you. You are negating our class defining ability, one which we require to survive unless you go brawler build.

I asked what you main because I am sure whatever it is I can ask you how you would feel if your build's defining ability were able to be negated every 47 seconds for 15 seconds how you would feel about it.

And you can make detect pots that restore magicka as well. You can also slot what? 8 different items? I always have detect pots in one of them btw. Just because I am a NB doesn't mean I don't get killed by them too.

EmperorIl

baselesschart wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

if u have problems to be competitive with ur S Tier NB u should either learn how to play this game, or delete ur char.

Nightblade is extremely devastating in the hands of a really good player. It does however have a significant learning curve compared to other classes so your argument is a little easier said than done.

Agreed. Extremely high skill ceiling. I would really like to see people who think otherwise roll one and go out and try to compete. Against unskilled, squishy players it is extremely easy, anything else and you need to know what you are doing.

EmperorIl

BlackArgonian wrote: »

I been saying for years that cloak and streak are the reasons the pvp will always remain something that favors class and not skill, but i main a Necro these days so I just do BGs for 7k AP at this point.

Necro huh? You mean the class that is rocking harmony, tombstones, vicious death, and dark convergence and bombing entire groups of people out in Cyrodiil? You see, we want to talk about "overpowered" abilities, but no one wants to admit literally every class/build has at least one.

Tommy_The_Gun

baselesschart wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

if u have problems to be competitive with ur S Tier NB u should either learn how to play this game, or delete ur char.

Nightblade is extremely devastating in the hands of a really good player. It does however have a significant learning curve compared to other classes so your argument is a little easier said than done.

Ye, NB is a Veryyyy situational class. Sometimes you can do well, but "on average" - most of your opponents know what they are doing & how to counter NB biggest advantage (invisibility). Flare, Magelight, Expert Hunter or detect potions, or - just a direct damage AOE. Most of those things (like flare) nowadays you slot anyway for the passive buff or as a part of your offensive toolkit (direct damage AOE).

On a NB you need to rely not just on cloak, but primally on other stuff. You need to master Shades & teleport - which is probably the biggest learning curve amongst all classes in ESO. It is not like on Sorc, where you get ultimate mobility tool (Streak), combined with best sustain (Dark Deal), so you can streak 3 times & laugh. All you have to learn is just how to manage your recourse - which is quite easy.

Personally, I think that if Devs would add more markers to Shadow Image, so you would have big AOE marker on the ground (the range you can teleport), or maybe an arrow around your character, pointing to your shadow, with meters how far your shade is - NB would have way better learning curve.

As for the topic of this thread: All reveal skills have some kind of indication (red eye or aoe in case of flare). Potions not having indication are simply put - inconsistent. Some people here mentioned that it used to have a "red eye" icon, but I am not sure. I don't remember it ever having it (although I might be wrong). Also, the real reason why people use detect potions instead of other skills that do detect, is the fact that you can use detect potions & still remain invisible yourself.

It is a residue from times where all detection skills acted like that. ZOS figured out that it should not work like that (you either detect others, or you hide, make up your mind !). Detection Potions however remained unchanged, since ZOS was balancing skills, not potions. As a result, Detect potions are inconsistent with newer ruleset ZOS established.

Zabagad

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Some people here mentioned that it used to have a "red eye" icon, but I am not sure. I don't remember it ever having it (although I might be wrong).

This is a screenshot from a vid made in June 2020:

As you can see I used my spellpower/detection/magicka pot and I have no other detection skill active...

Edit: I found another one from Oct. 2020 and in Feb. 2021 I have vids where the red eye was not longer there.

ZOS_Volpe

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

TinyLittleTickles

Ganking people should have risks and a level of uncertainty involved.
Those pots are really expensive to use and the buff has a cool down time of 30 seconds or so?
Yes it absolutely makes me giggle when I see the NB panicking. I am sure they enjoy killing people inside a gcd or two just as much

KilianDermoth

divnyi wrote: »

It is impossible to tell if the person has detection effect on them.
Right now, it feels like the person on other side is just cheating, because he follows you in invisibility without any visual indicators on his side.

