Auztinito wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

It’s punishes players that wish to play the way they want.

Part of getting good at any game is not just doing any random thing you feel like doing, but actually taking the time to learn how things work.

I do agree the game could do more to teach people to play it. But people who don't want to learn aren't going to use that regardless because that is a player goal issue NOT a game design issue. Even games that teach people better have a skill curve, and the people at the bottom for reasons they can help are generally speaking the ones who do whatever random thing they feel like doing for fun without regards to it's impact on their success or lack thereof.

The story content is more than enough for that kind of player. If you want more, don't just do random stuff and actually try.

It's actually not that hard to get mid-tier dps. It doesn't require trials sets or dlc dungeons. It doesn't require animation canceling, light attack weaving, and in some cases even bar swapping. It just requires an extremely basic rotation and desire to learn. Just tossing down some damage over time and heavy attacking for example can get you there. The game does not ask a lot to get people mid tier.

It is a game design issue if your average player base is not meeting the “pre-determined” average of the game.

For example, in FPS. What is usually average skill? 1.0 KD, right? What happens if more than half your players fail to meet that? As a game designer, that’s your job to figure out and fix. Understanding player behavior and psychology is a backbone to game design. Your job is to get players to meet that average whether you make it easier to achieve through matchmaking systems or giving advanced/more in depth tutorials.

The designers for this game basically like you think they can’t do anything to fix it when there are numerous ways they could.

- Add UI elements to make weaving easier

- Make it optional playstyle through gear sets.

- Tutorialize LA weaving and other mechanics

Instead they leave it in the hands of their community. A community that tells players to solo dungeons if they want to do story. A community that tell players to get gud when they struggle. A community that effectively calls bad dps fakes. I’m sorry. The community was never up to that task and it’s a complete failure on ZOS for thinking the community could solve it.

What level of content are you defining as your pre-defined average?

I'd say the vast majority of PUGS are able to complete normal content. In fact, the last time I remember a storm of complaints about lots of players being unable to complete dungeons, it was when level 10 players regularly got put in White Gold Tower or Imperial City Prison.

Now, that was a case where ZOS realized that the average level 10 player was not able to reliably compete White Gold Tower or Imperial City Prison without a lot of help, and so they sensibly changed the Groupfinder so that players didn't get those dungeons before level 45.

You should also know that ZOS does go back and adjust their DLC dungeons. Usually about a year later, we see them nerf places where groups frequently fail to make them more accessible to the average player who's doing those dungeons. Do note that caveat: the average player doing those dungeons. Not everyone wants to do DLC dungeons - and if they don't, they can't expect ZOS to rebalance content for them that they don't do.

I agree with you that the Devs can and should tutorialize more elements. I'm not sure that most players aren't capable of doing the content they want to do. Complaint threads make a lot of fuss on the forums, but it's rare for me to see PUG DPS so bad as to be worth remembering in normal dungeons. Most groups are capable enough to complete the dungeons.

I specifically state that players that hit 5-10k are only really limited to overland activities. Now while most PUGs won’t struggle because they’re in a group. However, if you enjoy doing story, your sol when you run dungeons. So they are limited to overland because story = solo or premade to Most players hitting that low aren’t going to have people unless they remove

I hate to say it, but you are dead wrong that players who do 5 to 10k DPS are limited to overland. I see plenty of them in Groupfinder and most of the time we do just fine in normal dungeons. DLC can be a pain, but it's not really a problem in base game dungeons as long as their team has a modicum of patience.

Maybe they are limited to doing overland solo, but group dungeons aren't intended to be done solo. They are intended to be done as a group, and specifically able to be PUGed by a random tank, healer, and two DDs. And normal dungeons are successfully PUGed all the time by players with 5-10k DPS.

I'm sorry, but you can't complain that 5-10k DPS won't allow you to solo content that isn't even intended to be soloed. Well, you can complain, but it doesn't really make sense to me. Most players doing 5-10k DPS play and complete normal dungeons as intended - in a group.

