How is it possible to deal such low(<10k) dps? (Solved, #1 updated)

Auztinito · November 2021

tzaeru wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

How is it possible? It’s the average dps of the player base. 5-10k is average for most players on ESO. The problem with dps and threads is exactly why ZOS need to kneecap the top players and make “mechanics” like bar-swapping and LA weaving completely optional play styles. In other words, remove the “skill gap”.

A lot of the skill gap in this game is from LA weaving and complicated rotations when it comes to the gap between high level dps and mid level dps.

But the playerbase that is at 5-10k dps are not actually trying to make their dps good. They do things like make themselves tanky, or do things at random that seem fun, and don't care at all about the negative impact this has on their damage. Those people are just not trying to be good at the game and difficult content like dungeons shouldn't be balanced around them. Because even if zos were to remove animation canceling and weaving, these people's dps would still be a quarter of what the mid-tier dps are doing.

The average player of this game is just uninterested in getting good. They just want to play the way they want to play. There's nothing wrong with that, but content meant to offer a challenge shouldn't be balanced around it either. These 5k dps already get overland, dungeons need not cater to them too.

That’s the problem, though. Isn’t it?

It’s not taught.

It’s punishes players that wish to play the way they want.

Everything but overland is catered to mid-high level players. I’d understand vet and world bosses content being the difficult content but that’s not the case. It’s all dungeons, trials, PvP, World Bosses, and ect.

What does 80%+ of the player base get access without ring punished? Overland. Delves. That’s it. That’s all. So at most they get what with their year long arcs? Half the story? Less than half? Why do mid-high level players want story content when they mostly skip it anyway. Their just grinding for the next piece of gear.

Not to mention, ZOS has said the skill gap is a problem because it’s bloated and unhealthy for a majority of content because most players can’t/won’t do it.

Edit: BTW, 80%+ are not hitting mid range dps.

You make some good points. I think overall it's worth remembering that human skill is not a Bell curve, or a median distribution. It's more of a power curve or a long tail curve.

That is - the bottom 80% of players are way closer to each other in skill than the top 20% players are. There's barely a difference between a bottom 10% and bottom 30% player, but there's a *huge* gap between a top 10% and a top 30% player.

For PvP, this is alright. Just slap in a reasonable matchmaker and a ranking system and the problem sorts itself out. But for PvE, it's much harder.

What is impossible to 80% of players is challenging to 10% of players and trivial to 10% of players.

I would however contest the accuracy of your claim regarding that only Overland stuff was accessible to the ordinary player. Honestly with mere 8k damage you can do the base game dungeons.

Also you can get carried by friends, guild mates or just random players.

Normal trials outside of Cloudrest and maybe Rockgrove are also totally doable to ordinary players. You don't need much any DPS and you can get carried by your group.

Personally one of the things I admire about ESO is the moderately high skill ceiling and difficult content. The weaving/animation cancelling system and that most skills are over time, means that a player can keep improving almost endlessly. Even the best DPS players make small mistakes and are not optimal.

I was thrilled when I was able to finish veteran Maelstorm Arena - especially because I did it without the Ring of the Pale Order or a defensive monster set. I don't want it to be easier. If it was easier, it would take away from the achievement I worked hours for.

A player that wants a specific monster set or wants a specific trial set but is not good enough to carry his own groups needs to look for guilds and friends and ask for help. There's no shame in that. It's totally alright to be a "bad" player and need friends or guild mates to help you with content. I can't underline how okay it is. Never once would I belittle anyone for needing help from their guild or from randoms, it is 100% OK and people need to realize that and anyone flaming a newbie in a dungeon needs to a virtual slap on the face for it.

Never. Flame. "Bad". Players. If you do, you're a bad person and don't deserve to play with other people. Working with other people in games like this is an amazing experience and if you're making others feel bad about themselves because they need help from others you're killing one of their greatest joys of playing a game like this.

That’s the thing. They can have difficult content in many forms that’s accessible to even low level players. Especially so, I get that some old normal dungeons can be solo’d but some are impossible (for example, I built a tank because I can’t weave and trying to cramps my hands, so I brought a companion to help dps. The problem was I could get past Selena’s web 2nd last boss because adds would eventually kill Bastion or I’d run out of resources because of adds) unless you get gearsets that are hidden behind specific dungeons, overland, or crafting. There’s a barrier of entry, regardless.

As for the last part, that’s ideal but we both know that’s not how this community works in game. Especially when you make PvE more competitive than cooperative.

spartaxoxo · November 2021

Auztinito wrote: »

The designers for this game basically like you think they can’t do anything to fix it when there are numerous ways they could.

I quite explicitly stated the opposite, that the developers could be doing more to help the situation.

But I'm just not gonna sit here and pretend like there isn't a lot of people who just play this game for a casual experience. They aren't better because they don't want to be. There is NOTHING wrong with that. It's just a difference in goals. They play to relax not for a challenge.

I actually think it's a beautiful thing that players of all types can play together in this game and find something that is fun for them to do from a challenge perspective.

But the content meant to be challenging from a mid-tier perspective should be balanced around the mid tier. People who aren't interested in that type of challenge don't need the entire game to cater to them anymore than the vet players do. Right now there is something for everyone and that's a good thing.

Mid tier is very obtainable without needing the complex knowledge of elite players. Many of the people who aren't hitting it are not hitting it because they are not interested in that type of gameplay. A better tutorial will not fix that.

The tutorials are more likely to help those who want to be elite but can't get past mid-tier. That's where there is a sizable amount of people actively putting in the effort to try to get better and not succeeding because the game design is not intuitive.

Most people can get good enough to do say normal cloudrest without the need of one.

tzaeru · November 2021

Auztinito wrote: »

For example, in FPS. What is usually average skill? 1.0 KD, right? What happens if more than half your players fail to meet that? As a game designer, that’s your job to figure out and fix.

FPS games use matchmakers that balance the teams, which aren't similarly possible for PvE games.

The average KD must of course be 1.0 over the whole playerbase, since each kill corresponds with a death.

But if you put the whole playerbase play randomly vs other, the median KD would be significantly below 1.0. Maybe something like 0.6.

Auztinito wrote: »

Your job is to get players to meet that average whether you make it easier to achieve through matchmaking systems or giving advanced/more in depth tutorials.

More in-depth tutorials would be needed. The weaving for example is not explained at all.

But nothing says that a game can't have a lot of content that feels inaccessible to the average player.

It's really up to the developers to decide how accessible and easy or hard they want content to be.

Auztinito wrote: »

- Add UI elements to make weaving easier

- Make it optional playstyle through gear sets.

- Tutorialize LA weaving and other mechanics

Tutorializing is fine but weaving adds depth to the combat experience and increases the skill ceiling, which I think is a good thing. It's nice that via practicing something a lot, you can perform significantly better than the average in it. I like that.

