I prefer it if classes or builds in an mmo are balanced by giving each of them a situation where they can shine not by making them equal.
If every build is equal and the only difference is the colour of your animations and the name of your skills and attributs, then you can just remove all that, let everything scale of a single "power" stat and that way at least improve server performance.

The advantage of being a hybrid is you have access to a larger toolkit, basically twice the amount of spells.

The advantage of being a pure build is you perform better in whatever you specialize in.

If hybrids were to ever deal the same amount of dps as a pure, then pure builds would be 100% pointless.

Perhaps they could tie another stat to attributes. Like maybe for every point of stamina you get stamina recovery, and vice versa. That would at least allow a pure stamina build to sustain dodge rolls better then a hybrid, or a mag build to sustain wards more. Maybe health could be regen or armor.

BalticBlues wrote: »

On Hybrids, you can use two resource pools for damage.
If properly built, you will never run out of resources.
Because of this (and never needing to heavy attack),
the damage output per second needs to be somewhat lower.

I already build to never run out of resources. It's easier to do this with a single resource than using 2 because max resource + regen drink / food and medium / light armour passives which assist sustain for only 1 resource, meaning most builds will assist sustain for only 1 resource type.

Additionally most classes have a sustain mechanic which is focused on only 1 resource, dark deal / dark conversion for example.

"pure" builds have a far easier time of sustain compared to hybrids.

BalticBlues wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

I already build to never run out of resources.

Then your "Pure" damage is either low (like a "Hybrid") or you need buffs from others, like synergies.

Tannus15 wrote: »

"pure" builds have a far easier time of sustain compared to hybrids.

Sorry, but I think this is pure nonsense.

It's easier for raid groups to organise sustain if everyone is one resource, usually mag. you don't want 1 support running hircine and one running worm for example.
the list goes on.

if you don't want to run out of mag on a mag dps you run 7 light with ghastly eye bowl. that's how you get the most damage and the most sustain. running hybrids is how you lose dps AND sustain.
it's significantly harder to support it.

BalticBlues wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

It's easier for raid groups to organise sustain.

This is what I meant. Speaking of a raid group, a highly specialized setup,
you HAVE other people to buff you up and give you resources and synergies.
So you can go PURE with BEST Damage.

However, if you would use your Trial DD setup in solo PvP,
you would quickly run out of juice and die.
This is where HYBRIDS can shine the next patch,
not needing other players to buff them up and give them resources and synergies.

However, if Hybrids would have the same damage, why ever use Pure builds?
Pure builds are for BEST damage with HIGHEST risk.
Hybrid builds are for BEST resources and LOWEST risk.

firstly, i'm not talking about pvp at all. i'm talking about pve, and in pve land if i want to do solo or small group content without good group sustain just run false god or vicious ophidian. everything is geared towards making sustaining a single resource significantly easier than 2 resources.

you can't have 2 large resource pools which means you'll burn through them quickly, the only time you're going to get any sustain benefit from running a hybrid build is if you're running a set like willow's path or shacklebreaker, but with a single resource you can run something like lich and get the same level of benefit.

[PVE] We all pack behind the boss to launch 1 light attack and a skill every 1 second ... to do about 100k and dodge the mechanics.

No matter stam, mag or hybrid ... it is only cosmetic and in no way changes the unique gameplay of this game ... but if hybrid is not equal to pure, no reason to play it.

The real subject is to propser other equivalent gameplay with for example heavy attacks or skill which modifies the GCD.

[PVP] Not at all the same reasoning but I abstain because not sufficiently competent

katorga wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

The idea behind hybrids is to be more versatile by having access to certain skills pure builds don't.

The idea is the make the game even less punishing on casual players so that they are not totally hosed when mismatched skills, or gawd-forbid followed the "recommended morph" suggestions.

I meant the idea behind purposely building a hybrid with broad game knowledge. But yep, I ran a hybrid for a good while until I learned how the scaling works (long before the build advisor was a thing). Coming from the single player TES games it just felt natural to build that way.

