Why is the PVP population so low?

EdmondDontes

PVP population is so low because ZOS doesn't release PVP content.

jle30303 wrote: »

We're all forgetting the elephant in the room:

Players, new to the PVP scene, *have to have an actual chance of surviving and succeeding*. Getting steamrollered and ganked all the time, to the point where one's only hope of making any sort of "achievement" is surviving and avoiding enemy players for long enough to complete the meagre PVE objectives in a PVP area, is just Not Fun.

In other words, a newbie - even in mismatched, inferior gear and with few skills to speak of - has to actually stand a chance of surviving against a veteran, and possibly even winning. Or at least, not be punished for dying: the whole "get sent back to base, when base is a hell of a long way away from where you actually want to be", is a major punishment that cannot be borne when it happens over and over again.

And "get better" is not always the answer, not when "get better" requires huge amounts of time and often real money to get the actual gear needed. Whether that's farming the gear, or donating for crowns to sell for gold to buy gear with, or whatever.

Perhaps it's possible to survive when there is a critical mass of other lowbies in the same situation as you, where there is a ratio of Very Few powerful players to Very Many newbies: a position where if, even if you are awful at PVP, the chances are that if you meet another player, they will be as awful as you.

Once you get a critical mass of people who are better than that, a player who is new to PVP just isn't going to be in that situation. They aren't going to get a chance: they get killed, in seconds, over and over again, often without even seeing who killed them.

Honestly, it *needs* churn - it needs veterans to leave, so that new players can enjoy competing against each other without veterans stuffing up the place and mowing people down who don't have a chance to fight back.

And it needs less of a difference between newbie and veteran: say, a situation where five newbies even in mismatched gear and only a few skills between them, should be able to fight on equal footing against a fully equipped veteran, and if you had ten such newbies, the veteran should not have a chance of survival.

Movement speed differences are a serious thing, especially with short-range teleports like Streak, which belong to only one class. If you are not literally fast enough, you cannot catch another player to damage them.

No. Just no.

You just made the case for playing Candy Crush or some other mindless game with no learning curve.

There is supposed to be a skill gap between someone who just started playing and someone who's been playing since beta. That's how it's supposed to be.

spartaxoxo

ZOS doesn't release any PVP content because PVP population is so low.

Nanfoodle wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

EdmondDontes wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

Missing "Other" option: Most people drawn to a fantasy RPG MMO, specifically with the lore/background of the Elder Scrolls franchise, will not be the type of people who are particularly interested in PVP.

This, which is why I never understand why PVP'ers always complain about having to do PVE content. This is a PVE game within a PVE IP, catered to a PVE audience.

Quite frankly, I don't find PVP to be very good in this game. It's less about skill and more about gear setups. I do PVP on occasion because I am typically driven to PVP style gaming (online leagues in sports games so I'm playing humans instead of computer, first person shooter games, even MMO PVP), but I find I can't do it much beyond about 30 minutes at a time, and maybe for only a week or so until I'm done with it for another 6 months. PVP in this game isn't very enjoyable to me, and so I stay out of it. The PVP that I do find some form of enjoyment from, is either 1. Cyrodiil, which is laggy to the point of frustration to try to play, or 2. Battlegrounds, which have now taken away all of the interesting modes and left us with only Deathmatch, which I couldn't care less about.

So I do think there is an aspect of "ZOS doesn't create enough PVP content so players don't play it", but the reason why there isn't enough PVP content is because this isn't a PVP game. It's a PVE first game, with some additional PVP content.

ESO was developed to be and advertised as a PvP game as endgame content. Just look at the box it came in. PvP is practically all it talks about. All the trailers in the beginning were PvP oriented. The PvE focus is a shift from the originally advertised focus.

It was not advertised that way.



^ This is just for Tamriel Unlimited, but I will give an example from the original release box when I get home. PVP absolutely was not the main focus of the advertising.

And, if the focus has shifted away from PVP to PVE, then that also is very telling.

The fact is, you can play this game and avoid PVP entirely and have a complete experience. You cannot play PVP entirely and avoid PVE entirely and have a complete experience. Even when PVP was the end-game, PVP could be avoided entirely. This is a PVE game first, PVP second.

Yes one ad says it all lol. I have been following this game since it was just an idea. It was marketed heavily towards PvPers and more so to DAoC players who were looking for a home. This is a fact.