Auztinito wrote: »

A community that tells players to solo dungeons if they want to do story.

My primary guild arranges story dungeon crawls where everyone is given all the time they want to read through lore and listen to dialogue before progressing to the next part.

Personally I tell players, who want to do stories in dungeons, to either look for friends or guildmates to do the dungeon with or alternatively, when they join a dungeon, say in chat "Hi, I'm reading the lore and would like to see all the bosses, is that OK?"

Auztinito wrote: »

A community that tell players to get gud when they struggle.

From me the answer is same as above.. Find friends or guildmates

Auztinito wrote: »

A community that effectively calls bad dps fakes.

I've luckily never seen this happen though I would find it very mean-spirited.

A good enough player should be able to carry a "bad" player so flaming them is just sad.

Raideen · November 2021

Jeremy wrote: »

Alemtuzumab wrote: »

You can easily reach 17k dps by spamming light attack

You can easily reach 40k dps by spamming light attack + 2 skills

How is <10k dps even possible?

If they're not wearing offensive gear and don't have CP allocated into damage stats, then 10k is probably right around where they'll be, even if they do have a good rotation.

I also don't think it's that easy to reach 40k dps. So I think you are exaggerating a bit there.

I don't use trial target dummies, I dont have the patience to sit there for 6 minutes working on a dummy. I use the el cheapo Clockwork city target dummy. I have never hit over 32k on that dummy and I have a number of builds where I use the standard back bar staff magicka build infused spellpower with wall of elements, an armor debuff, a dot and my spammable and I cant even hit much above 15k.

Even with all the tutorials in the world and builds by countless streamers/you tubers (which itself is indicative that people dont know how to build their class in this game/poor design), a lot of folks still can't pull the numbers.

Then when you mix in the cluster expletive that is animation cancelling and how much it affects DPS, well its no wonder folks barely hit 10k.

Personally, it does not bother me. If I do more than them, I am grateful that I can help. I just hope someone feels the same about me when I need a carry.

Elsonso · November 2021

BroughBreaux wrote: »

I know this really isn't on topic but it does point out you don't need the good gear to get through most content. You also don't need to stand in front of a dummy to improve your DPS. Join in on a world boss and make a mental note of how you think you did. Change out a couple of skills and sometime later when you do another (or same) boss think back and decide better or worse.

My opinion: Player skill, in how quickly the player can physically press the right button to do damage when the game allows it, and Crit, which multiplies that damage. Builds and skill choices will get you the last mile, but crit and player skill takes you most of the way.

EDIT: Crit is why the OP can do 17k DPS spamming light attacks.

Just based on the current Undaunted event, I really don't think there are that many players who can spam light attacks and get 17k DPS. If those people have been grouped with me, they should skip trying to use skills and just spam LA so we can kill the bosses faster.

VaranisArano · November 2021

Auztinito wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

It’s punishes players that wish to play the way they want.

Part of getting good at any game is not just doing any random thing you feel like doing, but actually taking the time to learn how things work.

I do agree the game could do more to teach people to play it. But people who don't want to learn aren't going to use that regardless because that is a player goal issue NOT a game design issue. Even games that teach people better have a skill curve, and the people at the bottom for reasons they can help are generally speaking the ones who do whatever random thing they feel like doing for fun without regards to it's impact on their success or lack thereof.

The story content is more than enough for that kind of player. If you want more, don't just do random stuff and actually try.

It's actually not that hard to get mid-tier dps. It doesn't require trials sets or dlc dungeons. It doesn't require animation canceling, light attack weaving, and in some cases even bar swapping. It just requires an extremely basic rotation and desire to learn. Just tossing down some damage over time and heavy attacking for example can get you there. The game does not ask a lot to get people mid tier.

It is a game design issue if your average player base is not meeting the “pre-determined” average of the game.

For example, in FPS. What is usually average skill? 1.0 KD, right? What happens if more than half your players fail to meet that? As a game designer, that’s your job to figure out and fix. Understanding player behavior and psychology is a backbone to game design. Your job is to get players to meet that average whether you make it easier to achieve through matchmaking systems or giving advanced/more in depth tutorials.

The designers for this game basically like you think they can’t do anything to fix it when there are numerous ways they could.

- Add UI elements to make weaving easier

- Make it optional playstyle through gear sets.

- Tutorialize LA weaving and other mechanics

Instead they leave it in the hands of their community. A community that tells players to solo dungeons if they want to do story. A community that tell players to get gud when they struggle. A community that effectively calls bad dps fakes. I’m sorry. The community was never up to that task and it’s a complete failure on ZOS for thinking the community could solve it.

What level of content are you defining as your pre-defined average?

I'd say the vast majority of PUGS are able to complete normal content. In fact, the last time I remember a storm of complaints about lots of players being unable to complete dungeons, it was when level 10 players regularly got put in White Gold Tower or Imperial City Prison.

Now, that was a case where ZOS realized that the average level 10 player was not able to reliably compete White Gold Tower or Imperial City Prison without a lot of help, and so they sensibly changed the Groupfinder so that players didn't get those dungeons before level 45.

You should also know that ZOS does go back and adjust their DLC dungeons. Usually about a year later, we see them nerf places where groups frequently fail to make them more accessible to the average player who's doing those dungeons. Do note that caveat: the average player doing those dungeons. Not everyone wants to do DLC dungeons - and if they don't, they can't expect ZOS to rebalance content for them that they don't do.

I agree with you that the Devs can and should tutorialize more elements. I'm not sure that most players aren't capable of doing the content they want to do. Complaint threads make a lot of fuss on the forums, but it's rare for me to see PUG DPS so bad as to be worth remembering in normal dungeons. Most groups are capable enough to complete the dungeons.

spartaxoxo · November 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

What level of content are you defining as your pre-defined average?

They already defined it

Auztinito wrote: »

How is it possible? It’s the average dps of the player base. 5-10k is average for most players on ESO. The problem with dps and threads is exactly why ZOS need to kneecap the top players and make “mechanics” like bar-swapping and LA weaving completely optional play styles. In other words, remove the “skill gap”.

Auztinito wrote: »

Everything but overland is catered to mid-high level players. I’d understand vet and world bosses content being the difficult content but that’s not the case. It’s all dungeons, trials, PvP, World Bosses, and ect.

A player doing 5-10k dps who cannot do thing anything outside of delves and story quests without needing a group.

driosketch · November 2021

Bouldercleave wrote: »

For me DPS just isn't all that important - As a group content - solo specialist, the only thing that matters is that I am still standing at the end of the fight. I would assume that people with super low DPS don't group a lot and just don't know that DPS is actually a thing.

I have soloed almost everything that can be soloed in the game ( damn you the few dungeons that have mechanics that you can't solo ) and I can tell you for a fact that the only thing that matters in a fight is who comes out of it alive...

