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What was the point of reworking Vampire's?

Nova_J
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I know I'm late but the nerf to mistform is absolutely ridiculous. The reasoning behind the nerf is even more so, what is the purpose of the skill now? A cheap purge? You might as well just take it off and throw a few more champ points into break free related perks.

Devs have literally spent the last year dismantling any strides made to improve the vamp skill line and seem to be on a mission to remove it from the game entirely. You guys create a trial encounter that is dam near impossible to beat without a single skill, and then instead of fixing the encounter(which is the actual cause of the problem), you decide to basically remove an entire skill from an already incredibly lacking skill line??? Wtf??

Honestly, I'm not even that mad at the nerf itself, it's just the fact that you gave 0 compensation to ANY part of the skill line. ZERO. ZIP. NONE. You all act like players havent been giving you suggestions and alternatives ever since the rework dropped, [snip]

[edited for profanity bypass/bashing]
Edited by ZOS_Lunar on September 29, 2021 12:49PM
  • FeedbackOnly
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    I would like a reason to use vampire on a tank in pve group content. I understand a nerf but this was too far.
  • stefj68
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    i think their could have been other way to fix the issue, if for example mist form would wipes all your aggro on everything around you when you use it it would prevent tanks from taunting and mistfrom right away...

    this skills now is totally useless in pve
  • Ratzkifal
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    Good question.

    Very unhappy with the vampire rework myself. The new feeding animations are great but the skill line is not complete like Werewolves is, but punishes you for using other skills to fill in the gaps without rewarding you for doing it.
    • Vampirism should not increase your skill costs unless it can compensate for that with power (not recommended as that would lead to vampirism becoming mandatory as healers and tanks bridge your sustain gap). Also how come my Necromancer is now worse at Necromancy for becoming a vampire?
    • Vampirism should also not make you immune to healing. What was ZOS thinking when they made that? You don't make vampires cool by getting them uninvited from every group activity. A healing debuff can be alright, but healing immunity stops vampires from receiving buffs that are applied when being healed. And they have 3 skills that make them immune to healing!
    • Speaking of which, Blood for Blood costing health makes absolutely no sense if you then back down from that idea again by removing the main draw of having a health cost spammable - gaining sustain by using health as a resource and letting your healer heal you.
    • Also the whole missing health scaling and always being a crit below 50% health is silly as well. In both PvP and PvE you are always either dead or at full health. This scaling would work in a game like WoW where you can see your health bar slowly ticking down while you wait for your abilities to come off cooldown, but not in ESO. This would only work in ESO if vampires could not be healed (as I said, bad idea) and received 99% less damage so that their health bars slowly deplete instead of being a volatile mess. Anything that is a volatile mess is a pain to deal with and won't make vampires any more interesting.
    • Another volatile mess is Blood Frenzy. The most useful spell in their kit, but aside from being thematically weird it also is way too tricky to be useful for 99% of players in actual combat situations. I'd say move the sustain penalty onto this skill instead and then get rid of the health cost and healing immunity.
    • Vampiric Drain is probably the most iconic vampire ability. The fact that this skill's greatest use is outside of combat to enter the next fight with your ultimate ready is a shame. I'd honestly be in favor of this skill being a channelled spammable, like templar jabs only ranged and possibly with a duration longer than 1second if the lack of weaving etc is taken into account, simply because we've seen many npc vampires spam drain against us like that and it is part of their entire appeal.
    • Mesmerize is a cool RP skill with hardly any use in combat as enemies need to face towards you to be affected. That makes the skill very lackluster as it does the same thing the Fighter's Guild Turn Evil does, except much worse.
    • Mist Form reduces your damage taken by 75%, but prevents you from casting other skills, puts all of your recoveries at 0, makes you immune to healing from any other ability, prevents you from sprinting, blocking, dodging, constantly drains your magicka and soon it won't even work in PvE anymore at all? Not to mention that simply having access to this soon-to-be useless ability impacts your sustain negatively. They should at the very least make it a 30% reduction in PvE, like Meditate has. When Rockgrove came out Meditate was still at 10%, so I can see that skill taking Mistforms place now that it's back at 30%. For what it does the 75% mitigation is honestly completely fine. Also if the damage reduction in PvE gets gutted like this, Bloodmist should deal more damage.

