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remove some stats
KhajiitLivesMatter
✭✭✭✭
yea so basicly if NEARLY every sources now gives u weap and spell dmg why even have 2 stats just delete them and create a single dmg stat
wouldnt change much and would make it a bit simpler
also while we are at it remove crti dmg / healing cause for crit chance its crit healing and crit dmg too so why split it with the dmg and healing - would also balance something like axes which atm only provide crit dmg and no healing while sword provide more dmg and healing
edit nearly forgot the mesion that the diffrence between mag and stam crit chance is useless to if NEARLY every source provide both of it
Edited by KhajiitLivesMatter on September 25, 2021 11:25PM wouldnt change much and would make it a bit simpler
also while we are at it remove crti dmg / healing cause for crit chance its crit healing and crit dmg too so why split it with the dmg and healing - would also balance something like axes which atm only provide crit dmg and no healing while sword provide more dmg and healing
edit nearly forgot the mesion that the diffrence between mag and stam crit chance is useless to if NEARLY every source provide both of it
3
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Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Combine all buffs, combine all stats, homogenization for everyone and everything! Hallelujah!!0 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭No thanks. As stx put it.. that wouldn't be good.
Right now there is still a distinction via Resources/Resource Regen which happens to be present on armor too. Spell/Weapon damage bonuses aren't completely hybrid as Enchants on Jewelry still go one way or the other.
There has to be some downsides to being a "hybrid", a small decrease in damage via lower resource pool and maybe 600-400 less damage via enchants is a pretty solid middle ground.PC Beta - 1900+ CP
Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit
Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit3 -
Rakdos✭✭KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »yea so basicly if NEARLY every sources now gives u weap and spell dmg why even have 2 stats just delete them and create a single dmg stat
wouldnt change much and would make it a bit simpler
also while we are at it remove crti dmg / healing cause for crit chance its crit healing and crit dmg too so why split it with the dmg and healing - would also balance something like axes which atm only provide crit dmg and no healing while sword provide more dmg and healing
edit nearly forgot the mesion that the diffrence between mag and stam crit chance is useless to if NEARLY every source provide both of it
They need to merge weapon and spell damage
They need to merge weapon and spell critical
They already did these change on sets and some skills, now they only need to change those buffs
1 -
KhajiitLivesMatter✭✭✭✭KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »yea so basicly if NEARLY every sources now gives u weap and spell dmg why even have 2 stats just delete them and create a single dmg stat
wouldnt change much and would make it a bit simpler
also while we are at it remove crti dmg / healing cause for crit chance its crit healing and crit dmg too so why split it with the dmg and healing - would also balance something like axes which atm only provide crit dmg and no healing while sword provide more dmg and healing
edit nearly forgot the mesion that the diffrence between mag and stam crit chance is useless to if NEARLY every source provide both of it
They need to merge weapon and spell damage
They need to merge weapon and spell critical
They already did these change on sets and some skills, now they only need to change those buffs
agree0 -
Ksariyu✭✭✭✭Yeah. Uh, yeah, that's pretty true, uh. . . yeah, that's true. Yeah.
I've made like six posts about this now. It just makes more sense to have a single damage stat and a single crit stat.Combine all buffs, combine all stats, homogenization for everyone and everything! Hallelujah!!
@Stx You make this same "joke" every time this gets mentioned, so let me ask you this. What depth is being provided by the mag/stam divide? What would you lose by merging these stats?MashmalloMan wrote: »No thanks. As stx put it.. that wouldn't be good.
Right now there is still a distinction via Resources/Resource Regen which happens to be present on armor too. Spell/Weapon damage bonuses aren't completely hybrid as Enchants on Jewelry still go one way or the other.
There has to be some downsides to being a "hybrid", a small decrease in damage via lower resource pool and maybe 600-400 less damage via enchants is a pretty solid middle ground.
@MashmalloMan Same question as for Stx kind of. Why does there need to be a DPS loss for being hybrid? How does that make the game more fun?2 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Because if there was zero dps loss for being a hybrid, there would be zero point in playing a pure build? The point of a hybrid is to gain access to both magicka and stamina damage or healing skills, giving you a much larger toolkit to choose from. But gaining all those extra tools should come with some sacrifice.