EntropicLynx wrote: »

This is *not* zero-sum where improvements to Hybrids must automatically require impairments to Pure builds. You can leave Pure builds exactly as capable as they currently are, and elevate Hybrids to that same level to make them *equally viable*. Then everyone can play what *they want* to play, and this means that you could continue to play a Pure build if you want to and *not lose anything* for doing so.

Lynx

Well, that's a good interjection.
It begs the question how it could be assured with the current damage scaling?

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

The game is.... how old? Seven years? Up until this patch, hybrid builds weren't super strong. That means that we have seven years of content that was designed around the fairly all-or-nothing mag/stam builds. This near-complete redesign is going to be a disaster due of the way the game development revolves around these builds. Things were never set up to accommodate hybrid builds like this. IMO it's a terrible idea to do so now.

What exactly will break with the current changes?

BalticBlues wrote: »

The trial target dummy you are using to get 100k DPS is GIVING YOU BUFFS AND RESOURCES ALL OF THE TIME. If you really use this as a reference for never running out of resources in a PLAIN build, you are not honest, sorry.

As has been pointed out, playing PvE in a group and especially in a full Trials raid ensures that you have those same buffs. That's why they created that dummy in the first place... so that people could test their builds' potential with full Trials buffs against a Trials target in a controlled environment without having to try to find ways to force those buffs.

Additionally, you're getting caught up on the whole parse issue when my point was that those kinds of builds, namely the highest DPS builds (and remember, I also mentioned Trials leader boards) *always* build in a way to ensure that they *never* run out of resources when buffed. This is how you maximize DPS output. Losing resources kills DPS, so everybody that knows what they are doing builds their DPS *Pure* builds to never run out of resources when buffed.

Can such a build achieve 100k DPS in an actual Trial? Extremely rarely, but yes, it is possible (one of my guildmates hits 90k-100k *regularly* in Trials... it tends to irritate the rest of us DPS players in the guild because we feel inadequate, but that's an us problem, not a him problem). Nevertheless, builds designed to maximize either parsed DPS and/or "real" DPS will both always ensure that they *never* run out of resources when buffed; and in groups and especially Trials they are always buffed.

If you've been running out of resources when fully buffed (especially in a full Trials run) as a Pure build, then you've been less efficient at DPS output than you should have and could have been. Whether that is because you haven't managed your own sustain as you should or because your buffers haven't maintained their buffs as they should, would be entirely situational. I'm not saying it would always be your fault, I'm merely saying that when you're running out of resources (regardless of whose fault it is), then you are less effective and efficient at dealing damage than you should be.

Regardless of build type (Pure or Hybrid), the best way to maximize your DPS output through sustain is to ensure that *when you are fully buffed* you are *just barely* maintaining enough resources to always continue to use Abilities. This does *not* mean that your resource pools should always be close to empty, but rather that your recovery must closely match your expenditure. In other words, your total *buffed* resource recovery for each resource pool needs to be exactly enough per rotation to fully cover the costs of all of your Ability activations for that same rotation (or as close to it as you can get). Any more recovery is wasted because you aren't spending it, and any less is insufficient to maintain your damage output because you will eventually run out of resources, especially in a protracted battle such as a Trials Boss (the exception being Stamina recovery, which also needs to be high enough to cover the additional costs of Roll Dodge, Break Free, Block, and Bash, and Magicka for Block when using a Forst Staff).

BalticBlues wrote: »

I play Hybrids since release, this week exclusively on a Dragonknight to prepare for the next update. Resource management is always easier on a Hybrid, but damage is somewhat lower. This is how the game is supposed to work. Because you can't keep your full (damage) cake when you eat your primary damage resource cake (to create a second damage resource).

