How is it possible to deal such low(<10k) dps? (Solved, #1 updated)

ixthUA · December 2021

Maybe a guide should be written about rotations?
Like skills with more base damage dealing more damage than skills with less base damage? I often see people using spamables instead of DoTs in vet dungeons.
And about using skills with short duration before skills with long duration..

Gelmir · December 2021

thorwyn wrote: »

I think there is a common misconception that keeps popping up over and over again in these discussions. The misconception is the "I'm not chasing the meta, I am playing to have fun" narrative, which insinuates that everyone out there who is in some shape or form trying to optimize, practice and invest time and effort is not having fun. That is wrong! Playing a complex game like ESO is like playing the piano. Some people enjoy hitting random keys and listening to the sound they produce, maybe even a small melody. Other people keep practicing and trying to get better at controlling the instrument. They are trying to find out how far they can go, how good they can get and they enjoy the progress and the results. The path might be boring, repetitive and frustrating, but the result is the reward. This is a different approach to having fun, but it is fun nonetheless.

Sadly, you can not put both types of piano players in a band and expect both sides to be happy about the result.

Oh man... Beautifully described. Thank you!

Troodon80 · December 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

I tank, so I interpreted it in the light that a tank gets immediate feedback when they screw up: the boss kills them or a groupmate. Figuring out the mechanic might take some trial and error, but the results of error are generally quite clear and immediate. That tank knows what they need to do to improve.

I also main a tank and interpreted it quite differently. In terms of parses, tank DPS doesn't matter... but uptimes do. If you're using Powerful Assault but never use an Assault skill, it's a wasted set, for example, and whether your uptimes are good enough to warrent using one set over another. Uptimes are not necessarily immediately evident in the same way that DPS isn't, but the same thing holds true.

or compare this or that parse

This is what effectively amounts to a tank parse, and they are compared constantly from low level raiding all the way up to the highest level of end game. Not so much with PUGs, but you can tell the good supports from those who are only doing the bare minimum by the total group DPS, even if the DPS is otherwise low, and supports, even in PUG runs, also get blamed for not providing buffs that some people think they should be. But agree overall, like I said: unless a DD is using an addon or has access to Logs, they probably won't even know they are underperforming. Nor will they probably care much as long as stuff is dying. It's the same for supports when it comes to buffs and debuffs. The best ways to track this are via addons or Logs.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

This is exactly what I mean. Thanks for this post.

That's fair and reasonable. Mostly agree with it in that case.

Troodon80 · December 2021

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

The presence of Siroria gear is compelling evidence that this wasn't his first trial.

I'm not commenting on the gear choice or whether they've done content before. I've also seen people using Medusa restoration staff as a DD. Or Mother's Sorrow with Medusa body. Or various combinations of the meta sets but with 4-6 pieces of heavy armour. Sometimes, they even go full Medusa, seeminly not realising that sets do not double up and extend beyond five pieces.

Dorkener · December 2021

Well, you can copy paste a build off the internet, farm/gold out the gear... but unless you understand the mechanical fundamentals (how and why stuff works) and practice the execution, you're gonna be bad. This is apparently too much effort for many. /shrug

drsalvation · December 2021

when I was a tank, I thought dealing 10k dmg was awesome.
When I switched to DPS, I had double the amount, 20kdps.

Normally, games that are actually well designed have a low threshold of difference between classes (in arbitrary numbers, a tank could have 10k def, 5k attk, and a DPS would have 10k attk, and 5k def).

In this game, however, that's not the case.
Tanks sacrifice so much damage for defenses that don't do much of a difference, but DPS would have up to 5 times MORE damage than a tank.
And I've seen people shooting for 90k dps.

Optimizing builds is good in any game, but in this game, to optimize your role you need to play in a very, highly, extremely specific style (and to be fair, there's absolutely no reasons to optimize your tank build to the core, you'll still get one-shotted if you don't do mechanics, and best you can do in PvP is just not die, but you don't get points for that, so it's worthless).

So players who want to play in a specific way, even if they optimize their build for that playstyle, it can be very useless. Only meta builds matter here, and nobody has time and patience to watch those 30 minute long youtube videos explaining the build, and then the next weeks grinding for it.

