Detection potions - action needed

KilianDermoth

Overpowered Streak?

You complain about a potion which negates cloak, there is one that negates (the CC of) streak, did you know...?

Streak can basically be negated (the CC and the escape) by skills or even sets and CP too.

You dont always have the time to look if someone is CC immune all the time mid fight. While cloaked you can even be afk for seconds.

Streak is on cooldown, several seconds immunity, cloak doesn't really seem to be, even there should one but somehow night blades seem to ignore it.

Streak as escape is negated by charge skills, night blade have one even build into their class, did you know?

Streak has (exponentially?) increasing costs, cloak doesn't, charge skills neither. So after 3 - 5 streaks you are out of Magicka and dead!

Streak has a lower range than charge skills, so easy to follow up. A speedbuild even dont need a c harge skill at all, because he will be able to keep up and kill the Sorc after he ran out of Magicka.

Streak is delayed.

To sum it up: Yeah streak has plenty of hard counters, can make you run out of resources does mediocre (non noticeable damage) at best. Really overpowered.

Cloak makes you completely invulnerable if not detected. Gives you advantage of first strike. Has no really hard counter (on range), except expensive detect potions with potion cool down glyphs. Allows you even to stack several damage skills and kill someone before he even knows whats going on. Yeah, it totally doesn't sound overpowered, broken or like a cheat. I hope they don't even add bonuses to attacks from Stealth, oh wait, they did!?

Lets nerf the only realiable working hard counter (mages light sometimes doesnt do the job), so nightblades who are in my opinion one of the biggest issues in pvp and who let to something like tank meta or even destroyed pvp for many players at all (just look at < CP battlegrounds how newbies get farmed by night blades without a possibility to counter it) have theire god mod they desire all the time. Maybe we can this way decrease the PVP population to 0, at least 0 non nightblades so that maybe those few nightblades can all sit cloaked somehwere in the shadow and wait, and wait, and wait...

So I guess the game is balanced and great if night blades can sit cloaked all day wait for someone coming along and just look at them for a insta kill while being afk? I guess the population of imperial city would get even greater and encourage newer players to play this really funny pvp experience at all...

Stealth in ESO like it is now is a cheat, nothing else!

Stealth should be completely reworked.

First remove god mode (you just can shoot through anyone who is stealthed, this shouldn't be possible). This way stealth is not just stealth it is also invulnerability.

Second, make them somehow visible! Make it possible for human people to detect stealthed people, make it hard to do so, but make it possible.

I liked the stealth mechanic in the first Jedi Knight. It was counterable by players skill but worked great if used against a uncausions or non skilled player.

In that game the person became totally invisible like in ESO, but there were 3 tiny particles visible, really tiny, most people even didn't knew that they existed so that you could learn to see them even though it was hard to do so always and often, especially mid fight. But you at least could! => player skill involved, not just cheese (what the whole nightblade class seems to be about).

Also you could damage them if you have shot in the right direction (hard to do so, but possible) so it was just stealth not God mode like in ESO. Because of autotargeting in eso, you could make this only work if you shoot in the right direction +- 1° - 3° (right angle has to be found so that it is possible to do but cant be done by randomnly shooting in any direction).

Further there was a visibility skill, you couldn't have it up all the time and spam it (resources) but if you somehow were aware of someone invisible (sounds of footsteps, those 3 tiny particles or just guesswork) you could hard counter it. You have seen the auras of anyone invisible for a short time, no matter how far someone was and attack them. Btw. it would really well fit into Elder Scrolls (because it worked as the detect live effect in Oblivion) and it is how Mage Light should work (not that tiny radius and reliably working, not possible to cloak away close to you while mage light is active).

Rework stealth to this and everything would be fine but stealth right now is just broken and a cheat.

Even disabling stealth in PVP completely would benefit the whole pvp experience, for anyone except those who have to realy on a broken cheat skill to be able to kill someone at all.

EmperorIl

KilianDermoth wrote: »

Overpowered Streak?

You complain about a potion which negates cloak, there is one that negates (the CC of) streak, did you know...?

Streak can basically be negated (the CC and the escape) by skills or even sets and CP too.

You dont always have the time to look if someone is CC immune all the time mid fight. While cloaked you can even be afk for seconds.

Streak is on cooldown, several seconds immunity, cloak doesn't really seem to be, even there should one but somehow night blades seem to ignore it.

