Might as well.

Here we go.

Just combine all buffs in the game into one buff while we're at it. Let's save some time!

So basically you don't want to sacrifice anything to run your hybrid build.

You can get everything you want with 2 slots on the bar. Your mag bar has degen and inner light. Your stam bar has rally and hunter.

Oh but you don't want to eat 2 skill slots on each bar? You are making the choice to mash these things together in the name of "build diversity." It shouldn't be so easy.

If you mash those buffs up, then we'll enter a hybrid meta because pure build will cease to have any advantage. But hey, players can enjoy their theorycrafting which is another name for figuring out the easiest way to exploit the engine.

Pots is more the issue than skills for PvE.

Things currently standing in the way of "hybrid" builds:

• pots are for mag or stam dps, not both
• damage skills scaling off both damage and resource stats
• jewel enchantments only for spell or weapon damage

Right now some builds are getting around the major crit and damage buffs by slotting one of the guild skills and getting the other from a pot, but it's not exactly ideal, especially for classes like sorcs who have very limited bar space.

I think the scaling change is coming. It's been foreshadowed by the changes to proc sets. I think damage skills will scale off weapon/spell damage and support skills will scale off max resource. Light attacks will probably continue to scale off both.
I really think this one is coming in the next update where people can allocate their regen and attributes according to what skills they use, which also explains the "stam whip" problems where stamdks just don't have enough mag to sustain whip as a spammable.

Jewellery enchants should have been combined this patch.

KingExecration wrote: »

Inner light would never be slotted again since max mag is already dog. Camo hunter would be incredibly overloaded aswell. Considering it already outshines class abilities I’d prefer not seeing camo hunter ran on literally everything mag and stam in pvp.

make it the other morph, the one that no one runs.

At least Critical chance should be merged

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

So basically you don't want to sacrifice anything to run your hybrid build.

You can get everything you want with 2 slots on the bar. Your mag bar has degen and inner light. Your stam bar has rally and hunter.

Oh but you don't want to eat 2 skill slots on each bar? You are making the choice to mash these things together in the name of "build diversity." It shouldn't be so easy.

If you mash those buffs up, then we'll enter a hybrid meta because pure build will cease to have any advantage. But hey, players can enjoy their theorycrafting which is another name for figuring out the easiest way to exploit the engine.

Hybrid builds technically have to sacrifice the most compared to normal builds, it's not like the idea proposed would eliminate that. Enchants, attributes, mundus, and food are all potential damage sacrifices for a hybrid build. Pure builds would still be better.

At least Critical chance should be merged

ESO probably is the only mmo with seperated critical chance

The point of a hybrid is not to be better than a pure class; it is to be equal while using different abilities than the same Uppercut/Reverse Slice/Dawnbreaker combos that typical melee builds use, or the same Unstable Wall of Elements/Mystic Orb/Degeneration combo that typical mag builds use.

Imagine being a hybrid Sorc who uses Crystal Fragments, Daedric Prey, and Greater Storm Atronach while using a Greatsword to Wrecking Blow and Stampede targets. You still have the same 12 ability slots as a pure class, but today you do strictly inferior damage with worse sustain just to better fit the identity/aesthetic of your class or playstyle.

In some cases, like DK's Inferno, both hybrid and pure builds benefit: both morphs now grant Major Savagery and Prophecy as part of hybridization, and that gave way for FoO to gain extra damage with a third fireball.

I really hope we see more changes in this direction. In theory, every ability should have been Magicka-based in the first place, and Stamina should have only been for LA/HAs, dodging, breaking free, blocking, and sprinting. This would solve the remaining issues with sustain and resource-based ability scaling for hybrids without affecting the performance of pure classes.

Vaoh wrote: »

This would be the logical next step with the hybridization of set bonuses. Hopefully we would get new morphs with actual new effects instead of generic buffs too.

Lotus Flower is a great example. One morph gives spell crit, the other gives weapon crit. I’d much rather one of them gives both crit buffs while the other increases the duration or amount of targets healed.

lotus flower and it's morphs are incredibly uninspiring. even if one healed more targets and the other gave both crits it'd still be boring.

Mapekz wrote: »

The point of a hybrid is not to be better than a pure class; it is to be equal while using different abilities than the same Uppercut/Reverse Slice/Dawnbreaker combos that typical melee builds use, or the same Unstable Wall of Elements/Mystic Orb/Degeneration combo that typical mag builds use.

