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Why is the PVP population so low?
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Jameson18✭✭✭✭✭PVP population is so low because ZOS doesn't release PVP content.
I played EQ since launch. It never had "tons" of PVP servers. It had at most 4 . I'm trying to find earlier info but it also only had ONE PvP server since at least 2008. Edit: They merged the 4 PVP servers into one server (out of many) in 2005.
Right now it has ONE PvP server out of TWENTY FOUR servers.
You mean after they started adding procs? (People seriously made RL$$ off multi boxing toons to farm primal weapons for people)
EQ was effectively decimated by World of Warcraft.0 -
BalticBlues✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭PvP Pro Player about the recent patches:
"The Ultimate Desaster when it comes to balancing"
starting at 6:00, about Hrothgar at 7:10, result at 8:40:
"Sets like Hrothgar have no counter [...] all skill is eliminated from the game"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSXfVPel38I 1 -
Darrett✭✭✭✭EdmondDontes wrote: »EdmondDontes wrote: »We're all forgetting the elephant in the room:
Players, new to the PVP scene, *have to have an actual chance of surviving and succeeding*. Getting steamrollered and ganked all the time, to the point where one's only hope of making any sort of "achievement" is surviving and avoiding enemy players for long enough to complete the meagre PVE objectives in a PVP area, is just Not Fun.
In other words, a newbie - even in mismatched, inferior gear and with few skills to speak of - has to actually stand a chance of surviving against a veteran, and possibly even winning. Or at least, not be punished for dying: the whole "get sent back to base, when base is a hell of a long way away from where you actually want to be", is a major punishment that cannot be borne when it happens over and over again.
And "get better" is not always the answer, not when "get better" requires huge amounts of time and often real money to get the actual gear needed. Whether that's farming the gear, or donating for crowns to sell for gold to buy gear with, or whatever.
Perhaps it's possible to survive when there is a critical mass of other lowbies in the same situation as you, where there is a ratio of Very Few powerful players to Very Many newbies: a position where if, even if you are awful at PVP, the chances are that if you meet another player, they will be as awful as you.
Once you get a critical mass of people who are better than that, a player who is new to PVP just isn't going to be in that situation. They aren't going to get a chance: they get killed, in seconds, over and over again, often without even seeing who killed them.
Honestly, it *needs* churn - it needs veterans to leave, so that new players can enjoy competing against each other without veterans stuffing up the place and mowing people down who don't have a chance to fight back.
And it needs less of a difference between newbie and veteran: say, a situation where five newbies even in mismatched gear and only a few skills between them, should be able to fight on equal footing against a fully equipped veteran, and if you had ten such newbies, the veteran should not have a chance of survival.
Movement speed differences are a serious thing, especially with short-range teleports like Streak, which belong to only one class. If you are not literally fast enough, you cannot catch another player to damage them.
No. Just no.
You just made the case for playing Candy Crush or some other mindless game with no learning curve.
There is supposed to be a skill gap between someone who just started playing and someone who's been playing since beta. That's how it's supposed to be.
He’s exactly right. There’s a difference between a skill gap and a system where you get one-shot instantly even when equipping tank gear.
People will tolerate losing to more skilled players. They won’t tolerate being unable to improve because they can’t survive long enough to block due to ridiculously high damage output.
No. The poster is not right.
ESO is supposed to be a game that takes some skill and practice. It's not supposed to be the game that hands out participation trophies. If the ESO combat system is too hard, then practice. ESO is a game that takes skill and practice. That means players with more practice will and should perform better. There absolutely should be a skill gap between a new player and a veteran player. Those with practice can and should be expected to perform better at anything. That's how it's supposed to work.
ESO should not be the game that hands out participation trophies.
You’re arguing points that haven’t been made. What is being stated is that the issue is the gap is too wide, and it’s frustrating for new players to engage with content when they have zero chance of success. Since it’s so frustrating, they don’t engage. This isn’t entirely a skill issue either, it’s also an equipment issue, since the survivability thresholds necessary to survive more than one ability activation in PvP are so different than PvE content.