Homogenization takes away the best part of RPGs.. putting together synergistic, fun, functional builds. If gear has all the same stats, if everyone has the same buffs.. all your choices become meaningless when making a character.4 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yeah. Uh, yeah, that's pretty true, uh. . . yeah, that's true. Yeah.
I've made like six posts about this now. It just makes more sense to have a single damage stat and a single crit stat.Combine all buffs, combine all stats, homogenization for everyone and everything! Hallelujah!!
@Stx You make this same "joke" every time this gets mentioned, so let me ask you this. What depth is being provided by the mag/stam divide? What would you lose by merging these stats?MashmalloMan wrote: »No thanks. As stx put it.. that wouldn't be good.
Right now there is still a distinction via Resources/Resource Regen which happens to be present on armor too. Spell/Weapon damage bonuses aren't completely hybrid as Enchants on Jewelry still go one way or the other.
There has to be some downsides to being a "hybrid", a small decrease in damage via lower resource pool and maybe 600-400 less damage via enchants is a pretty solid middle ground.
@MashmalloMan Same question as for Stx kind of. Why does there need to be a DPS loss for being hybrid? How does that make the game more fun?
I thought I explained my point of view in the original comment. A pure build should excel at one thing (eg. stamina skills), while the set changes allow them to get a little more bang out of off-skills (eg. magicka skills).
A hybrid should never be on par or equal to a pure build like OP is asking for them to be because you run into the issue of them being a "Jack of all trades AND master of all." At that point, why would you ever make a pure build? Isn't it more interesting to have 3 ways to play, rather than 1. As Stx put it.. Homogenization.
And I'm not saying I don't support the idea of hybrids.. I will go on record as being a strong suporter of the idea for years.. but it would be taking it too far to make it 100% equal by combining the stats. There is enough wiggle room in the game now for Hybrids to excel, while years ago it was a much larger difference with CP 1.0, non dynamic light/heavy attacks, crappy passives, seperated debuffs/buffs, and the newest addition set bonuses.
As it stands, the difference between Resource Scaling/Resource Regen and Enchant Damage allows for there to be very minor differences between the 3 and opens up build possibilites (mag/stam/hybrid).
The way I see the balance of Update 32 is this:
A stamina pure build that has 64 points into stamina, 3x weapon damage enchants and Major Brutality/Sorcery will have lets say... 100% stamina damage while 75% magicka damage. Even on live before U32 changes, it's at the point, where despite having a very low magicka pool of 16k, I can actually use Mages Wrath or Curse on a stam sorc as the damage is at a point where it would make a difference. The sustain is the only real reason I'm not crutching on those skills.
For examples sake, I think my Crystal Weapon has an 11k tooltip and Curse has 10,500. It's lower than what a mag sorc can get, but still usable if I wanted to try it out on a stam sorc.
For a Hybrid, they should be able to get about 85-90% damage for both Magicka and Stamina skills instead of 100/75% as illustrated above. This puts their damage at a slight disadvantage vs a pure, while openning up their entire class kit to use. They are as such a "Jack of All Trades, but Master of None" so to speak. For them.. Maybe they use 32 mag/32 stam. 1x Weapon Damage enchant, 1x Spell Damage enchant and 1x tri regen enchant.
Here, they're only missing out on 32 points (roughly 4k resources) and 340 spell/weapon damage... but they can use any skill they want to a good strength level and they have 2 resource pools to juggle instead of 1. A pure build usually only uses their off resource for utility skills like how a stam sorc would use Critical Surge, Streak and Dark Deal and Damage skills for Dizzy Swing, Executioner, Hurricane, Bound Armaments.
A Hybrid Sorc would combine things in interesting ways (and I've already tried this, it's quite fun). Eg. Critical Surge, Streak, Dark Exchange, Dizzy Swing, Haunting Curse, Mages Wrath, Executioner. Now they have 2 executes, 1 is delayed, the other is instant. It's a completely different playstyle, but it has it's drawbacks so it won't be for everyone leaving room for build diversity still.
