What was the point of reworking Vampire's?

TX12001rwb17_ESO · September 2021

Vevvev wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

- Unnatural Movement currently provides no benefit to combat, the greatest passive power a vampire has helps them run away? what I would instead do is make Unnatural Movement provide immunity to Snares.

I'd rather just have it give minor expedition at all times. Fulfill the vampire thing of being faster than a mortal.

In my reowrk Blood Frenay would already cover that.

Rakdos · September 2021

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

- Unnatural Movement currently provides no benefit to combat, the greatest passive power a vampire has helps them run away? what I would instead do is make Unnatural Movement provide immunity to Snares.

There are some interesting ideas last year when they trying to rework the vampire

some said the unnatural movement should change the dodge roll in to a magic based. make it like a misty-ish rolling

DavGlen · September 2021

K9002 wrote: »

There's a lot of little things that irk me about vampires as they are both on live and PTS.
Nightblade skills look more like blood magic than the actual vampire kit, and they're usually more effective as well. Monster vampires have better looking and more diverse abilities too.

Vampire kit feels like a 4th skill line for Nightblades instead of being its own thing or a guild-style line that can supplement every class equally well.

NPC vampires have very cool gap closers while we get crappy Mist Form in which we can't even sprint, let alone dash forward.

Magplar Sweeps make a far better vampiric (as in draining) skill than anything in the vampire kit, despite the holy light visual theme.

The spammable skill is named Eviscerate, yet it doesn't cause bleeding or this new hemorrhage (mangle) status effect. In fact it doesn't do anything, unlike any other spammable.

The Vampire Lord set mostly makes the penalties worse instead of mitigating them or providing a pure buff to vampire abilities, no additional drawbacks. I mean come on, it's a full 5-piece set, not some mythic.

Vampires in Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim had greater resistances to physical types of damage as counterweight to their fire weakness.

Mesmerize has this stupid enemy facing the player condition, which is very sensitive to server-side issues like desync, even in PvE. Vampiric fear/demoralize spells in mainline games were pure illusion magic and just worked.

Drain does not stun but it's not a tether or uninterruptible channel (like Soul Strike) either. Scourge Harvester set provides a far better drain than this without costing any resources or wasting 3 global cooldowns. Even the Vateshran resto staff has a better draining tether mechanic, albeit it regenerates different resources.

PREACH

ajkb78 · September 2021

The way to avoid vampire being either universally unusable or universally OP is to make it an equal, but "instead of" option. Become a vampire, get your class skills replaced with three fully fleshed out vampire skill lines, either gradually as your camp stage increases or all at once. The idea is losing your humanity, so replacing varied human class skills with specifically vampire skills fits that, and it would allow vampirism to develop a place as an option, equally viable to other classes for all roles. It might turn out that you particularly need a vamp or two in an optimised group if they being a unique buff (in the same way as any other class) but other than that they should be competitive as tanks, healers and DDs, neither OP nor underperforming in any role but just another alternative with its own distinct flavour.

BattleAxe · September 2021

ajkb78 wrote: »

The way to avoid vampire being either universally unusable or universally OP is to make it an equal, but "instead of" option. Become a vampire, get your class skills replaced with three fully fleshed out vampire skill lines, either gradually as your camp stage increases or all at once. The idea is losing your humanity, so replacing varied human class skills with specifically vampire skills fits that, and it would allow vampirism to develop a place as an option, equally viable to other classes for all roles. It might turn out that you particularly need a vamp or two in an optimised group if they being a unique buff (in the same way as any other class) but other than that they should be competitive as tanks, healers and DDs, neither OP nor underperforming in any role but just another alternative with its own distinct flavour.

