Disparity in crit damage in optimized groups

I personally feel that a critical damage cap is a healthy choice for the game, however an issue arises when it comes to khajiit NTW (nb/templar/warden), this combination of classes and race gives them 22% critical damage that non-khajiit DSN (DKs/Sorcs/Necros) don't have access to. Therefore optimized groups will still run EC/Brittle/Major Force, the DSN will still have to "dump" a minimal amount of crit damage but the khajiit NTW will have to get rid of an enormous amount of critical damage and go for "inferior" options.

For class identity and race identity purposes, I understand that simply changing all of these passives and bringing all races and classes to the exact same critical damage would be "boring", as such I suggest the following options (do note that these options are not meant to all be implemented as I do believe only reducing a partial amount of critical damage would be ideal):
-Change Khajiit passive to a small amount of critical rating; this would make it a lot easier for people who are attached to their Khajiit NTW to manage the excess amount of critical damage while still maintaining class identity
-Change warden glacial presence passive to: Increase chance of applying Chilled to enemies with Winter's Embrace abilities by 200%. Increase your spell and weapon damage by 2% for 4 seconds whenever you apply the chilled status effect, this effect can stack up to 3 times. (This would also encourage magicka dps players to run ice staves as the chilled now has to come from you in order to access this passive)
-Change to nightblade hemorrhage passive to not count towards the 125% cap, even if you need to nerf the critical damage to 8% to do so (Nightblades especially are associated with critical rating and damage and as such, I feel like letting them have the unique ability to go above the cap shouldn't be much of an issue, especially with the well thought changes to grim focus and its morphs
-Change the templar piercing spear to a separate damage bonus altogether (while the warden glacial presence and the nightblade hemorrhage passives are both thematically fitting, I feel like the piercing spear passive could be reworked entirely without templar losing any bit of class identity.

PrinceShroob wrote: »

Let's look at some math using the Iron Atronach trial dummy's innate buffs and debuffs (Major Force and Minor Brittle). While parsing on the dummy isn't "real" content, it is no less "real" to a lot of people who like to practice and improve, and it's widely used to standardize and compare damage numbers.

Trial dummy has minimum 80% Critical Damage (50% base, Minor Brittle, and Major Force). For stamina, Khajiit in all medium adds 26%. Class passives add 10% -- 116%. Fighting Finesse takes you over, to 126%. With no class passives, Minor Force adds 10%, resulting in 126% regardless.

For magicka, 80% plus 10% from class passives plus 12% from racials -- 102%. Fighting Finesse or Minor Force gives 10% -- 112%. Kilt can add 12% (from one Medium Armor plus 10%) -- 124% (or 122% with Minor Force/Fighting Finesse and no Kilt; with no class passive Backstabber would take you over, since it's 15%).

There's no way to hit but not exceed cap with Khajiit, as far as I can tell. Par the course, since the developers apparently love to make sweeping changes but not actually make corrections for any fallout until the following patch.

i don't want to be that guy but .... not slot FF or not use minor force? isn't that the answer you're looking for?
I mean, slot a different damage CP or don't use trap are pretty easy options.

Haven't seen official thread for SETS, so assuming it is combat oriented set I will write few words here about Elemental Succession change, set dropping only in MA and vMA (pls keep it in mind it drops only there along with many other random sets).

Currently:

Set bonus
(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(3 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(5 items) Whenever you deal Flame, Shock, or Frost Damage, you gain 492 Spell Damage for that element for 4 seconds. Each effect can occur every 4 seconds, and multiple effects can be active at once.

The change in U32 PTS

Elemental Succession: This set now grants its bonuses randomly per element when you deal any source of Flame, Frost, or Shock Damage, rather than firing each bonus independently per element.
This change was done to ensure its power is not outright better than the flat bonus versions of these sets, such as Silks of the Sun, as well as to significantly reduce the amount of logic checks being done per second on the backend.


Congrats, useful set has been remade to be completely useless piece of garbage. Could you give us any valid reason why this change had to be made at all? It was useful set for Frost Wardens, it was useful set for those who did not want to use BSW on MagDK because of it's cool down. It was never really about being better than Silks of the Sun or Ysgramor's Birthright.
This change is not needed and the bonus randomness makes only 1 skill (and it's morphs) able to profit from it all the time.

Overland Sets being less powerful being the reason is like saying easy to obtain sets must be more powerful than those given as reward for doing harder content, it makes no sense.