    It honestly needs another full rework.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Urzigurumash
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    The passives are nearly indispensable in PvP, they're really good there.
    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
  • ManM
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    The point is to guarantee that vampire is not a requirement for anything. Unfortunately, due to the nature of min/maxing, any time a vampire skill becomes useful in any situation, it becomes considered a requirement for an optimized group. The whole point is for vampire to be absolutely suboptimal in every situation except for soloing overland content, where it doesn't matter anyway.
  • Aldoss
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    stefj68 wrote: »
    i think their could have been other way to fix the issue, if for example mist form would wipes all your aggro on everything around you when you use it it would prevent tanks from taunting and mistfrom right away...

    this skills now is totally useless in pve

    Tanking is not the only cheese coming from vRG HM. The portal mech in that fight is also done by dpsers who use mist form to survive the damage and kill the ghosts. Taunt is not the issue. This fight is. If Tanks aren't allowed to use mist, but dpsers can to "cheese" mechs... Sorry, I won't accept that as an appropriate compromise.

    I'm on board with two solutions: Fix the fight that caused this whole thing or tie the mitigation to vamp stage. Make a DD choose between sustain and mitigation during the portal phase for the entire fight if they want that as an option in their toolkit. A tank should have to weigh the pros and cons if they want something that powerful in their toolkit.

    Either do both of those or only one. Taunt does not solve this issue of "mist form cheese".
  • Xebov
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    Vampire is always in a complicated position. The skilline has downsides so it has to over something to be worth it, on the other side the offering should not be to good to prevent players from being forces into Vampire (what we ha din the past). Thats realy hard to do right and you will likely see the vampire going back and forth between good and not worth it.

    About the nerf itself, that is easily explained. You sue that single skill to make the encounter easier to beat it. Now the encounter might need fixing, but even if you do what tells you that the Vampire is not staying as a must have because its still easier with the skill? To prevent this the nerf makes sense.
  • TX12001rwb17_ESO
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    How about lock abilities behind Vampire stages instead of just passives so people need to be a higher vampirism stage to use mist form, as compensation maybe give Vampires an attribute buff based on stage

    - No bonus at stage 1
    - 500 attribute bonus at stage 2
    - 1000 attribute bonus at stage 3
    - 2000 attribute bonus at stage 4

    As how for the stage based abilities would work

    - You cannot use any Vampire abilities at stage 1
    - Eviscerate and Hypnosis and can be used at stage 2
    - Vampiric Drain and Blood Frenzy can be used at stage 3
    - Mist Form and Blood Scion can be used at stage 4
    Edited by TX12001rwb17_ESO on September 29, 2021 7:29AM
  • Nova_J
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    stefj68 wrote: »
    i think their could have been other way to fix the issue, if for example mist form would wipes all your aggro on everything around you when you use it it would prevent tanks from taunting and mistfrom right away...

    this skills now is totally useless in pve

    Then what would be the purpose of blood mist morph? If they were to increase the damage then that would then okay.
  • Nova_J
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    The passives are nearly indispensable in PvP, they're really good there.

    The passive have more negatives than positives unless you're a bomb build (bombblade specifically).
  • Nova_J
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    ManM wrote: »
    The point is to guarantee that vampire is not a requirement for anything. Unfortunately, due to the nature of min/maxing, any time a vampire skill becomes useful in any situation, it becomes considered a requirement for an optimized group. The whole point is for vampire to be absolutely suboptimal in every situation except for soloing overland content, where it doesn't matter anyway.

    That doesnt make any damn sense and makes vampires an unnecessary target. Just because something is BIS doesnt make it the only option. I dont know why they keep trying to force that mantra or who started it but they need to be slapped.

    For a long time, shards was one of the best group sustain tools in the game and dang near made templars BIS for healers. By that ideology shards and (by extension) templars shouldve been nerfed with no compensation instead of using the multitude of other alternatives. Nerfing something just because it's good at its job isnt always the best route, and they are taking it waaay too far with vamps.
  • Narvuntien
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    Yeah it needs another rework at this point.