Edited by MashmalloMan on September 28, 2021 2:36AMPC Beta - 1900+ CP
Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit
Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit4 -
KhajiitLivesMatter✭✭✭✭btw i dont want these changes cause i play hybrids (rather dislike them tbh)
just if they homogenize anyway than they can do it correct not that mess we have now where on most my characters mag and stam stats are equal0 -
KhajiitLivesMatter✭✭✭✭
here just a screenshot of my main with random stuff equiped - u can see pen is already the same - crit will be next patch (1 set gives 657 stam crit) resistance is equal
weapon spell dmg are diffrent cause i m orc and cause of glyphs - if we ignore glyphs for a sec than all my stats are the same but 250 weap dmg
yea rly would make hybrids to strong if i would have 250 spell dmg too...
and this wasnt even ment to be hybrid if u rly try u can get exact stats next patch0 -
Ksariyu✭✭✭✭So ultimately it sounds like we all agree that the give and take of build choices is the fun part of RPGs. You pick stat/skill A, you lose the ability to pick stat/skill B and that choice defines something about how you play.
The biggest problem here though is that nobody's listed a benefit to being hybrid, in the case where a hybrid build must lose damage/skill effectiveness (in the case of healing). I know the immediate answer will be "utility," but that's just not really true in this game, since both mag and stam have access to either the same effects or equivalent versions. This leads to a situation where being a hybrid is just a straight nerf. Even if the damage scales at 100%/95% for a pure build, there's still no reason to use damage/healing skills from the 95% side.
The other major problem is that there is no real gameplay diversity right now, regardless of if you're a hybrid or pure build. If you're a full-on Magsorc, your loop is buff>LA>DoT>LA>Spam repeat until execute. If you're a full-on StamDK with a greatsword, your loop is buff>LA>DoT>LA>Spam repeat until execute. The rotation, the tempo, and the overall gameplay feedback is identical regardless of how far you push to one end of the spectrum.
The big difference I see in our perspectives is I see the issue of homogenization far more in the mechanics that exist in the game (And with some that were taken out), rather than as a purely stat-driven thing. This also reflects in the way skills are designed, which emphasizes the very static BiS situation we have. Of course, at the end of the day, there's always going to be a point where we have to draw the line and say, "This is just going to be better than that," because people will figure out how to break it. I just think there's more room for tactile improvements rather than a very straightforward stat allocation (Though I do feel like more could be done here as well, in ways that are more RPS-esque than the current Weapon/Spell Damage system).MashmalloMan wrote: »
A hybrid should never be on par or equal to a pure build like OP is asking for them to be because you run into the issue of them being a "Jack of all trades AND master of all." At that point, why would you ever make a pure build? Isn't it more interesting to have 3 ways to play, rather than 1. As Stx put it.. Homogenization.
And I'm not saying I don't support the idea of hybrids.. I will go on record as being a strong suporter of the idea for years.. but it would be taking it too far to make it 100% equal by combining the stats. There is enough wiggle room in the game now for Hybrids to excel, while years ago it was a much larger difference with CP 1.0, non dynamic light/heavy attacks, crappy passives, seperated debuffs/buffs, and the newest addition set bonuses.
. . .
A Hybrid Sorc would combine things in interesting ways (and I've already tried this, it's quite fun). Eg. Critical Surge, Streak, Dark Exchange, Dizzy Swing, Haunting Curse, Mages Wrath, Executioner. Now they have 2 executes, 1 is delayed, the other is instant. It's a completely different playstyle, but it has it's drawbacks so it won't be for everyone leaving room for build diversity still.
I get your point here, but the way I see it, everyone already is a jack of all trades in their respective roles. The only real gameplay-affecting factor is whether you're tank, healer, or damage. There's very little variety within each of those.
Hybrids definitely are better than they were, but I'd say they're just now not throwing in vet content. I'm not sure they can really excel yet.
I am curious about the build you mention here though. The 2 executes thing seems strange to me, as they're both instant cast and instant damage (Wrath is only not instant the one time you use it before the threshold), but they're also both just weaker on a hybrid build.
I should also note I'm viewing this primarily from a PvE perspective. If you guys are more PvP oriented, that will definitely make a difference.
Edited by Ksariyu on September 28, 2021 10:47AM2 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yeah. Uh, yeah, that's pretty true, uh. . . yeah, that's true. Yeah.
I've made like six posts about this now. It just makes more sense to have a single damage stat and a single crit stat.Combine all buffs, combine all stats, homogenization for everyone and everything! Hallelujah!!