This is probably true. I have a Khajiit character with no main weapon slotted I built for a challenge. Even with a skill rotation and a zero punch animation, (when an off hand is slotted even though it isn't used), he does an 8k-10k sustained parse on a test dummy. This same character can clear Maelstrom Arena on normal, fairly quickly too. (Stone Fist will one shot lowest tier enemies as they are weaker than overland wolves on normal.)

90% on this game content does not demand high or even medium DPS, and will only offer some mechanics as any challenge to players. It is only when doing group content, vet solo arenas, or trying to solo group content, when your DPS will matter, because the group/you wants to burn the bosses for time, to get past the mechanics, or because a DPS check is the mechanic.

VaranisArano · November 2021

spartaxoxo wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

What level of content are you defining as your pre-defined average?

They already defined it

Auztinito wrote: »

How is it possible? It’s the average dps of the player base. 5-10k is average for most players on ESO. The problem with dps and threads is exactly why ZOS need to kneecap the top players and make “mechanics” like bar-swapping and LA weaving completely optional play styles. In other words, remove the “skill gap”.

Auztinito wrote: »

Everything but overland is catered to mid-high level players. I’d understand vet and world bosses content being the difficult content but that’s not the case. It’s all dungeons, trials, PvP, World Bosses, and ect.

A player doing 5-10k dps who cannot do thing anything outside of delves and story quests without needing a group.

I asked about the level of content, not the DPS. No offense.

Because an "average" player doing 5-10k DPS can do group dungeons as intended, i.e. with a group. I complete normal dungeons pretty frequently with players doing about that level of DPS.

Players doing 5-10k DPS also don't have problems doing other group content like World Bosses when they play it as intended, i.e. with a group.

If we're talking solo, then sure, you've got a point - but that content isn't really designed to be soloed. I've still soloed dungeons on a character who only does 15k on a 3m dummy - she killed High Kinlord Rillis on normal with only 7k DPs after his stuns, CCs, and knockbacks had their way with her. It was not my most stellar fight, but it goes to show that low DPS really isn't always the primary factor in stopping people from completing content. More often, it's the general lack of desire to learn how to play in an optimized fashion. I killed Rillis with low DPS, but I knew the fight, I knew the mechanics, and I knew how to play that character. Players who lack that would struggle to solo the fight, and reasonably so. In a group, its very rare to have problems in normal Banished Cells 1.

So I want to know what level of content they expect ZOS to rebalance for "average" players, since I disagree that everything harder than overland is for "above average players."

Tutorials are great! Just, we don't need loads of extra tutorials for players to do anything harder than overland content. The "average" player doing 5-10k DPS can actually do a lot more content than some people think as long as they are willing to group up for group content.

spartaxoxo · November 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

I asked about the level of content, not the DPS. No offense.

I gave you both, no offense. They said they considers these players to only
be able to do overland and delves well.

You'll have to ask them about the rest. It's not my take and I already posted a tutorial is not needed to do stuff like normal dungeons.

VaranisArano · November 2021

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I gave you both, no offense. He said he considers them to only able to do overland and delves

I was asking them to clarify in part because I wanted to open a dialogue with them about their definition because I disagree with it.

While I appreciate your clarification, it's not actually addressing the question I had for Auztinito.

If they say that the average player cannot reach the "predetermined average of the game", then that begs the question of what level of content they think average players should be able to do, once the Devs have finished tutorializing or rebalancing segments of the game.

I don't agree that an average player doing 5-10k DPS is stuck doing only overland content and delves. I've seen plenty of them do fairly well in normal dungeons and fighting world bosses when they played as intended with a group.

It leaves me wondering what level of content Auztinito considers desirable for the "average" player to be able to reach. Or even, given one of their examples, the average solo player.

I have some concerns if they're talking about it being desirable for "average 5-10k DPS" players to do normal dungeons when in my experience, they can! They do it all the time! I have some concerns about trying to rebalance dungeon mechanics for solo players outside of a story mode, when by and large, most "average" players can complete Selene's Webs on normal when playing in a group as intended.

Again, I appreciate your clarification. It just wasn't the discussion I was hoping to have with Auztinito.

Edited in response to:

spartaxoxo wrote: »

You'll have to ask them about the rest. It's not my take and I already posted a tutorial is not needed to do stuff like normal dungeons.

Yeah, that's more or less what I was trying to do. Badly, I guess. Sorry about that.

I think we agree on not needing tutorials for normal dungeons. They might be helpful, but the many groups I see succeeding suggests they really aren't necessary.

Alemtuzumab · November 2021

DonHardstyle wrote: »

You should realize that not everyone cares about their DPS. People are just having fun in the game.

Myself I do 105k on my magsorc. I still think that's to low and try to improve. I always end up doing between 50-70% of the DPS in random pug dungeons. As fake healer. Accept that others wont do the same DPS as you and you are good.

Besides that in dungeons, you don't even need that big of a DPS.

Instead of posting something like this, offer then help. I doubled, or even tripled DPS of others with just simple tips.

Besides that, your screenshot doesn't say an single thing. you parsed for 50 seconds, not even doing 1% of the health of that Dummy.

You should see my other post, where I was told some nasty things by doing 75% dmg of the group as a healer. Normally I’d love to offer help, but ppl like that can be really disheartening…

Alemtuzumab · November 2021

DonHardstyle wrote: »

You should realize that not everyone cares about their DPS. People are just having fun in the game.

Myself I do 105k on my magsorc. I still think that's to low and try to improve. I always end up doing between 50-70% of the DPS in random pug dungeons. As fake healer. Accept that others wont do the same DPS as you and you are good.

Besides that in dungeons, you don't even need that big of a DPS.

Instead of posting something like this, offer then help. I doubled, or even tripled DPS of others with just simple tips.

Besides that, your screenshot doesn't say an single thing. you parsed for 50 seconds, not even doing 1% of the health of that Dummy.

I’m not standing there left-clicking for 8 minutes to kill the damn thing…Just trying to prove a point.

VaranisArano · November 2021

Alemtuzumab wrote: »

DonHardstyle wrote: »

You should realize that not everyone cares about their DPS. People are just having fun in the game.

Myself I do 105k on my magsorc. I still think that's to low and try to improve. I always end up doing between 50-70% of the DPS in random pug dungeons. As fake healer. Accept that others wont do the same DPS as you and you are good.

Besides that in dungeons, you don't even need that big of a DPS.

Instead of posting something like this, offer then help. I doubled, or even tripled DPS of others with just simple tips.

Besides that, your screenshot doesn't say an single thing. you parsed for 50 seconds, not even doing 1% of the health of that Dummy.

I’m not standing there left-clicking for 8 minutes to kill the damn thing…Just trying to prove a point.

