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Getting kicked from dungeons, misuse
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Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭just wait for companions to be released because folks are about to start being kicked only to be replaced by an NPC
If they allow people to queue for the random with companions, I dont think it'll be an issue. We will see.VaranisArano wrote: »The game has no way to distinguish between:
- kicking a player for low level
- kicking a player for being unable to fulfill their role
- kicking a player for being unwilling to fulfill their role
- kicking a player for rushing ahead or for being too slow
- kicking an AFK player
- kicking an abusive player
- kicking a player in revenge for not going along with a vote kick
How do you suggest ZOS adjust the ability to vote kick?
Only thing i can think of here is some sort of points system tied to DF( if you formed the group yourself you can kick whoever you please). Just as example:- Every time you initiate the vote to kick someone you gain 4 points
- Every time you approve a vote to kick someone you gain 2 points.
- Kicking people who are not online when the vote is initiated does not cost any points.
- If it will put you over 12 points, you can no longer initiate a vote kick.
- If it will put you over 12 points your vote for a kick is automatically no.
- Every hour you spend in a DF dungeon you lose 1 point off your total.
- The deserter penalty is reduced to 3 minutes after the first combat is initiated.
- When you leave a dungeon before the dungeon has been completed but after deserter, you are put in the top of queue. This can only occur once every 2 hours.
I would think that time spent in the queue waiting should count toward the tally.
I have a feeling that removing the penalty, even once per 2 hours, would encourage, or at least make it easier, to bail on a dungeon. On normals I cant see it making a huge difference. Outside of people being ass or offline I cant really see a reason for a kick. In vets, especially vet DLCs I think youd see people bail as soon as the group didnt have 100k dps.
If they completely removed the vote to kick, I doubt that I would PUG at all. It does have some times when it is legitimately useful, and warranted. This idea seems to punish those not abusing it the least.Edited by Agenericname on April 11, 2021 8:28PM0 -
renne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It's also entirely possible that the lowbie that was being voted to kick was actually an alt account of one of your teammates. I've seen people queue up with a low alt, ensuring that they get a quick & easy dungeon, then they kick the dummy to make room for a friend or whatever. Not sure how common this is, but I've seen it more than once now and I don't even run randoms that much anymore.
How does that get the person they've added a random? Because don't they have to come through the group finder for that?1 -
poodlemasterb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭secondrowforward wrote: »I highlighted this event to showcase this problem. I realise there may not be a cure. That is apart from getting rid of this tool, which I wouldn't be averse to. AFK players could be on a timer like Battlegrounds and then being automatically removed. Abusive players just need to be blocked. Then if you don't like what's going on, make your excuses and just leave. The ball is in your court and that's what I do.
I'll be 75 in a couple of months. I just solo the game. Its so much easier to not have to please anyone and I have my own ways of doing things. I have been here since the beta, so those ways are quite effective by now.2 -
Merlin13KAGL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
@VaranisArano a stat counter.VaranisArano wrote: »The game has no way to distinguish between:
- kicking a player for low level
- kicking a player for being unable to fulfill their role
- kicking a player for being unwilling to fulfill their role
- kicking a player for rushing ahead or for being too slow
- kicking an AFK player
- kicking an abusive player
- kicking a player in revenge for not going along with a vote kick
How do you suggest ZOS adjust the ability to vote kick?
Add a handful of "why" options, like you have mentioned above. When someone gets kicked for one of those reasons, the count increases.
When you come across someone with 100 "unwilling/unable" kicks out of 200 queues, it will give a pretty good indication.
On the other hand, legit players with 5 out of 200 of the same will likely point towards a group of trolls and be ignored.
The more you queue, the more the real result will shine through.
They could even take this a step further and after a certain percentage gets so high, ZoS gets notified, so they can officially do nothing vs the occasional reported do nothing.
EDIT: The kickee could have counter options too, pointing to people that kick without good reason on a regular basis.
Edited by Merlin13KAGL on April 11, 2021 10:36PMJust because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...
Earn it.
IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
VaranisArano a stat counter.VaranisArano wrote: »The game has no way to distinguish between:
- kicking a player for low level
- kicking a player for being unable to fulfill their role
- kicking a player for being unwilling to fulfill their role
- kicking a player for rushing ahead or for being too slow
- kicking an AFK player
- kicking an abusive player
- kicking a player in revenge for not going along with a vote kick
How do you suggest ZOS adjust the ability to vote kick?
Add a handful of "why" options, like you have mentioned above. When someone gets kicked for one of those reasons, the count increases.
When you come across someone with 100 "unwilling/unable" kicks out of 200 queues, it will give a pretty good indication.