Stx You make this same "joke" every time this gets mentioned, so let me ask you this. What depth is being provided by the mag/stam divide? What would you lose by merging these stats?MashmalloMan wrote: »No thanks. As stx put it.. that wouldn't be good.
Right now there is still a distinction via Resources/Resource Regen which happens to be present on armor too. Spell/Weapon damage bonuses aren't completely hybrid as Enchants on Jewelry still go one way or the other.
There has to be some downsides to being a "hybrid", a small decrease in damage via lower resource pool and maybe 600-400 less damage via enchants is a pretty solid middle ground.
MashmalloMan Same question as for Stx kind of. Why does there need to be a DPS loss for being hybrid? How does that make the game more fun?
The primary depth between Stamina and Magicka is that it creates more viable builds.
If we were all homogenized, you'd have about 18+ builds in PVE: Sorc tank, Sorc DD, Sorc Healer. Dk Tank, DK DD, DK Healer. You can see where this is going. Not every class can fill every role well, but it can generally do it.
Instead, we've got close to twice that. MagSorc DD/Stam Sorc DD. MagDK Tank/Stam DK Tank. StamWarden and Stam Necro even have a little group healing capacity, but even if we leave out healers, Stamina classes add roughly 12 more viable builds to ESO's PVE.
That's not even touching on PVP, where you'd better believe the stamina/magicka divide adds a lot of depth to the combat. Stam/Mag builds wear different armor, use different skill combos and weapons, and in large groups, support the group in different ways. If you homogenized us down to using the same resource for combat, you promptly wind up with most players using the same BIS gear, weapons, and skills. It would deeply limit the diversity that's currently possible in PVP.
I'd like to turn the question around on you. What depth is provided by merging Stamina and Magicka to compensate for losing build diversity?Edited by VaranisArano on September 28, 2021 11:12AM0 -
Ksariyu✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »The primary depth between Stamina and Magicka is that it creates more viable builds.
If we were all homogenized, you'd have about 18+ builds in PVE: Sorc tank, Sorc DD, Sorc Healer. Dk Tank, DK DD, DK Healer. You can see where this is going. Not every class can fill every role well, but it can generally do it.
Instead, we've got close to twice that. MagSorc DD/Stam Sorc DD. MagDK Tank/Stam DK Tank. StamWarden and Stam Necro even have a little group healing capacity, but even if we leave out healers, Stamina classes add roughly 12 more viable builds to ESO's PVE.
That's not even touching on PVP, where you'd better believe the stamina/magicka divide adds a lot of depth to the combat. Stam/Mag builds wear different armor, use different skill combos and weapons, and in large groups, support the group in different ways. If you homogenized us down to using the same resource for combat, you promptly wind up with most players using the same BIS gear, weapons, and skills. It would deeply limit the diversity that's currently possible in PVP.
I'd like to turn the question around on you. What depth is provided by merging Stamina and Magicka to compensate for losing build diversity?
I'd like to clarify one thing: I do not think Stamina and Magicka should be merged, just the offensive bonuses (And just remove max resource scaling honestly).
The gain, I'll admit, is purely aesthetic for me. I think it's equally cool to play a pure steel knight and a warrior who draws powers from Oblivion, which is why I think the push for hybrid is cool (Not at the sacrifice of pure builds, just as an equal option). One of the main themes of The Elder Scrolls has always been the ability to choose who you are and this only helps that.
But the real argument here I guess is about what build diversity really means. Stats provide artificial build diversity, just flat out. No matter where you choose to put that arbitrary stopping point, players will always find the absolute best setup and everything else will be "useless" to high end players. Regarding this, I do think there better ways to create the same "depth" without the Stam/Mag divide. However, I think that gameplay diversity is what's really gotten "dumbed down" over time, and is what I think hurts overall build diversity the most. While yes, there are technically 30 meta builds right now, they're not really "different" in any meaningful way. They use mostly the same sets, a lot of the same skills, and every build within each role plays nearly identical, as I mentioned in the previous post.
The main problem honestly has nothing to do with stats, but rather the mechanics and the way skills are designed. Whether or not that will ever get addressed is something I couldn't say, and there's no doubt it'd involve some serious reworks to some core designs, but I think it'd be worth it.