Dungeon Norm - Rush to final boss.

Someone needs quests - Pick up quests for them but skip all dialogue.

Players that are doing 5 -10k dps are not going to be able solo like most players tell them to do if they want to do story.

In short, the community is not conducive to low dps players that want to do story within dungeons.

I do think that premade groups are an underrated option for players who want to take their time and enjoy the story. It's not just a thing for low DPS players.

There are plenty of ways to do it, even if you don't have friends who play or they aren't interested. I've seen people on these forums recruit people for story runs. I've seen people recruit in guild chat for story and gear runs. Rarely in zone, but I've seen that too. It's less about low DPS than it is about getting players together for a common goal that goes beyond "just finish the dungeon" which is about all anyone gets out of random Groupfinder.

Now, ideally, ZOS would make a genuine story mode since they insist on including dungeons in their year long story arcs. The catch with bringing group dungeons down to the level of an overland quest or even a public dungeon is that you have to dramatically change the boss mechanics. Even dungeon bosses that can be soloed have a ton of mechanics that are normally spread out between 4 players. It's a lot when it's only one player, so that would need to be changed.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

It’s punishes players that wish to play the way they want.

Part of getting good at any game is not just doing any random thing you feel like doing, but actually taking the time to learn how things work.

I do agree the game could do more to teach people to play it. But people who don't want to learn aren't going to use that regardless because that is a player goal issue NOT a game design issue. Even games that teach people better have a skill curve, and the people at the bottom for reasons they can help are generally speaking the ones who do whatever random thing they feel like doing for fun without regards to it's impact on their success or lack thereof.

The story content is more than enough for that kind of player. If you want more, don't just do random stuff and actually try.

It's actually not that hard to get mid-tier dps. It doesn't require trials sets or dlc dungeons. It doesn't require animation canceling, light attack weaving, and in some cases even bar swapping. It just requires an extremely basic rotation and desire to learn. Just tossing down some damage over time and heavy attacking for example can get you there. The game does not ask a lot to get people mid tier.

It is a game design issue if your average player base is not meeting the “pre-determined” average of the game.

For example, in FPS. What is usually average skill? 1.0 KD, right? What happens if more than half your players fail to meet that? As a game designer, that’s your job to figure out and fix. Understanding player behavior and psychology is a backbone to game design. Your job is to get players to meet that average whether you make it easier to achieve through matchmaking systems or giving advanced/more in depth tutorials.

The designers for this game basically like you think they can’t do anything to fix it when there are numerous ways they could.

- Add UI elements to make weaving easier

- Make it optional playstyle through gear sets.

- Tutorialize LA weaving and other mechanics

Instead they leave it in the hands of their community. A community that tells players to solo dungeons if they want to do story. A community that tell players to get gud when they struggle. A community that effectively calls bad dps fakes. I’m sorry. The community was never up to that task and it’s a complete failure on ZOS for thinking the community could solve it.

What level of content are you defining as your pre-defined average?

I'd say the vast majority of PUGS are able to complete normal content. In fact, the last time I remember a storm of complaints about lots of players being unable to complete dungeons, it was when level 10 players regularly got put in White Gold Tower or Imperial City Prison.

Now, that was a case where ZOS realized that the average level 10 player was not able to reliably compete White Gold Tower or Imperial City Prison without a lot of help, and so they sensibly changed the Groupfinder so that players didn't get those dungeons before level 45.

You should also know that ZOS does go back and adjust their DLC dungeons. Usually about a year later, we see them nerf places where groups frequently fail to make them more accessible to the average player who's doing those dungeons. Do note that caveat: the average player doing those dungeons. Not everyone wants to do DLC dungeons - and if they don't, they can't expect ZOS to rebalance content for them that they don't do.

I agree with you that the Devs can and should tutorialize more elements. I'm not sure that most players aren't capable of doing the content they want to do. Complaint threads make a lot of fuss on the forums, but it's rare for me to see PUG DPS so bad as to be worth remembering in normal dungeons. Most groups are capable enough to complete the dungeons.