Nice idea but then this would need to be done on werewolf as well. Tho is mainly due to initially ww was never used cuz in eso vampire was incredibly good becuz it was just passives and 2 skills

Spectral_Force · October 2021

ajkb78 wrote: »

The way to avoid vampire being either universally unusable or universally OP is to make it an equal, but "instead of" option. Become a vampire, get your class skills replaced with three fully fleshed out vampire skill lines, either gradually as your camp stage increases or all at once. The idea is losing your humanity, so replacing varied human class skills with specifically vampire skills fits that, and it would allow vampirism to develop a place as an option, equally viable to other classes for all roles. It might turn out that you particularly need a vamp or two in an optimised group if they being a unique buff (in the same way as any other class) but other than that they should be competitive as tanks, healers and DDs, neither OP nor underperforming in any role but just another alternative with its own distinct flavour.

I've seen this suggested a few times, and I myself have suggested a system where your skill lines get gradually replaced by Vampire skill lines as you level up the Vampire skill - and choosing not to replace your skill lines would bar you from levelling up Vampirism any further. To be honest I'd rather Vampirism gave you an additional set of skills with a set of drawbacks than replaced your class skills partially or completely - in other TES games vampirism doesn't prevent you from doing anything you otherwise could, like using certain weapons/powers/spells. I'm rather fond of the idea that Vampirism gives you more powers at a price, rather than defines what you are entirely, if that makes sense - you can still have Vampire Sorcerers and Vampire Nightblades and Vampire Necromancers rather than just "Vampires". But if that's what it takes to have flavourful and balanced Vampires, I'll take it.

Ryuvain · October 2021

BattleAxe wrote: »

ajkb78 wrote: »

The way to avoid vampire being either universally unusable or universally OP is to make it an equal, but "instead of" option. Become a vampire, get your class skills replaced with three fully fleshed out vampire skill lines, either gradually as your camp stage increases or all at once. The idea is losing your humanity, so replacing varied human class skills with specifically vampire skills fits that, and it would allow vampirism to develop a place as an option, equally viable to other classes for all roles. It might turn out that you particularly need a vamp or two in an optimised group if they being a unique buff (in the same way as any other class) but other than that they should be competitive as tanks, healers and DDs, neither OP nor underperforming in any role but just another alternative with its own distinct flavour.

This idea would be amazing to see. It would make it so that they could buff vampires and give them more npc moves because they wont be a straight upgrade anymore.

Nice idea but then this would need to be done on werewolf as well. Tho is mainly due to initially ww was never used cuz in eso vampire was incredibly good becuz it was just passives and 2 skills

ajkb78 wrote: »

The way to avoid vampire being either universally unusable or universally OP is to make it an equal, but "instead of" option. Become a vampire, get your class skills replaced with three fully fleshed out vampire skill lines, either gradually as your camp stage increases or all at once. The idea is losing your humanity, so replacing varied human class skills with specifically vampire skills fits that, and it would allow vampirism to develop a place as an option, equally viable to other classes for all roles. It might turn out that you particularly need a vamp or two in an optimised group if they being a unique buff (in the same way as any other class) but other than that they should be competitive as tanks, healers and DDs, neither OP nor underperforming in any role but just another alternative with its own distinct flavour.

People always forget about werewolves. They arent used in pvp or pve. Pve is obvious why since they dont bring anything and are actually just worse than any stam class, and I cant remember the last time I saw a werewolf in cyro.

Mayrael · October 2021

Ryuvain wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

ajkb78 wrote: »

The way to avoid vampire being either universally unusable or universally OP is to make it an equal, but "instead of" option. Become a vampire, get your class skills replaced with three fully fleshed out vampire skill lines, either gradually as your camp stage increases or all at once. The idea is losing your humanity, so replacing varied human class skills with specifically vampire skills fits that, and it would allow vampirism to develop a place as an option, equally viable to other classes for all roles. It might turn out that you particularly need a vamp or two in an optimised group if they being a unique buff (in the same way as any other class) but other than that they should be competitive as tanks, healers and DDs, neither OP nor underperforming in any role but just another alternative with its own distinct flavour.

This idea would be amazing to see. It would make it so that they could buff vampires and give them more npc moves because they wont be a straight upgrade anymore.