So either you make a build you can have fun with, or you stick to meta builds with styles that aren't really enjoyable (and remember that every patch, something on the meta will shift, making that build deprecated... but I mean, they have to keep the grinding going)

Bobby_V_Rockit · December 2021

I got 9608.6 DPS over 5m 13s on the 3mill target skeleton by putting a rubber band on the heavy attack button and refreshing boundless storm. Using Overwhelming Surge, Thunder Caller and Stormfist, no food/drink/potions. I’m not sure if I’m pleased or disappointed lol

Succuby · December 2021

About Alcast - a lot of groups that who can easely path content try to burst it so -> fail

A lot of people get tons of toxicity, because "others play wrong"

Staff of plague doctor rise in prize - hahaha, no real problem with that ... but it was tons of better options

A lot of time was needed to drop that players toxicity - "that they are the best, because they play that builds".

Even now, some groups have same problems.

But normal groups have less problems, just avoiding that toxic people.

If i am HA player i know that man who do not care - will do his job, if some one say me i play wrong - 100% toxic and with him will not pass even close.

Thats why love HA community. And it is really good that we have a little smaller DPS, but i hope it will not be problem on trifectas. 25% difference from top DDs are quite big numbers. HM may be will not be a problem but speed runs can be. And i do not want regear to DK in Zen

because it is more like idealogy, that group must path with out LA rotation. ( May be just a little LA rotation, but not more than 40% of rotation

)) )

Harvokaan · December 2021

I see that main contributor for such low dps is not gear, wrong skills or cps but just the low action per minute. Not sure why ppl use one skill per each 4-5s but apparently this is a thing.
What could help is in game tutorial, like the one you can find in FFXIV. They have series of mini quests where you spawn in arena and npc teaches you basic stuff about taunt, positioning, dps, etc. You got some good gear for newbie each time when you finish such quest and after ending the whole quest chain you even get the ring that increase your xp gain by like 30% till level 30 or 35 (something like that).
Game is in dire need of better in game tutorial, maybe some role certification for vet queue (for all roles, that includes DPS too as fake DD is a thing too). Currently if someone want to be good at any role, he/she is forced to look outside at yt tutorials. It is normal that if you want to be the best, you need to look outside but in the current situation, you are forced to do so even if you want to perform the basics of the role requirements.
Hope that ZOS at some point will acknowledge that. Low cost solutions like text tooltips in random places are not enough unfortunately.

Xebov · December 2021

Harvokaan wrote: »

Game is in dire need of better in game tutorial, maybe some role certification for vet queue (for all roles, that includes DPS too as fake DD is a thing too). Currently if someone want to be good at any role, he/she is forced to look outside at yt tutorials. It is normal that if you want to be the best, you need to look outside but in the current situation, you are forced to do so even if you want to perform the basics of the role requirements.

The game teaches how to bash and why, still you see ppl not bashing at all. In Boss fights NPCs tell you what you have to do. In both cases you see players not doing it. They dont process the information available and act with it. No matter how much information you add, players have to be willing to folelr it and many are not.

Elsonso · December 2021

.

Xebov wrote: »

Harvokaan wrote: »

Game is in dire need of better in game tutorial, maybe some role certification for vet queue (for all roles, that includes DPS too as fake DD is a thing too). Currently if someone want to be good at any role, he/she is forced to look outside at yt tutorials. It is normal that if you want to be the best, you need to look outside but in the current situation, you are forced to do so even if you want to perform the basics of the role requirements.

The game teaches how to bash and why, still you see ppl not bashing at all. In Boss fights NPCs tell you what you have to do. In both cases you see players not doing it. They dont process the information available and act with it. No matter how much information you add, players have to be willing to folelr it and many are not.

The tutorial teaches how to bash, and why you would want to. People quickly learn when they don't really need to do it, which seems to be a lot when outside of Vet situations. That can lead to over confidence.

That includes bash, block, interrupt, and even dodge.

VaranisArano · December 2021

Elsonso wrote: »

.