Imagine being a hybrid Sorc who uses Crystal Fragments, Daedric Prey, and Greater Storm Atronach while using a Greatsword to Wrecking Blow and Stampede targets. You still have the same 12 ability slots as a pure class, but today you do strictly inferior damage with worse sustain just to better fit the identity/aesthetic of your class or playstyle.

In some cases, like DK's Inferno, both hybrid and pure builds benefit: both morphs now grant Major Savagery and Prophecy as part of hybridization, and that gave way for FoO to gain extra damage with a third fireball.

I really hope we see more changes in this direction. In theory, every ability should have been Magicka-based in the first place, and Stamina should have only been for LA/HAs, dodging, breaking free, blocking, and sprinting. This would solve the remaining issues with sustain and resource-based ability scaling for hybrids without affecting the performance of pure classes.

What you are failing to note is, some skills are just better than others. Look at the damage that winter's revenge deals for a mag warden, it's insane. Same with volley, orb, etc.

Being hybrid gives you access to all skills, so you can combine volley with winter's revenge for instance, where a stam warden couldn't.

Hybrids cannot be allowed to have the same statistical power as a pure, it simply won't be balanced.

kojou wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Mapekz wrote: »

The point of a hybrid is not to be better than a pure class; it is to be equal while using different abilities than the same Uppercut/Reverse Slice/Dawnbreaker combos that typical melee builds use, or the same Unstable Wall of Elements/Mystic Orb/Degeneration combo that typical mag builds use.

Imagine being a hybrid Sorc who uses Crystal Fragments, Daedric Prey, and Greater Storm Atronach while using a Greatsword to Wrecking Blow and Stampede targets. You still have the same 12 ability slots as a pure class, but today you do strictly inferior damage with worse sustain just to better fit the identity/aesthetic of your class or playstyle.

In some cases, like DK's Inferno, both hybrid and pure builds benefit: both morphs now grant Major Savagery and Prophecy as part of hybridization, and that gave way for FoO to gain extra damage with a third fireball.

I really hope we see more changes in this direction. In theory, every ability should have been Magicka-based in the first place, and Stamina should have only been for LA/HAs, dodging, breaking free, blocking, and sprinting. This would solve the remaining issues with sustain and resource-based ability scaling for hybrids without affecting the performance of pure classes.

What you are failing to note is, some skills are just better than others. Look at the damage that winter's revenge deals for a mag warden, it's insane. Same with volley, orb, etc.

Being hybrid gives you access to all skills, so you can combine volley with winter's revenge for instance, where a stam warden couldn't.

Hybrids cannot be allowed to have the same statistical power as a pure, it simply won't be balanced.

I use Winter's Revenge on my Stamina Warden on live...

Stamina wardens have been using it for a while and now magicka wardens are using sub assault because it's far better than fissure. I'd really like for there to be another frost damage skill on the class and for deep fissure to deal frost damage. Not only because that's an amazingly simple yet effective idea for the health of frost dps playstyle but I'd also like to pretend that zos isn't ruining subclass identity with all the hybridisation stuff.

kojou wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Mapekz wrote: »

The point of a hybrid is not to be better than a pure class; it is to be equal while using different abilities than the same Uppercut/Reverse Slice/Dawnbreaker combos that typical melee builds use, or the same Unstable Wall of Elements/Mystic Orb/Degeneration combo that typical mag builds use.

Imagine being a hybrid Sorc who uses Crystal Fragments, Daedric Prey, and Greater Storm Atronach while using a Greatsword to Wrecking Blow and Stampede targets. You still have the same 12 ability slots as a pure class, but today you do strictly inferior damage with worse sustain just to better fit the identity/aesthetic of your class or playstyle.

In some cases, like DK's Inferno, both hybrid and pure builds benefit: both morphs now grant Major Savagery and Prophecy as part of hybridization, and that gave way for FoO to gain extra damage with a third fireball.

I really hope we see more changes in this direction. In theory, every ability should have been Magicka-based in the first place, and Stamina should have only been for LA/HAs, dodging, breaking free, blocking, and sprinting. This would solve the remaining issues with sustain and resource-based ability scaling for hybrids without affecting the performance of pure classes.

What you are failing to note is, some skills are just better than others. Look at the damage that winter's revenge deals for a mag warden, it's insane. Same with volley, orb, etc.

Being hybrid gives you access to all skills, so you can combine volley with winter's revenge for instance, where a stam warden couldn't.

Hybrids cannot be allowed to have the same statistical power as a pure, it simply won't be balanced.