3 -
KhajiitLivesMatter✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Yeah. Uh, yeah, that's pretty true, uh. . . yeah, that's true. Yeah.
I've made like six posts about this now. It just makes more sense to have a single damage stat and a single crit stat.Combine all buffs, combine all stats, homogenization for everyone and everything! Hallelujah!!
Stx You make this same "joke" every time this gets mentioned, so let me ask you this. What depth is being provided by the mag/stam divide? What would you lose by merging these stats?MashmalloMan wrote: »No thanks. As stx put it.. that wouldn't be good.
Right now there is still a distinction via Resources/Resource Regen which happens to be present on armor too. Spell/Weapon damage bonuses aren't completely hybrid as Enchants on Jewelry still go one way or the other.
There has to be some downsides to being a "hybrid", a small decrease in damage via lower resource pool and maybe 600-400 less damage via enchants is a pretty solid middle ground.
MashmalloMan Same question as for Stx kind of. Why does there need to be a DPS loss for being hybrid? How does that make the game more fun?
The primary depth between Stamina and Magicka is that it creates more viable builds.
If we were all homogenized, you'd have about 18+ builds in PVE: Sorc tank, Sorc DD, Sorc Healer. Dk Tank, DK DD, DK Healer. You can see where this is going. Not every class can fill every role well, but it can generally do it.
Instead, we've got close to twice that. MagSorc DD/Stam Sorc DD. MagDK Tank/Stam DK Tank. StamWarden and Stam Necro even have a little group healing capacity, but even if we leave out healers, Stamina classes add roughly 12 more viable builds to ESO's PVE.
That's not even touching on PVP, where you'd better believe the stamina/magicka divide adds a lot of depth to the combat. Stam/Mag builds wear different armor, use different skill combos and weapons, and in large groups, support the group in different ways. If you homogenized us down to using the same resource for combat, you promptly wind up with most players using the same BIS gear, weapons, and skills. It would deeply limit the diversity that's currently possible in PVP.
I'd like to turn the question around on you. What depth is provided by merging Stamina and Magicka to compensate for losing build diversity?
u speak like the boni arnt already the same which they basicly are - look at my screen from above
and there is no mag and stam tank there is only tank as role lol
(and btw i m not for merging the resource to just crit chance / crit dmg / weap dmg / armor / pen)0 -
Syrpynt✭✭✭Yes, I agree with the merge for:
• power
• crit chance
• crit damage
• penetration
But I also firmly stand on keeping separate:
• Resource pools
• Healing done vs damage done
Healing done and critical heals need to be separate from damage done and critical damage. Why? Because Critical Healer/DD is the most broken "hybrid" role this game has and has been for far too long now. The stronger your attacks are, so are your heals? That's broke AF! Why play ANYTHING else?
Offense
vs
Defense
vs
Healing
The triangle where you can choose 1 primary, and a 2 weaker secondaries.
If you choose to have invest into defense, your offense and healing should be half of your primary. This gives everyone a weaknesses and strengths, if you don't like your weaknesses, change your build. If you are never happy with having a weakness, then idk what to tell you: maybe you're overly competitive and need to chill.1 -
Andre_Noir✭✭✭✭Because if there was zero dps loss for being a hybrid, there would be zero point in playing a pure build? The point of a hybrid is to gain access to both magicka and stamina damage or healing skills, giving you a much larger toolkit to choose from. But gaining all those extra tools should come with some sacrifice.
Homogenization takes away the best part of RPGs.. putting together synergistic, fun, functional builds. If gear has all the same stats, if everyone has the same buffs.. all your choices become meaningless when making a character.
LOL check any stamina class in pvp. Right now they are using magicka pool for buffs/escapes and stamina for everything else at the time magicka users struggling to use even main resource due to high costs. Creation of "stamina" is the worst mistake made in this game0 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Andre_Noir wrote: »Because if there was zero dps loss for being a hybrid, there would be zero point in playing a pure build? The point of a hybrid is to gain access to both magicka and stamina damage or healing skills, giving you a much larger toolkit to choose from. But gaining all those extra tools should come with some sacrifice.
Homogenization takes away the best part of RPGs.. putting together synergistic, fun, functional builds. If gear has all the same stats, if everyone has the same buffs.. all your choices become meaningless when making a character.