I have been following the game for years and remember the game heavily advertising PvE and some advertising for PvP. I saw ads that looked like the back of that box.

Here's another example of the emphasis on PvE

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VHj5VvFWbtE

That's their E3 2013 gameplay trailer, emphasis was on PvE.

And then there was the cinematic trailers released shortly after. Here's the first 2 after E3.

The first one they did was the PVP focused on, but the PvE one was four times the length. Debateable which was more of a emphasis there.



And here's the IGN trailer they explain the game. Most of the video is dedicated to PVE but they placed PvP as the end thing. Again the emphasis for that is debateable.



Googling promo art from that time period I found this



Nothing in particular advertised here. Although the image here is arguably "Skyrim with friends" thanks to the centering of the Nord, which would be PvE centric if we had to push one way or another.

And another piece of promo material.



This one is PvE centric with a strong emphasis that PVP is gonna be important too. This is from a pamphlet included in the ps3 greatest edition of Skyrim

In honor of the Beta they released this which is PvP focused.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uq1o2VG1ogY

Here's an interview with PVE focus, though again they do talk about PVE. They also discuss how the E3 demo was heavy pve focused. They also state that first, ESO has to be good as an RPG(PvE). They do make sure to bring up pvp again after saying that, so you know they consider it important. But first, it's a compelling rpg.

It's interesting because, when we say MMO, we just say the word as if it means something. And I know what you mean, but for us, the first thing is that it has to be a compelling game - a compelling RPG. So first, we plan out a number of hours. So when we're planning internally, we'll say, "OK, here's the number of hours where we really have enough content." Then what we look at is what's repeatably fun

So no, this game was not marketed as a game mostly about PvP by ZOS. I wasn't into watching streaming at the time, so maybe things were different with the streamers. Perhaps they focused so much on PVP that it gave a different impression to their viewers than the official marketing of the game. Or more likely, people remembered most what they were personally most looking forward towards.

But the marketing definitely mostly tried to maintain a balance of attention, though when pushed hard they said the RPG parts were the first thing about it. This should come as no surprise since this game is the multiplayer version of a single player rpg franchise. They never lost sight of that, but also hyped up PVP quite a bit.

LashanW

PVP population is so low because ZOS doesn't release PVP content.

They also keep making changes that makes PvP very unfriendly for inexperienced/newer players, and ignore much needed performance improvements and bug fixes for PvP content that already exist.

pleximus wrote: »

It would also be great if ZOS brought 24-man groups back. They made for much more fun fights. And before anyone shouts about ZEEEERGS, remember that ESO pvp war is made to resemble middle-ages wars where you had actual ARMIES.

Agreed. Group size reduction made Cyrodiil very PUG unfriendly. I don't get why people complained about zergs back then (those 24-man pug groups weren't unstoppable forces, they made mistakes and it was hilarious and fun sometimes). If that lead to poor server performance then that's server's fault, not zergs'. I mean Cyrodiil is advertised as Alliance vs Alliance, not small group vs small group, or 1vX zone.

It's just not fun anymore.

Qagh

PVP population is so low because ZOS doesn't release PVP content.

Not only!

The performance, population & class balance & new sets (DC) are terrible.

We don't have new rewards & motifs & achievments.

Sorbin

The PvP has just become an absolute, embarrassing farce over the years due to total neglect from ZOS and an utter lack of vision.

Cyrodiil hasn't had any changes beyond total gimmicks that no one wanted.

Imperial City contains a litany of rewards that are completely and utterly outdated.

Battlegrounds have been a complete joke from day one, a bunch of gametypes lifted without thought from first-person shooters with a horrible multi-team design that actively encourages you to either third party or avoid combat altogether if possible in objective game modes.

There are skills, classes and sets that are just hilariously, blatantly overtuned that remain in the game while skills like Dark Cloak get nerfed in some outrageously misguided attempt at Excel spreadsheet gameplay balance.

ZOS makes wild, completely arbitrary overhauls to core gameplay systems and seems to embrace this as a means of keeping people on the hamster wheel.

The amount of variables to balance has ballooned completely out of control and ZOS seems to have no plan to reign them in. ZOS has never been able to even balance PvE and PvP. Now they have PvE, CP PvP, no-CP/no-proc PvP and no-CP/proc-enabled PvP.