Streak as escape is negated by charge skills, night blade have one even build into their class, did you know?

Streak has (exponentially?) increasing costs, cloak doesn't, charge skills neither. So after 3 - 5 streaks you are out of Magicka and dead!

Streak has a lower range than charge skills, so easy to follow up. A speedbuild even dont need a c harge skill at all, because he will be able to keep up and kill the Sorc after he ran out of Magicka.

Streak is delayed.

To sum it up: Yeah streak has plenty of hard counters, can make you run out of resources does mediocre (non noticeable damage) at best. Really overpowered.

Cloak makes you completely invulnerable if not detected. Gives you advantage of first strike. Has no really hard counter (on range), except expensive detect potions with potion cool down glyphs. Allows you even to stack several damage skills and kill someone before he even knows whats going on. Yeah, it totally doesn't sound overpowered, broken or like a cheat. I hope they don't even add bonuses to attacks from Stealth, oh wait, they did!?

Lets nerf the only realiable working hard counter (mages light sometimes doesnt do the job), so nightblades who are in my opinion one of the biggest issues in pvp and who let to something like tank meta or even destroyed pvp for many players at all (just look at < CP battlegrounds how newbies get farmed by night blades without a possibility to counter it) have theire god mod they desire all the time. Maybe we can this way decrease the PVP population to 0, at least 0 non nightblades so that maybe those few nightblades can all sit cloaked somehwere in the shadow and wait, and wait, and wait...

So I guess the game is balanced and great if night blades can sit cloaked all day wait for someone coming along and just look at them for a insta kill while being afk? I guess the population of imperial city would get even greater and encourage newer players to play this really funny pvp experience at all...

Stealth in ESO like it is now is a cheat, nothing else!

Stealth should be completely reworked.

First remove god mode (you just can shoot through anyone who is stealthed, this shouldn't be possible). This way stealth is not just stealth it is also invulnerability.

Second, make them somehow visible! Make it possible for human people to detect stealthed people, make it hard to do so, but make it possible.

I liked the stealth mechanic in the first Jedi Knight. It was counterable by players skill but worked great if used against a uncausions or non skilled player.

In that game the person became totally invisible like in ESO, but there were 3 tiny particles visible, really tiny, most people even didn't knew that they existed so that you could learn to see them even though it was hard to do so always and often, especially mid fight. But you at least could! => player skill involved, not just cheese (what the whole nightblade class seems to be about).

Also you could damage them if you have shot in the right direction (hard to do so, but possible) so it was just stealth not God mode like in ESO. Because of autotargeting in eso, you could make this only work if you shoot in the right direction +- 1° - 3° (right angle has to be found so that it is possible to do but cant be done by randomnly shooting in any direction).

Further there was a visibility skill, you couldn't have it up all the time and spam it (resources) but if you somehow were aware of someone invisible (sounds of footsteps, those 3 tiny particles or just guesswork) you could hard counter it. You have seen the auras of anyone invisible for a short time, no matter how far someone was and attack them. Btw. it would really well fit into Elder Scrolls (because it worked as the detect live effect in Oblivion) and it is how Mage Light should work (not that tiny radius and reliably working, not possible to cloak away close to you while mage light is active).

Rework stealth to this and everything would be fine but stealth right now is just broken and a cheat.

Even disabling stealth in PVP completely would benefit the whole pvp experience, for anyone except those who have to realy on a broken cheat skill to be able to kill someone at all.

Obviously written by someone who has never played NB before....not even going to bother. Maybe once you all play a NB and see how challenging it is and how often you die maybe you will change your tune. I have a max of every class and play them all in Cyro every camp to at least T3 rewards for transmute, some more than others. Every one of them gets killed by every other class in cheeze-mode ways , including NBs.....

No stealth is not a cheat, not it is not broken. You just have not figured out how to deal with it yet.

baselesschart

EmperorIl wrote: »

No stealth is not a cheat, not it is not broken. You just have not figured out how to deal with it yet.

I second this. Stealth is not broken in the slightest, and that is apparent to anyone who has played nightblade, people just get frustrated when other people cloak at will.

divnyi

KilianDermoth wrote: »

It is impossible to tell if the person has cloak effect on them (without counters like detect potions).
Right now, it feels like the person on the other side is just cheating, because he follows you cloaked without any visual indicators on your side.

Can tell that opponent cloaks if I see him. Can't say the same about detection pots.

