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Is stam getting short-changed with hybridization?
CleymenZero
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With magicka being able to use Kinras, AY, and Tzogvin, what has stam gained in terms of sets to make up for that.
Stam had a slight advantage in terms of sets and that's what made them competitive DPS-wise but with mag getting the best stam sets, what's left for stam?
Stam had a slight advantage in terms of sets and that's what made them competitive DPS-wise but with mag getting the best stam sets, what's left for stam?
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Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭bah-sei i guess? Medusa?
Mag sets have been lagging behind stam for quite a while now as the combat team have been balancing stam for PvP and mag for PvE and trying to use sets like rele to make up the difference.
Thankfully I think with the sets normalised and available to everyone the 2 "metas" can be properly balanced.5 -
CleymenZero✭✭✭✭✭
✭Medusa is less crit than tzogvin and not active on backbar like tzogvin. Bahsei is unusable.
Stam sets have been carrying stam because of pvp balancing like you've said so mag getting stam sets cancels that necessary set advantage stam needed to be competitive.4 -
oterWitz✭✭✭✭How is Bahsei's unusable? Work 1-2 mag dump skills into your rotation and it's a free damage boost. Plus some extra pen if you wear body pieces.
Also, it's becoming increasingly fashionable to have a vMA staff backbar, though it's up to you if you consider that "hybrid" instead of "stam".PC NA5 -
ke.sardenb14_ESO✭✭✭Medusa's existance is effectived invalidated by tzogvin, granted most stam builds used beast trap anyway.
Now why bahsei is an issue is because is is no better then relequin and AY. It works and it could be strong, but nothing hits quite like either set.
I doubt that mag will use rele if 7 light is still meta, but it is not impossible to achieve.0 -
redspecter23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think with enough hybridization options added there won't be a "stam build" or a "mag build" anymore. You'll just have "dps templar" or "dps warden" and it will lean into one attribute slightly more than the other. The lines are starting to get blurred enough that making the easy distinction between them is getting harder and harder.
Is stam getting short-changed? Only if you consider the traditional stam/mag builds exclusively when moving forward. Both sides, stam and mag, will adjust and meet somewhere in the middle. If you can't get stam to perform as well as mag, the expectation may be that you shift slightly more into mag and play it that way instead.9 -
Jman100582✭✭✭✭redspecter23 wrote: »I think with enough hybridization options added there won't be a "stam build" or a "mag build" anymore. You'll just have "dps templar" or "dps warden" and it will lean into one attribute slightly more than the other. The lines are starting to get blurred enough that making the easy distinction between them is getting harder and harder.
Is stam getting short-changed? Only if you consider the traditional stam/mag builds exclusively when moving forward. Both sides, stam and mag, will adjust and meet somewhere in the middle. If you can't get stam to perform as well as mag, the expectation may be that you shift slightly more into mag and play it that way instead.
Well the thing that's going to stop that from happening is sustain and sources of major buffs like sorcery/brutality. The game was never really designed with hybrids in mind from its core, and its going to take a good year or two of not only set changes but class changes too to make good proper hybrid builds viable6 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Jman100582 wrote: »redspecter23 wrote: »I think with enough hybridization options added there won't be a "stam build" or a "mag build" anymore. You'll just have "dps templar" or "dps warden" and it will lean into one attribute slightly more than the other. The lines are starting to get blurred enough that making the easy distinction between them is getting harder and harder.
Is stam getting short-changed? Only if you consider the traditional stam/mag builds exclusively when moving forward. Both sides, stam and mag, will adjust and meet somewhere in the middle. If you can't get stam to perform as well as mag, the expectation may be that you shift slightly more into mag and play it that way instead.
Well the thing that's going to stop that from happening is sustain and sources of major buffs like sorcery/brutality. The game was never really designed with hybrids in mind from its core, and its going to take a good year or two of not only set changes but class changes too to make good proper hybrid builds viable
I don't know if I agree with that. Day One, you had attribute soft caps so your stats sort of leveled out. All weapons, including staves used weapon damage. I could be wrong, but there were very, very few stamina class skills. So it was kinda hybrid at release.4 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭the short list to kill off "mag vs stam" which i don't see as making it hybrid, i mean to allow people to use the morphs and skills that appeal to them- resource scaling is from the combination of both stats instead of one or the other. (max stam + max mag)
- jewellery damage enchants combined
- combine major/minor brutality / sorcery and savagery/prophecy the same way they did breach and fracture.
that's pretty much it i think.
you're still balancing max resource vs max health and resource regen vs resource drain.