There's no new content, nothing to look forward to, the same tired environments for years on end.

And, the clincher: the performance is literally, bar none, the worst performance of any online game you'll ever play and it will never, ever improve because ZOS simply can't or won't do it.

DreamyLu

Other: I agree with previous reply.

I believe that nowadays, a vast majority of MMO players (no matter the game) are mainly casual players. They want easy and relaxing life in game, matching better with PvE.

PvP or similar end game activities need some invest of time and efforts (specific class, learning mechs., learning other roles to do good team work, ....). Casual players, players busy with real life, players busy with several games simultaneously... All those will have little - to no - interest into activities needing a bit more work. I think it's the root cause.

Additional to that, if the games (again, no matter the game, it's same everywhere) owners don't invest to maintain those activities attractive (because of decreasing amount of customers, it makes less sense to invest), they also lose the PvPers who get more and more frustrated. But it's on my opinion no the very first reason. It just adds.

Amottica

Joy_Division wrote: »

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

Missing "Other" option: Most people drawn to a fantasy RPG MMO, specifically with the lore/background of the Elder Scrolls franchise, will not be the type of people who are particularly interested in PVP.

That is fine by the way, and the devs should embrace it TBH. It seems trendy at this point for every MMO released to NEED to devote time to developing and balancing PVP as a major aspect of the game, even making it non-optional after a certain level in open world questing areas like many eastern titles opening the door to griefing and other toxic experiences.

Not every game in the world HAS to be all about PVP. It is OK for a game to exist that focuses on lore, dungeons/raids, and RPG elements. They are called GENRES. Not everything has to be a melting pot.

Besides, anytime an MMO starts shoehorning PVP it inevitably leads to PVE systems being wrecked and the abilities/playstyle of that part of the game being "streamlined," nerfed, and generally made un-fun, all in the name of "balance," since for whatever reason no game developer in the universe seems capable of balancing PVP and PVE separately.

What is the basis for believing the people drawn to a fantasy RPG MMO will not be the type of people who are interested in PVP? Are you just assuming that people who like PvP aren;t interested in ES lore? Why make such an assumption?

When this game was launch, when there was no Crown Store, when it wasn't $10 bargain bin, when there was no PvE endgame to speak of, there was a huge population of PvP players.

I looked up when trials were added to ESO at it seems it was added a little more than a month after the game launched. At that, it seems it was intended as an end game zone along with the end game trials. It is not like that type of content is really needed on day one. So while you are very much correct that there was no end game PvE at launch that was not a big deal and it seems it was still very much designed heavily towards PvE.

Also, since we only have to be level 10 to enter Cyrodiil, assuming that was always the case, Cyrodiil is technically not end game but everything.

While I do agree with you that PvP players can be interested in this type of game and I believe you that the game had a much larger PvP audience at launch which is not surprising, I think do not think trials being added to the game about a month after launch makes this game any less of a PvE game than it is today.

Darrett

EdmondDontes wrote: »

jle30303 wrote: »

We're all forgetting the elephant in the room:

Players, new to the PVP scene, *have to have an actual chance of surviving and succeeding*. Getting steamrollered and ganked all the time, to the point where one's only hope of making any sort of "achievement" is surviving and avoiding enemy players for long enough to complete the meagre PVE objectives in a PVP area, is just Not Fun.

In other words, a newbie - even in mismatched, inferior gear and with few skills to speak of - has to actually stand a chance of surviving against a veteran, and possibly even winning. Or at least, not be punished for dying: the whole "get sent back to base, when base is a hell of a long way away from where you actually want to be", is a major punishment that cannot be borne when it happens over and over again.

And "get better" is not always the answer, not when "get better" requires huge amounts of time and often real money to get the actual gear needed. Whether that's farming the gear, or donating for crowns to sell for gold to buy gear with, or whatever.

Perhaps it's possible to survive when there is a critical mass of other lowbies in the same situation as you, where there is a ratio of Very Few powerful players to Very Many newbies: a position where if, even if you are awful at PVP, the chances are that if you meet another player, they will be as awful as you.

Once you get a critical mass of people who are better than that, a player who is new to PVP just isn't going to be in that situation. They aren't going to get a chance: they get killed, in seconds, over and over again, often without even seeing who killed them.