A point that is unfortunately ruined by the lack of any realistic ability to replicate it in a dungeon by an average player.

It's trying to compare a cheese parse to a dungeon boss fight.

If the <10k DPS players you are trying to prove a point about knew how to do a cheese parse against a trial dummy with light attacks, they probably wouldn't be doing low DPS against a dungeon boss.

MasterSpatula · November 2021

I'm old enough to remember the "it's literally impossible not to hit" number was 30K. People really need to get over themselves.

azjuwelz · November 2021

I'm a guild master who offers a free trader to members. My guild attracts a lot of newer players-- those who have never completed trials or even dungeons before. I was also a complete noob when I started, and I haven't forgotten what it's like.

One major piece of advice that Zos should include in the starting tutorial is that to maximize damage, all attribute points should be put in one spot. This is the complete opposite of every other Elder Scrolls game where it is most advantageous to spread points evenly. I made this mistake myself, and I'd say it's the number 1 issue I see with players even with 1000CP who can't do damage.

The light attack weaving is rough, I admit, but that's really more for veteran content. I'm 50, have chronic pain and arthritis, playing blindly on console, and it has taken me 2 years to get to what I can currently parse; the highest I've done on the trial dummy is 68.5k.

Of course the fact I play nightblades undoubtedly factors into that. I just leveled a sorc, and I'm hoping that'll be easier on my poor hands and wrists. I can only parse a few times before I have to stop, and then generally I can barely play the next day.

Despite this, I've completed almost every vet dungeon in the game (just need to find the time to complete the 5 dlcs that I haven't done), and I've completed all the vet Craglorn trials plus Vet Sunspire and Rockgrove. I've also tanked the vet Craglorn trials and VAS, and am working on VCR.

Most of what I learned was either online or through guilds, and I think this is how Zos likes it. This is an incredibly rich game but it's also incredibly complicated. We never know what the story is with other players we may be randomly grouped with, so it's best to have a little respect and consideration.

Last night a friend and me needed our dungeon for the event, so I hopped on my tank and we queued for normal random. We got Spindleclutch 1 and thought oh, easy dungeon, this'll be fast. But the healer and other dps were only level 15, and they were standing still like they'd never been in a dungeon before. As I led the way, I really do think it was their first-- my friend and I cleared the initial adds, I poked the big spider and turned her...and the two stayed Farrrrrrr away, lol, concentrating only on a couple tiny spiders that had escaped our cleave and frost wall. The two of them gradually became bolder, but it took a long time just to coax them forward. We cleared the dungeon just fine-- I was actually leveling proxy det as a trigger for my Powerful Assault, lol. But this just shows that you never know what the random group finder will bring.

And yeah, I don't think they had much damage considering how long it took them to kill baby spiders. I just hope they actually hit the bosses to get credit for them.

Mik195 · November 2021

I think the game could use a tutorial that people can access multiple times. The initial tutorial is fine, but it never mentions using skills (because players don't have them yet ) or potions or food.

I'd like to see something where players can go into a tutorial and get some coaching. Maybe a message pops up explaining how AOE or DOT skills can help if the person doing the tutorial only attacks with a weapon. Or, a message about heavy attacking or using a potion when the person's resources get low. And it would be a lot of work, but it would be great if you could use a skill and it explains what it just did. This skill took 3 seconds to arm and gave you major breach which means xxxx and if you did other skill next, it would let you yyyyy.

Kwoung · November 2021

Mik195 wrote: »

I think the game could use a tutorial that people can access multiple times. The initial tutorial is fine, but it never mentions using skills (because players don't have them yet ) or potions or food.

I'd like to see something where players can go into a tutorial and get some coaching. Maybe a message pops up explaining how AOE or DOT skills can help if the person doing the tutorial only attacks with a weapon. Or, a message about heavy attacking or using a potion when the person's resources get low. And it would be a lot of work, but it would be great if you could use a skill and it explains what it just did. This skill took 3 seconds to arm and gave you major breach which means xxxx and if you did other skill next, it would let you yyyyy.

I have played games in which the tutorial is basically "future you", with all the skills, gear, etc... you will eventually have access to. Those tutorials then do show you how to actually play the game, but once you are out of them, you are back to being a level 1 newb, but at least you have a clue and can start practicing towards "future you". ESO would be well served to use such a system, especially since gittin gud here is so freakin complicated.

Edit: Some of those other games also break the tutorial into sections, which as you suggest you can go back to and practice as often as you want, from the login screen.

Elsonso · November 2021

azjuwelz wrote: »

ne major piece of advice that Zos should include in the starting tutorial is that to maximize damage, all attribute points should be put in one spot. This is the complete opposite of every other Elder Scrolls game where it is most advantageous to spread points evenly. I made this mistake myself, and I'd say it's the number 1 issue I see with players even with 1000CP who can't do damage.

Actually, I think that ZOS is trying to encourage people to _not_ do that with the recent hybrid/quasi-homogenization work that they are rolling out.

Besides, characters intending to be a stamina class can easily do both stamina and magicka until they are ready to transition. Put points into stamina for the weapon skills they need to develop and magicka for the class skills they will need to morph. This is a magicka game, and stamina class skills are an aftermarket addition.

(Edit: and if the game is still skimpy on HEALTH at low levels (have not checked lately) then points into Health to get it up to at least 17k, then respec down the road)

DarcyMardin · November 2021

I’m an old-timer, both in game time and IRL years (73), so I no longer have the speed and reflexes of a 20-year-old. And I’m happy if I can do 15-20 k DPS. Actually, I’m happy most of the time and rarely look at my DPS as long as stuff dies. No trial gear, only my weapons are golded out, but I do use decent set gear and the appropriate buffs.

I’m a casual player and I don’t inflict my low deeps on groups. I never queue for vet dungeons (although my husband and I can duo some of them) and if I occasionally queue for random normal, I take a healer or, sometimes, a tank. I can solo many normal dungeons and together, my husband and I whip thru the easy ones. In other words, for most purposes in the game, DPS numbers in the teens are more than adequate.

I’ll never do vet trials, but I’m cool with that. I was on an ace raiding team in LOTRO, but I was a decade or more younger then. Honestly, I don’t miss the frequent group drama of progressive raiding.

Auztinito · November 2021

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

The designers for this game basically like you think they can’t do anything to fix it when there are numerous ways they could.

I quite explicitly stated the opposite, that the developers could be doing more to help the situation.

But I'm just not gonna sit here and pretend like there isn't a lot of people who just play this game for a casual experience. They aren't better because they don't want to be. There is NOTHING wrong with that. It's just a difference in goals. They play to relax not for a challenge.

I actually think it's a beautiful thing that players of all types can play together in this game and find something that is fun for them to do from a challenge perspective.