It needs at least some visual indicator.
Or removed, because it is unfair anyway.

Let me correct your post:

It is impossible to tell if the person has cloak effect on them (without counters like detect potions).
Right now, it feels like the person on the other side is just cheating, because he follows you cloaked without any visual indicators on your side.

It needs at least some visual indicator.
Or (cloak) removed, because it is unfair anyway.

Now it looks 100 % correct to me!

But the irony, a night blade is complaining about non visual stuff while he uses non visual stuff to gain an unfair advantage and even calls a counter to that cheating. It is ridicouls. Its like a cheater who whines about anti cheating.

Always when a night blade defends his cheat skill he brings up detect potions which won't work without heavy investment (cool down, gold) just to counter one broken skill of a single class and now night blades even start to complain about this.

What you basically want is god mod.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

Hotdog_23

NB wants to hide and not be detected, upset something can detect them and they not know it but at the same time they want to hide from another player and not be detected. The irony is strong.

Don’t see the problem with detect pots and honestly thing the red eye should be seen only the player using the skill. If a NB wants to hide, then the other player should be able to hide that they are looking for them or able to see them. To me it would make better counter play.

Stay safe and Happy New Year!!!

Luede

baselesschart wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

if u have problems to be competitive with ur S Tier NB u should either learn how to play this game, or delete ur char.

Nightblade is extremely devastating in the hands of a really good player. It does however have a significant learning curve compared to other classes so your argument is a little easier said than done.

yeah thats true, its not an easy class, but if u have problems with nb its up to the player to improve, not a balaincing problem.

Beardimus

EmperorIl wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

EmperorIl wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

It is impossible to tell if the person has detection effect on them.
Right now, it feels like the person on other side is just cheating, because he follows you in invisibility without any visual indicators on his side.

It needs at least some visual indicator.
Or removed, because it is unfair anyway.

Disagre.

It's the counter. And funny watching the panicked running squaters

What class do you main? I am sure any of us can pick apart all the overpowered things....

I'm sure you can @EmperorIl but this isn't a personal attack or anything to do with what class I play or what other skills are strong.

The debate is about detection pots, and I think they working as intended. They are a counter and take up a slot of something else so for Mag that's Tri stat or even spell power. Pro and Con.

What's the counter to your sorc shields? Oblivion damage (tough to type without a straight face)?

And I feel you were baiting with the "And funny watching the panicked running squaters" so yea it was kinda personal for those who play NB, don't worry, I did not report you. My point here is few are asking for it to be removed, we just asked for an indicator that someone can see you. You are negating our class defining ability, one which we require to survive unless you go brawler build.

I asked what you main because I am sure whatever it is I can ask you how you would feel if your build's defining ability were able to be negated every 47 seconds for 15 seconds how you would feel about it.

And you can make detect pots that restore magicka as well. You can also slot what? 8 different items? I always have detect pots in one of them btw. Just because I am a NB doesn't mean I don't get killed by them too.

What do Sorc wards have to do with any of this? Oh sorry you had a little dig and did make it personal, that's directly baiting / attacking me which has nothing to do with this thread.

My comment on watching the squatted players scatter was not direct against anyone, or even nightblades. It's about those crouched in general, when you know there is an attack coming and they all say and you pop a potion and reveal them all.

I'm not baiting, I'm describing the exact purpose of the potion in the game and it's comedic output.

Are you saying you take no glee from a successful gank?

Back to the point. Yes you can slot multiple pots but you are giving up a cooldown on one that serves NO other purpose i.e. (as I said before) losing Tri Stat & Spell Power (i.e. damage to attack the player you have now revealed)

What I run or don't run has no bearing on this thread.
What I personally play or the strengths or weaknesses of that toon type are irrelevant unless you are trying to bait or attack me personally..

My point stands, the pots work exactly as they should. If the person knew it would defy the point, they are only revealed to the pot user NOT all and take away a slot for something else..

Working as intended. No need to forum gank people who disagree with you..

EmperorIl

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

NB wants to hide and not be detected, upset something can detect them and they not know it but at the same time they want to hide from another player and not be detected. The irony is strong.