    If a vampires are punished for not using vampire skills their own skills should be complete and highly synergistic.

    Needs spammable, DoT and AoE Dot. Plus some defensive steroids and AoE immobilise if you want to vamp tank.
  • Nova_J
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    Xebov wrote: »
    Vampire is always in a complicated position. The skilline has downsides so it has to over something to be worth it, on the other side the offering should not be to good to prevent players from being forces into Vampire (what we ha din the past). Thats realy hard to do right and you will likely see the vampire going back and forth between good and not worth it.

    About the nerf itself, that is easily explained. You sue that single skill to make the encounter easier to beat it. Now the encounter might need fixing, but even if you do what tells you that the Vampire is not staying as a must have because its still easier with the skill? To prevent this the nerf makes sense.

    Vampire was never a "must have". It was one of the best options but was never a requirement to complete any content in the game besides the vamp intro quest. That narrative is the reason why all this is happening and it really needs to change.
  • jan.denaanb16_ESO
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    I'm sorry but the current iteration of the nerf does NOT make sense. It's making it useless in pve. Nullifying some of the work that was done to revamp the vampire with greymoor...From a business standpoint it is just inexplicable. Money was put into that rework. Who does that?!


    It's undeniably useless in pve with this nerf. I honestly don't expect it to go live in this iteration. There are numerous other ways this situation can be fixed. Rendering an entire skill useless(again... in pve) and devalueing vampire as a whole in the eyes of your community... Good businessplan. And for a niche couple of situations this was 'exploited' in.


    Make mist form drop taunt doesnt fix it completely but makes sense to just make it so.
    Make you vulnarable to certain type of dmg in mistform and making bosses do that type of dmg.


    but also as stated in earlier comments. Fixing some encounters makes more sense. Especially long term.
    Edited by jan.denaanb16_ESO on September 29, 2021 7:45AM
  • Spectral_Force
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    I reckon the fact that Vampire has been through so many hoops since the rework, with ZOS being unable to "fix" it, shows that the current iteration is broken at its very core - there aren't enough variables to tweak, and the "kiss-curse" framework is too inflexible to allow for meaningful choice - Vampire is always either BIS or a handicap. Let's assume ZOS have done their best, tried their darndest to find a solution to make Vampire viable without being overpowered, and that any and all potential quick fixes, suggested by the community or from within the development team, were tested and found to horrendously wreck the game's balance. Let's assume that.

    With so many abilities either broken from the start (like Drain, Mesmerise or Perfect Scion) or broken along the way, I think it would be best if ZOS went back to the drawing board on this one. Abilities, mechanics, lore - everything. Throw a bunch of questions up on the whiteboard - question everything, every design decision made in the past; leave no stone unturned. Do you want Vampires to be their own thing, almost (or even completely) a standalone class, or do you want Vampirism to augment our existing builds? If you want it to be standalone, what tools do we need for a complete kit? If not, how well does it synergise with existing classes? Do you want Vampirism in ESO to stick to existing TES lore? If not, what is the justification? Does it still make sense, is it internally consistent with itself and is it consistent with the overarching TES lore? Based on that, what do you want the Vampire playstyle to be? Should there even be an "intended" playstyle in the first place, or do you want Vampires to be flexible? Do we need stages? Do we need passives? Do we even need abilities? Do we get weaker or stronger when we feed, and by how much? How often do we need to feed? Do we need to feed - how optional is feeding? How does it work? Is it lethal? Can we feed in combat? Can we feed on other players? What are the benefits in PvE and PvP? What are the benefits for Magicka and Stamina builds, or even for Health builds? What are the benefits for DD, Tanks and Healers? What are the drawbacks, and how do you rein in Vampire DDs, Tanks and Healers in PvE and PvP? How do these drawbacks tie into your lore, and do they make sense thematically? Do you want us to be able to "opt out" of Vampirism in all ways but appearance and ability to infect other players? How many balance vectors are there in case you need to tweak something? How "immersive" do you want Vamprism to be - too much and it will be annoying, too little and the game world will seem oblivious. Is oblivious even a bad thing, really?