But the content meant to be challenging from a mid-tier perspective should be balanced around the mid tier. People who aren't interested in that type of challenge don't need the entire game to cater to them anymore than the vet players do. Right now there is something for everyone and that's a good thing.

Mid tier is very obtainable without needing the complex knowledge of elite players. Many of the people who aren't hitting it are not hitting it because they are not interested in that type of gameplay. A better tutorial will not fix that.

The tutorials are more likely to help those who want to be elite but can't get past mid-tier. That's where there is a sizable amount of people actively putting in the effort to try to get better and not succeeding because the game design is not intuitive.

Most people can get good enough to do say normal cloudrest without the need of one.

Yet, that percentage is small in comparison. If they made LA Weaving easier or less straining. You’d see more players in the mid-range. They wouldn’t hit roadblocks of difficulty where they need to stop whatever they’re doing and sit down for a few hours and look through armor sets collection to find armor that fits their level/play-style so they can advance in basic zone quests.

It’s not that they balance the content around mid-range that’s the problem. It’s that the mid range is not your player average when it should be. It’s balanced around what should be high level players but their mid range in comparison to elite/high level because the gap between bottom and mid range is enormous.

If they tutorialized or made Weaving a mechanic with a tell on when your doing it correct/incorrect or even more consistent/easier to do You’d see an increase of mid-range. If they took out some of the power from mid and high range players had, it’d solve the problem but CP and new gear effectively bloat the gap through gameplay and causing it to act as a form of vertical progression.

Auztinito · November 2021

tzaeru wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

For example, in FPS. What is usually average skill? 1.0 KD, right? What happens if more than half your players fail to meet that? As a game designer, that’s your job to figure out and fix.

FPS games use matchmakers that balance the teams, which aren't similarly possible for PvE games.

The average KD must of course be 1.0 over the whole playerbase, since each kill corresponds with a death.

But if you put the whole playerbase play randomly vs other, the median KD would be significantly below 1.0. Maybe something like 0.6.

Auztinito wrote: »

Your job is to get players to meet that average whether you make it easier to achieve through matchmaking systems or giving advanced/more in depth tutorials.

More in-depth tutorials would be needed. The weaving for example is not explained at all.

But nothing says that a game can't have a lot of content that feels inaccessible to the average player.

It's really up to the developers to decide how accessible and easy or hard they want content to be.

Auztinito wrote: »

- Add UI elements to make weaving easier

- Make it optional playstyle through gear sets.

- Tutorialize LA weaving and other mechanics

Tutorializing is fine but weaving adds depth to the combat experience and increases the skill ceiling, which I think is a good thing. It's nice that via practicing something a lot, you can perform significantly better than the average in it. I like that.

Auztinito wrote: »

A community that tells players to solo dungeons if they want to do story.

My primary guild arranges story dungeon crawls where everyone is given all the time they want to read through lore and listen to dialogue before progressing to the next part.

Personally I tell players, who want to do stories in dungeons, to either look for friends or guildmates to do the dungeon with or alternatively, when they join a dungeon, say in chat "Hi, I'm reading the lore and would like to see all the bosses, is that OK?"

Auztinito wrote: »

A community that tell players to get gud when they struggle.

From me the answer is same as above.. Find friends or guildmates

Auztinito wrote: »

A community that effectively calls bad dps fakes.

I've luckily never seen this happen though I would find it very mean-spirited.

A good enough player should be able to carry a "bad" player so flaming them is just sad.

Accessible != Easy.

For example, let’s look at FFXIV. What makes that game difficult at endgame? It’s mechanics. Mechanics players need to utilize to beat the boss. Anyone is welcome to play the content but it’s not easy especially if we talk about current Savage/Unreal/Ultimates, right? Overtime players learn mechanics because players pass on the knowledge. It doesn’t get easier because it’s more about knowing than pushing your dps to skip a phase.

You can make difficult content that is accessible and beatable by bad players. What matters in that type of content is group. If someone is slacking, you’re a team. Help pick up their slack like a team.

Now, that’s great to hear but it’s not the norm of guilds or this community. That is no different than saying it’s the community’s job to fix this problem.

Auztinito · November 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

It’s punishes players that wish to play the way they want.

Part of getting good at any game is not just doing any random thing you feel like doing, but actually taking the time to learn how things work.

I do agree the game could do more to teach people to play it. But people who don't want to learn aren't going to use that regardless because that is a player goal issue NOT a game design issue. Even games that teach people better have a skill curve, and the people at the bottom for reasons they can help are generally speaking the ones who do whatever random thing they feel like doing for fun without regards to it's impact on their success or lack thereof.

The story content is more than enough for that kind of player. If you want more, don't just do random stuff and actually try.

It's actually not that hard to get mid-tier dps. It doesn't require trials sets or dlc dungeons. It doesn't require animation canceling, light attack weaving, and in some cases even bar swapping. It just requires an extremely basic rotation and desire to learn. Just tossing down some damage over time and heavy attacking for example can get you there. The game does not ask a lot to get people mid tier.

It is a game design issue if your average player base is not meeting the “pre-determined” average of the game.

For example, in FPS. What is usually average skill? 1.0 KD, right? What happens if more than half your players fail to meet that? As a game designer, that’s your job to figure out and fix. Understanding player behavior and psychology is a backbone to game design. Your job is to get players to meet that average whether you make it easier to achieve through matchmaking systems or giving advanced/more in depth tutorials.

The designers for this game basically like you think they can’t do anything to fix it when there are numerous ways they could.

- Add UI elements to make weaving easier

- Make it optional playstyle through gear sets.

- Tutorialize LA weaving and other mechanics

Instead they leave it in the hands of their community. A community that tells players to solo dungeons if they want to do story. A community that tell players to get gud when they struggle. A community that effectively calls bad dps fakes. I’m sorry. The community was never up to that task and it’s a complete failure on ZOS for thinking the community could solve it.

What level of content are you defining as your pre-defined average?

I'd say the vast majority of PUGS are able to complete normal content. In fact, the last time I remember a storm of complaints about lots of players being unable to complete dungeons, it was when level 10 players regularly got put in White Gold Tower or Imperial City Prison.

Now, that was a case where ZOS realized that the average level 10 player was not able to reliably compete White Gold Tower or Imperial City Prison without a lot of help, and so they sensibly changed the Groupfinder so that players didn't get those dungeons before level 45.

You should also know that ZOS does go back and adjust their DLC dungeons. Usually about a year later, we see them nerf places where groups frequently fail to make them more accessible to the average player who's doing those dungeons. Do note that caveat: the average player doing those dungeons. Not everyone wants to do DLC dungeons - and if they don't, they can't expect ZOS to rebalance content for them that they don't do.