Honestly, it *needs* churn - it needs veterans to leave, so that new players can enjoy competing against each other without veterans stuffing up the place and mowing people down who don't have a chance to fight back.

And it needs less of a difference between newbie and veteran: say, a situation where five newbies even in mismatched gear and only a few skills between them, should be able to fight on equal footing against a fully equipped veteran, and if you had ten such newbies, the veteran should not have a chance of survival.

Movement speed differences are a serious thing, especially with short-range teleports like Streak, which belong to only one class. If you are not literally fast enough, you cannot catch another player to damage them.

No. Just no.

You just made the case for playing Candy Crush or some other mindless game with no learning curve.

There is supposed to be a skill gap between someone who just started playing and someone who's been playing since beta. That's how it's supposed to be.

He’s exactly right. There’s a difference between a skill gap and a system where you get one-shot instantly even when equipping tank gear.

People will tolerate losing to more skilled players. They won’t tolerate being unable to improve because they can’t survive long enough to block due to ridiculously high damage output.

hands0medevil

PVP population is so low because ZOS doesn't release PVP content.

Just watch the latest patch notes review made by Fengrush. There is nothing more to add. ESO, game originally announced as three factions MMO game with PVP, sieges etc now is silently turned into a socialhub for furnishing enthusiasts. Don't get me wrong, ESO is doing a good job with all the other content or at least they try and I'm glad the game is developed this way, so it's giving players many different ways to enjoy it. But PVP is treated like it's not wanted to be the part of the game and community anymore. I think the new pvp content we get with U32 is the best summary of the state of pvp in ESO. Yes, we are getting new pvp emote. I hope it's a goodbye wave at least and not a middle finger.

notyuu

Other:It drives most people away due to the balance being wack, the lag being high and the learning curve so steep it literally goes upside down

mark.alexander5neb18_ESO

ZOS doesn't release any PVP content because PVP population is so low.

The PvP population is low because people who love to PvP play a dedicated PvP game instead. Each of us will have our own personal fave. I like the Battlefield games myself and when I'm in the mood to PvP I load one of those up.

DTLight

The biggest reason for me was performance. I have good internet, at least by my standards, and it works great with most other games, but ESO doesn't seem to like it at all.

GreenhaloX

I'm sure the constant lagging and bluescreening kept many out of Cyro. Then, the dryness of repetitive attacking and defending keeps likely got many others bored. Then, comes the non-proc; I'm sure that turned a lot of players off as well.

Bealeb319

It is because there is such a large gap between players who understand the mechanics of pvp and those who don't there is a large gap between players who are decent at the game and those who are not. In pve a mediocre player can easily be carried around to the point where they may not even realize how little they are contributing but in pvp mediocre players get exposed quickly and it's simply not fun to die over and over again without having any time to respond or react to the threat. Then you add how toxic pvp players can be.

EF321

PVP population is so low because ZOS doesn't release PVP content.

GreenhaloX wrote: »

Then, comes the non-proc; I'm sure that turned a lot of players off as well.

Yeah, this is the case for me for sure. I was not playing pvp at all during No proc in all campaigns, as pretty much entire game for me revolves around designing stupid themed/gimmicky builds, that are often inefficient, but fun to use. Whitelist of sets severely reduces the amount of ideas I can implement.

Skoomah

PVP population is so low because ZOS doesn't release PVP content.

The lack of new PVP content is currently the clear winner for this poll. And not included as an option in this poll... performance.

markulrich1966

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

@Pepegrillos, thanks for the awesome video link. I had to run it back and watch in slow motion after doing a double take at the scene from 0:36 to 0:37 because it looked like someone firing a pistol, but it was a small handheld crossbow.

this is "silver bolts", the first of the fighters guild skills.
Gives you a ranged attack even on melee setups (dual wield/2 hand).

I did not notice it for years as I always focussed on class/weapon skills.
But fighters guild skills are really worth a look, e.g. the passives, too. There is one passive that increases weapon damage by 3% for each fighters guild ability slotted.
So I meanwhile have a dual wield setup that uses only bloodthirst as non-fighters guild skill, the rest is FG to benefit from the increased weapon damage.

Joy_Division

Amottica wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

Missing "Other" option: Most people drawn to a fantasy RPG MMO, specifically with the lore/background of the Elder Scrolls franchise, will not be the type of people who are particularly interested in PVP.