On the other hand, legit players with 5 out of 200 of the same will likely point towards a group of trolls and be ignored.
The more you queue, the more the real result will shine through.
They could even take this a step further and after a certain percentage gets so high, ZoS gets notified, so they can officially do nothing vs the occasional reported do nothing.
EDIT: The kickee could have counter options too, pointing to people that kick without good reason on a regular basis.
Eh, I'm not sure I like a system that relies on players being accurate with their reasons for vote kicking. There have been instances where players keep someone at the last boss to bring in their friend...are those players going to tell the truth?
The "points" system suggested earlier at least has the viruses of being straightforward. You get a limited number of kicks, period, and you earn them back over time.2 -
cynicalbutterfly✭✭✭✭It's also entirely possible that the lowbie that was being voted to kick was actually an alt account of one of your teammates. I've seen people queue up with a low alt, ensuring that they get a quick & easy dungeon, then they kick the dummy to make room for a friend or whatever. Not sure how common this is, but I've seen it more than once now and I don't even run randoms that much anymore.
How does that get the person they've added a random? Because don't they have to come through the group finder for that?
They can add the person to group and then the person can port to them.0 -
GreenHere✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭cynicalbutterfly wrote: »It's also entirely possible that the lowbie that was being voted to kick was actually an alt account of one of your teammates. I've seen people queue up with a low alt, ensuring that they get a quick & easy dungeon, then they kick the dummy to make room for a friend or whatever. Not sure how common this is, but I've seen it more than once now and I don't even run randoms that much anymore.
How does that get the person they've added a random? Because don't they have to come through the group finder for that?
They can add the person to group and then the person can port to them.
I believe what @renne is asking is, "But the person joining their friend would not get the Random Daily bonuses after the dungeon has started... right?" to which I can only guess. But yeah, that's a good point. I wouldn't know for sure, since I've only been present when other people do it and never tried it myself. My guess is the joining friend doesn't know or care about the Random rewards, and just wants in on a quick run. Kinda wish I'd asked now.
Other times I've seen them just want to boot the alt acct. to make space for a true random; once they got their guaranteed easy dungeon, they don't much care who joins. This scenario makes more sense, since they only want the easy run for themselves and don't want their level 10 toon ranking up. But I have seen both cases more than once, so idk...
All I know is I've seen randoms ask, "Kick my alt account, please. Just wanted easy dungeon." or something along those lines. The lowbie they wanted kicked did appear to be totally AFK, and when people ask things politely in chat I tend to oblige. I wouldn't kick a lowbie who appeared to be playing unless there was a damn good reason, but I also don't have any real problem with people who're using alt accounts to bend the rules in their (our, if we're being honest) favor this way. I'll take 14 Fungal Grotto 1 runs in a row over March of Sacrifices even once in my daily randoms, given the choice.
I can see why people jump through hoops like this to make randoms less burdensome. But none of this really excuses what happened to OP, assuming we have the whole story. I was just trying to shed light on a particular scenario I've seen play out in PUGs on occasion, since it seemed like it might be relevant. Given how the thread has developed, my scenario is probably its own other thing, though.1 -
ThorianB✭✭✭✭✭
✭Agenericname wrote: »just wait for companions to be released because folks are about to start being kicked only to be replaced by an NPC
If they allow people to queue for the random with companions, I dont think it'll be an issue. We will see.VaranisArano wrote: »The game has no way to distinguish between:
- kicking a player for low level
- kicking a player for being unable to fulfill their role
- kicking a player for being unwilling to fulfill their role
- kicking a player for rushing ahead or for being too slow
- kicking an AFK player
- kicking an abusive player
- kicking a player in revenge for not going along with a vote kick
How do you suggest ZOS adjust the ability to vote kick?
Only thing i can think of here is some sort of points system tied to DF( if you formed the group yourself you can kick whoever you please). Just as example:- Every time you initiate the vote to kick someone you gain 4 points
- Every time you approve a vote to kick someone you gain 2 points.
- Kicking people who are not online when the vote is initiated does not cost any points.
- If it will put you over 12 points, you can no longer initiate a vote kick.
- If it will put you over 12 points your vote for a kick is automatically no.
- Every hour you spend in a DF dungeon you lose 1 point off your total.
- The deserter penalty is reduced to 3 minutes after the first combat is initiated.
- When you leave a dungeon before the dungeon has been completed but after deserter, you are put in the top of queue. This can only occur once every 2 hours.
I would think that time spent in the queue waiting should count toward the tally.
I have a feeling that removing the penalty, even once per 2 hours, would encourage, or at least make it easier, to bail on a dungeon. On normals I cant see it making a huge difference. Outside of people being ass or offline I cant really see a reason for a kick. In vets, especially vet DLCs I think youd see people bail as soon as the group didnt have 100k dps.