Nice idea but then this would need to be done on werewolf as well. Tho is mainly due to initially ww was never used cuz in eso vampire was incredibly good becuz it was just passives and 2 skills

ajkb78 wrote: »

The way to avoid vampire being either universally unusable or universally OP is to make it an equal, but "instead of" option. Become a vampire, get your class skills replaced with three fully fleshed out vampire skill lines, either gradually as your camp stage increases or all at once. The idea is losing your humanity, so replacing varied human class skills with specifically vampire skills fits that, and it would allow vampirism to develop a place as an option, equally viable to other classes for all roles. It might turn out that you particularly need a vamp or two in an optimised group if they being a unique buff (in the same way as any other class) but other than that they should be competitive as tanks, healers and DDs, neither OP nor underperforming in any role but just another alternative with its own distinct flavour.

People always forget about werewolves. They arent used in pvp or pve. Pve is obvious why since they dont bring anything and are actually just worse than any stam class, and I cant remember the last time I saw a werewolf in cyro.

Almost every day I spent in IC I meet some unkillable werewolf.

Edit:
And about vampires. Yeah everything they have done to them makes vampires just worse than they ever was except of role playing, but hey, what did you expect? Vampire themed chapter is gone so the vampires are no longer neeeded.

Vevvev · October 2021

I wouldn't even say vampire is good for roleplaying. Roleplayers do what they do to have fun, and the vampire skill line is very hard to have fun with. Add in the inability to feed on other players, abilities that slow combat to a painful crawl, and a dedicated high end build just to make sure you don't accidentally kill yourself it's not RP friendly either.

Andre_Noir · October 2021

Mayrael wrote: »

Vampire themed chapter is gone so the vampires are no longer neeeded.

Nothing from then had changed significantly rly. After rework the main benefactors didn't changed so the best vamps are classes with an overtured healing capability: plars and necrowardenbalance. But after armor "rework" here add sNB since first passive cover a single one weak point of crouching in medium armor (and like a mockery reduction to crouch speed added as light armor "buff")

Dragonredux · October 2021

Vevvev wrote: »

I wouldn't even say vampire is good for roleplaying. Roleplayers do what they do to have fun, and the vampire skill line is very hard to have fun with. Add in the inability to feed on other players, abilities that slow combat to a painful crawl, and a dedicated high end build just to make sure you don't accidentally kill yourself it's not RP friendly either.

Don't forgot the no health regen even out of battle and the inability of merchants talking to you at Stage 4.

Had a friend before she quit that had a stage 4 vamp for rp purposes. By the divines, the hoops she'll have to go through to make it not a pain to play.

Vevvev · October 2021

Dragonredux wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

I wouldn't even say vampire is good for roleplaying. Roleplayers do what they do to have fun, and the vampire skill line is very hard to have fun with. Add in the inability to feed on other players, abilities that slow combat to a painful crawl, and a dedicated high end build just to make sure you don't accidentally kill yourself it's not RP friendly either.

Don't forgot the no health regen even out of battle and the inability of merchants talking to you at Stage 4.

Had a friend before she quit that had a stage 4 vamp for rp purposes. By the divines, the hoops she'll have to go through to make it not a pain to play.

As an RPer I loved the stage 4 thing actually. Slot Mesmerize and you can get all the merchants to talk to you just fine, but the real issue is Mesmerize doesn't work on the non-merchants that might have something to say. That does bug me and I think it has to do with the thing that non-merchants can be murdered so using Mesmerize on them would "Stun" them and lead to a fight.

Ryuvain · October 2021

Mayrael wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

ajkb78 wrote: »

The way to avoid vampire being either universally unusable or universally OP is to make it an equal, but "instead of" option. Become a vampire, get your class skills replaced with three fully fleshed out vampire skill lines, either gradually as your camp stage increases or all at once. The idea is losing your humanity, so replacing varied human class skills with specifically vampire skills fits that, and it would allow vampirism to develop a place as an option, equally viable to other classes for all roles. It might turn out that you particularly need a vamp or two in an optimised group if they being a unique buff (in the same way as any other class) but other than that they should be competitive as tanks, healers and DDs, neither OP nor underperforming in any role but just another alternative with its own distinct flavour.