    Ask these questions amongst yourselves and be open-minded to whatever answers you'll receive. Run it by us, your community - we're the ones playing your game after all, we can help if it means getting a better product. We may not always agree with you or with each other, but a hundred second opinions is still better than none. Run through the answers and write down a coherent vision for Vampirism, and set to work. Keep looking back at the document, adjust it on the fly if you have some great ideas, but always keep double-checking with the rest of it to make sure the pieces still fit together. Once you're done, go back through the original vision and see what changed, and whether it was for the better.

    You may look at the forums and see a bunch of angry complainers - but we're just passionate about Vampirism and the game in general. Our suggestions don't come from a position of "I-can-do-better" arrogance - we're genuinely trying to help you make a better game so that we can better enjoy it.
    Edited by Spectral_Force on September 30, 2021 6:41AM
    I've unearthed the Legendary Antiquity of Mêlée Island and all I got was this stupid T-shirt!
  • Ulthlian
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    I quoting my post from almost a year ago topic with similar discussion:
    I think that skill line needs some tweaks here and there to make it viable and fun choice for magicka and stamina damage dealers at least.
    Here is a list of what should be changed/added IMO:
    Blood for Blood scales from highest offensive stat, and get more crit chance for every 10% of missing target health for bonus execute damage in melee range; also increases healing received from vampiric abilities and passives by 10%, reduces healing from other sources by 75% for 5 seconds after cast.
    Arterial burst is 28 meters ranged, procs burning and chilled status effects (blood boil and blood freeze) with 10% chance at full target health plus 10% chance for every 10% of target's HP missing.
    Sated Fury gives you a shield for 33% of the total health cost you spent while it was toggled on (but 60% of max HP is the cap for micromanagement for burst/save phases). Duration is 8 seconds.
    Simmering Frenzy reduces damage taken by 10% when toggled on in addition to existing effects.
    Drain Vigor becomes a single target tether with 22 meter range, scales with stamina, heals for 75% of the damage done and increases stam regen by 100. Duration is 10 seconds. You can press the button again to rush in a swarm of bats to the target dealing some damage and healing yourself, but tether duration is reduced by 2 seconds.
    Exhilarating Drain becomes a single target DoT with 28 meter range, scales with magicka, heals for 75% of the damage done and affects target with minor lifesteal. Duration is 10 seconds.
    Hypnosis and Stupefy get a new effect: ability damages all affected targets when stun ends (or target breaks free) and heals you for 30%/100% of the damage dealt respectively.
    Blood Mist and Elusive Mist give you minor expedition when toggled and for 3 seconds after leaving mist form.
    Swarming Scion affects all targets damaged by the bat swarm with minor lifesteal.
    Perfect Scion give you minor intellect and endurance when slotted.
    Feed heals you and reduces HP regen penalty by 10% for 1 hour. Stacks up to 2 times.
    Something or maybe everything may seem imbalanced, but its just ideas.
  • divnyi
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    Nova_J wrote: »
    Xebov wrote: »
    Vampire is always in a complicated position. The skilline has downsides so it has to over something to be worth it, on the other side the offering should not be to good to prevent players from being forces into Vampire (what we ha din the past). Thats realy hard to do right and you will likely see the vampire going back and forth between good and not worth it.

    About the nerf itself, that is easily explained. You sue that single skill to make the encounter easier to beat it. Now the encounter might need fixing, but even if you do what tells you that the Vampire is not staying as a must have because its still easier with the skill? To prevent this the nerf makes sense.

    Vampire was never a "must have". It was one of the best options but was never a requirement to complete any content in the game besides the vamp intro quest. That narrative is the reason why all this is happening and it really needs to change.