If you actually like PvP, you’ll need to recognize that it has to be new player friendly to survive, and the gap between high skill and powerful equipment needs to be considerably smaller than current. That’s not handing out “participation trophies”. It’s giving a new player some chance to compete, and/or learn.6 -
p00tx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The population is low because people are dogpiling even solo players in toxic sets with no counterplay. No one wants to waste their time with that. BGs are at least usually fun when you come up against a group of players who aren't all crutching on the same proc sets.PC/Xbox NA
Unchained | Unstoppable | Mindmender | Swashbuckler Supreme | Planes Breaker | Dawnbringer | Godslayer | Immortal Redeemer | Gryphon Heart | Tick-tock Tormentor | Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Stormproof | Grand Overlord | Grand Mastercrafter | Master Grappler | Tamriel Hero5 -
ResidentContrarian✭✭✭✭✭Well for one, PvP continues to go in the wrong direction.
The game continues to eliminate skill or tactical elements from gameplay every patch for PvP, and reward more and more stat-stacking or proc sets -- in other words mindless gameplay.
An example of continually removing tactical elements is the cut in duration of certain ground skills like mages guild rune, trap beast, etc. - all things that were previously effective at leveling the playing field vs. high burst or otherwise impossible to kill players if you used them tactically.
With the removal of those tools and continued nerfing, it means that all that matters in PvP becomes stats and damage output. The only problem being that stats and damage output are nowhere near balanced between builds, and, nowhere near balanced with population.
What ultimately results is an unbalanced mess that isn't enjoyable for players unless they all either copy and paste the same builds or find superior ones.
Then we can talk about how, in the same patches that tactical play gets removed, mindless play and stacking of stats or players gets rewarded every time.
It makes little sense, but what makes less sense is that siege still hasn't been buffed in the CP campaign and is a continued joke.
Anyone can go on, and on, and rant about the issues, but since no one that has the power to act on them will bother listening or addressing it, it's pointless.
One other thing to note is that the entire game is facing stiff competition, and I can say my friendlist has gradually become more and more "offline"...4 -
SammyKhajit✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Because the Imperial City is such a gloomy, depress place to hang out at. Sorry OP. It it’s just such a horrible environment and with COVID etc this one looks for bright sunny venues whilst in lockdown.0 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
LOL, its true, now IC is more hard core PvP than Cyrodil, its street fighting who also in real life is way more brutal than other environments. In Cyrodil its an cutesy to not attack pve players just doing quests and farming skyshards.SammyKhajit wrote: »Because the Imperial City is such a gloomy, depress place to hang out at. Sorry OP. It it’s just such a horrible environment and with COVID etc this one looks for bright sunny venues whilst in lockdown.
This rule does not apply in IC, because the engagement times is so short.
IC runs can be fun but often very stressful.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
You have an excellent point, in PvE you start with normal dungeons, then normal dlc and vet dungeons, normal trials, early vet dlc dungeons, vet craglorn trials, you do other vet dlc, some HM dlc, vMoL and move on.EdmondDontes wrote: »EdmondDontes wrote: »We're all forgetting the elephant in the room:
Players, new to the PVP scene, *have to have an actual chance of surviving and succeeding*. Getting steamrollered and ganked all the time, to the point where one's only hope of making any sort of "achievement" is surviving and avoiding enemy players for long enough to complete the meagre PVE objectives in a PVP area, is just Not Fun.
In other words, a newbie - even in mismatched, inferior gear and with few skills to speak of - has to actually stand a chance of surviving against a veteran, and possibly even winning. Or at least, not be punished for dying: the whole "get sent back to base, when base is a hell of a long way away from where you actually want to be", is a major punishment that cannot be borne when it happens over and over again.
And "get better" is not always the answer, not when "get better" requires huge amounts of time and often real money to get the actual gear needed. Whether that's farming the gear, or donating for crowns to sell for gold to buy gear with, or whatever.
Perhaps it's possible to survive when there is a critical mass of other lowbies in the same situation as you, where there is a ratio of Very Few powerful players to Very Many newbies: a position where if, even if you are awful at PVP, the chances are that if you meet another player, they will be as awful as you.
Once you get a critical mass of people who are better than that, a player who is new to PVP just isn't going to be in that situation. They aren't going to get a chance: they get killed, in seconds, over and over again, often without even seeing who killed them.
Honestly, it *needs* churn - it needs veterans to leave, so that new players can enjoy competing against each other without veterans stuffing up the place and mowing people down who don't have a chance to fight back.
And it needs less of a difference between newbie and veteran: say, a situation where five newbies even in mismatched gear and only a few skills between them, should be able to fight on equal footing against a fully equipped veteran, and if you had ten such newbies, the veteran should not have a chance of survival.