That is fine by the way, and the devs should embrace it TBH. It seems trendy at this point for every MMO released to NEED to devote time to developing and balancing PVP as a major aspect of the game, even making it non-optional after a certain level in open world questing areas like many eastern titles opening the door to griefing and other toxic experiences.

Not every game in the world HAS to be all about PVP. It is OK for a game to exist that focuses on lore, dungeons/raids, and RPG elements. They are called GENRES. Not everything has to be a melting pot.

Besides, anytime an MMO starts shoehorning PVP it inevitably leads to PVE systems being wrecked and the abilities/playstyle of that part of the game being "streamlined," nerfed, and generally made un-fun, all in the name of "balance," since for whatever reason no game developer in the universe seems capable of balancing PVP and PVE separately.

What is the basis for believing the people drawn to a fantasy RPG MMO will not be the type of people who are interested in PVP? Are you just assuming that people who like PvP aren;t interested in ES lore? Why make such an assumption?

When this game was launch, when there was no Crown Store, when it wasn't $10 bargain bin, when there was no PvE endgame to speak of, there was a huge population of PvP players.

I looked up when trials were added to ESO at it seems it was added a little more than a month after the game launched. At that, it seems it was intended as an end game zone along with the end game trials. It is not like that type of content is really needed on day one. So while you are very much correct that there was no end game PvE at launch that was not a big deal and it seems it was still very much designed heavily towards PvE.

Also, since we only have to be level 10 to enter Cyrodiil, assuming that was always the case, Cyrodiil is technically not end game but everything.

While I do agree with you that PvP players can be interested in this type of game and I believe you that the game had a much larger PvP audience at launch which is not surprising, I think do not think trials being added to the game about a month after launch makes this game any less of a PvE game than it is today.

What is your basis for assuming (which you are doing since you are not providing me with any sources) the game was heavily designed toward PvE?

It is undeniable the game was *more* of a PvP game back then because ZOS had a full time PvP devloper (they don;t now), Cyrodiil directly affected those PvE trials with buffs (does not happen now), one of the first chapter like expansions was an entire zone where people could PvP and had a PvP loot mechanic in Tel Var, and the first sticky in the PvP forums had promised its player base that many future updates and additions were coming (something they did not take down until like 2019). In fact, if you look to the west of Dragonclaw Keep, that's Cloud Ruler Temple, which was going to be a trial that could only be accessed via Cyrodiil. The original devs very much wanted a marriage between PvE and PvP, which is why for years they resisted the numerous requests to separate PvE from PvP balancing.

Why does this urge exist to change history and pretend the devs were never serious about PvP and it was only intended to be a peripheral part of PvE dominated ESO? Are people that insecure that ZOS might someday devote more than scrap of developmental resources to fulfill some of the promises they made at Launch and slow down the (since 2016) very aggressive DLC schedule that provides PvE players with a massive amount of content - zones, dungeons, loot systems, rewards, quests, NPCs, etc. - solely dedicated to them? That's not enough? Now we must erase history and project ESO's present all the way back before launch? At this point, most of what PvP players have right now are memories. Might as well let them have them.

MEBengalsFan2001

Sylosi wrote: »

Neither.

The PvP population is low because it is not very good, so does not actually appeal to most PvP gamers. Which to be fair to ESO is pretty much the issue with PvP in MMORPGs full stop, though some MMORPGs do a bit better job than ESO does on that front.

The basis of good, skilled and most importantly fun PvP is competitiveness, not in some "e-sports" sense, but simply that a match, a fight, etc is contested between reasonable equal players / groups / teams so that you get interesting engaging, challenging gameplay, as opposed to tedious faceroll / getting facerolled that is barely gameplay at all.

ESO's various PvP options are terrible at producing even vaguely competitive PvP, so what you get is mostly bad, one sided, very dull PvP that only really appeals to people who are fine with what is essentially trash tier PvP.

Then add balance is always going to be a car crash in a game like this, so cheese becaomes very, very important and there is even less reason to play it for anyone who wants actual decent PvP.

Hence it is never going to be popular.

Which is why PvP in MMORPGs is basically considered a joke in gaming.

Almost all MMOs have bad PVP. The games that had good PVP have made changes for the more casual players making PVP not as good as it once was.