I use Winter's Revenge on my Stamina Warden on live...

And you rightfully do less damage than a magden. You can hybrid right now. What some players want is for you to do the same damage as a hybrid as any pure build. That's bs

kojou wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Mapekz wrote: »

The point of a hybrid is not to be better than a pure class; it is to be equal while using different abilities than the same Uppercut/Reverse Slice/Dawnbreaker combos that typical melee builds use, or the same Unstable Wall of Elements/Mystic Orb/Degeneration combo that typical mag builds use.

Imagine being a hybrid Sorc who uses Crystal Fragments, Daedric Prey, and Greater Storm Atronach while using a Greatsword to Wrecking Blow and Stampede targets. You still have the same 12 ability slots as a pure class, but today you do strictly inferior damage with worse sustain just to better fit the identity/aesthetic of your class or playstyle.

In some cases, like DK's Inferno, both hybrid and pure builds benefit: both morphs now grant Major Savagery and Prophecy as part of hybridization, and that gave way for FoO to gain extra damage with a third fireball.

I really hope we see more changes in this direction. In theory, every ability should have been Magicka-based in the first place, and Stamina should have only been for LA/HAs, dodging, breaking free, blocking, and sprinting. This would solve the remaining issues with sustain and resource-based ability scaling for hybrids without affecting the performance of pure classes.

What you are failing to note is, some skills are just better than others. Look at the damage that winter's revenge deals for a mag warden, it's insane. Same with volley, orb, etc.

Being hybrid gives you access to all skills, so you can combine volley with winter's revenge for instance, where a stam warden couldn't.

Hybrids cannot be allowed to have the same statistical power as a pure, it simply won't be balanced.

I use Winter's Revenge on my Stamina Warden on live...

And you rightfully do less damage than a magden. You can hybrid right now. What some players want is for you to do the same damage as a hybrid as any pure build. That's bs

I honestly don't understand why that bothers you.

I haven't checked the damage value of Winter's Revenge specifically against my Magicka Warden, but overall the build does better DPS than my Magicka Warden, but my Magicka Warden (with a staff) can do it ranged, so it is better for most content. Especially hard modes that punish you for being in melee range.

I am actually hoping the whole Magicka vs Stamina vs Hybrid debate goes away entirely because of these changes and we just play whatever is optimal for the class.

Yes everyone will play what is optimal on a class. You hit the nail on the head, though you may not have meant to. Homogenization will not lead to variety. It will do the opposite.

As you point out, you can hybrid right now. But a mag skill on a stam character should not hit as hard or harder than the same mag skill on a mag character.

I think there is a need to define what "better" means in the case of hybridization. I feel like people here are either talking about PVP or PVE perspective but without mentioning it. And there are huge differences between the two perspectives.

In PVE, hybrid build will seek to do the optimal DPS will having the ability to sustain and not being killed by mecanics. I think (even tho I don't do pve, so I'll leave the nuance to the experts) there isn't a lots of build diversity in this playstyle anyway since there is most of the time an optimal setup to maximize even by 1% the DPS output.

And even if there is some variances, let's be honest here, you don't have more than 3/4 sets as a DPS most of the time beside of your traditionnal build right ? At some point, even if hybridization bring some build diversity, an optimal setup will surely appear. So I think we need to focus on the first 3 aspects for the PVE perspective to make hybrid build efficient and relevant for end game content. Since lots of classes already struggle with bar space, having this constrain for an hybrid setup already makes this kind of setup irrelevant. So combining major buffs would be a massive step in that regard.

From the PVP perspective, hybridization would make a huge difference. You need to build for a lot more things without having to be optimal in one specific (you can, but this is not mandatory) department because you can compensate with the others. And this is why build diversity is a very important aspect of PVP.

Currently, hybrid build are marginal because you have to sacrifice too much. I tried lots of different hybrid setups on most of the classes, and it was either impossible to sustain/survive, or the damage output was trash while not having better survivability.

Bar space was also a huge problem. It's very cool to be able to use both stam and mag abilities, but you still have only 12 slot, including ults. So in a lot of case, you can't really exploit the strength of your setup because it simply don't fit the little space you have for it.

As an example, I saw someone in this thread talking about hybrid sorc in PVP being able to dizzy swing a person while using mage wrath for some "ungodly damage". I tried this setup, and it was one of my most successful attempt for an hybrid build.