you can keep it simple by focusing on one resource (max stat, regen food) or rely on double regen drinks and have a lower resource pool which will harm damage directly, or regen food for 1 stat and pots for the other. or skills for the buffs we currently get from pots and tri-pots for sustain.
whatever works for your build.
the current system has a bunch of arbitrary limitations and restrictions which are poorly explained by the game which is why the casual crowd do such terrible damage. they have a bunch of attributes into stam and some into mag, and a sprinkle of health and they are running that cool proc set like morkuldin (i mean, who doesn't like floating glowing swords?) with a lightning staff because zapping things is fun!0 -
EF321✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭CleymenZero wrote: »With magicka being able to use Kinras, AY, and Tzogvin, what has stam gained in terms of sets to make up for that.
Stam had a slight advantage in terms of sets and that's what made them competitive DPS-wise but with mag getting the best stam sets, what's left for stam?
I don't think magicka can get much use of AY given the proc conditions.1 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CleymenZero wrote: »With magicka being able to use Kinras, AY, and Tzogvin, what has stam gained in terms of sets to make up for that.
Stam had a slight advantage in terms of sets and that's what made them competitive DPS-wise but with mag getting the best stam sets, what's left for stam?
I don't think magicka can get much use of AY given the proc conditions.
light attacks with daggers proc it right?0 -
CleymenZero✭✭✭✭✭
✭How is Bahsei's unusable? Work 1-2 mag dump skills into your rotation and it's a free damage boost. Plus some extra pen if you wear body pieces.
Also, it's becoming increasingly fashionable to have a vMA staff backbar, though it's up to you if you consider that "hybrid" instead of "stam".
Have you tried parsing with Bahsei? I haven't been able to get to 90k in my few tries but have reached 107k+ with other pure stam setups. Meanwhile my magnecro buddy parsed a 113k with Kinras and Bahsei.
I'm talking about being competitive here not about what can work. I should've worded it differently, I should said "Bahsei is not competitive" instead of unusable.2 -
CleymenZero✭✭✭✭✭
✭redspecter23 wrote: »I think with enough hybridization options added there won't be a "stam build" or a "mag build" anymore. You'll just have "dps templar" or "dps warden" and it will lean into one attribute slightly more than the other. The lines are starting to get blurred enough that making the easy distinction between them is getting harder and harder.
Is stam getting short-changed? Only if you consider the traditional stam/mag builds exclusively when moving forward. Both sides, stam and mag, will adjust and meet somewhere in the middle. If you can't get stam to perform as well as mag, the expectation may be that you shift slightly more into mag and play it that way instead.
If you split your attributes between stam and mag, you're reducing your maximum potential so no, there will still Templar or Wardens who use stamina or magicka as their main ressource.1 -
CleymenZero✭✭✭✭✭
✭CleymenZero wrote: »With magicka being able to use Kinras, AY, and Tzogvin, what has stam gained in terms of sets to make up for that.
Stam had a slight advantage in terms of sets and that's what made them competitive DPS-wise but with mag getting the best stam sets, what's left for stam?
I don't think magicka can get much use of AY given the proc conditions.
light attacks with daggers proc it right?
They do proc AY yes. People don't always know all the facts before they post. It's ok.0 -
EF321✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭CleymenZero wrote: »CleymenZero wrote: »With magicka being able to use Kinras, AY, and Tzogvin, what has stam gained in terms of sets to make up for that.
Stam had a slight advantage in terms of sets and that's what made them competitive DPS-wise but with mag getting the best stam sets, what's left for stam?
I don't think magicka can get much use of AY given the proc conditions.
light attacks with daggers proc it right?
They do proc AY yes. People don't always know all the facts before they post. It's ok.
I do know the facts, but with daggers LA being your only source of proc you will accumulate stacks much slower than stam build would, not to mention that you are giving up ranged advantage of being magicka.
I mean, if you are talking dummy humping than whatever.6 -
ajkb78✭✭✭✭✭ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »Medusa's existance is effectived invalidated by tzogvin, granted most stam builds used beast trap anyway.
Now why bahsei is an issue is because is is no better then relequin and AY. It works and it could be strong, but nothing hits quite like either set.
I doubt that mag will use rele if 7 light is still meta, but it is not impossible to achieve.