    It was. Additional sustain was pushing vampire to be meta in both PvE and PvP.
    Whatever we have now is better than "oops all vampires".
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    [*] Speaking of which, Blood for Blood costing health makes absolutely no sense if you then back down from that idea again by removing the main draw of having a health cost spammable - gaining sustain by using health as a resource and letting your healer heal you.
    [*] Also the whole missing health scaling and always being a crit below 50% health is silly as well. In both PvP and PvE you are always either dead or at full health. This scaling would work in a game like WoW where you can see your health bar slowly ticking down while you wait for your abilities to come off cooldown, but not in ESO. This would only work in ESO if vampires could not be healed (as I said, bad idea) and received 99% less damage so that their health bars slowly deplete instead of being a volatile mess. Anything that is a volatile mess is a pain to deal with and won't make vampires any more interesting.

    It was absolutely ridiculously OP in ball groups when you were able to cross-heal and use blood-for-blood.
    Everyone was stage3 with essentially free spammable, just spamming radiating regens and blood for bloods.
    They nerfed it quick for a reason.

    Missing health trigger is fine. Actually the first skill is absolutely fine at this point, it's other 3 that are questionable. And with mist nerf, all 4 would be questionable.

    Making simmering frenzy not losing ability to be cross-healed might be interesting experiment. Unlike blood for blood, this skill hits like a truck and you won't be able to abuse it by balls as easily and without risk, and it might enable risky PvE plays.

    Mesmerize and Drain are two skills that need to be completely reworked or replaced.
  • codierussell
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    [*] Another volatile mess is Blood Frenzy. The most useful spell in their kit, but aside from being thematically weird it also is way too tricky to be useful for 99% of players in actual combat situations. I'd say move the sustain penalty onto this skill instead and then get rid of the health cost and healing immunity.

    I'm sorry but that is a terrible idea. You are going from the useless end in most content (solo arenas it is still used) to absolutely stupid strong that everyone will run. Sustain penalties even help players this patch due to bahsei and stonetalker is such a strong sustain set. Talk about power creep.

  • TX12001rwb17_ESO
    TX12001rwb17_ESO
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    Here is how I would improve Vampirism:

    - Eviscerate and Blood for Blood would remain unchanged, Arterial Burst however would instead allow the ability to be used from Range instead of having a 100% critical chance when below 50% health.

    - Blood Frenzy and it's morphs would now also increase your movement speed while active.

    - Vampiric Drain and it's morphs would deal more damage the less health you have remaining, if it heals you for more health when you are low on health then logically it should deal more damage.

    - Mist Form and it's morphs should provide a 50% damage reduction, elusive Mist should apply a 50% movement speed buff up from 30% and Blood Mist would scale off of your highest stat.

    - Hypnosis and it's morphs should allow you to bite the stunned enemy performing an instant kill move on weaker enemies.

    - Blood Scion and Swarming Scion would remain unchanged, Perfect Scion however should instead of it's current effect allow you to teleport to the targeted enemy in a cloud of bats dealing XXXX amounts of damage similar to the old Clouding Swarm ultimate, I would suggest a name change such as "Savage Scion"

    As for the Vampirism passives:

    - Vampirism would not reduce your healing rate based on stage, instead it would reduce your healing taken from others by 3% per stage up to a 12% reduction when at stage 4, as compensation your base health regeneration would be increased by 150 per stage up to 600 faster health regeneration when at stage 4.

    - Unnatural Movement currently provides no benefit to combat, the greatest passive power a vampire has helps them run away? what I would instead do is make Unnatural Movement provide immunity to Snares.
  • Vevvev
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    - Unnatural Movement currently provides no benefit to combat, the greatest passive power a vampire has helps them run away? what I would instead do is make Unnatural Movement provide immunity to Snares.

    I'd rather just have it give minor expedition at all times. Fulfill the vampire thing of being faster than a mortal.
    PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK
  • Vevvev
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    divnyi wrote: »
    Nova_J wrote: »
    Xebov wrote: »
    Vampire is always in a complicated position. The skilline has downsides so it has to over something to be worth it, on the other side the offering should not be to good to prevent players from being forces into Vampire (what we ha din the past). Thats realy hard to do right and you will likely see the vampire going back and forth between good and not worth it.

    About the nerf itself, that is easily explained. You sue that single skill to make the encounter easier to beat it. Now the encounter might need fixing, but even if you do what tells you that the Vampire is not staying as a must have because its still easier with the skill? To prevent this the nerf makes sense.