I agree with you that the Devs can and should tutorialize more elements. I'm not sure that most players aren't capable of doing the content they want to do. Complaint threads make a lot of fuss on the forums, but it's rare for me to see PUG DPS so bad as to be worth remembering in normal dungeons. Most groups are capable enough to complete the dungeons.

I specifically state that players that hit 5-10k are only really limited to overland activities. Now while most PUGs won’t struggle because they’re in a group. However, if you enjoy doing story, your sol when you run dungeons. So they are limited to overland because story = solo or premade to Most players hitting that low aren’t going to have people unless they remove

VaranisArano · November 2021

Auztinito wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

It’s punishes players that wish to play the way they want.

Part of getting good at any game is not just doing any random thing you feel like doing, but actually taking the time to learn how things work.

I do agree the game could do more to teach people to play it. But people who don't want to learn aren't going to use that regardless because that is a player goal issue NOT a game design issue. Even games that teach people better have a skill curve, and the people at the bottom for reasons they can help are generally speaking the ones who do whatever random thing they feel like doing for fun without regards to it's impact on their success or lack thereof.

The story content is more than enough for that kind of player. If you want more, don't just do random stuff and actually try.

It's actually not that hard to get mid-tier dps. It doesn't require trials sets or dlc dungeons. It doesn't require animation canceling, light attack weaving, and in some cases even bar swapping. It just requires an extremely basic rotation and desire to learn. Just tossing down some damage over time and heavy attacking for example can get you there. The game does not ask a lot to get people mid tier.

It is a game design issue if your average player base is not meeting the “pre-determined” average of the game.

For example, in FPS. What is usually average skill? 1.0 KD, right? What happens if more than half your players fail to meet that? As a game designer, that’s your job to figure out and fix. Understanding player behavior and psychology is a backbone to game design. Your job is to get players to meet that average whether you make it easier to achieve through matchmaking systems or giving advanced/more in depth tutorials.

The designers for this game basically like you think they can’t do anything to fix it when there are numerous ways they could.

- Add UI elements to make weaving easier

- Make it optional playstyle through gear sets.

- Tutorialize LA weaving and other mechanics

Instead they leave it in the hands of their community. A community that tells players to solo dungeons if they want to do story. A community that tell players to get gud when they struggle. A community that effectively calls bad dps fakes. I’m sorry. The community was never up to that task and it’s a complete failure on ZOS for thinking the community could solve it.

What level of content are you defining as your pre-defined average?

I'd say the vast majority of PUGS are able to complete normal content. In fact, the last time I remember a storm of complaints about lots of players being unable to complete dungeons, it was when level 10 players regularly got put in White Gold Tower or Imperial City Prison.

Now, that was a case where ZOS realized that the average level 10 player was not able to reliably compete White Gold Tower or Imperial City Prison without a lot of help, and so they sensibly changed the Groupfinder so that players didn't get those dungeons before level 45.

You should also know that ZOS does go back and adjust their DLC dungeons. Usually about a year later, we see them nerf places where groups frequently fail to make them more accessible to the average player who's doing those dungeons. Do note that caveat: the average player doing those dungeons. Not everyone wants to do DLC dungeons - and if they don't, they can't expect ZOS to rebalance content for them that they don't do.

I agree with you that the Devs can and should tutorialize more elements. I'm not sure that most players aren't capable of doing the content they want to do. Complaint threads make a lot of fuss on the forums, but it's rare for me to see PUG DPS so bad as to be worth remembering in normal dungeons. Most groups are capable enough to complete the dungeons.

I specifically state that players that hit 5-10k are only really limited to overland activities. Now while most PUGs won’t struggle because they’re in a group. However, if you enjoy doing story, your sol when you run dungeons. So they are limited to overland because story = solo or premade to Most players hitting that low aren’t going to have people unless they remove

I hate to say it, but you are dead wrong that players who do 5 to 10k DPS are limited to overland. I see plenty of them in Groupfinder and most of the time we do just fine in normal dungeons. DLC can be a pain, but it's not really a problem in base game dungeons as long as their team has a modicum of patience.

Maybe they are limited to doing overland solo, but group dungeons aren't intended to be done solo. They are intended to be done as a group, and specifically able to be PUGed by a random tank, healer, and two DDs. And normal dungeons are successfully PUGed all the time by players with 5-10k DPS.

I'm sorry, but you can't complain that 5-10k DPS won't allow you to solo content that isn't even intended to be soloed. Well, you can complain, but it doesn't really make sense to me. Most players doing 5-10k DPS play and complete normal dungeons as intended - in a group.

Alinhbo_Tyaka · November 2021

Auztinito wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

It’s punishes players that wish to play the way they want.

Part of getting good at any game is not just doing any random thing you feel like doing, but actually taking the time to learn how things work.

I do agree the game could do more to teach people to play it. But people who don't want to learn aren't going to use that regardless because that is a player goal issue NOT a game design issue. Even games that teach people better have a skill curve, and the people at the bottom for reasons they can help are generally speaking the ones who do whatever random thing they feel like doing for fun without regards to it's impact on their success or lack thereof.

The story content is more than enough for that kind of player. If you want more, don't just do random stuff and actually try.

It's actually not that hard to get mid-tier dps. It doesn't require trials sets or dlc dungeons. It doesn't require animation canceling, light attack weaving, and in some cases even bar swapping. It just requires an extremely basic rotation and desire to learn. Just tossing down some damage over time and heavy attacking for example can get you there. The game does not ask a lot to get people mid tier.

It is a game design issue if your average player base is not meeting the “pre-determined” average of the game.

For example, in FPS. What is usually average skill? 1.0 KD, right? What happens if more than half your players fail to meet that? As a game designer, that’s your job to figure out and fix. Understanding player behavior and psychology is a backbone to game design. Your job is to get players to meet that average whether you make it easier to achieve through matchmaking systems or giving advanced/more in depth tutorials.

The designers for this game basically like you think they can’t do anything to fix it when there are numerous ways they could.

- Add UI elements to make weaving easier

- Make it optional playstyle through gear sets.

- Tutorialize LA weaving and other mechanics

Instead they leave it in the hands of their community. A community that tells players to solo dungeons if they want to do story. A community that tell players to get gud when they struggle. A community that effectively calls bad dps fakes. I’m sorry. The community was never up to that task and it’s a complete failure on ZOS for thinking the community could solve it.

What level of content are you defining as your pre-defined average?

I'd say the vast majority of PUGS are able to complete normal content. In fact, the last time I remember a storm of complaints about lots of players being unable to complete dungeons, it was when level 10 players regularly got put in White Gold Tower or Imperial City Prison.

Now, that was a case where ZOS realized that the average level 10 player was not able to reliably compete White Gold Tower or Imperial City Prison without a lot of help, and so they sensibly changed the Groupfinder so that players didn't get those dungeons before level 45.