If they completely removed the vote to kick, I doubt that I would PUG at all. It does have some times when it is legitimately useful, and warranted. This idea seems to punish those not abusing it the least.
1. No on the waiting in queue. The idea is that kick happy people can only kick so much before the ability is temporarily removed from them. This is to get people to work together and if they don't like the group then they leave instead of kicking people until they get someone they want.
2. It was my intention to make it easier to bail on dungeons. So this is a freebie bail. I want players to choose to leave the dungeon and requeue which is the correct thing to do, instead of be toxic in the dungeon until they get their way. the goal here is to discourage toxicity and encourage you to be the one to leave if you are unhappy with your luck.
3. The point system is is designed so you use the vote kick when it really warrants it instead of as a personal group filtering tool. If you are picky about your groups don't use the DF, we don't need toxicity in DF because people are picky and demand artificial requirements of others.
4. ( General use "you" is used here)Very few people needed to be kicked out of dungeons from my experience running them. The ones that actually need kicked out are the ones that are actually the ones trying to kick others in most cases. If you constantly run across players who need to be kicked out because they are slow, or their DPS/level is to low, or they are spamming LA or one ability, or they die to many times....those players aren't the ones that needed kicked from group...you are. You are not compatible with DF and should not be using it. You are the one abusing it and you should be punished for misusing it.
I am perfectly ok with people not using the DF because they can't use the kick tool as a personal player filter. For every 1 toxic player this removes from DF, 5 more i actually want to run dungeons with will decide to queue.0 -
Veles✭✭✭✭
Most likely, at 75 years old, a person should understand that there are different people around us, everyone has their own quirks in their heads, and it is simply pointless to take unacceptable actions so close to your heart. There is an age limit in this game, but nevertheless there are many children, many adults with completely perverted moral principles, trolls and corny idiots.secondrowforward wrote: »But at 75 years old and 20 years in the military this will be water off a ducks back.
You were just out of luck. But They did you a favor, you tried to defend that level 19 player and showed your best human quality, for this action you were kicked. That lvl 19 were also kicked later, don't even hesitate. Do not feed the troll, especially do not worry about him. Restart the queue. You are wasting too much energy and emotion on them. : )
0 -
old_scopie1945✭✭✭✭✭poodlemasterb16_ESO wrote: »secondrowforward wrote: »I highlighted this event to showcase this problem. I realise there may not be a cure. That is apart from getting rid of this tool, which I wouldn't be averse to. AFK players could be on a timer like Battlegrounds and then being automatically removed. Abusive players just need to be blocked. Then if you don't like what's going on, make your excuses and just leave. The ball is in your court and that's what I do.
I'll be 75 in a couple of months. I just solo the game. Its so much easier to not have to please anyone and I have my own ways of doing things. I have been here since the beta, so those ways are quite effective by now.
Well done friend, we old 'uns have to stick together. My you keep adventuring for many years to come.
0 -
old_scopie1945✭✭✭✭✭
Most likely, at 75 years old, a person should understand that there are different people around us, everyone has their own quirks in their heads, and it is simply pointless to take unacceptable actions so close to your heart. There is an age limit in this game, but nevertheless there are many children, many adults with completely perverted moral principles, trolls and corny idiots.secondrowforward wrote: »But at 75 years old and 20 years in the military this will be water off a ducks back.
You were just out of luck. But They did you a favor, you tried to defend that level 19 player and showed your best human quality, for this action you were kicked. That lvl 19 were also kicked later, don't even hesitate. Do not feed the troll, especially do not worry about him. Restart the queue. You are wasting too much energy and emotion on them. : )
This post was nothing more than to highlight one of the problems with Dungeon Finder. Nothing less and nothing more.0 -
old_scopie1945✭✭✭✭✭It's also entirely possible that the lowbie that was being voted to kick was actually an alt account of one of your teammates. I've seen people queue up with a low alt, ensuring that they get a quick & easy dungeon, then they kick the dummy to make room for a friend or whatever. Not sure how common this is, but I've seen it more than once now and I don't even run randoms that much anymore.
How does that get the person they've added a random? Because don't they have to come through the group finder for that?
This earlier thread may be of interest to you.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/565666/is-having-an-afk-alternate-account-in-a-group-dungeon-against-tos#latest0 -
ccfeeling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The only solution prevent this case is run the dungeon via pre-made group .
You did nothing wrong , sad to say , but if you play PUG , you have to follow the PUG rules .2 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kicking anyone from FG1 is just silly.
I mean, the guy(s) initiating the kick really should be able to solo FG1 anyways, so what's the big deal?