    Vampire was never a "must have". It was one of the best options but was never a requirement to complete any content in the game besides the vamp intro quest. That narrative is the reason why all this is happening and it really needs to change.

    It was. Additional sustain was pushing vampire to be meta in both PvE and PvP.
    Whatever we have now is better than "oops all vampires".

    I actually found the stage 2 passive from long ago not all that good. Sure sustain is nice, but on a build that doesn't go hard into boosting sustain the multiplicative boost fell short. I'd rather have had it give me a flat value boost, but how it was the passive also required you to take 15% more flame damage which is 3/4ths of our current stage 4 weakness of 20%. Made content with lots of flame, and fighting magDKs, harder as you can well imagine.
    PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK
  • Amottica
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    - Vampirism would not reduce your healing rate based on stage, instead it would reduce your healing taken from others by 3% per stage up to a 12% reduction when at stage 4, as compensation your base health regeneration would be increased by 150 per stage up to 600 faster health regeneration when at stage 4.

    This caught my eye and I did not read the rest.

    I do not see why someone would receive less healing just because they are a vampire. I do not see it has a good game mechanic at all.

    Further, health regen in ESO is not good unless someone goes all in so this is not a very good trade-off. 600 health regen is ~300 HP per second. That is not very noticeable.
  • Vevvev
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    Amottica wrote: »
    - Vampirism would not reduce your healing rate based on stage, instead it would reduce your healing taken from others by 3% per stage up to a 12% reduction when at stage 4, as compensation your base health regeneration would be increased by 150 per stage up to 600 faster health regeneration when at stage 4.

    This caught my eye and I did not read the rest.

    I do not see why someone would receive less healing just because they are a vampire. I do not see it has a good game mechanic at all.

    Further, health regen in ESO is not good unless someone goes all in so this is not a very good trade-off. 600 health regen is ~300 HP per second. That is not very noticeable.

    Think it goes back to the Skyrim thing of you need special undead healing spells to actually heal vampires. Normal restoration spells wouldn't work on vampire allies, but somehow normal restoration spells worked on you as a vampire. It's weird but his suggestion feels like a callout to that.
    PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK
  • Amottica
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    Vevvev wrote: »
    Amottica wrote: »
    - Vampirism would not reduce your healing rate based on stage, instead it would reduce your healing taken from others by 3% per stage up to a 12% reduction when at stage 4, as compensation your base health regeneration would be increased by 150 per stage up to 600 faster health regeneration when at stage 4.

    This caught my eye and I did not read the rest.

    I do not see why someone would receive less healing just because they are a vampire. I do not see it has a good game mechanic at all.

    Further, health regen in ESO is not good unless someone goes all in so this is not a very good trade-off. 600 health regen is ~300 HP per second. That is not very noticeable.

    Think it goes back to the Skyrim thing of you need special undead healing spells to actually heal vampires. Normal restoration spells wouldn't work on vampire allies, but somehow normal restoration spells worked on you as a vampire. It's weird but his suggestion feels like a callout to that.

    This is an MMORPG so it needs to follow different logic in such matters.
  • Vevvev
    Vevvev
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    Amottica wrote: »
    Vevvev wrote: »
    Amottica wrote: »
    - Vampirism would not reduce your healing rate based on stage, instead it would reduce your healing taken from others by 3% per stage up to a 12% reduction when at stage 4, as compensation your base health regeneration would be increased by 150 per stage up to 600 faster health regeneration when at stage 4.

    This caught my eye and I did not read the rest.

    I do not see why someone would receive less healing just because they are a vampire. I do not see it has a good game mechanic at all.

    Further, health regen in ESO is not good unless someone goes all in so this is not a very good trade-off. 600 health regen is ~300 HP per second. That is not very noticeable.

    Think it goes back to the Skyrim thing of you need special undead healing spells to actually heal vampires. Normal restoration spells wouldn't work on vampire allies, but somehow normal restoration spells worked on you as a vampire. It's weird but his suggestion feels like a callout to that.

    This is an MMORPG so it needs to follow different logic in such matters.