KilianDermoth

I know how to deal with it. Even got hate whisper by night blades. But broken is broken. Night blades might keep denying it because they like their cheat skill. There will be always such players who will defend even the most broken stuff because they fear they couldn't win anymore if it gets fixed.

MEBengalsFan2001

divnyi wrote: »

It is impossible to tell if the person has detection effect on them.
Right now, it feels like the person on other side is just cheating, because he follows you in invisibility without any visual indicators on his side.

It needs at least some visual indicator.
Or removed, because it is unfair anyway.

No it is not unfair, detect pot are to help people see those around them that are invisible or in stealth and you should not know if someone is using a detect pot just like a player who isn't using a detect pot won't see the invisible or stealth player.

If some type of indicator is added to players using detect pot the same should be done to players that are in stealth or invisible.

Kwoung

Just curious, didn't they recently change stealth detection so that instead of revealing the stealther to everyone when you use any sort of detection, only the person using detection can see them now? I seem to remember that in the patch notes when the buffed stealth not that long ago. Seems to me being chased by one player is a huge improvement over being chased by an entire group already, never mind not being pulled out by AE's. I mean seriously, if someone is still struggling with stealth at this point, IDK what to say.

divnyi

Kwoung wrote: »

Seems to me being chased by one player is a huge improvement over being chased by an entire group already, never mind not being pulled out by AE's

That one player can nuke you with AoEs constantly, also all his allies know where you are and can AoE or reveal.
Idk where you took the idea that AoEs don't uncloak, they do.

Kwoung

divnyi wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Seems to me being chased by one player is a huge improvement over being chased by an entire group already, never mind not being pulled out by AE's

That one player can nuke you with AoEs constantly, also all his allies know where you are and can AoE or reveal.
Idk where you took the idea that AoEs don't uncloak, they do.

Oh maybe here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/584299/pc-mac-patch-notes-v7-1-5-waking-flame-update-31#latest

• This means that the only player abilities that should remove stealth are Area of Effect Direct Damage, Stuns, Fears, or Immobilizes, as well as Reveals. Attacks made with Detection potions active may still damage the target but will not strip their Stealth or Invisibility.

From my trying it, I can walk right through ground AOE's no problem. Sure if someone is attacking you directly you get hit, as with any spell.

divnyi

Kwoung wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Seems to me being chased by one player is a huge improvement over being chased by an entire group already, never mind not being pulled out by AE's

That one player can nuke you with AoEs constantly, also all his allies know where you are and can AoE or reveal.
Idk where you took the idea that AoEs don't uncloak, they do.

Oh maybe here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/584299/pc-mac-patch-notes-v7-1-5-waking-flame-update-31#latest

• This means that the only player abilities that should remove stealth are Area of Effect Direct Damage, Stuns, Fears, or Immobilizes, as well as Reveals. Attacks made with Detection potions active may still damage the target but will not strip their Stealth or Invisibility.

From my trying it, I can walk right through ground AOE's no problem. Sure if someone is attacking you directly you get hit, as with any spell.

Yeah that one they did. But lets be honest here, sorc hurricane uncloaking was never balanced.

auz

divnyi wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

It's the counter.

Ok, so why do we have a potion effect that counters one class specifically, but no other effect that counter best moves from other classes .

I agree. Having a consumable that counters only on class is ridiculous.

I am fine with nbs getting a tell when someone uses a detect pot... if I get a tell when I am about to attacked from stealth. Fair is fair. And it is unfair that there is no indication given that a cloaked nightblade is about to attack.

Kwoung

auz wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

It's the counter.

Ok, so why do we have a potion effect that counters one class specifically, but no other effect that counter best moves from other classes .

I agree. Having a consumable that counters only on class is ridiculous.

I am fine with nbs getting a tell when someone uses a detect pot... if I get a tell when I am about to attacked from stealth. Fair is fair. And it is unfair that there is no indication given that a cloaked nightblade is about to attack.

Well actually, I have detected a pretty decent number of folks with detect pots that weren't NB's. You might be surprised how many folks try to invis away, its not a huge number, but happens often enough to be able to say they aren't just for popping NB's out of stealth.

I definitely agree with the rest, fair is fair and what's the fun in watching a NB running away (I see that enough already), I much prefer acting like I don't see them then.. surprise!

Master_Kas

Cmon don't ruin the thrill of running behind enemy lines and knowing there's a handful of nightblades lurking with detectpots ready to ruin your day. x)