Seriously, if i get pugged into a dungeon i can solo i don't care if i have to carry all 3 of my mates.
Been there, done that, would do it again.
Edited by SirAndy on April 12, 2021 1:29AM3 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I have only been playing ESO for the past couple of months so I do not have years of experience using the GF. However, in the past month, I have used the GF almost daily and have only seen the vote to kick used once.
That was what the forums seem to call a fake tank though it seems they were really kicked for being a jerk to one of the players after that player replied to my comment to "tell the boss I am not a tank". So in short, the vote to kick serves a valid purpose as it does in other MMORPGs I have played. It is needed to remove players who are rude and obnoxious and probably good for removing these fake tanks as well.
While I am certain there are isolated incidents of abuse in every game that has such a group finder I have yet to see this abused on any significant scale. One incident here and another there should not be cause for alarm by those who manage this game.
As mentioned, I am a noob here but not in MMORPGs.0 -
Darkstorne wrote: »I initiate a vote to kick fake tanks in vet dungeons at the final boss.
I heal with my characters, and feel awful for the two genuine DPS who have waited patiently for their role, putting up with the third DPS who thought he was important enough to jump the queue. I deliberately wait until we're near the end of the dungeon to waste as much of their time as possible, since they've shown they're fine wasting our time (vet dungeons without taunts and pulls are not faster). Doesn't always get approved by the group, but I love karma kicking them in the nuts when it does.
Wow... this is petty, spiteful, mean-spirited, and just unnecessary!
I whole-heartedly approve!
Rude fake tanks should be shot out of a trebuchet into slaughterfish water!
I second this. I would never think of doing this to anyone, but fake tanks in DLC dungeons. Sorry, not sorry!1 -
Merlin13KAGL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
@VaranisArano I guess I didn't fully qualify.VaranisArano wrote: »Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
VaranisArano a stat counter.VaranisArano wrote: »The game has no way to distinguish between:
- kicking a player for low level
- kicking a player for being unable to fulfill their role
- kicking a player for being unwilling to fulfill their role
- kicking a player for rushing ahead or for being too slow
- kicking an AFK player
- kicking an abusive player
- kicking a player in revenge for not going along with a vote kick
How do you suggest ZOS adjust the ability to vote kick?
Add a handful of "why" options, like you have mentioned above. When someone gets kicked for one of those reasons, the count increases.
When you come across someone with 100 "unwilling/unable" kicks out of 200 queues, it will give a pretty good indication.
On the other hand, legit players with 5 out of 200 of the same will likely point towards a group of trolls and be ignored.
The more you queue, the more the real result will shine through.
They could even take this a step further and after a certain percentage gets so high, ZoS gets notified, so they can officially do nothing vs the occasional reported do nothing.
EDIT: The kickee could have counter options too, pointing to people that kick without good reason on a regular basis.
Eh, I'm not sure I like a system that relies on players being accurate with their reasons for vote kicking. There have been instances where players keep someone at the last boss to bring in their friend...are those players going to tell the truth?
The "points" system suggested earlier at least has the viruses of being straightforward. You get a limited number of kicks, period, and you earn them back over time.
I'm thinking of the counts above in relation to total number of runs, including those where you didn't get kicked.
Going that way, you'd still have some troll points from time to time, but overall, if you're doing your role even semi-successfully, the combined average would indicate so.
It would give people a better idea of your history and whether they could potentially expect problems. It will still be up to them how they handled it.
I'm not going to take any notice to someone with Role X that has 100 'good' runs and 1 kick, for any reason, vs someone with the opposite. Of course people could game the system, but you could be limited in your ability to 'rate' someone say once per day. I suspect the resulting average would be pretty accurate.
Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...
Earn it.
IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS0 -
renne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭cynicalbutterfly wrote: »It's also entirely possible that the lowbie that was being voted to kick was actually an alt account of one of your teammates. I've seen people queue up with a low alt, ensuring that they get a quick & easy dungeon, then they kick the dummy to make room for a friend or whatever. Not sure how common this is, but I've seen it more than once now and I don't even run randoms that much anymore.
How does that get the person they've added a random? Because don't they have to come through the group finder for that?
They can add the person to group and then the person can port to them.
I believe what @renne is asking is, "But the person joining their friend would not get the Random Daily bonuses after the dungeon has started... right?" to which I can only guess. But yeah, that's a good point. I wouldn't know for sure, since I've only been present when other people do it and never tried it myself. My guess is the joining friend doesn't know or care about the Random rewards, and just wants in on a quick run. Kinda wish I'd asked now.
Other times I've seen them just want to boot the alt acct. to make space for a true random; once they got their guaranteed easy dungeon, they don't much care who joins. This scenario makes more sense, since they only want the easy run for themselves and don't want their level 10 toon ranking up. But I have seen both cases more than once, so idk...