    His suggestion is sound though because it's about reducing incoming heals instead of outright removing them like how Vampire is right now. The increase in health regeneration would also make surviving a bit easier and make you more sustainable in a group setting when the abilities that stop healing are being used. (Blood Frenzy, Blood for Blood, and Mistform)
    PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK
  • Urzigurumash
    Urzigurumash
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    Nova_J wrote: »
    The passives are nearly indispensable in PvP, they're really good there.

    The passive have more negatives than positives unless you're a bomb build (bombblade specifically).

    Maybe it's just me. Undeath and Unnatural Movement are an objective power-up for the way I play, and Dark Stalker and Strike from the Shadows are pretty handy. All well worth the negatives. Anyhow Bombblades have pretty much been replaced by Dark Convergence builds, for now.
    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
  • merpins
    merpins
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    To be fair, it should be nerfed. But not like this. ZoS likes the skill, so they want to keep it. But by making a skill in a non-pvp skill line only work in pvp is a bad decision. They should just make 2 versions of the skill (as they should for many skills in the game), that being a pve and a pvp version, and the skill BECOMES that version when in pve or pvp. Just making a skill not work in half the game is bad game design when the skill line isn't specifically for that, like alliance war skills.
  • newtinmpls
    newtinmpls
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    Vamp is currently not really playable other than severely niche builds... and the rework makes it even less playable.
    Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
    Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
    Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
    Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.
    ***
    Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
    House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
    Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis
  • K9002
    K9002
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    There's a lot of little things that irk me about vampires as they are both on live and PTS.
    • Nightblade skills look more like blood magic than the actual vampire kit, and they're usually more effective as well. Monster vampires have better looking and more diverse abilities too.
    • Vampire kit feels like a 4th skill line for Nightblades instead of being its own thing or a guild-style line that can supplement every class equally well.
    • NPC vampires have very cool gap closers while we get crappy Mist Form in which we can't even sprint, let alone dash forward.
    • Magplar Sweeps make a far better vampiric (as in draining) skill than anything in the vampire kit, despite the holy light visual theme.
    • The spammable skill is named Eviscerate, yet it doesn't cause bleeding or this new hemorrhage (mangle) status effect. In fact it doesn't do anything, unlike any other spammable.
    • The Vampire Lord set mostly makes the penalties worse instead of mitigating them or providing a pure buff to vampire abilities, no additional drawbacks. I mean come on, it's a full 5-piece set, not some mythic.
    • Vampires in Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim had greater resistances to physical types of damage as counterweight to their fire weakness.
    • Mesmerize has this stupid enemy facing the player condition, which is very sensitive to server-side issues like desync, even in PvE. Vampiric fear/demoralize spells in mainline games were pure illusion magic and just worked.
    • Drain does not stun but it's not a tether or uninterruptible channel (like Soul Strike) either. Scourge Harvester set provides a far better drain than this without costing any resources or wasting 3 global cooldowns. Even the Vateshran resto staff has a better draining tether mechanic, albeit it regenerates different resources.
  • Nova_J
    Nova_J
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    divnyi wrote: »
    Nova_J wrote: »
    Xebov wrote: »
    Vampire is always in a complicated position. The skilline has downsides so it has to over something to be worth it, on the other side the offering should not be to good to prevent players from being forces into Vampire (what we ha din the past). Thats realy hard to do right and you will likely see the vampire going back and forth between good and not worth it.

    About the nerf itself, that is easily explained. You sue that single skill to make the encounter easier to beat it. Now the encounter might need fixing, but even if you do what tells you that the Vampire is not staying as a must have because its still easier with the skill? To prevent this the nerf makes sense.

    Vampire was never a "must have". It was one of the best options but was never a requirement to complete any content in the game besides the vamp intro quest. That narrative is the reason why all this is happening and it really needs to change.

    It was. Additional sustain was pushing vampire to be meta in both PvE and PvP.
    Whatever we have now is better than "oops all vampires".


    Right now, sustain and crit makes khajit the best mag dps. Does that mean that all mag dps have to be khajit now?? Meta does not equal only option. Vamps were used for best sustain just like inferno staffs were used for best single target dps.
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