Movement speed differences are a serious thing, especially with short-range teleports like Streak, which belong to only one class. If you are not literally fast enough, you cannot catch another player to damage them.
No. Just no.
You just made the case for playing Candy Crush or some other mindless game with no learning curve.
There is supposed to be a skill gap between someone who just started playing and someone who's been playing since beta. That's how it's supposed to be.
He’s exactly right. There’s a difference between a skill gap and a system where you get one-shot instantly even when equipping tank gear.
People will tolerate losing to more skilled players. They won’t tolerate being unable to improve because they can’t survive long enough to block due to ridiculously high damage output.
No. The poster is not right.
ESO is supposed to be a game that takes some skill and practice. It's not supposed to be the game that hands out participation trophies. If the ESO combat system is too hard, then practice. ESO is a game that takes skill and practice. That means players with more practice will and should perform better. There absolutely should be a skill gap between a new player and a veteran player. Those with practice can and should be expected to perform better at anything. That's how it's supposed to work.
ESO should not be the game that hands out participation trophies.
You’re arguing points that haven’t been made. What is being stated is that the issue is the gap is too wide, and it’s frustrating for new players to engage with content when they have zero chance of success. Since it’s so frustrating, they don’t engage. This isn’t entirely a skill issue either, it’s also an equipment issue, since the survivability thresholds necessary to survive more than one ability activation in PvP are so different than PvE content.
If you actually like PvP, you’ll need to recognize that it has to be new player friendly to survive, and the gap between high skill and powerful equipment needs to be considerably smaller than current. That’s not handing out “participation trophies”. It’s giving a new player some chance to compete, and/or learn.
PvP does not work that way, dwarf fortress leaning curve
My best idea is to find an nice PvP guild.
And the 12 player groups did crippling damage to pug groups in Cyrodil on two fronts, first is that the once like to make pug groups get less than half the number of players and groups get much weaker as they are not organized so half is on flag as in 6 rather than 12 so you can not take an keep a couple players defend.
Second other groups don't invite pugs, first group is full, second group is 4, we can expect 6 latecomers so lets invite 12 LFG.
Now this does not happen so you need an pvp guild.
The good side is that its plenty of nice social guilds who do plenty of PvP.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
Olen_Mikko✭✭✭✭✭
✭Cheesing, dark convergence, exploiting, dark convergence, buggy sets, dark convergence, lag, dark convergence, old content, dark convergence, unrewarding, dark convergence, unbalanced, dark convergence, hrothgar, dark convergence, ballgroups, dark convergence, current meta, dark convergence,NB enthusiastic:- Woodhippie stamblade - DW hard-hitter / PvE
- Know-it-all elf Magblade - Healer / PvE & PvP
- Hate-them-all elf Magblade - Destrostaff AoE monster / PvE
- Cyrodiil-Refugee stamblade - Stamina Tank / PvE
Go dominion or go home
Nightblade-Hipster. I played Nightblade before it was cool - from 1.5 onwards.0 -
Stefirex✭✭✭WhyMustItBe wrote: »Missing "Other" option: Most people drawn to a fantasy RPG MMO, specifically with the lore/background of the Elder Scrolls franchise, will not be the type of people who are particularly interested in PVP.
That is fine by the way, and the devs should embrace it TBH. It seems trendy at this point for every MMO released to NEED to devote time to developing and balancing PVP as a major aspect of the game, even making it non-optional after a certain level in open world questing areas like many eastern titles opening the door to griefing and other toxic experiences.
Not every game in the world HAS to be all about PVP. It is OK for a game to exist that focuses on lore, dungeons/raids, and RPG elements. They are called GENRES. Not everything has to be a melting pot.
Besides, anytime an MMO starts shoehorning PVP it inevitably leads to PVE systems being wrecked and the abilities/playstyle of that part of the game being "streamlined," nerfed, and generally made un-fun, all in the name of "balance," since for whatever reason no game developer in the universe seems capable of balancing PVP and PVE separately.
Appreciate your response and feedback but this poll is trying to solicit a response from the PVP community, not the aspects of the game you're referring to.
So biased poll is biased, and you didn't bother to let people know you wanted it to be biased? Maybe write a better poll and make it clear who you want responses from?0 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, it really doesn't. MMOs originated in PVE cooperative games with little solo content. Think things like EverQuest in 1999.