I specifically state that players that hit 5-10k are only really limited to overland activities. Now while most PUGs won’t struggle because they’re in a group. However, if you enjoy doing story, your sol when you run dungeons. So they are limited to overland because story = solo or premade to Most players hitting that low aren’t going to have people unless they remove

I hate to say it, but you are dead wrong that players who do 5 to 10k DPS are limited to overland. I see plenty of them in Groupfinder and most of the time we do just fine in normal dungeons. DLC can be a pain, but it's not really a problem in base game dungeons as long as their team has a modicum of patience.

Maybe they are limited to doing overland solo, but group dungeons aren't intended to be done solo. They are intended to be done as a group, and specifically able to be PUGed by a random tank, healer, and two DDs. And normal dungeons are successfully PUGed all the time by players with 5-10k DPS.

I'm sorry, but you can't complain that 5-10k DPS won't allow you to solo content that isn't even intended to be soloed. Well, you can complain, but it doesn't really make sense to me. Most players doing 5-10k DPS play and complete normal dungeons as intended - in a group.

Dungeon Norm - Rush to final boss.

Someone needs quests - Pick up quests for them but skip all dialogue.

Players that are doing 5 -10k dps are not going to be able solo like most players tell them to do if they want to do story.

In short, the community is not conducive to low dps players that want to do story within dungeons.

I do think that premade groups are an underrated option for players who want to take their time and enjoy the story. It's not just a thing for low DPS players.

There are plenty of ways to do it, even if you don't have friends who play or they aren't interested. I've seen people on these forums recruit people for story runs. I've seen people recruit in guild chat for story and gear runs. Rarely in zone, but I've seen that too. It's less about low DPS than it is about getting players together for a common goal that goes beyond "just finish the dungeon" which is about all anyone gets out of random Groupfinder.

Now, ideally, ZOS would make a genuine story mode since they insist on including dungeons in their year long story arcs. The catch with bringing group dungeons down to the level of an overland quest or even a public dungeon is that you have to dramatically change the boss mechanics. Even dungeon bosses that can be soloed have a ton of mechanics that are normally spread out between 4 players. It's a lot when it's only one player, so that would need to be changed.

Maybe instead of changing the mechanics they could force each players screen to see the dialogue and go through it at each point where dialogue is an option before being able to move on to the next part of the dungeon or leave the dungeon. At the end of the dungeon you could have an extra 20 minutes before it kicks you out to have a look around.

Auztinito wrote: »

tzaeru wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

For example, in FPS. What is usually average skill? 1.0 KD, right? What happens if more than half your players fail to meet that? As a game designer, that’s your job to figure out and fix.

FPS games use matchmakers that balance the teams, which aren't similarly possible for PvE games.

The average KD must of course be 1.0 over the whole playerbase, since each kill corresponds with a death.

But if you put the whole playerbase play randomly vs other, the median KD would be significantly below 1.0. Maybe something like 0.6.

Auztinito wrote: »

Your job is to get players to meet that average whether you make it easier to achieve through matchmaking systems or giving advanced/more in depth tutorials.

More in-depth tutorials would be needed. The weaving for example is not explained at all.

But nothing says that a game can't have a lot of content that feels inaccessible to the average player.

It's really up to the developers to decide how accessible and easy or hard they want content to be.

Auztinito wrote: »

- Add UI elements to make weaving easier

- Make it optional playstyle through gear sets.

- Tutorialize LA weaving and other mechanics

Tutorializing is fine but weaving adds depth to the combat experience and increases the skill ceiling, which I think is a good thing. It's nice that via practicing something a lot, you can perform significantly better than the average in it. I like that.

Auztinito wrote: »

A community that tells players to solo dungeons if they want to do story.

My primary guild arranges story dungeon crawls where everyone is given all the time they want to read through lore and listen to dialogue before progressing to the next part.

Personally I tell players, who want to do stories in dungeons, to either look for friends or guildmates to do the dungeon with or alternatively, when they join a dungeon, say in chat "Hi, I'm reading the lore and would like to see all the bosses, is that OK?"