All I know is I've seen randoms ask, "Kick my alt account, please. Just wanted easy dungeon." or something along those lines. The lowbie they wanted kicked did appear to be totally AFK, and when people ask things politely in chat I tend to oblige. I wouldn't kick a lowbie who appeared to be playing unless there was a damn good reason, but I also don't have any real problem with people who're using alt accounts to bend the rules in their (our, if we're being honest) favor this way. I'll take 14 Fungal Grotto 1 runs in a row over March of Sacrifices even once in my daily randoms, given the choice.
I can see why people jump through hoops like this to make randoms less burdensome. But none of this really excuses what happened to OP, assuming we have the whole story. I was just trying to shed light on a particular scenario I've seen play out in PUGs on occasion, since it seemed like it might be relevant. Given how the thread has developed, my scenario is probably its own other thing, though.
Yeah, that's what I was asking, because all theyd get is a FG1 complete, they wouldn't get the random normal reward because they're not queued into the dungeon through the group finder.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
@VaranisArano I guess I didn't fully qualify.VaranisArano wrote: »Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
VaranisArano a stat counter.VaranisArano wrote: »The game has no way to distinguish between:
- kicking a player for low level
- kicking a player for being unable to fulfill their role
- kicking a player for being unwilling to fulfill their role
- kicking a player for rushing ahead or for being too slow
- kicking an AFK player
- kicking an abusive player
- kicking a player in revenge for not going along with a vote kick
How do you suggest ZOS adjust the ability to vote kick?
Add a handful of "why" options, like you have mentioned above. When someone gets kicked for one of those reasons, the count increases.
When you come across someone with 100 "unwilling/unable" kicks out of 200 queues, it will give a pretty good indication.
On the other hand, legit players with 5 out of 200 of the same will likely point towards a group of trolls and be ignored.
The more you queue, the more the real result will shine through.
They could even take this a step further and after a certain percentage gets so high, ZoS gets notified, so they can officially do nothing vs the occasional reported do nothing.
EDIT: The kickee could have counter options too, pointing to people that kick without good reason on a regular basis.
Eh, I'm not sure I like a system that relies on players being accurate with their reasons for vote kicking. There have been instances where players keep someone at the last boss to bring in their friend...are those players going to tell the truth?
The "points" system suggested earlier at least has the viruses of being straightforward. You get a limited number of kicks, period, and you earn them back over time.
I'm thinking of the counts above in relation to total number of runs, including those where you didn't get kicked.
Going that way, you'd still have some troll points from time to time, but overall, if you're doing your role even semi-successfully, the combined average would indicate so.
It would give people a better idea of your history and whether they could potentially expect problems. It will still be up to them how they handled it.
I'm not going to take any notice to someone with Role X that has 100 'good' runs and 1 kick, for any reason, vs someone with the opposite. Of course people could game the system, but you could be limited in your ability to 'rate' someone say once per day. I suspect the resulting average would be pretty accurate.
That would help with people who run dungeons a lot, but it would hurt new players who are just starting dungeons if they end up with groupmates who are kicking for low level (but who may not say that's the reason) or who don't want to deal with someone learning the dungeon. That's be more likely to end up with a higher percentage of kicks to runs in the beginning - and there's no guarantee the given reasons for those kicks would be accurate.
I didn't start running random dungeons until after I had Champion points, so this isn't entirely about new, low level players or players on low level alts. Players start running random dungeons at all levels, and some of the old commentary about "How do you get to CP 810 and still stink at your role?" could get fairly toxic - and some of that was targeted at players who weren't just unable/unwilling to do their role. It was that they were new to dungeons and were still learning because they hadn't followed the exact progression ZOS expects. Higher CP dungeon newbies already have to cope with being placed in any dungeon, so again, they'd be more likely to accumulate a higher ratio of kicks to runs in the beginning.
Limiting it to one ranking a day is helpful on one level, but not helpful in terms of generating the stats side of the system that provides feedback to ZOS. If you want the stats to go to ZOS, then each kick needs a ranking choice to say why. Otherwise, it's just the same as now where ZOS can track how many times people get kicked, but no reasons are given.
I ran dungeons with my IRL friends for months before I got confident enough to run with random. Not everyone can do that.
Frankly, I like the system even less now that I've thought about it from the perspective of a new player just starting dungeons, and thus most likely to get kicked for being low level, perceived as being slow or a hindrance to the group for wanting to do the quest, or unable rather than unwilling to fulfill their role. Normally, it gets better over time as the new player levels and runs with enough reasonable groups that they get experience. Under your system, those stats follow them.