Yes, currently the damage for a Hybrid build is lower than for a Pure build. But only when *SOLO* do they gain a resource sustain advantage, and it is not a very high advantage even then. This is exactly why Hybrid builds are not viable in group dungeons and especially not in Trials... because you are sacrificing maximum DPS output in exchange for something you *don't need* because a full Pure build when buffed gets enough sustain to never run out of resources.

This is *exactly* why DPS for Hybrids should be increased... to make them viable in groups and Trials where they currently have a significant disadvantage!

Also, if you've been playing Hybrids since release, then you have not been contributing as much damage to your group's total damage output as you should be. If you disagree with that statement, then post us some links or images of your build(s) (stats, gear, abilities, etc.) along with your DPS output using that build while in a full group or Trial (preferably a vet Trial). In other words, *show us* how good your Hybrid build is.

BalticBlues wrote: »

Resources in ESO work like a muscle, similar as the muscle of a punch arm. The more resources you invest, the stronger the muscle and the punch arm gets. However, if you halve the resources of your punch arm to create a 2nd arm, you should not expect to have the same punch you had before. Of course it is great to have two arms for punching and being able to change arms if one arm gets tired. This way you can fight longer against a boss. But do not expect the same knockout power which you had before with only one super strong punch arm.

OK, that's a terrible analogy. It's perfectly possible to work out and strengthen both arms, and doing so does not diminish the strength of one arm vs. the other, but rather improves *both* at the same time. Boxers and martial artists do it *all the time*.

But ignoring the bad analogy... If you are suggesting that a build (whether Pure or Hybrid) should have to choose between either damage output or buffed sustain, then you're talking about a broader balance issue than just Pure builds vs. Hybrid builds. (Also, notably, it is possible to build a Pure build for really high resource sustain... but people never do it because it is inefficient when fully buffed in groups and Trials).

The only way to ensure such a balance would be to ensure that the *overall effectiveness* of any given build is roughly equivalent between Build A that focuses on damage vs. Build B that focuses on sustain. If Build A happens to be a Pure build while Build B happens to be a Hybrid build, that's fine, but the problem is that right now there is no such equivalence. In the current status quo of the game, Build A (focused on damage rather than sustain) is *considerably* more effective in groups and Trials than Build B. The fact that currently Build A is always a Pure build and that Hybrids are almost always closer to Build B than they are to Build A is exactly the issue that we're talking about here. The only way to create such equivalence is to either a) increase Hybrid builds' damage potential, or b) decrease Pure builds' buffed sustain. Personally, I'm not a fan of nerfs (most people aren't), and I'm fairly happy with where Pure build DPS output levels are for fully buffed groups and Trials. This means that the only other option to balance this specific issue is to increase the damage potential of Hybrids.

All of that is simplistic because there is an interplay between damage output and sustain, but the main point is that true balance for Hybrid builds requires that in one way or another they are made to be *equivalently effective* in groups and Trials when compared to Pure builds. This does not mean that they have to be *equal*, or that they have to be *the same*... merely that they must be *equivalent* or *comparable*. Right now they are *not* equivalently effective, and until this happens Hybrids will continue to not be viable. This lack of viability for Hybrid builds reduces build diversity. ESO had always been billed as a "play how you want" game, but the mechanics have prevented that from actually being the reality. Making Hybrid builds fully viable would drastically improve that, and allow players to play builds that they love (based on concept, and theme, and flavor, and play style) *while still being viably effective* for groups and Trials.

Now lastly, as for the issue of sustain vs. damage output, if that is truly a balance concern (and I don't think it is, but I don't have the full game data that's available to the devs), then one possible solution could be that *in addition to improving Hybrid damage output* the devs could also increase the Ability costs based on the ratio of one resource pool maximum to the other. In other words, if the gap between the two resource pools is smaller, then Ability costs are higher, but if the gap is larger, then Ability costs are lower. If done properly this would negate any sustain advantage from being a Hybrid in exchange for increasing Hybrid builds' damage output to be in the range of the damage output of Pure builds. I don't personally like this solution and I don't think it's necessary, but it is a possible option that the devs could consider.

Lynx