7 light hasn't been meta since before the kilt... It's even less meta now, with 2 medium being pretty common. In any case, rele jewels and front bar would pair well with Bahsei for some magicka toons especially those that don't spend long on the back bar. As long as your weaving is on point
I'm kind of glad stam won't be carried by superior sets any more. It'll mean it becomes even more painfully obvious how far behind they are, and ZoS can start balancing them in earnest.4 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »Medusa's existance is effectived invalidated by tzogvin, granted most stam builds used beast trap anyway.
Now why bahsei is an issue is because is is no better then relequin and AY. It works and it could be strong, but nothing hits quite like either set.
I doubt that mag will use rele if 7 light is still meta, but it is not impossible to achieve.
7 light hasn't been meta since before the kilt... It's even less meta now, with 2 medium being pretty common. In any case, rele jewels and front bar would pair well with Bahsei for some magicka toons especially those that don't spend long on the back bar. As long as your weaving is on point
I'm kind of glad stam won't be carried by superior sets any more. It'll mean it becomes even more painfully obvious how far behind they are, and ZoS can start balancing them in earnest.
I thought stam was not desirable for end game, so how are they carried by superior sets? I've always heard the pve meta wa magicka.0 -
Styxius✭✭✭✭Having tested ONLY stamina dps on PTS and getting 107-113k per class, and seeing others who got 117k on several. There is 0 translation of mag sets that became worth it on stamina dps. This hybridization PURELY benefits magicka dps and not stamina DPS. Bahsei on paper sounds good but even on a build where I had maintained 10-20% max mag pool it was absolutely not worth it when compared to AY/Kinras/Pillar of Nirn. The hybridization just helped Mag by giving them Stam's sets.3 -
CleymenZero✭✭✭✭✭
✭ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »Medusa's existance is effectived invalidated by tzogvin, granted most stam builds used beast trap anyway.
Now why bahsei is an issue is because is is no better then relequin and AY. It works and it could be strong, but nothing hits quite like either set.
I doubt that mag will use rele if 7 light is still meta, but it is not impossible to achieve.
7 light hasn't been meta since before the kilt... It's even less meta now, with 2 medium being pretty common. In any case, rele jewels and front bar would pair well with Bahsei for some magicka toons especially those that don't spend long on the back bar. As long as your weaving is on point
I'm kind of glad stam won't be carried by superior sets any more. It'll mean it becomes even more painfully obvious how far behind they are, and ZoS can start balancing them in earnest.
I thought stam was not desirable for end game, so how are they carried by superior sets? I've always heard the pve meta wa magicka.
People don't bother digger deeper than what top guilds are playing and simply emulate.
I got Dawnbringer on stam twice, vSS is another trial to prog on stam effectively (1st GS had mostly if not all stam), I got 2 Gryphon Heart on stam and 2 Tick Tock Tormentors on stam as well.
Stam is more than viable in most if not all situations.3 -
CleymenZero✭✭✭✭✭
✭Having tested ONLY stamina dps on PTS and getting 107-113k per class, and seeing others who got 117k on several. There is 0 translation of mag sets that became worth it on stamina dps. This hybridization PURELY benefits magicka dps and not stamina DPS. Bahsei on paper sounds good but even on a build where I had maintained 10-20% max mag pool it was absolutely not worth it when compared to AY/Kinras/Pillar of Nirn. The hybridization just helped Mag by giving them Stam's sets.
Now, how do we get the dev's attention?0 -
kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think it will be better to think in terms of Melee vs Ranged or medium vs light armor going forward. The lines between magicka and stamina are really fuzzy at this point and I personally think that is ok.
The reason that a "Stamina" player might feel that this benefits magicka is because most light armor sets are poorly designed, or duplicates of medium armor sets. The 5 piece bonuses of Relequen, Advancing Yokeda, Tzogvin, (pre-nerf) Deadly Strike, Kinras, and others would immediately become "best in slot" for a magicka build if a light armor counterpart was introduced into the game. Bahsei and Siroria are powerful sets on a dummy, but are a PITA to use on actual content. I would prefer to use sets that don't require me to:
a: Stand in a small circle (Siroria)
b: Fully Charged Heavy Attack (Roaring Opportunist et al)
c: Play a mini game to keep the set bonus active (Bahsei)
d: Use a class that I don't like (Elemental Catalyst)
So, the medium armor set bonuses are mostly great in those terms. They are either based on light attacks or crit damage, or in general something that you should be doing anyway, not forcing you to change the way you want to play to keep a set bonus active.