Auztinito wrote: »

A community that tell players to get gud when they struggle.

From me the answer is same as above.. Find friends or guildmates

Auztinito wrote: »

A community that effectively calls bad dps fakes.

I've luckily never seen this happen though I would find it very mean-spirited.

A good enough player should be able to carry a "bad" player so flaming them is just sad.

Accessible != Easy.

For example, let’s look at FFXIV. What makes that game difficult at endgame? It’s mechanics. Mechanics players need to utilize to beat the boss. Anyone is welcome to play the content but it’s not easy especially if we talk about current Savage/Unreal/Ultimates, right? Overtime players learn mechanics because players pass on the knowledge. It doesn’t get easier because it’s more about knowing than pushing your dps to skip a phase.

You can make difficult content that is accessible and beatable by bad players. What matters in that type of content is group. If someone is slacking, you’re a team. Help pick up their slack like a team.

Now, that’s great to hear but it’s not the norm of guilds or this community. That is no different than saying it’s the community’s job to fix this problem.

I'm not sure if I see how a dungeon can simultaneously be challenging and interesting to a "good" player and a "bad" player.

If you prefer to focus on mechanics and don't want to - or can't - get solid with a DPS rotation, play a tank or a healer. They anyway have a bigger demand than DDs do.

Overall I would claim that the group of people that is able to push their DPS very high and the group of people that learn mechanics quickly has a large overlap. Not a 100% overlap, but very large overlap nevertheless.

This is to say that it is likely that you'll find it is mostly the same people who both learn mechanics fast and can react quickly enough to difficult mechanics in veteran content, and who also are able to push their DPS very high.

Personally I think it's great that players who are able to execute accurate rotations and manage DoTs carefully get an advantage. It increases the skill ceiling and gives mechanically talented players something more to strive for. To me, arguing that it's unfair to the average player sounds a bit like arguing that extra damage from headshots in CS:GO is unfair to the players who are not able to reliably hit headshots.

Like, sure, you're right, headshots do give a significant advantage to a skilled player over an unskilled player. But they raise the skill ceiling and make the game more interesting to the skilled players.

Auztinito wrote: »

If that high dps skill ceiling didn’t dictate all dungeons then you’d have more players in dungeons and getting better/progressing.

DD is only half the roles though. In my guild we've several people who only play healer or tank in veteran trials because they can't or don't like to do tight DPS rotations.

Also are you sure you aren't exaggerating a little bit regarding the difficulty of dungeons?

I duo'ed the base game I-dungeons (Fungal Grotto 1, Darkshade Caverns 1, etc) as a newbie without proper sets or a proper rotation with a friend. It was tough for sure but it was also very entertaining and fun.

I have hard time seeing how 4 newbies could not get through normal basegame dungeons.

Auztinito wrote: »

Why do you need/like having such a drastic advantage over others in PvE?

Because if mostly everything is achievable by mostly everyone, then it no longer feels like an achievement.

Auztinito wrote: »

Headshot-ing in a shooter is consistent is easily achieved by anyone.

This is very far from my own experiences. When I played CS:GO actively, I practiced daily and still kept missing shots I think should be hits 99% of time. The difference between headshotting accuracy of someone who practices daily and decidedly compared to someone who only plays casually on the weekends is massive, as it should be.

Auztinito wrote: »

LA Weaving on the other hand isn’t about fairness. For a good amount of players, it’s a “mechanic” that strains players hands, looks incredible wonky, isn’t naturally learned through experience of the gameplay, and is not something that’s consistent in the game.

Game should explain it better, but it kinda is discoverable in the game if you're inclined to consider mechanics like this.

Is it a strain for some players, sure. But it's not really more of a strain than fighting games, or GW2, or so on.

Auztinito wrote: »

If it was made an optional part, what does it change if the gap was shrunken to be more in line? It doesn’t hinder you. You’re still able to do it.