This idea would be amazing to see. It would make it so that they could buff vampires and give them more npc moves because they wont be a straight upgrade anymore.

Nice idea but then this would need to be done on werewolf as well. Tho is mainly due to initially ww was never used cuz in eso vampire was incredibly good becuz it was just passives and 2 skills

ajkb78 wrote: »

The way to avoid vampire being either universally unusable or universally OP is to make it an equal, but "instead of" option. Become a vampire, get your class skills replaced with three fully fleshed out vampire skill lines, either gradually as your camp stage increases or all at once. The idea is losing your humanity, so replacing varied human class skills with specifically vampire skills fits that, and it would allow vampirism to develop a place as an option, equally viable to other classes for all roles. It might turn out that you particularly need a vamp or two in an optimised group if they being a unique buff (in the same way as any other class) but other than that they should be competitive as tanks, healers and DDs, neither OP nor underperforming in any role but just another alternative with its own distinct flavour.

People always forget about werewolves. They arent used in pvp or pve. Pve is obvious why since they dont bring anything and are actually just worse than any stam class, and I cant remember the last time I saw a werewolf in cyro.

Almost every day I spent in IC I meet some unkillable werewolf.

Edit:
And about vampires. Yeah everything they have done to them makes vampires just worse than they ever was except of role playing, but hey, what did you expect? Vampire themed chapter is gone so the vampires are no longer neeeded.

I dont play IC anymore, so Im not affected by what happens there. Was no fun with 90% of enemies being nightblades and teleporting away.

Werewolf can be good there since theres no range at all and you will pretty much always be in melee range. Also theres tons of cover to run away with and spam heals.

I still think they could use a rework like vampire got. To be less one note stam dps and give more use to it. Vampire being versatile like the changes i quoted would be the same kind of change. Both happening would be great.

Spectral_Force · October 2021

Ryuvain wrote: »

I still think they [Werewolves] could use a rework like vampire got.

Be careful what you wish for 😉

Vevvev · October 2021

v7.2.2 notes are out and still nothing. They're really sticking to their guns on this one it seems, and it really does feel more and more like a punishment. Could have easily just nerfed it to something like 30% against NPCs, but they didn't. Mistform's change will make it worthless in all PvE content and against a large number of enemies in the Imperial City and Cyrodiil since they're NPCs.

Also makes no sense lore wise but ZOS's combat team stopped caring about lore a long time ago.

JMadFour · October 2021

So I was just checking in to see if they made any changes to Vampires since the last time I played.

And I see they are actively making us even worse....

Huh. Go Figure.

This Vampire Main hasn't played in months. I suppose that will continue.

Nova_J · October 2021

Vevvev wrote: »

v7.2.2 notes are out and still nothing. They're really sticking to their guns on this one it seems, and it really does feel more and more like a punishment. Could have easily just nerfed it to something like 30% against NPCs, but they didn't. Mistform's change will make it worthless in all PvE content and against a large number of enemies in the Imperial City and Cyrodiil since they're NPCs.

Also makes no sense lore wise but ZOS's combat team stopped caring about lore a long time ago.

Yep, there silence on it just makes it all the worse. Like damn, you would at least think they would acknowledge it.

Thannazzar · October 2021

Nova_J wrote: »

I know I'm late but the nerf to mistform is absolutely ridiculous. The reasoning behind the nerf is even more so, what is the purpose of the skill now? A cheap purge? You might as well just take it off and throw a few more champ points into break free related perks.

Devs have literally spent the last year dismantling any strides made to improve the vamp skill line and seem to be on a mission to remove it from the game entirely. You guys create a trial encounter that is dam near impossible to beat without a single skill, and then instead of fixing the encounter(which is the actual cause of the problem), you decide to basically remove an entire skill from an already incredibly lacking skill line??? Wtf??

Honestly, I'm not even that mad at the nerf itself, it's just the fact that you gave 0 compensation to ANY part of the skill line. ZERO. ZIP. NONE. You all act like players havent been giving you suggestions and alternatives ever since the rework dropped, [snip]

[edited for profanity bypass/bashing]

"Remember kids, it doesn't have to be any good, It just has to make money!" Mark Hamill

WhyMustItBe · October 2021

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Good question.