That changed over time to become more solo friendly.
Most games had servers for PVP and there would be only one of them, compared to 20-30 PVE servers.
Slap on the Elder Scrolls IP to this game and you'd expect an even greater focus on PVE than other MMos today.
Not true.
EQ had tons of PvP servers and even held annual cross server best of the best competitions.
I remember literal 3 day wars over Veeshan. Raid groups of 72 etc. etc.
Back when DAoC and EQ1 were thriving, it was like a turning point for RPG's having this inclusion of mass pvp contact. We had lan parties renting old T1's with PC's all over the house on every floor, you name it. It was nuts.
Now? You'd think with the advancement in technology things would be better 20 years later.
I played EQ since launch. It never had "tons" of PVP servers. It had at most 4 . I'm trying to find earlier info but it also only had ONE PvP server since at least 2008. Edit: They merged the 4 PVP servers into one server (out of many) in 2005.
Right now it has ONE PvP server out of TWENTY FOUR servers.
I played EQ from beta through to some time beyond when EQ2 launched, and have occasionally dabbled on the progression servers in recent years. I was on SOE's Players' Technical Support Panel helping SOE with technical issues, and I lobbied hard with a Ubisoft Game Master to get the European servers returned to SOE after they had sold the European players out to Ubisoft. In other words, I was well into EQ! And yes, @AScarlato is spot on. There never was a lot of demand for PvP in EQ, and when they did launch PvP servers they were a one day wonder and had to be merged.1 -
Sluggy✭✭✭✭✭
✭If you actually like PvP, you’ll need to recognize that it has to be new player friendly to survive, and the gap between high skill and powerful equipment needs to be considerably smaller than current. That’s not handing out “participation trophies”. It’s giving a new player some chance to compete, and/or learn.
I mostly disagree with this mentality. While I agree that things like CP and to a certain extent, gear do contribute to an unfair gap, to say that skill, knowledge, and mechanical ability should not be a factor is just downright silly. Yes, let's level the field on the stats sides of things if we really have to - standard PvP sets, no CP or Max PvP-only CP for all.
To quote myself: NOBODY writes strategy guides about Candyland. It is an entirely skill-less game that is meant to be 'fair' in the sense that literally anyone can play it and have the same chance of winning. Yet chess has endured for centuries. People to this day write books, teach classes, have clubs and meets, practice, theorize, and analyze every aspect of it. It is purely a game of skill. And one that can go very deep. For something to endure, there has to be an element of challenge to it.
That being said, you're probably right. The vast majority of players do not want to engage in PvP and will not unless the skill gap is significantly reduced. And they are by far the majority of paying customers, I'm sure. I guess it just sucks for me and others like me that are the minority here. Probably time for us to be moving on, really.Edited by Sluggy on September 25, 2021 10:30PM0 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Population is low because Proc vs Proc is stupid and boring.Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.1 -
Gamerscape2007✭✭✭✭PVP population is so low because ZOS doesn't release PVP content.Because Every pvpers who are sane, have finally had enough and are waving the white flag. They simply given up that the balance will ever get fixed, the lag and bugs will never be fix, and that pvp will never get content. Hell, The last pvp update we got was the new siege you get from the skyrim chapter and gates back in 2020. If you want to be technical. The Only pvp update we got? Is some stupid pvp emote. And even then, pvp update are so rare compared to pve. This is why Pvp is bleeding players, because Zos has never took good care of it. Streamers, Pvpers, and pvp content creators has this serious defeatist attitude that I do not blame them for. They have given up seeing this game improve. They have given up seeing pvp getting some love, or that preformance will get better. They don't wanna keep talking to this brick wall anymore, which is why they are moving on to new world.
And here's the thing. To the people that will say Cryodill or bg won't die because of new world, you are half right. Yes, Bg, and cyrodill won't die right off the bat. However, As New world draws in new pvpers, pvp in this game will suffer a cold, prolonged, poisoned death because everyone stopped caring. The pvers never cared, The pvpers stopped caring. The Devs certainly don't care, if they did, they wouldn't let pvp get this bad, for so long.
The only people who still care, are blind to the fact that All the horrible balance changes, and lack of pvp update are giving pvp a slow and insidious death. At this point, whatever zos does is just too far gone at this point. The damage is already been done.Edited by Gamerscape2007 on September 26, 2021 4:13AM3