Xebov wrote: »

Harvokaan wrote: »

Game is in dire need of better in game tutorial, maybe some role certification for vet queue (for all roles, that includes DPS too as fake DD is a thing too). Currently if someone want to be good at any role, he/she is forced to look outside at yt tutorials. It is normal that if you want to be the best, you need to look outside but in the current situation, you are forced to do so even if you want to perform the basics of the role requirements.

The game teaches how to bash and why, still you see ppl not bashing at all. In Boss fights NPCs tell you what you have to do. In both cases you see players not doing it. They dont process the information available and act with it. No matter how much information you add, players have to be willing to folelr it and many are not.

The tutorial teaches how to bash, and why you would want to. People quickly learn when they don't really need to do it, which seems to be a lot when outside of Vet situations. That can lead to over confidence.

That includes bash, block, interrupt, and even dodge.

Yep. When I was learning to tank, my friends just wanted to run normal dungeons. Now, being a fairly good tank, I quickly reached the point where I could survive whatever normal dungeons threw at me without much effort.

Then we moved to Vet and suddenly mechanics that I'd learned were ignorable on normal started killing me. I basically re-learned to tank on Veteran.

We'll also not talk about how long it took me as a leveling player to figure out that Harvesters had mechanics and they get easier to fight if you follow them.

Overland questing and even most normal dungeons don't do a great job of teaching "follow mechanics or die." That's a large part of why players wind up in Vet content looking completely unable to do basic skills like spot an interrupt prompt and do it - this may be one of the first times the game is teaching them "follow the mechanic or die."

ESO ain't Dark Souls, I guess is what I'm saying. You can go a long way in ESO without ever having to master the basics of combat.

Kiralyn2000 · December 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

ESO ain't Dark Souls,

And thank Azura for that. I've no desire to play any of the "Souls-likes".

Troodon80 · December 2021

Harvokaan wrote: »

I see that main contributor for such low dps is not gear, wrong skills or cps but just the low action per minute. Not sure why ppl use one skill per each 4-5s but apparently this is a thing.

This is something ZOS has said, but I would personally like to make a clarifying point regarding Actions Per Minute (APM). APM, according to ZOS, is also the use of things like movement keys, jumping, roll dodge, block, and various other actions. So if I WASD jiggle around on the spot and get high APM but cast no skills, the point is irrelevant about APM. I would like to submit the differentiation between APM and CPM (Casts Per Minute). CPM is what addons like Combat Metrics use to display details on the Info panel, and also what is displayed by ESO Logs. The very notion of APM in ESO is absurd by ZOS's own definition.

But then we come to how CPM affects DPS. While generally higher CPM will increase DPS, that also depends on what you're casting. If you recast Boneyard on necro while your previous one is active, this is a wasted global cooldown that you could have used Force Pulse, Unstable Wall for explosion damage, Siphon, etc. If you've completely messed up a rotation but still maintain high CPM, that CPM is also almost meaningless. A prime example is Necro using Blastbones. This should be every third cast; cast, cast, Blastbones, cast, cast, Blastbones, etc. If you make this every fourth cast then you'll be underperforming versus someone who is using it every third cast, despite having equal if not higher CPM. As a further example of this, if I get the same CPM in total but use Blastbones and Force Pulse instead of just using Force Pulse, whether that's 10 CPM or 120+ CPM for comparison, certain skills like Blastbones will add significant DPS. Same thing with Crystal Fragments versus Force Pulse versus Elemental Weapon on Sorcerer. Same thing with using your Bow proc on Nightblade.

Aside from that, there are classes which do naturally lower CPM than others depending on their rotation. For example, Templar using Japs/Sweeps, as this skill lasts 1.2s versus the 1s global cooldown.

And then... gear. Even relatively low CPM can get higher DPS depending on the gear. If you take two people, one using Medusa heavy and Mother's Sorrow weapon and jewellery, and one using Mother's Sorrow light and Medusa weapons and jewellery, the DPS will be higher on the light armour versus the heavy armour assuming CPM (let's say 30-40 CPM on the average PUG) is exactly the same and the same skills are being used.

So, in closing: CPM, not APM in ESO using ZOS's definition, is a significant contributing factor to DPS, but this has to count in the other various factors such as CP, skills, and gear. None of them can be calculated exclusively.