If it didn't give me a meaningful advantage, why would I do it?

Weaving is not required to complete the base game dungeons. I wasn't aware of the proper weaving technique when I completed my first dungeons.

Auztinito wrote: »

If it was made easier through UI elements or the game’s system(Sound Indicator when done correctly). How does it negatively affect you?

That's fine. By making it easier, I thought you've been meaning to make it easier to execute when you are aware of it.

Making it easier to learn sure, I'm all for that.

EDIT, addition:

Here's my admittedly still intermediate-level parse that I used to pass the DPS check for veteran trials in my guild (52k). Potions not used and the skills are somewhat suboptimal, I didn't e.g. have a Barbed Trap available: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747180502406004766/913134762066063410/unknown.png

Light attacks only represent 20% of the damage directly. You would need to light attack every 8 seconds to keep ulti generation up, but that's all really.

Weaving is not the majority of my damage. The sets, DoT management and a somewhat proper rotation make up the bulk.

tzaeru wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

Why do you need/like having such a drastic advantage over others in PvE?

Because if mostly everything is achievable by mostly everyone, then it no longer feels like an achievement.

I guess that's part of me not being a strongly "competitive" person - I honestly don't care what other people have achieved or not, or how much faster they did it than me. Nor do I get a "woohoo, I'm awesome!" from getting Achievement X, Y, or Z. The only part of achievements that matter are things they unlock, like dyes & costumes. Doesn't matter what they represent.


(I was completely baffled, way back when in WoW when they made raids "more accessible", and some raiders screamed about how their fancy uber-stat raid armor was now "worthless", because other people had it. That makes no sense, it still has the same better-stats-than-anything-else. Who the *bleep* cares if anyone else has it equipped?)


- but yeah. Not being really 'competitive' also factors in to not caring to min-max my DPS better & better via repeated target dummy use; and not caring about PvP. I'm just here to mess around, quest, explore, and enjoy the game. /shrug

But don't worry - I don't dungeon or PvP, so I'm not inflicting my lousy builds & DPS on anyone else.

Raideen wrote: »

I don't use trial target dummies, I dont have the patience to sit there for 6 minutes working on a dummy. I use the el cheapo Clockwork city target dummy. I have never hit over 32k on that dummy and I have a number of builds where I use the standard back bar staff magicka build infused spellpower with wall of elements, an armor debuff, a dot and my spammable and I cant even hit much above 15k.

Most of the parses are measured with gear, food and the like chosen for that purpose only, on a dummy that gives you all the buffs you would have in a trial. It's not an equivalent comparison at all.

If you want a better comparison group with a frioend or two wearing high group buffing armour, spamming combat prayer and the other buffs and have them just buff you whilst you beat up the clockwork dummy.

blktauna wrote: »

Magio_ wrote: »

People don't care about pulling their own weight.

Rude man. Low level dungeons simply don't need a lot of DPS. There's no reason to be harsh on folks who are doing ok but not what you personally want.

Low lvl dungeons don't need a lot of DPS when you are grouped with someone who has a lot of DPS
But when your group's overall DPS is around 12k and you struggling to kill even trash mobs the opinion about the amount of DPS is changing... somewhere after waisting 30 min in lvl 10 dungeon...

.

etchedpixels wrote: »

A lot of dungeons you can do with 10k dps solo. My tank does it. It's just a bit more of a mellow trundle than a crash and burn speedrun.

Player skill in this game is more important than DPS, and the two are not the same thing.

Facefister wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

.

etchedpixels wrote: »

A lot of dungeons you can do with 10k dps solo. My tank does it. It's just a bit more of a mellow trundle than a crash and burn speedrun.

Player skill in this game is more important than DPS, and the two are not the same thing.

Consistent high DPS is a result of playing the mechanics correctly. High skill = High performance. The "10k dps dd who never dies" vs "50k dps dd who is always dead" is a fairytale which never happens, it's the other way around most of the times.

Who is the skilled player... the 10k DPS that does not die or the 50k DPS that does not die? Answer: both of them.