Too many people who get a random group from the Groupfinder have ridiculously high expectations for their groupmates for me to be comfortable with this idea in which players accumulate a stat based primarily on the rankings of the people who kicked them.Edited by VaranisArano on April 12, 2021 1:12PM0 -
Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well I had a level 26 nightblade archer tank in veteran moonhunter keep...I explained that it wasn't going to be possible for this person and proposed a vote kick to my group (normal reaction right?), but apparently some people bring people they know into these dungeons and refuse the kick....so you sit and suffer or quit on cool down because they want to have a chuckle....so.....hmmm..0 -
Septimus_Magna✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Its unfortunate that most players blindly agree when a vote to kick is initiated, if everyone takes a moment to consider who is being kicked for what reason the system would probably work the majority of the time.
I am not saying its the level 19's fault but it was pretty stupid to agree to kick you (a CP1200 player) for no apparent reason.
In a better world the group recognized that one unpleasant player was trying to kick people and he was removed from the group.PC - EU (AD)Septimus Mezar - Altmer Sorcerer
Septimus Rulanir - Orsimer Templar
Septimus Desmoru - Khajiit Necromancer
Septimus Iroh - Dunmer Dragon Knight
Septimus Thragar - Dunmer Nightblade
Septimus Jah'zar - Khajiit Nightblade
Septimus Nerox - Redguard Warden
Septimus Ozurk - Orsimer Sorcerer0 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
@VaranisArano I guess I didn't fully qualify.VaranisArano wrote: »Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
VaranisArano a stat counter.VaranisArano wrote: »The game has no way to distinguish between:
- kicking a player for low level
- kicking a player for being unable to fulfill their role
- kicking a player for being unwilling to fulfill their role
- kicking a player for rushing ahead or for being too slow
- kicking an AFK player
- kicking an abusive player
- kicking a player in revenge for not going along with a vote kick
How do you suggest ZOS adjust the ability to vote kick?
Add a handful of "why" options, like you have mentioned above. When someone gets kicked for one of those reasons, the count increases.
When you come across someone with 100 "unwilling/unable" kicks out of 200 queues, it will give a pretty good indication.
On the other hand, legit players with 5 out of 200 of the same will likely point towards a group of trolls and be ignored.
The more you queue, the more the real result will shine through.
They could even take this a step further and after a certain percentage gets so high, ZoS gets notified, so they can officially do nothing vs the occasional reported do nothing.
EDIT: The kickee could have counter options too, pointing to people that kick without good reason on a regular basis.
Eh, I'm not sure I like a system that relies on players being accurate with their reasons for vote kicking. There have been instances where players keep someone at the last boss to bring in their friend...are those players going to tell the truth?
The "points" system suggested earlier at least has the viruses of being straightforward. You get a limited number of kicks, period, and you earn them back over time.
I'm thinking of the counts above in relation to total number of runs, including those where you didn't get kicked.
Going that way, you'd still have some troll points from time to time, but overall, if you're doing your role even semi-successfully, the combined average would indicate so.
It would give people a better idea of your history and whether they could potentially expect problems. It will still be up to them how they handled it.
I'm not going to take any notice to someone with Role X that has 100 'good' runs and 1 kick, for any reason, vs someone with the opposite. Of course people could game the system, but you could be limited in your ability to 'rate' someone say once per day. I suspect the resulting average would be pretty accurate.
That would help with people who run dungeons a lot, but it would hurt new players who are just starting dungeons if they end up with groupmates who are kicking for low level (but who may not say that's the reason) or who don't want to deal with someone learning the dungeon. That's be more likely to end up with a higher percentage of kicks to runs in the beginning - and there's no guarantee the given reasons for those kicks would be accurate.
I didn't start running random dungeons until after I had Champion points, so this isn't entirely about new, low level players or players on low level alts. Players start running random dungeons at all levels, and some of the old commentary about "How do you get to CP 810 and still stink at your role?" could get fairly toxic - and some of that was targeted at players who weren't just unable/unwilling to do their role. It was that they were new to dungeons and were still learning because they hadn't followed the exact progression ZOS expects. Higher CP dungeon newbies already have to cope with being placed in any dungeon, so again, they'd be more likely to accumulate a higher ratio of kicks to runs in the beginning.
Limiting it to one ranking a day is helpful on one level, but not helpful in terms of generating the stats side of the system that provides feedback to ZOS. If you want the stats to go to ZOS, then each kick needs a ranking choice to say why. Otherwise, it's just the same as now where ZOS can track how many times people get kicked, but no reasons are given.
I ran dungeons with my IRL friends for months before I got confident enough to run with random. Not everyone can do that.