WraithShadow13 · December 2021

I'm in the same camp as a lot of people.

The game just Does. Not. TEACH you how to play. More so, it does nothing to balance the game, so you can GET to those uber high DPS builds and then it does nothing to teach you how to get there. In fact, you have to get add-ons and go to other websites for that kind of thing.

If ANYTHING, it's EASY to get under 10k DPS. Just play as anything that ISN'T one of those high DPS builds. Plenty of tanks can do more than 10k dps but do they? I have plenty of healers that are in the same boat.

Not everyone copy/pastes a build, not everyone plays a set rotation. Should they be punished further because they're not min-maxing or doing the math to get the highest numbers possible?

Hell, my main is a "DPS" (" " because it ain't much) and he's more focused on aoe damage and self-healing based on the damage. There are plenty of ways i can probably boost that damage but then... what's the point? It's an elder scrolls game. I should be able to play how i want and for the fun of it, not by doing math and having to push what button when because some website says i have to use their maxed out rotations.

perfiction · December 2021

^ It's funny how DDs use "play how you want" as an excuse, but when they meet healer/tank sharing the same sentiment in dungeon finder they are the first ones to create 9999th forum thread to complain about fake roles.

Bobby_V_Rockit · December 2021

perfiction wrote: »

^ It's funny how DDs use "play how you want" as an excuse, but when they meet healer/tank sharing the same sentiment in dungeon finder they are the first ones to create 9999th forum thread to complain about fake roles.

Yes and no, the DD role is more aligned with what content is being played, whereas a tank has to hold aggro and take damage so damage dealers don’t and a healer has to heal so no one dies (both an oversimplification). At least damage dealers get to pick weapon or staff, a variety of skills, tonnes of sets, etc.

I just think there is much more build freedom for a DD as opposed to healers and particularly tanks

WildLight · December 2021

perfiction wrote: »

^ It's funny how DDs use "play how you want" as an excuse, but when they meet healer/tank sharing the same sentiment in dungeon finder they are the first ones to create 9999th forum thread to complain about fake roles.

Queuing as a fake tank without even having a decency to bring in taunt and some mob stacking tools is not "playing how you want", it's being a fake tank. Couldn't care less if they have 20k health and run medium armour. Grab stuff and hold it still, as long as you don't die - good enough for any normal dungeon. Same goes for healer, just slap a couple of HoTs and throw them out sometimes - jab away for the rest of the time.

Tanks and healers have specific functions in a group. If they don't fulfill those - they are fake and it has nothing to do with "play how you want" notion.

Edit: I should say it works the same ways for DDs. If you back bar resto staff or s&b, it does nothing to improve your main functionality which is dealing damage. Ultimately it comes down to if you value your personal enjoyment or want to contribute to the team best way possible.

spartaxoxo · December 2021

perfiction wrote: »

^ It's funny how DDs use "play how you want" as an excuse, but when they meet healer/tank sharing the same sentiment in dungeon finder they are the first ones to create 9999th forum thread to complain about fake roles.

They will counter that by claiming that there is no such thing as a fake dd so they don't have any responsibilities to the group other than not being afk.

Elsonso · December 2021

spartaxoxo wrote: »

perfiction wrote: »

^ It's funny how DDs use "play how you want" as an excuse, but when they meet healer/tank sharing the same sentiment in dungeon finder they are the first ones to create 9999th forum thread to complain about fake roles.

They will counter that by claiming that there is no such thing as a fake dd so they don't have any responsibilities to the group other than not being afk.

Probably, but I was in one dungeon with a fake tank and a fake healer that tore through the dungeon like it was an ice fort and they all had flame throwers. I didn't need to be there, and my DPS reflected that. I took the boss loot, thanked them, and went on my way. I was a "fake DD" in that dungeon.

(Edit: I was probably between level 10 and 15 on a new alt, no back bar, basic skills only, so while I could put out boosted DPS due to leveling bonuses, I was doing only single digit percentage of damage when I gave it everything I had...)