Magio_ wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

.

etchedpixels wrote: »

A lot of dungeons you can do with 10k dps solo. My tank does it. It's just a bit more of a mellow trundle than a crash and burn speedrun.

Player skill in this game is more important than DPS, and the two are not the same thing.

Consistent high DPS is a result of playing the mechanics correctly. High skill = High performance. The "10k dps dd who never dies" vs "50k dps dd who is always dead" is a fairytale which never happens, it's the other way around most of the times.

Who is the skilled player... the 10k DPS that does not die or the 50k DPS that does not die? Answer: both of them.

Drop two "skilled" 10k DPS'ers that "never die" into vCR+3 portals and let me know if the raid group would clear.

Well, you realize that if they have gotten to the point of doing vCR+3, they have probably done the easier ones and succeeded. A skilled player would have already achieved that. Right?

karekiz wrote: »

1. Remove kilt. That's a mythic item that requires work <Yes to a super casual doing less than 10K DPS RoM Normal farming is tiring>. Hell even for veterans farming RoM can be tiring and it doesn't even take long.
2. Equip a random mundus. Maybe spell damage. I mean you do damage. This increases spell damage. Damage is good right?
3. Use non dungeon/trial sets. Maybe you can get a random 5 dungeon piece together, but raids are generally scary, im new and not ready for raiding. I came from X MMO where only top end players could manage to enter a raid guild, and im only 200 CP! Traits would be miss matched as well.
4. Forget about parsing. See that's the first issue. You parsed and saw "X" Dmg. Don't use dmg meters either. So with that in mind que into a dungeon. Do your thing. It doesn't matter if it takes forever, this IS current content for you. So it should be hard, which for that player it seems to be. If it goes smoothly, then I guess my build/playing is good enough. I mean I just SAILED through that dungeon right?
5. I see your at crit dmg cap. Whats crit dmg? I dunno. I just slotted something that gave me more resources/mitagation/spell dmg. Maybe a Direct Damage % modifier if I have enough CP. I slotted mitagation because mobs generally hit me hard and I want to be tankier, I slotted resources so I can heal myself more or do more dmg, and the direct dmg because I use one spammable as my main attack. All reasonable choices if you think about it in that way.
6.Speaking of tanky. All those attribute points? I have 20 into Health and the rest into Magic. I wanted to a little bit more tanky because I died to "X" encounter and I wanted to outlive the AoE's. It just asked me this as I level up, and I just selected what I thought best at the time and have stuck with it. Worked so far so it seems ok.


Thats just the tip.

Ok here goes:

1) I don't have nor want the kilt as the wild ring gives a speed boost and I am happy with it.
2) Not a moron so I use what suits my character.
Also why does everyone assume that if I want to just be a casual player I must have some kind of mental impairment?
3) I only do the first 4 dungeons as a healer/tank then delete my character and do randoms again for a week.
Most of my equipment is overland or crafted. And yes trial and vet content is outside of my skill level, but I don't find them scary, just unobtainable.
4) Parse, what pray tell is a parse?
As I said in 3) I only do the first 4 easy dungeons that are usually steamrolled by other players so who am I really hurting?
5) Again who cares If I have a stat at cap, some of us care much more about the fun than the numbers.
I don't play an RPG to become a math professor.
6) What exactly is wrong with a character wanting to be a bit tankier?
Is that something that is also never allowed in most groups, good thing I solo 99% of the time?

Seriously there is room for all playstyles in this game so why pick on those that play it differently than you?

Posts like this are the main reason I avoid trying to group in any harder content, I refuse to give up my empathy for any elitist sense of superiority.

edit: clarity

Alemtuzumab wrote: »

You can easily reach 40k dps by spamming light attack + 2 skills


How is <10k dps even possible?

I noticed your parse consists of 80% to 85% Critical Chance, plus some other buffs. That's a LOT of crit damage for what you're claiming is barely trying. You should understand the players you're confused about have a Crit Chance of maybe 30% at most.