Very unhappy with the vampire rework myself. The new feeding animations are great but the skill line is not complete like Werewolves is, but punishes you for using other skills to fill in the gaps without rewarding you for doing it.
Vampirism should not increase your skill costs unless it can compensate for that with power (not recommended as that would lead to vampirism becoming mandatory as healers and tanks bridge your sustain gap). Also how come my Necromancer is now worse at Necromancy for becoming a vampire?

Vampirism should also not make you immune to healing. What was ZOS thinking when they made that? You don't make vampires cool by getting them uninvited from every group activity. A healing debuff can be alright, but healing immunity stops vampires from receiving buffs that are applied when being healed. And they have 3 skills that make them immune to healing!

Speaking of which, Blood for Blood costing health makes absolutely no sense if you then back down from that idea again by removing the main draw of having a health cost spammable - gaining sustain by using health as a resource and letting your healer heal you.

Also the whole missing health scaling and always being a crit below 50% health is silly as well. In both PvP and PvE you are always either dead or at full health. This scaling would work in a game like WoW where you can see your health bar slowly ticking down while you wait for your abilities to come off cooldown, but not in ESO. This would only work in ESO if vampires could not be healed (as I said, bad idea) and received 99% less damage so that their health bars slowly deplete instead of being a volatile mess. Anything that is a volatile mess is a pain to deal with and won't make vampires any more interesting.

Another volatile mess is Blood Frenzy. The most useful spell in their kit, but aside from being thematically weird it also is way too tricky to be useful for 99% of players in actual combat situations. I'd say move the sustain penalty onto this skill instead and then get rid of the health cost and healing immunity.

Vampiric Drain is probably the most iconic vampire ability. The fact that this skill's greatest use is outside of combat to enter the next fight with your ultimate ready is a shame. I'd honestly be in favor of this skill being a channelled spammable, like templar jabs only ranged and possibly with a duration longer than 1second if the lack of weaving etc is taken into account, simply because we've seen many npc vampires spam drain against us like that and it is part of their entire appeal.

Mesmerize is a cool RP skill with hardly any use in combat as enemies need to face towards you to be affected. That makes the skill very lackluster as it does the same thing the Fighter's Guild Turn Evil does, except much worse.

Mist Form reduces your damage taken by 75%, but prevents you from casting other skills, puts all of your recoveries at 0, makes you immune to healing from any other ability, prevents you from sprinting, blocking, dodging, constantly drains your magicka and soon it won't even work in PvE anymore at all? Not to mention that simply having access to this soon-to-be useless ability impacts your sustain negatively. They should at the very least make it a 30% reduction in PvE, like Meditate has. When Rockgrove came out Meditate was still at 10%, so I can see that skill taking Mistforms place now that it's back at 30%. For what it does the 75% mitigation is honestly completely fine. Also if the damage reduction in PvE gets gutted like this, Bloodmist should deal more damage.

It honestly needs another full rework.

Absolutely 100%, couldn't have said it better myself.

I would add that the whole infinitely stacking health drain mechanic is simply not suited for an online game. With even a little lag this ability frequently doesn't register the off toggle and continues killing you before you can react. If we all played on fiber within 100 miles of the server I'm sure it would be fine to have such a mechanic but as it is this is really pretty game breaking.

EDIT: Sorry if I sounded bitter in my earlier response but vampirism in this game was like my OG Darkshore in WoW nostalgia trip and to me it feels like the remake totally wrecked the fun factor and mystique that made it cool, in an update that was supposed to be all about the class. There is nothing worse than a "hopes raised - hopes dashed" scenario.

Honestly the best thing from the current incarnation of vampirism is the feeding animations. The normal ability cost increase even at rank 1 when the class has no proper AOE (which are very expensive abilities) nor a complete kit to actually play with even a majority of your viable skills being vampire, it really feels like all downsides.