I for one am actually curious what will be the best combination after this patch. I'm sure some of the parsing pros of YouTube already know and are just waiting for the patch to go live before releasing a video on it, but I feel like there will be a few different options that will be viable depending on class, play-style, and ability to sustain the rotation.Playing since beta...5 -
SidraWillowsky✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭CleymenZero wrote: »CleymenZero wrote: »With magicka being able to use Kinras, AY, and Tzogvin, what has stam gained in terms of sets to make up for that.
Stam had a slight advantage in terms of sets and that's what made them competitive DPS-wise but with mag getting the best stam sets, what's left for stam?
I don't think magicka can get much use of AY given the proc conditions.
light attacks with daggers proc it right?
They do proc AY yes. People don't always know all the facts before they post. It's ok.
Oh please.... most mag players don't use daggers, nor do they want to.Edited by SidraWillowsky on October 11, 2021 3:37PM2 -
CleymenZero✭✭✭✭✭
✭SidraWillowsky wrote: »CleymenZero wrote: »CleymenZero wrote: »With magicka being able to use Kinras, AY, and Tzogvin, what has stam gained in terms of sets to make up for that.
Stam had a slight advantage in terms of sets and that's what made them competitive DPS-wise but with mag getting the best stam sets, what's left for stam?
I don't think magicka can get much use of AY given the proc conditions.
light attacks with daggers proc it right?
They do proc AY yes. People don't always know all the facts before they post. It's ok.
Oh please.... most mag players don't use daggers, nor do they want to.
Look at logs.1 -
notyuu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes, it is, becasue if you look at it in terms of ranged (magicka) vs melee (stamina) outside of PvP the upcomming update is gonna make stamina go from rare/hyper niche and barely used to literally moot compared to magicka0 -
Styxius✭✭✭✭CleymenZero wrote: »Having tested ONLY stamina dps on PTS and getting 107-113k per class, and seeing others who got 117k on several. There is 0 translation of mag sets that became worth it on stamina dps. This hybridization PURELY benefits magicka dps and not stamina DPS. Bahsei on paper sounds good but even on a build where I had maintained 10-20% max mag pool it was absolutely not worth it when compared to AY/Kinras/Pillar of Nirn. The hybridization just helped Mag by giving them Stam's sets.
Now, how do we get the dev's attention?
Who knows honestly, I wrote concerns regarding this when they started but it, unfortunately, doesn't seem to have either been in their interests. Or they were never told already.1 -
CaffeinatedMayhem✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭So, mag builds get better by using stam sets/skills and STAM is getting short changed?
Um, the fact that mag skills and sets SUCK so much that we get better using stam sets means MAG is shortchanged, and has been for some time.1 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »So, mag builds get better by using stam sets/skills and STAM is getting short changed?
Um, the fact that mag skills and sets SUCK so much that we get better using stam sets means MAG is shortchanged, and has been for some time.
As already stated, mag in PvE is meta for end game, Stam is niche. The only positive they had was better sets, without that, they've got nothing in comparison.
Mag has more synergies, more survivability, more dps from range, more aoe dps and now the stronger Stam sets too.3 -
CleymenZero✭✭✭✭✭
✭MashmalloMan wrote: »CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »So, mag builds get better by using stam sets/skills and STAM is getting short changed?
Um, the fact that mag skills and sets SUCK so much that we get better using stam sets means MAG is shortchanged, and has been for some time.
As already stated, mag in PvE is meta for end game, Stam is niche. The only positive they had was better sets, without that, they've got nothing in comparison.
Mag has more synergies, more survivability, more dps from range, more aoe dps and now the stronger Stam sets too.
Thank you, didn't feel liked explaining.1 -
CaffeinatedMayhem✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MashmalloMan wrote: »CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »So, mag builds get better by using stam sets/skills and STAM is getting short changed?
Um, the fact that mag skills and sets SUCK so much that we get better using stam sets means MAG is shortchanged, and has been for some time.
As already stated, mag in PvE is meta for end game, Stam is niche. The only positive they had was better sets, without that, they've got nothing in comparison.
Mag has more synergies, more survivability, more dps from range, more aoe dps and now the stronger Stam sets too.
Disagree. That's it. NO need to keep going.2 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The problem with balancing via sets is that you're backed into a corner.
You can't buff stamina skills without pushing stam over the top because of sets. Now that's no longer an issue.
Additionally mag builds that want to run stam sets will need to deal with the difficulties that come with that. Lower pen, lower crit chance, lower sustain. Want to run rele and tzogvin? ok cool, where is your pen and sustain coming from? Stam skills across the board are pretty much cheaper than mag, take away the light armour cost reduction and regen and you're in struggle town.
The highest parses i've done on PTS on my magsorc are still my live build.2