NylAR · December 2021

thorwyn wrote: »

I think there is a common misconception that keeps popping up over and over again in these discussions. The misconception is the "I'm not chasing the meta, I am playing to have fun" narrative, which insinuates that everyone out there who is in some shape or form trying to optimize, practice and invest time and effort is not having fun. That is wrong! Playing a complex game like ESO is like playing the piano. Some people enjoy hitting random keys and listening to the sound they produce, maybe even a small melody. Other people keep practicing and trying to get better at controlling the instrument. They are trying to find out how far they can go, how good they can get and they enjoy the progress and the results. The path might be boring, repetitive and frustrating, but the result is the reward. This is a different approach to having fun, but it is fun nonetheless.

Sadly, you can not put both types of piano players in a band and expect both sides to be happy about the result.

Imho if even for s split second you find yourself doing something that's boring ( not frustrating mind you, only straight boring) but decide to call it fun or find an excuse to call it fun is the moment you hit dopamine addiction from that certain activity. Period. Frustrating, difficult, time-consuming are all valid. Boredom is not

Alemtuzumab · December 2021

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ESO ain't Dark Souls,

And thank Azura for that. I've no desire to play any of the "Souls-likes".

Certain content in ESO is much harder than any bosses in Souls series.

All the content in ESO feels less rewarding than Souls series.

It took me 25 attempts to killing Kalamet on NG.
It took us more than 4hrs to challenge the last boss of castle thorn and the best we got was 50%.
It took 12 ppl more than 40 attempts to challenge Twins in vMoL and the best try was 30%.

Cooperation is much harder than any solo content.
In Souls you’re free to choose to do it solo/co-op. 1 more person means 50% more health. You got your helper but the boss also became harder.

In ESO I haven’t yet seen anyone successfully completing a trial solo.

VaranisArano · December 2021

Alemtuzumab wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ESO ain't Dark Souls,

And thank Azura for that. I've no desire to play any of the "Souls-likes".

Certain content in ESO is much harder than any bosses in Souls series.

All the content in ESO feels less rewarding than Souls series.

It took me 25 attempts to killing Kalamet on NG.
It took us more than 4hrs to challenge the last boss of castle thorn and the best we got was 50%.
It took 12 ppl more than 40 attempts to challenge Twins in vMoL and the best try was 30%.

Cooperation is much harder than any solo content.
In Souls you’re free to choose to do it solo/co-op. 1 more person means 50% more health. You got your helper but the boss also became harder.

In ESO I haven’t yet seen anyone successfully completing a trial solo.

Some normal trials can be soloed. Others have boss fights that can be soloed even if the whole thing cannot. Keep in mind that the hardest content intended to be soloed in ESO is Vet Maelstrom and Vateshran Arenas.

Examples: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/399130/is-it-possible-to-do-normal-trials-solo

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/338492/zhajhassa-the-forgotten-has-been-soloed

It's worth noting that the original comparison was how Dark Souls forces players to learn the basics of combat very early or else they are going to die over and over again. In contrast, in ESO its quite possible to breeze through overland content and many normal dungeon groups before a player eventually hits the point of "Oh, I need to improve my gameplay in order to progress!" Many players first hit that wall when they try to do Vet dungeons, and suddenly, the game starts punishing them for missed dodge rolls, failure to interrupt, and not reaching DPS checks.

ixthUA · January 2022

So i did a stamina build, 11.5k dps on a dummy. I used correct sets and traits, but wrong sets of skills, no matter how much i tried i could not break 11500 dps with those skills. On magicka, just by using 2 class aoes and 1 weapon aoe i get 25k dps on a dummy, very hard to mess up.
I searched youtube and there are 124k dps builds for my class, using totally different sets of skills.

Grandchamp1989 · January 2022

ixthUA wrote: »

So i did a stamina build, 11.5k dps on a dummy. I used correct sets and traits, but wrong sets of skills, no matter how much i tried i could not break 11500 dps with those skills. On magicka, just by using 2 class aoes and 1 weapon aoe i get 25k dps on a dummy, very hard to mess up.
I searched youtube and there are 124k dps builds for my class, using totally different sets of skills.

Everyone who plays ESO and are 160cp can break 20k on the 3 million dummy. I mean everyone.