My bars were as follow :
Front : dizzy, executioner, curse, mage wrath, streak, crystal weapon and Dawnbreaker as ult
Back : Dark deal, vigor, rapid regen, power surge, huricane and Atro as Ult

The full damage combo was very deadly, and the healing power pretty good. But you need to pilled up a lots of single target skills on one person, then have the time to channel dizzy swing into a DB. The curse + mage wrath combo work for magsorc because every single attack is ranged and instant cast. But dizzy is melee and channeled. Db also have a cast time and is melee as well. As a solo pvp'er, I didn't had lots of opportunities to do the entire combo since it require a good timing and can be interrupted easily while being very risky since it requires you to be close. In 1V1, peoples see it comming. In 1vX, you don't have the time. In Xv1, it's uneffective.

With this setup, you don't have lots of crits since you can't slot camo hunter or inner light (and you need tri stats potion for your sustain), so surge doesn't heals you a lot. You don't have the burst heal and the sustain of rally. Casting 2 healing abilities takes you 2 global cooldown, and only remains 4 seconds (rapid regen, then vigor, so you have 4 second to do something else) for a heal maybe 20/30% stronger than a full stam setup with only one vigor cast. And you need to pack a lot of damage sets to do little more damage than a traditionnal setup while being way squishier.

So from something that appeared pretty promissing on the paper, it came to something just fun, but pretty mediocre in general. It was with surge giving both brutality and sorcery, and it was the most successful setup I came with.

There is already lots of constraint for an hybrid setup. Giving access to most classes to major buff to free up some bar space and reduce these constraint would be a big help for this archetype.

(This response is way longer than I originaly thought it would be, sorry about that 😅)

@Oakiyo You should try your build again, but honestly.. simplify it. You said yourself, it's too much setup. Mag Sorcs can get away with that setup because they're ranged, but if you try doing that in melee range as a Stam Sorc, you're just killing time and you need to outsustain someone like a DK, Templar, Necro or Warden.. all of which are slower, but deadlier in sustained fights.

I went through the same process and realization with a Sorc Hybrid. You've got basically 2 delayed burst skills and 2 executes 1 of which is delayed too.. thats 3 delayed skills in a 4 second window. It's just too much coupled with Dizzy Swing Spam. Sounds like frustration.

Instead, go for DW because Whirling Blades is basically a spammable and execute in one, it's also undodgeable which is why Dizzy/Executioner are so tempermental. With how many skills you're using, this would save bar space for something like Camo Hunter.

Consider whether or not you like Mages Wrath to begin with. I know it's tempting to use, but besides setting it up from far away for a delayed execute, it's a very crappy spammable execute in melee range because of the travel time. It becomes fairly easy to dodge and I found myself wasting like 3 GCDs just trying to apply it to people sometimes, especially if you're in melee, they can see your combo a mile away.

Haunting Curse is just BAE.. Undodgeable, super easy to time like Warden's Scorch or Necro's BB.

So suggestion.. Use Dual Wield.. Setup is Curse -> Crystal Weapon -> Streak/Dawnbreaker -> Whirling Blades Spam.
Or.. Setup is Crystal Weapon -> Curse -> Meteor -> Streak -> Whirling Blades Spam.

Setup 2 has Crystal Weapon first, making the timing very tight by the time you reach your target. You would need to be pretty precise and they can't dodge your first light attack or the duration will run out, but that is what Streak is for. So most of the time, just use Crystal Weapon after Curse, but if you're doing a Meteor combo you can try to squeeze it in before as long as you can guarantee the distance/stun.

Mages Wrath works well on a Mag Sorc because they're always at range and they're not tripple dipping with another Delayed skill like Crystal Weapon.

katorga wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

So basically you don't want to sacrifice anything to run your hybrid build.

You can get everything you want with 2 slots on the bar. Your mag bar has degen and inner light. Your stam bar has rally and hunter.

Oh but you don't want to eat 2 skill slots on each bar? You are making the choice to mash these things together in the name of "build diversity." It shouldn't be so easy.

If you mash those buffs up, then we'll enter a hybrid meta because pure build will cease to have any advantage. But hey, players can enjoy their theorycrafting which is another name for figuring out the easiest way to exploit the engine.

You will be running a "hybrid" build whether you like it or not. .

I think that is the entire point. Make the game easier for new players. How many new players have you seen with mis-matched weapons, sets, morphs, with no clue about mag/stam and whatnot? At least they won't be totally gimped.

Yes it would be horrible for people to have to learn how to play. Let's just throw out set bonuses together. You get a mana pool and health pool and you just mash buttons like action rpgs.