LOL check any stamina class in pvp. Right now they are using magicka pool for buffs/escapes and stamina for everything else at the time magicka users struggling to use even main resource due to high costs. Creation of "stamina" is the worst mistake made in this game
Your bias is showing.. I've made Magicka builds where it's actually way easier to roll dodge, break free and block because your main skills don't take from your Stamina pool while a Stamina build needs to juggle their core combat skills with those same defensive abilities. There are pro's and con's to both build choices and to say it's simply easier for Stamina does an injustice to the way the game has changed over time.
For example, I would of maybe seen an arguement before many of the recent changes to Armor and base Character stats and even before Sugar Skulls existed, but now we don't even need to use a food like Sugar Skulls to get higher off resources, you start with way more for doing nothing.
I have a Magicka Templar build that is using 5 Medium, 2 Light. I've got 17k Stamina that is never touched meaning I can almost always sprint, roll dodge and break free if i get attacked. I'm speedy, I have high spell damage for stronger heals. To offset the sustain issues of High Magicka costing skills, I have Food/Mundus. Every once and awhile 1 heavy on a resto staff from 28m away will restore half my magicka pool.
It's just 2 different ways of playing and I no longer see any argument that Magicka players use to have being valid because it comes from a time where you couldn't use Medium armor, you only had 10k Stamina and sprinting costed a crap ton more.PC Beta - 1900+ CP
Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit
Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit0 -
KhajiitLivesMatter✭✭✭✭Yes, I agree with the merge for:
• power
• crit chance
• crit damage
• penetration
But I also firmly stand on keeping separate:
• Resource pools
• Healing done vs damage done
Healing done and critical heals need to be separate from damage done and critical damage. Why? Because Critical Healer/DD is the most broken "hybrid" role this game has and has been for far too long now. The stronger your attacks are, so are your heals? That's broke AF! Why play ANYTHING else?
Offense
vs
Defense
vs
Healing
The triangle where you can choose 1 primary, and a 2 weaker secondaries.
If you choose to have invest into defense, your offense and healing should be half of your primary. This gives everyone a weaknesses and strengths, if you don't like your weaknesses, change your build. If you are never happy with having a weakness, then idk what to tell you: maybe you're overly competitive and need to chill.
atm healing scales with:
max resource pool
spell power
crit healing
atm dmg scales with
max resource pool
spell power
crit dmg
penetration
so already 2/3 stats for healing are the same for dmg and why i want crit dmg and healing to be merged is pretty easy: there are many sets which buff ur crit DMG but not ur crit HEALING but if i just would take a set with spell power it would buff both
->specily speaking of pvp here where the other stats are better cause of that
and its pretty annoying for example that a sword will give u spell dmg which increase dmg and healing but axes only give crit dmg no healing+0 -
Syrpynt✭✭✭KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »atm healing scales with:
max resource pool
spell power
crit healing
atm dmg scales with:
max resource pool
spell power
crit dmg
penetration
so already 2/3 stats for healing are the same for dmg and why i want crit dmg and healing to be merged is pretty easy: there are many sets which buff ur crit DMG but not ur crit HEALING but if i just would take a set with spell power it would buff both
->specily speaking of pvp here where the other stats are better cause of that
and its pretty annoying for example that a sword will give u spell dmg which increase dmg and healing but axes only give crit dmg no healing+
Yes, I already know that. What I was saying was, it SHOULD be:
Healing to scale with:- Max resource pool
- Bonus healing given
Light-Medium-Heavy attack and Ability Damage to scale with:- "Power" (Spell power, weapon power)
- Crit chance + crit damage bonus
- Penetration
Notice how there's no crossover. You want to heal through a bunch of attacks like a healer? Then play a healer with restoration/healer back-bar and use sets that give bonuses to resource pools and healing bonuses. You want to maximize your damage? Then worry less about healing until you get to content that requires a different armor/weapon set and abilities.