Frankly, I like the system even less now that I've thought about it from the perspective of a new player just starting dungeons, and thus most likely to get kicked for being low level, perceived as being slow or a hindrance to the group for wanting to do the quest, or unable rather than unwilling to fulfill their role. Normally, it gets better over time as the new player levels and runs with enough reasonable groups that they get experience. Under your system, those stats follow them.
Too many people who get a random group from the Groupfinder have ridiculously high expectations for their groupmates for me to be comfortable with this idea in which players accumulate a stat based primarily on the rankings of the people who kicked them.
I do not disagree at all. The bolded statement I believe is in part (certainly not 100%) is as bad as it is right now because of the CP change and the transmute system. We basically have a transmute/XP farm in the same content that people are meant to learn the dungeons in. A lot of folks, whether warranted or not, feel the need to grind XP as quickly as possible and its an efficient way to do it. Those players are mixed with newer players, or new to dungeons and its two very conflicting expectations.
To have any meaningful impact I believe that they will have to change that first, or least add a way to bypass some of it. Companions may help, but unless they can be assigned a position in the queue, it may actually make it worse. I feel like we dont know enough about that yet to say for sure, so I may feel slightly different about this all if we can queue for a RND with our companions when they get here.
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renne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Well I had a level 26 nightblade archer tank in veteran moonhunter keep...I explained that it wasn't going to be possible for this person and proposed a vote kick to my group (normal reaction right?), but apparently some people bring people they know into these dungeons and refuse the kick....so you sit and suffer or quit on cool down because they want to have a chuckle....so.....hmmm..
How, though? They couldn't have queued into it on a level 26?1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭secondrowforward wrote: »Yesterday I was using the 'Looking for Dungeon' tool with my DPS character to get my daily 10 crystals. I landed in Fungal Grotto 1, which, as most of you know is not a hard dungeon and can be done solo with little problem. I am over CP 1200, there were two players mid level and one level 19. Within 30 seconds there was a notification to kick the level 19 player. I am inclined not to kick players without a very valid reason, so I answered no. Within a couple of minutes I found myself being kicked from the game. No doubt this was in revenge for me not kicking the first player, who no doubt didn't know he/she was the first target. I feel this so called kicking tool is over used by players who, in my opinion, have an overinflated opinion of themselves. In my opinion it should be adjusted to prevent this kind of misuse. I only kick people who are afk or abusive in chat, otherwise I will leave the game if the dungeon can't be completed with that team. No doubt I will get a lot of flak for this post. But at 75 years old and 20 years in the military this will be water off a ducks back.
The irony is I think the level 19 you protected voted to kick you... because doesn't it take 3 votes to kick? You know what they say, no good deed goes unpunished.
Anyway, I agree with you. The kick mechanism is abused all the time in this game. I've even been in troll groups of 3 friends who get their kicks (no pun intended) throwing people out of groups. It's one of the very few things I'll report players for. Honestly I think they should just remove it as it does more harm than good IMHO.
Edited by Jeremy on April 12, 2021 10:19PM1 -
Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭There should be a 5 minute progression block for initiating a player kick. You want to boot someone, well now invisible walls go up and you have to wait 5 minutes to move on through the dungeon. If you initiate a kick then bail, you have a hour or two cooldown before being able to queue up again (to avoid trolling). I think that would make most people think twice before booting someone instead of helping them... the player would really have to be that bad to justify booting them, and not just some random trolls idea of what's best.0 -
BlossomDead✭✭✭✭✭Replying to this thread as I don't want to create a new one. I've just been kicked out after waiting for a normal Blackheart Haven Dungeon (Undaunted pledge) on my toon which is a Stamina Dragonknight DD, 509CP, fully decked in yellow gear from an online guide.
Everyone was higher CP than me, even though the tank almost died to the basic monsters in the beginning if it weren't for my healing (CP > 1k).
This wasted 30 minutes of my life - with no posibility of refund - for no reason other than that one of those players decided I shouldn't be playing the game which isn't fair at all since I did not specifically chose to play with any of them, I was forced to do so. The other ones probably agreed due to inertia.
An easier to implement improvement would be, IMHO, an interface/process update:- player initiating the kick should be known to everyone
- player initiating the kick needs to provide a reason that will be shown to everyone: not pre-selectable, needs to be typed in
- display a default message that beginners shouldn't be kicked just because they are beginners along with the kick reason
- allow players to decide over a 5 minute cooldown (they can press whatever buttons up until the timer expires) - during this time the chat can be used to clear out misunderstandings
- make the group details accesible at a glance in the UI: CP/LVL & role next to their name; It took me months to get used to open the various tabs in the UI/install add-ons for instance, so that Group info is sometimes buried.