ESO PVP isn't great but it isn't the bottom of the barrel either.

karekiz

ZOS doesn't release any PVP content because PVP population is so low.

I mean they did back when they launched the game. The same as Guild wars 2 was a PvP focused endgame.

They changed their minds <Both ESO and GW2>. If there was a lot of money in it, then I am sure we would see a LOT of cash shop integration and DLC's for PvP.

jedtb16_ESO

HidesInPlainSight wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Why is the PVP population so low? Chicken or the egg?

if it's so low how come i was position 30 in a queue a couple of days ago?

Because they lowered total population allowed in cyrodill.

and why did they do that?

kieso

Imagine how much more dead pvp would be if they moved caltrops to like rank 2 or 3 since a lot of pve solo builds use that skill.

SeaGtGruff

markulrich1966 wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

@Pepegrillos, thanks for the awesome video link. I had to run it back and watch in slow motion after doing a double take at the scene from 0:36 to 0:37 because it looked like someone firing a pistol, but it was a small handheld crossbow.

this is "silver bolts", the first of the fighters guild skills.
Gives you a ranged attack even on melee setups (dual wield/2 hand).

I did not notice it for years as I always focussed on class/weapon skills.
But fighters guild skills are really worth a look, e.g. the passives, too. There is one passive that increases weapon damage by 3% for each fighters guild ability slotted.
So I meanwhile have a dual wield setup that uses only bloodthirst as non-fighters guild skill, the rest is FG to benefit from the increased weapon damage.

Oh, you mean that ability I bought with SPs years ago and then never made much use of? o_O

Jameson18

PVP population is so low because ZOS doesn't release PVP content.

Fennwitty wrote: »

Lag, poor balance, crazy swings in meta, outdated rewards ...

Huge factors.

Jameson18

PVP population is so low because ZOS doesn't release PVP content.

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

Missing "Other" option: Most people drawn to a fantasy RPG MMO, specifically with the lore/background of the Elder Scrolls franchise, will not be the type of people who are particularly interested in PVP.

That is fine by the way, and the devs should embrace it TBH. It seems trendy at this point for every MMO released to NEED to devote time to developing and balancing PVP as a major aspect of the game, even making it non-optional after a certain level in open world questing areas like many eastern titles opening the door to griefing and other toxic experiences.

Not every game in the world HAS to be all about PVP. It is OK for a game to exist that focuses on lore, dungeons/raids, and RPG elements. They are called GENRES. Not everything has to be a melting pot.

Besides, anytime an MMO starts shoehorning PVP it inevitably leads to PVE systems being wrecked and the abilities/playstyle of that part of the game being "streamlined," nerfed, and generally made un-fun, all in the name of "balance," since for whatever reason no game developer in the universe seems capable of balancing PVP and PVE separately.

Strongly against this opinion. Why can't people who are interested in lore and love the tes universe be interested in pvp? Why such an association? It is a big mistake to categorize players so strictly. I know a large number of high-end players who play pvp too, and decorate houses and complete quests.

For real.

Came to this game because I love Elder Scrolls lore and I wanted to participate in the 3 banners war.

Jameson18

PVP population is so low because ZOS doesn't release PVP content.

AScarlato wrote: »

No, it really doesn't. MMOs originated in PVE cooperative games with little solo content. Think things like EverQuest in 1999.

That changed over time to become more solo friendly.

Most games had servers for PVP and there would be only one of them, compared to 20-30 PVE servers.

Slap on the Elder Scrolls IP to this game and you'd expect an even greater focus on PVE than other MMos today.

Not true.

EQ had tons of PvP servers and even held annual cross server best of the best competitions.

I remember literal 3 day wars over Veeshan. Raid groups of 72 etc. etc.

Back when DAoC and EQ1 were thriving, it was like a turning point for RPG's having this inclusion of mass pvp contact. We had lan parties renting old T1's with PC's all over the house on every floor, you name it. It was nuts.

Now? You'd think with the advancement in technology things would be better 20 years later.

AScarlato

PVP population is so low because ZOS doesn't release PVP content.

Jameson18 wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

No, it really doesn't. MMOs originated in PVE cooperative games with little solo content. Think things like EverQuest in 1999.

That changed over time to become more solo friendly.

Most games had servers for PVP and there would be only one of them, compared to 20-30 PVE servers.