With how healing and damage currently crossover, the healer+dps hybrid roles are broken. They can survive anything, especially if it's using heavy armor with the resource returns.0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes. There are additional steps that they can take in future updates to further homogenize combat and vastly expand the number of, but not importance of, builds.0 -
KhajiitLivesMatter✭✭✭✭KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »atm healing scales with:
max resource pool
spell power
crit healing
atm dmg scales with:
max resource pool
spell power
crit dmg
penetration
so already 2/3 stats for healing are the same for dmg and why i want crit dmg and healing to be merged is pretty easy: there are many sets which buff ur crit DMG but not ur crit HEALING but if i just would take a set with spell power it would buff both
->specily speaking of pvp here where the other stats are better cause of that
and its pretty annoying for example that a sword will give u spell dmg which increase dmg and healing but axes only give crit dmg no healing+
Yes, I already know that. What I was saying was, it SHOULD be:
Healing to scale with:- Max resource pool
- Bonus healing given
Light-Medium-Heavy attack and Ability Damage to scale with:- "Power" (Spell power, weapon power)
- Crit chance + crit damage bonus
- Penetration
Notice how there's no crossover. You want to heal through a bunch of attacks like a healer? Then play a healer with restoration/healer back-bar and use sets that give bonuses to resource pools and healing bonuses. You want to maximize your damage? Then worry less about healing until you get to content that requires a different armor/weapon set and abilities.
With how healing and damage currently crossover, the healer+dps hybrid roles are broken. They can survive anything, especially if it's using heavy armor with the resource returns.
heavy armor gives u way less resources than medium / light
and yea would be better the way u described it but currently that is not how it works0 -
Syrpynt✭✭✭KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »
heavy armor gives u way less resources than medium / light
Resources or stat boosts? I agree with stat boosts, but resources can be made up for heavy armor crafted with dps/healer sets.
4 Heavy and 1 light Julianos with 2 more light armor focused around critical chance healing and damage --kinda broken. The only ones who don't want to say it are the ones who don't want that part of the game to change. yes, the crit from the missing the other 4 pieces that could be light armor, are made up with the bonus to health, healing taken, and resource regen from heavy attacks and when you take damage.
"Crit is king, crit is king!" Bleh. Time for a new era of diversity in builds.Edited by Syrpynt on September 29, 2021 4:21PM0 -
KhajiitLivesMatter✭✭✭✭KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »
heavy armor gives u way less resources than medium / light
Resources or stat boosts? I agree with stat boosts, but resources can be made up for heavy armor crafted with dps/healer sets.
4 Heavy and 1 light Julianos with 2 more light armor focused around critical chance healing and damage --kinda broken. The only ones who don't want to say it are the ones who don't want that part of the game to change. yes, the crit from the missing the other 4 pieces that could be light armor, are made up with the bonus to health, healing taken, and resource regen from heavy attacks and when you take damage.
"Crit is king, crit is king!" Bleh. Time for a new era of diversity in builds.
light armor gives u 4% mag reg and 2% reduced cost / piece thats way more than 108 resources / 4sec
btw what are u speakin about pve or pvp? in pvp i dont know 1 person julianos and in pve i know no dd using 4 heavy ?
crit in pve is atm to op but does it rly matter there? no it doesnt pvp will always use the stuff which is most op - if spell power has a larger effect than all will build for insane amount of spell power....
and in pvp crit is fine cause u have crit resistance
" but resources can be made up for heavy armor crafted with dps/healer sets."
i think its more useful to craft / use tanky sets in light / medium cause the passives are better
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Syrpynt✭✭✭KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »light armor gives u 4% mag reg and 2% reduced cost / piece thats way more than 108 resources / 4sec
btw what are u speakin about pve or pvp? in pvp i dont know 1 person julianos and in pve i know no dd using 4 heavy ?
crit in pve is atm to op but does it rly matter there? no it doesnt pvp will always use the stuff which is most op - if spell power has a larger effect than all will build for insane amount of spell power....
and in pvp crit is fine cause u have crit resistance
" but resources can be made up for heavy armor crafted with dps/healer sets."
i think its more useful to craft / use tanky sets in light / medium cause the passives are better
4,000 magicka spell and your character has 1,800 magicka regen for both cases before the 4 pieces of armor, and ignoring all other buffs since they would be the same between the two scenarios--
With 4 light armor is:
* 3,680 Spell cost
* 2,088 Magicka Regen
With 4 heavy armor (and while taking damage) is:
* 4,000 spell cost
* 1,908 Magicka regen
Heavy armor also gets the bonus for heavy attack regen (so paired with a restoration staff it regens a lot more magicka too) Really all I am talking about is significant survivability, at a small cost of some damage.