Thank you for some of these DK changes. Looking forward to see how they end up playing.

I will say one of the things that I'd have liked to see is a buff to Protective Scale and its morphs. The 50% damage reduction seems so weak compared to similar skills from other classes (Crystallized Shield for Wardens), and makes it a lot harder to use. As an example, Z'Maja's Nocturnal's Favor in vCR is still decently dangerous to DKs, but Wardens can basically no-sell that attack.

See the difference between the DK Dragon Fire Scale and Warden's Crystallized Slab, both costing the same amount of mag:
DK: Flex your scales, reducing damage taken from projectiles by 50% for 6 seconds. When you are hit with a projectile, you retaliate by launching a fiery orb at the attacker that deals 1799 Flame Damage. This effect can occur once every half second.
W: Spin a shield of ice around you, absorbing up to 24791 damage from 3 projectiles. Each time you absorb a projectile you restore 831 Magicka and launch an icy bolt back at the enemy, dealing 1799 Frost Damage. This effect can occur once every half second.

The Warden's version can no-sell three projectiles from all but the toughest PvE mobs. It also restores mag for the Warden and reflects damage to the attacker. The DK version will still let 50% of the damage through regardless and then do the same amount of damage back with no other effects. Both last for 6 seconds — the Warden's can proc up to 3 times every half second, the DK's up to 12... but again that's not too useful in PvE boss encounters where the amount of reflected damage is pitiful and you're not getting 12 projectiles in 6 seconds. And that's not counting the fact that the Warden can recast it if its three uses are spent, giving it the potential of the same uptime but again no-selling the projectiles instead of letting half the damage through.

It just seems like the Warden version is so much better than the DK version, and it would be nice to get a little love for DK PvE tanks as well.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Thank you for some of these DK changes. Looking forward to see how they end up playing.

I will say one of the things that I'd have liked to see is a buff to Protective Scale and its morphs. The 50% damage reduction seems so weak compared to similar skills from other classes (Crystallized Shield for Wardens), and makes it a lot harder to use. As an example, Z'Maja's Nocturnal's Favor in vCR is still decently dangerous to DKs, but Wardens can basically no-sell that attack.

See the difference between the DK Dragon Fire Scale and Warden's Crystallized Slab, both costing the same amount of mag:
DK: Flex your scales, reducing damage taken from projectiles by 50% for 6 seconds. When you are hit with a projectile, you retaliate by launching a fiery orb at the attacker that deals 1799 Flame Damage. This effect can occur once every half second.
W: Spin a shield of ice around you, absorbing up to 24791 damage from 3 projectiles. Each time you absorb a projectile you restore 831 Magicka and launch an icy bolt back at the enemy, dealing 1799 Frost Damage. This effect can occur once every half second.

The Warden's version can no-sell three projectiles from all but the toughest PvE mobs. It also restores mag for the Warden and reflects damage to the attacker. The DK version will still let 50% of the damage through regardless and then do the same amount of damage back with no other effects. Both last for 6 seconds — the Warden's can proc up to 3 times every half second, the DK's up to 12... but again that's not too useful in PvE boss encounters where the amount of reflected damage is pitiful and you're not getting 12 projectiles in 6 seconds. And that's not counting the fact that the Warden can recast it if its three uses are spent, giving it the potential of the same uptime but again no-selling the projectiles instead of letting half the damage through.

It just seems like the Warden version is so much better than the DK version, and it would be nice to get a little love for DK PvE tanks as well.

Warden doesn't even use crystallized slab anyway in most content. It's useful for vMA and is incredibly niche in PvP. Yes. It's a projectile damage shield. But like dk wings it also has another utility morph that is just better. The biggest problem with fire scale and crys slab is that in pvp, the damage is only useful when you're able to use it as pressure otherwise it's just some random projectile that doesn't do a whole lot to it's target. The utility morphs do not care about that at all. They're just defensive and have other effects you don't have to think twice about.

therrieur wrote: »

Disparity in crit damage in optimized groups

I personally feel that a critical damage cap is a healthy choice for the game, however an issue arises when it comes to khajiit NTW (nb/templar/warden), this combination of classes and race gives them 22% critical damage that non-khajiit DSN (DKs/Sorcs/Necros) don't have access to. Therefore optimized groups will still run EC/Brittle/Major Force, the DSN will still have to "dump" a minimal amount of crit damage but the khajiit NTW will have to get rid of an enormous amount of critical damage and go for "inferior" options.