Don’t see the problem with detect pots and honestly thing the red eye should be seen only the player using the skill. If a NB wants to hide, then the other player should be able to hide that they are looking for them or able to see them. To me it would make better counter play.

Stay safe and Happy New Year!!!

The chief complaint here is not that we can be detected at all, it is that there are times when we have zero indication our stealth is not working. We are the masters of hiding.....surely a master of hiding would know when he is not really hidden.

EmperorIl

Beardimus wrote: »

EmperorIl wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

EmperorIl wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

It is impossible to tell if the person has detection effect on them.
Right now, it feels like the person on other side is just cheating, because he follows you in invisibility without any visual indicators on his side.

It needs at least some visual indicator.
Or removed, because it is unfair anyway.

Disagre.

It's the counter. And funny watching the panicked running squaters

What class do you main? I am sure any of us can pick apart all the overpowered things....

I'm sure you can @EmperorIl but this isn't a personal attack or anything to do with what class I play or what other skills are strong.

The debate is about detection pots, and I think they working as intended. They are a counter and take up a slot of something else so for Mag that's Tri stat or even spell power. Pro and Con.

What's the counter to your sorc shields? Oblivion damage (tough to type without a straight face)?

And I feel you were baiting with the "And funny watching the panicked running squaters" so yea it was kinda personal for those who play NB, don't worry, I did not report you. My point here is few are asking for it to be removed, we just asked for an indicator that someone can see you. You are negating our class defining ability, one which we require to survive unless you go brawler build.

I asked what you main because I am sure whatever it is I can ask you how you would feel if your build's defining ability were able to be negated every 47 seconds for 15 seconds how you would feel about it.

And you can make detect pots that restore magicka as well. You can also slot what? 8 different items? I always have detect pots in one of them btw. Just because I am a NB doesn't mean I don't get killed by them too.

What do Sorc wards have to do with any of this? Oh sorry you had a little dig and did make it personal, that's directly baiting / attacking me which has nothing to do with this thread.

My comment on watching the squatted players scatter was not direct against anyone, or even nightblades. It's about those crouched in general, when you know there is an attack coming and they all say and you pop a potion and reveal them all.

I'm not baiting, I'm describing the exact purpose of the potion in the game and it's comedic output.

Are you saying you take no glee from a successful gank?

Back to the point. Yes you can slot multiple pots but you are giving up a cooldown on one that serves NO other purpose i.e. (as I said before) losing Tri Stat & Spell Power (i.e. damage to attack the player you have now revealed)

What I run or don't run has no bearing on this thread.
What I personally play or the strengths or weaknesses of that toon type are irrelevant unless you are trying to bait or attack me personally..

My point stands, the pots work exactly as they should. If the person knew it would defy the point, they are only revealed to the pot user NOT all and take away a slot for something else..

Working as intended. No need to forum gank people who disagree with you..

I was trying to put you in the position of a cloak blade by asking you take your main's class defining ability and give everyone else the ability to 100% negate it for 15 seconds out of every 47. This is what we deal with, and it is harder and harder to play this style because of it. People can die a million cheesy ways to overpowered class abilities like jabs/streak, but omg don't kill me from stealth or escape because of stealth or I will really be mad! Streak away all you want, but don't you dare cloak!

And no I take no "glee" from a successful gank. I may get some satisfaction if the gank was difficult to get the kill and escape, which is very challenging at times. This might be the issue, everyone who dies to a NB gank takes it personal. I am just another soldier in the war dude. While there may be some NB trolls that's not me. I am more of a skirmisher who will burn all your crap and harass you while you're trying to siege. It's not for the lolololol, it's to win the battle. It is getting harder and harder to do. I am sure you have no problem with it when someone on your side is doing it for you.

In the end this is the same battle in every MMO, no one wants to be killed by a stealther. You can die a million other ways to a million other overpowered abilities, but the main issue will always be from stealth. It reminds me of the whole drone strikes thing....we can blow up 100 people with a B-52 and it's war.....kill one dude with a drone strike and protesters line up. Stealthers are the drone strike in case that wasn't clear. The B-52 can be any number of ridiculous things out in Cyrodiil.