So back to the point: Heavy + Critical sets is what breaks OP healer+dps combos.
I'll be quiet though because I'm sure more changes will come to how healing and damage are calculated in future development.0 -
ealdwin✭✭✭✭✭
✭KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »atm healing scales with:
max resource pool
spell power
crit healing
atm dmg scales with:
max resource pool
spell power
crit dmg
penetration
so already 2/3 stats for healing are the same for dmg and why i want crit dmg and healing to be merged is pretty easy: there are many sets which buff ur crit DMG but not ur crit HEALING but if i just would take a set with spell power it would buff both
->specily speaking of pvp here where the other stats are better cause of that
and its pretty annoying for example that a sword will give u spell dmg which increase dmg and healing but axes only give crit dmg no healing+
Yes, I already know that. What I was saying was, it SHOULD be:
Healing to scale with:- Max resource pool
- Bonus healing given
Light-Medium-Heavy attack and Ability Damage to scale with:- "Power" (Spell power, weapon power)
- Crit chance + crit damage bonus
- Penetration
Notice how there's no crossover. You want to heal through a bunch of attacks like a healer? Then play a healer with restoration/healer back-bar and use sets that give bonuses to resource pools and healing bonuses. You want to maximize your damage? Then worry less about healing until you get to content that requires a different armor/weapon set and abilities.
With how healing and damage currently crossover, the healer+dps hybrid roles are broken. They can survive anything, especially if it's using heavy armor with the resource returns.
I would honestly be fine with those changes, so long as there are still options for creating a reasonable blend of decent/viable damage and healing, for those areas where a dedicated healer is not guaranteed or an option (ex. Maelstrom or non-premade BG group), whether that be through "healing for % of damage done" options, or builds that can have reasonable amounts of stats (the viable versus optimal distinction here).
(Note: I will admit a bias here, as I do get a kick out of/find a nice challenge in attempting to solo those normal dungeons and group arenas that I can get away with doing so in. I'm not trying to say I should be able to breeze through such content, but I like that if I'm up to the challenge there's at least a shot at it. I like the challenge, what can I say.)1 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The simple reason why Zenimax does not eliminate the dual system is for balance reasons. I doubt that changes anytime soon.0 -
Syrpynt✭✭✭
I would honestly be fine with those changes, so long as there are still options for creating a reasonable blend of decent/viable damage and healing, for those areas where a dedicated healer is not guaranteed or an option (ex. Maelstrom or non-premade BG group), whether that be through "healing for % of damage done" options, or builds that can have reasonable amounts of stats (the viable versus optimal distinction here).
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Andre_Noir✭✭✭✭MashmalloMan wrote: »Andre_Noir wrote: »Because if there was zero dps loss for being a hybrid, there would be zero point in playing a pure build? The point of a hybrid is to gain access to both magicka and stamina damage or healing skills, giving you a much larger toolkit to choose from. But gaining all those extra tools should come with some sacrifice.
Homogenization takes away the best part of RPGs.. putting together synergistic, fun, functional builds. If gear has all the same stats, if everyone has the same buffs.. all your choices become meaningless when making a character.
LOL check any stamina class in pvp. Right now they are using magicka pool for buffs/escapes and stamina for everything else at the time magicka users struggling to use even main resource due to high costs. Creation of "stamina" is the worst mistake made in this game
Your bias is showing.. I've made Magicka builds where it's actually way easier to roll dodge, break free and block because your main skills don't take from your Stamina pool while a Stamina build needs to juggle their core combat skills with those same defensive abilities.
Did you ever try add some recovery instead of brainless dmg ?
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MEBengalsFan2001✭✭✭✭✭KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »yea so basicly if NEARLY every sources now gives u weap and spell dmg why even have 2 stats just delete them and create a single dmg stat
wouldnt change much and would make it a bit simpler
also while we are at it remove crti dmg / healing cause for crit chance its crit healing and crit dmg too so why split it with the dmg and healing - would also balance something like axes which atm only provide crit dmg and no healing while sword provide more dmg and healing
edit nearly forgot the mesion that the diffrence between mag and stam crit chance is useless to if NEARLY every source provide both of it
Maybe that is there long term goal.0