You should also know that ZOS does go back and adjust their DLC dungeons. Usually about a year later, we see them nerf places where groups frequently fail to make them more accessible to the average player who's doing those dungeons. Do note that caveat: the average player doing those dungeons. Not everyone wants to do DLC dungeons - and if they don't, they can't expect ZOS to rebalance content for them that they don't do.

I agree with you that the Devs can and should tutorialize more elements. I'm not sure that most players aren't capable of doing the content they want to do. Complaint threads make a lot of fuss on the forums, but it's rare for me to see PUG DPS so bad as to be worth remembering in normal dungeons. Most groups are capable enough to complete the dungeons.

I specifically state that players that hit 5-10k are only really limited to overland activities. Now while most PUGs won’t struggle because they’re in a group. However, if you enjoy doing story, your sol when you run dungeons. So they are limited to overland because story = solo or premade to Most players hitting that low aren’t going to have people unless they remove

I'm not sure it is intended but you are giving the appearance of being an elitist. This comment makes me believe that you are trying to consign lower skill players to open world only and that they don't deserve to run group content.

I don't know what my in dungeon DPS is, nor do I care, other than it is enough to hold my own in a group for normal level instances and to be able to solo a number of the base game normal dungeons. When I PUG or run content with a preformed group I don't care if there are other players who cannot get high DPS as it is a group effort. In fact in my old guild we regularly put together runs for lower level and lower skill players to be sure they had opportunities to not only run the quests but farm gear too. None of us would have considered, nor do I today, that they should be prevented from joining groups or participating in group content. It has always been my opinion that normal level content is intended to be played by all those who wish to give it a try. If some players disagree with that they can always make their own groups with their own rules or run higher level content where they won't have to contend with less skilled players.

etchedpixels · November 2021

For a lot of the people I've helped it's not weaving. It's much more fundamental

- Not knowing which skill to use
- Not knowing about buffs
- Wrong food
- Wrong gear
- Wrong traits
- Wrong mundus

And none of this is really surprising. The game doesn't explain the combat model, the skill system doesn't put the usefulness of similar looking skills in obvious places so many players have no idea what skills to run when or that the skill they got fifth in order down the skills for a weapon is actually utterly useless compared to a higher up one. The buffs from putting skills on bars are buried in tiny notes often in unrelated places in passives and refer to buffs many casual players don't understand. Slotting magelight is totally counter-intuitive, and things like the warden animal buffs are often not known about.

Getting penetration up, the right spammable and major sorcery and friends some uptime transforms a lot of players. Putting some reasonable gear on makes a further boost. Getting some armour traits right pushes it a bit more.

It's no wonder that so many non-casual high end players cut and paste their characters from places like Alcast really.

Kwoung · November 2021

etchedpixels wrote: »

For a lot of the people I've helped it's not weaving. It's much more fundamental

- Not knowing which skill to use
- Not knowing about buffs
- Wrong food
- Wrong gear
- Wrong traits
- Wrong mundus

And none of this is really surprising. The game doesn't explain the combat model, the skill system doesn't put the usefulness of similar looking skills in obvious places so many players have no idea what skills to run when or that the skill they got fifth in order down the skills for a weapon is actually utterly useless compared to a higher up one. The buffs from putting skills on bars are buried in tiny notes often in unrelated places in passives and refer to buffs many casual players don't understand. Slotting magelight is totally counter-intuitive, and things like the warden animal buffs are often not known about.

Getting penetration up, the right spammable and major sorcery and friends some uptime transforms a lot of players. Putting some reasonable gear on makes a further boost. Getting some armour traits right pushes it a bit more.

It's no wonder that so many non-casual high end players cut and paste their characters from places like Alcast really.

Yeah, the game does a pretty bad job at even hinting on how to be more effective. We have a forum for it over on my guilds Discord, and the number of folks I have seen jump from 10-15k DPS to doing 50K+ literally overnight, is mind boggling. All with a few simple tips. Then with some practice weaving, they are in the 70-80K range and jumping in on our progression trials and earning Perfected gear.

Auztinito · November 2021

Alinhbo_Tyaka wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

It’s punishes players that wish to play the way they want.

Part of getting good at any game is not just doing any random thing you feel like doing, but actually taking the time to learn how things work.

I do agree the game could do more to teach people to play it. But people who don't want to learn aren't going to use that regardless because that is a player goal issue NOT a game design issue. Even games that teach people better have a skill curve, and the people at the bottom for reasons they can help are generally speaking the ones who do whatever random thing they feel like doing for fun without regards to it's impact on their success or lack thereof.

The story content is more than enough for that kind of player. If you want more, don't just do random stuff and actually try.

It's actually not that hard to get mid-tier dps. It doesn't require trials sets or dlc dungeons. It doesn't require animation canceling, light attack weaving, and in some cases even bar swapping. It just requires an extremely basic rotation and desire to learn. Just tossing down some damage over time and heavy attacking for example can get you there. The game does not ask a lot to get people mid tier.

It is a game design issue if your average player base is not meeting the “pre-determined” average of the game.

For example, in FPS. What is usually average skill? 1.0 KD, right? What happens if more than half your players fail to meet that? As a game designer, that’s your job to figure out and fix. Understanding player behavior and psychology is a backbone to game design. Your job is to get players to meet that average whether you make it easier to achieve through matchmaking systems or giving advanced/more in depth tutorials.

The designers for this game basically like you think they can’t do anything to fix it when there are numerous ways they could.

- Add UI elements to make weaving easier

- Make it optional playstyle through gear sets.

- Tutorialize LA weaving and other mechanics

Instead they leave it in the hands of their community. A community that tells players to solo dungeons if they want to do story. A community that tell players to get gud when they struggle. A community that effectively calls bad dps fakes. I’m sorry. The community was never up to that task and it’s a complete failure on ZOS for thinking the community could solve it.

What level of content are you defining as your pre-defined average?

I'd say the vast majority of PUGS are able to complete normal content. In fact, the last time I remember a storm of complaints about lots of players being unable to complete dungeons, it was when level 10 players regularly got put in White Gold Tower or Imperial City Prison.

Now, that was a case where ZOS realized that the average level 10 player was not able to reliably compete White Gold Tower or Imperial City Prison without a lot of help, and so they sensibly changed the Groupfinder so that players didn't get those dungeons before level 45.

You should also know that ZOS does go back and adjust their DLC dungeons. Usually about a year later, we see them nerf places where groups frequently fail to make them more accessible to the average player who's doing those dungeons. Do note that caveat: the average player doing those dungeons. Not everyone wants to do DLC dungeons - and if they don't, they can't expect ZOS to rebalance content for them that they don't do.

I agree with you that the Devs can and should tutorialize more elements. I'm not sure that most players aren't capable of doing the content they want to do. Complaint threads make a lot of fuss on the forums, but it's rare for me to see PUG DPS so bad as to be worth remembering in normal dungeons. Most groups are capable enough to complete the dungeons.