Stamina templar with jabs using the most basic crafted gear like Hunding's Rage with New Moon will be around 20-25k using only jabs with all the aedric spear passives on using weapon power pots on cooldown.

That is from spamming 1 button repeatedly....

Other classes can be harder to pick up, but aslong as Templar remains as they are everyone can break 20k in my opinion.

Bobby_V_Rockit · January 2022

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

ixthUA wrote: »

So i did a stamina build, 11.5k dps on a dummy. I used correct sets and traits, but wrong sets of skills, no matter how much i tried i could not break 11500 dps with those skills. On magicka, just by using 2 class aoes and 1 weapon aoe i get 25k dps on a dummy, very hard to mess up.
I searched youtube and there are 124k dps builds for my class, using totally different sets of skills.

Everyone who plays ESO and are 160cp can break 20k on the 3 million dummy. I mean everyone.

Stamina templar with jabs using the most basic crafted gear like Hunding's Rage with New Moon will be around 20-25k using only jabs with all the aedric spear passives on using weapon power pots on cooldown.

That is from spamming 1 button repeatedly....

Other classes can be harder to pick up, but aslong as Templar remains as they are everyone can break 20k in my opinion.

How?

Grandchamp1989 · January 2022

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

ixthUA wrote: »

So i did a stamina build, 11.5k dps on a dummy. I used correct sets and traits, but wrong sets of skills, no matter how much i tried i could not break 11500 dps with those skills. On magicka, just by using 2 class aoes and 1 weapon aoe i get 25k dps on a dummy, very hard to mess up.
I searched youtube and there are 124k dps builds for my class, using totally different sets of skills.

Everyone who plays ESO and are 160cp can break 20k on the 3 million dummy. I mean everyone.

Stamina templar with jabs using the most basic crafted gear like Hunding's Rage with New Moon will be around 20-25k using only jabs with all the aedric spear passives on using weapon power pots on cooldown.

That is from spamming 1 button repeatedly....

Other classes can be harder to pick up, but aslong as Templar remains as they are everyone can break 20k in my opinion.

How?

Only skill used: Biting Jabs (No ultimate used either)
Dummy: 3 million completely self buffed
Crafted gear + fungal grotto 1 helmet
Full purple and green gear with purple enchants (No golden armor/weapon/enchants, backbar wasn't used at all)

31k on a super bad parse

I'm pretty sure anyone should be able to hit atleast 20k on a templar

Edit: Got another parse not using a single light attack only jabs and heavy attack when I ran dry, using the exact same green and purple setup: 25k

Troodon80 · January 2022

@Grandchamp1989, I'm not disagreeing (quite the opposite), but could you also demonstrate no-CP or just none slotted but keep things like Piercing? Could you also demonstrate the use of a couple light (crafted) pieces over medium? If not, I can do so later.

ixthUA · January 2022

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Everyone who plays ESO and are 160cp can break 20k on the 3 million dummy. I mean everyone.

Stamina templar with jabs using the most basic crafted gear like Hunding's Rage with New Moon will be around 20-25k using only jabs with all the aedric spear passives on using weapon power pots on cooldown.

That is from spamming 1 button repeatedly....

Other classes can be harder to pick up, but aslong as Templar remains as they are everyone can break 20k in my opinion.

Isnt jabs a melee skill? Add a ranged fight and its useless. Also only 1 class has jabs.

Grandchamp1989 · January 2022

ixthUA wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Everyone who plays ESO and are 160cp can break 20k on the 3 million dummy. I mean everyone.

Stamina templar with jabs using the most basic crafted gear like Hunding's Rage with New Moon will be around 20-25k using only jabs with all the aedric spear passives on using weapon power pots on cooldown.

That is from spamming 1 button repeatedly....

Other classes can be harder to pick up, but aslong as Templar remains as they are everyone can break 20k in my opinion.

Isnt jabs a melee skill? Add a ranged fight and its useless. Also only 1 class has jabs.

DDs "home" is in melee range parsing the backs of the enemies while the tank hold the enemies.
Sometimes AOE's needs to be dodged but no fight are exclusively at range.
And yes Templar is arguably the easiest class to pick up which is why I picked it.

Everyone can break 20k in my opinion after they reach cp160.