Will this get rid of all trolls? No. But it might save everyone some valuable time which we aren't getting back by using simple tools:- accountability - you won't be trolling from the shadows;
- a time penalty (5 min) which will make you think twice about wasting some more time;
- information accesibility - information is power and will help people make more informed/fairer decisions (hopefully).
Of course this could be improved upon with some AI & allowing people to report abusive kick initiators.Edited by BlossomDead on November 8, 2021 2:58AM2 -
JJOtterBear✭✭✭✭secondrowforward wrote: »Yesterday I was using the 'Looking for Dungeon' tool with my DPS character to get my daily 10 crystals. I landed in Fungal Grotto 1, which, as most of you know is not a hard dungeon and can be done solo with little problem. I am over CP 1200, there were two players mid level and one level 19. Within 30 seconds there was a notification to kick the level 19 player. I am inclined not to kick players without a very valid reason, so I answered no. Within a couple of minutes I found myself being kicked from the game. No doubt this was in revenge for me not kicking the first player, who no doubt didn't know he/she was the first target. I feel this so called kicking tool is over used by players who, in my opinion, have an overinflated opinion of themselves. In my opinion it should be adjusted to prevent this kind of misuse. I only kick people who are afk or abusive in chat, otherwise I will leave the game if the dungeon can't be completed with that team. No doubt I will get a lot of flak for this post. But at 75 years old and 20 years in the military this will be water off a ducks back.
you sir, are a good guy. I never vote for kicking unless the person is afk and is clearly not coming back. otherwise, i always vote no. Even players that aren't good at the dungeons are trying to get better and just have a good time. i'm not gonna take that away from them, you know?Edited by JJOtterBear on November 8, 2021 2:41AM2 -
Araneae6537✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭secondrowforward wrote: »Yesterday I was using the 'Looking for Dungeon' tool with my DPS character to get my daily 10 crystals. I landed in Fungal Grotto 1, which, as most of you know is not a hard dungeon and can be done solo with little problem. I am over CP 1200, there were two players mid level and one level 19. Within 30 seconds there was a notification to kick the level 19 player. I am inclined not to kick players without a very valid reason, so I answered no. Within a couple of minutes I found myself being kicked from the game. No doubt this was in revenge for me not kicking the first player, who no doubt didn't know he/she was the first target. I feel this so called kicking tool is over used by players who, in my opinion, have an overinflated opinion of themselves. In my opinion it should be adjusted to prevent this kind of misuse. I only kick people who are afk or abusive in chat, otherwise I will leave the game if the dungeon can't be completed with that team. No doubt I will get a lot of flak for this post. But at 75 years old and 20 years in the military this will be water off a ducks back.
Wow, that’s terrible! I increasingly think that some of the worst players queue for random normals, those who with absolutely no consideration for others and will do whatever they can to meet their objective at anyone’s expense.
Thankfully, I haven’t seen anything worse than people being super quick to vote to kick someone who’s dropped offline but they’re usually cool with it when I suggest that we wait a few minutes first before looking for a replacement.
I only vote to kick if someone is being totally disrespectful and will generally leave of my own accord then if it does not pass. It’s crap that the vote to kick you passed as that means there was more than one jerk in the group. Better off not running with them but I hate that that might be some players introduction to dungeons!
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kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭secondrowforward wrote: »Yesterday I was using the 'Looking for Dungeon' tool with my DPS character to get my daily 10 crystals. I landed in Fungal Grotto 1, which, as most of you know is not a hard dungeon and can be done solo with little problem. I am over CP 1200, there were two players mid level and one level 19. Within 30 seconds there was a notification to kick the level 19 player. I am inclined not to kick players without a very valid reason, so I answered no. Within a couple of minutes I found myself being kicked from the game. No doubt this was in revenge for me not kicking the first player, who no doubt didn't know he/she was the first target. I feel this so called kicking tool is over used by players who, in my opinion, have an overinflated opinion of themselves. In my opinion it should be adjusted to prevent this kind of misuse. I only kick people who are afk or abusive in chat, otherwise I will leave the game if the dungeon can't be completed with that team. No doubt I will get a lot of flak for this post. But at 75 years old and 20 years in the military this will be water off a ducks back.
I would guess that in this particular scenario, they wanted to add a friend to the group so they were just clearing a spot. Just a guess.
In that case you could group ahead of time and still use the random queue. The sad thing is the level 19 player is the reason they got the easy dungeon. A higher level player would have given them a better chance of getting something harder.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."1 -
Onyx_Werewolf_Gnome✭✭✭✭And this is why I maintain that Fungal Grotto I normal should be just turned into a trial. And lvl 50 should be a minimum requirement for entry. No way four people can clear this place.0