Slap on the Elder Scrolls IP to this game and you'd expect an even greater focus on PVE than other MMos today.

Not true.

EQ had tons of PvP servers and even held annual cross server best of the best competitions.

I remember literal 3 day wars over Veeshan. Raid groups of 72 etc. etc.

Back when DAoC and EQ1 were thriving, it was like a turning point for RPG's having this inclusion of mass pvp contact. We had lan parties renting old T1's with PC's all over the house on every floor, you name it. It was nuts.

Now? You'd think with the advancement in technology things would be better 20 years later.

I played EQ since launch. It never had "tons" of PVP servers. It had at most 4 . I'm trying to find earlier info but it also only had ONE PvP server since at least 2008. Edit: They merged the 4 PVP servers into one server (out of many) in 2005.

Right now it has ONE PvP server out of TWENTY FOUR servers.

Chadak

Because this game is kinda terrible for PVP and those of us that enjoy PVP can often find far better experiences in other games.

I like PVE in this game. PVP? Nah. This game engine is terrible for it, the class design is terrible for it and, really, just what kind of argument is there to even be made about how the overall PVP experience compares between ESO and, say...literally any game that was made from the ground up to be ideal for PVP?

Not much else to say.

EdmondDontes

PVP population is so low because ZOS doesn't release PVP content.

Darrett wrote: »

EdmondDontes wrote: »

jle30303 wrote: »

We're all forgetting the elephant in the room:

Players, new to the PVP scene, *have to have an actual chance of surviving and succeeding*. Getting steamrollered and ganked all the time, to the point where one's only hope of making any sort of "achievement" is surviving and avoiding enemy players for long enough to complete the meagre PVE objectives in a PVP area, is just Not Fun.

In other words, a newbie - even in mismatched, inferior gear and with few skills to speak of - has to actually stand a chance of surviving against a veteran, and possibly even winning. Or at least, not be punished for dying: the whole "get sent back to base, when base is a hell of a long way away from where you actually want to be", is a major punishment that cannot be borne when it happens over and over again.

And "get better" is not always the answer, not when "get better" requires huge amounts of time and often real money to get the actual gear needed. Whether that's farming the gear, or donating for crowns to sell for gold to buy gear with, or whatever.

Perhaps it's possible to survive when there is a critical mass of other lowbies in the same situation as you, where there is a ratio of Very Few powerful players to Very Many newbies: a position where if, even if you are awful at PVP, the chances are that if you meet another player, they will be as awful as you.

Once you get a critical mass of people who are better than that, a player who is new to PVP just isn't going to be in that situation. They aren't going to get a chance: they get killed, in seconds, over and over again, often without even seeing who killed them.

Honestly, it *needs* churn - it needs veterans to leave, so that new players can enjoy competing against each other without veterans stuffing up the place and mowing people down who don't have a chance to fight back.

And it needs less of a difference between newbie and veteran: say, a situation where five newbies even in mismatched gear and only a few skills between them, should be able to fight on equal footing against a fully equipped veteran, and if you had ten such newbies, the veteran should not have a chance of survival.

Movement speed differences are a serious thing, especially with short-range teleports like Streak, which belong to only one class. If you are not literally fast enough, you cannot catch another player to damage them.

No. Just no.

You just made the case for playing Candy Crush or some other mindless game with no learning curve.

There is supposed to be a skill gap between someone who just started playing and someone who's been playing since beta. That's how it's supposed to be.

He’s exactly right. There’s a difference between a skill gap and a system where you get one-shot instantly even when equipping tank gear.

People will tolerate losing to more skilled players. They won’t tolerate being unable to improve because they can’t survive long enough to block due to ridiculously high damage output.

No. The poster is not right.

ESO is supposed to be a game that takes some skill and practice. It's not supposed to be the game that hands out participation trophies. If the ESO combat system is too hard, then practice. ESO is a game that takes skill and practice. That means players with more practice will and should perform better. There absolutely should be a skill gap between a new player and a veteran player. Those with practice can and should be expected to perform better at anything. That's how it's supposed to work.

ESO should not be the game that hands out participation trophies.

ZOS_GregoryV

Greetings all!

After removing a few posts, we would like to remind everyone that all posts should be kept civil, constructive, and within the Community Guidelines. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please take a few moments to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-