I specifically state that players that hit 5-10k are only really limited to overland activities. Now while most PUGs won’t struggle because they’re in a group. However, if you enjoy doing story, your sol when you run dungeons. So they are limited to overland because story = solo or premade to Most players hitting that low aren’t going to have people unless they remove

I'm not sure it is intended but you are giving the appearance of being an elitist. This comment makes me believe that you are trying to consign lower skill players to open world only and that they don't deserve to run group content.

I don't know what my in dungeon DPS is, nor do I care, other than it is enough to hold my own in a group for normal level instances and to be able to solo a number of the base game normal dungeons. When I PUG or run content with a preformed group I don't care if there are other players who cannot get high DPS as it is a group effort. In fact in my old guild we regularly put together runs for lower level and lower skill players to be sure they had opportunities to not only run the quests but farm gear too. None of us would have considered, nor do I today, that they should be prevented from joining groups or participating in group content. It has always been my opinion that normal level content is intended to be played by all those who wish to give it a try. If some players disagree with that they can always make their own groups with their own rules or run higher level content where they won't have to contend with less skilled players.

Maybe it’s wording. What I’m saying is players that hitting 5-10k aren’t able to solo dungeons. Now, that is by design. However, that completely clashes with the community in that 98% of PUGs will either ignore your request to do/experience story or groups will be helpful in the way of picking up quests for you but skip any and all dialogue. Hence, those are basically forced to try and solo or come with a Premade. Which by far and large those players are locked out of those options. Hence, they are stuck in doing overland.

Auztinito · November 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

It’s punishes players that wish to play the way they want.

Part of getting good at any game is not just doing any random thing you feel like doing, but actually taking the time to learn how things work.

I do agree the game could do more to teach people to play it. But people who don't want to learn aren't going to use that regardless because that is a player goal issue NOT a game design issue. Even games that teach people better have a skill curve, and the people at the bottom for reasons they can help are generally speaking the ones who do whatever random thing they feel like doing for fun without regards to it's impact on their success or lack thereof.

The story content is more than enough for that kind of player. If you want more, don't just do random stuff and actually try.

It's actually not that hard to get mid-tier dps. It doesn't require trials sets or dlc dungeons. It doesn't require animation canceling, light attack weaving, and in some cases even bar swapping. It just requires an extremely basic rotation and desire to learn. Just tossing down some damage over time and heavy attacking for example can get you there. The game does not ask a lot to get people mid tier.

It is a game design issue if your average player base is not meeting the “pre-determined” average of the game.

For example, in FPS. What is usually average skill? 1.0 KD, right? What happens if more than half your players fail to meet that? As a game designer, that’s your job to figure out and fix. Understanding player behavior and psychology is a backbone to game design. Your job is to get players to meet that average whether you make it easier to achieve through matchmaking systems or giving advanced/more in depth tutorials.

The designers for this game basically like you think they can’t do anything to fix it when there are numerous ways they could.

- Add UI elements to make weaving easier

- Make it optional playstyle through gear sets.

- Tutorialize LA weaving and other mechanics

Instead they leave it in the hands of their community. A community that tells players to solo dungeons if they want to do story. A community that tell players to get gud when they struggle. A community that effectively calls bad dps fakes. I’m sorry. The community was never up to that task and it’s a complete failure on ZOS for thinking the community could solve it.

What level of content are you defining as your pre-defined average?

I'd say the vast majority of PUGS are able to complete normal content. In fact, the last time I remember a storm of complaints about lots of players being unable to complete dungeons, it was when level 10 players regularly got put in White Gold Tower or Imperial City Prison.

Now, that was a case where ZOS realized that the average level 10 player was not able to reliably compete White Gold Tower or Imperial City Prison without a lot of help, and so they sensibly changed the Groupfinder so that players didn't get those dungeons before level 45.

You should also know that ZOS does go back and adjust their DLC dungeons. Usually about a year later, we see them nerf places where groups frequently fail to make them more accessible to the average player who's doing those dungeons. Do note that caveat: the average player doing those dungeons. Not everyone wants to do DLC dungeons - and if they don't, they can't expect ZOS to rebalance content for them that they don't do.

I agree with you that the Devs can and should tutorialize more elements. I'm not sure that most players aren't capable of doing the content they want to do. Complaint threads make a lot of fuss on the forums, but it's rare for me to see PUG DPS so bad as to be worth remembering in normal dungeons. Most groups are capable enough to complete the dungeons.

I specifically state that players that hit 5-10k are only really limited to overland activities. Now while most PUGs won’t struggle because they’re in a group. However, if you enjoy doing story, your sol when you run dungeons. So they are limited to overland because story = solo or premade to Most players hitting that low aren’t going to have people unless they remove

I hate to say it, but you are dead wrong that players who do 5 to 10k DPS are limited to overland. I see plenty of them in Groupfinder and most of the time we do just fine in normal dungeons. DLC can be a pain, but it's not really a problem in base game dungeons as long as their team has a modicum of patience.

Maybe they are limited to doing overland solo, but group dungeons aren't intended to be done solo. They are intended to be done as a group, and specifically able to be PUGed by a random tank, healer, and two DDs. And normal dungeons are successfully PUGed all the time by players with 5-10k DPS.

I'm sorry, but you can't complain that 5-10k DPS won't allow you to solo content that isn't even intended to be soloed. Well, you can complain, but it doesn't really make sense to me. Most players doing 5-10k DPS play and complete normal dungeons as intended - in a group.

Dungeon Norm - Rush to final boss.

Someone needs quests - Pick up quests for them but skip all dialogue.

Players that are doing 5 -10k dps are not going to be able solo like most players tell them to do if they want to do story.

In short, the community is not conducive to low dps players that want to do story within dungeons.

Kwoung · November 2021

Auztinito wrote: »

In short, the community is not conducive to low dps players that want to do story within dungeons.

Well since they added transmutes to dungeons and a stickerbook, most folks goal is to simply get through a RND Normal on that char as quickly as possible, log in the next char and do it again... on 10+ chars in many cases. It is much like daily crafting writs, except this involves 3 other people in your daily grind, some or all of which have different motivations for being there. Prior to that, I believe most folks just ran one RND Normal a day, usually on an alt they were leveling (feel free to correct me if wrong). Also back then, the queues were considerably longer because of this, but there also wasn't such a proliferation of "fakes" in the queues trying to cut in line.

The old way was way more conducive to doing the story, as people were considerably more patient and those in the dungeon, were not necessarily just there to get through it as quickly as possible.

Yes, I understand folks have speed run dungeons for as long as it has been possible, but my point is it wasn't an everyday, every dungeon issue like it has recently become.