For class identity and race identity purposes, I understand that simply changing all of these passives and bringing all races and classes to the exact same critical damage would be "boring", as such I suggest the following options (do note that these options are not meant to all be implemented as I do believe only reducing a partial amount of critical damage would be ideal):
-Change Khajiit passive to a small amount of critical rating; this would make it a lot easier for people who are attached to their Khajiit NTW to manage the excess amount of critical damage while still maintaining class identity
-Change warden glacial presence passive to: Increase chance of applying Chilled to enemies with Winter's Embrace abilities by 200%. Increase your spell and weapon damage by 2% for 4 seconds whenever you apply the chilled status effect, this effect can stack up to 3 times. (This would also encourage magicka dps players to run ice staves as the chilled now has to come from you in order to access this passive)
-Change to nightblade hemorrhage passive to not count towards the 125% cap, even if you need to nerf the critical damage to 8% to do so (Nightblades especially are associated with critical rating and damage and as such, I feel like letting them have the unique ability to go above the cap shouldn't be much of an issue, especially with the well thought changes to grim focus and its morphs
-Change the templar piercing spear to a separate damage bonus altogether (while the warden glacial presence and the nightblade hemorrhage passives are both thematically fitting, I feel like the piercing spear passive could be reworked entirely without templar losing any bit of class identity.

2% spell dmg is hilariously tiny for a proc condition like the chilled status effect

I think the proc changes are fine... for PVP.
How about we not change PVE, though.

I understand getting one-shot in the pvp stinks, but that has nothing to do with the rest of the game.

therrieur wrote: »

Disparity in crit damage in optimized groups

[...] Therefore optimized groups will still run EC/Brittle/Major Force, the DSN will still have to "dump" a minimal amount of crit damage but the khajiit NTW will have to get rid of an enormous amount of critical damage and go for "inferior" options.

[...]I suggest the following options[...]

I shortened the quote a bit.

I have a big issue with your approach. All of the argumentation surrounding this topic takes highly optimized players in highly optimized trial groups and tries to construct a problem around this group while this group already is the top end of whats possible and only represents a fraction of the games population. There is no case made and if this is even a problem for less optimized or average players. The same is for the Kajiit "issue". Its a problem that will only appear for highly optimized players in highly optimized group. Thats a group of players that often choses the race based on whats most effective, not what they like best. This looks for me like a requerst to make changes to tailor this to the top tier players.

The cost change to Ash Cloud is an interesting idea. And it really does help to address the cost associated with having to reposition a ground based aoe repeatedly.

Would be cool to see that same cost change apply to all class based ground aoes.

Alexium wrote: »

Don't touch Mist Form! You will make this skill useless.

It still has its use in PVP...

Change aratic blast make it scale of max magicka.. Magicka warden need heals..

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

I think his point is that it is very difficult to get exactly 125% with Khajiit (or stamina in general for that matter).

That is exactly my point. Other races get "room to grow" through Brittle and Elemental Catalyst, but because Feline Ambush is 12%, you lose out, either being forced to go under the cap or go above it, essentially wasting your racial passive (that doesn't even have the decency to be free, since it costs skill points -- and before some smartass suggests simply removing points from your racial passives, it's 4%/8%/12%, never an even multiple of 5 to hit the cap).

Also, what in the world is this talk in the patch notes about "[making sure that Critical Chance] doesn't continue experiencing power creep as we add more options to build for it in the future"? "Build for it" suggests increasing one's Critical Damage, but the cap is already so low relative to sources of Critical Damage, and your base Critical Damage so high, that you can already hit and exceed the cap easily. If it's about adding a way to hit the cap solo, without any group support, you can already do that (50% base plus 15% Backstabber plus 10% Fighting Finesse plus 10% Minor Force -- with no target, even, thanks to Medusa or Channeled Acceleration -- plus 14% from seven Medium Armor plus 12% from Feline Ambush plus 17% from the Shadow makes 128%; assuming you were making some sort of ganking build, you'd have 10% from Nightblade -- to use Shadowy Disguise to force a Critical Hit -- and be any race, and still have 126%; you could run this as magicka with seven light armor as Khajiit and still get 124% -- hell, you'd have higher pen, too).

tomofhyrule wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Thank you for some of these DK changes. Looking forward to see how they end up playing.

I will say one of the things that I'd have liked to see is a buff to Protective Scale and its morphs. The 50% damage reduction seems so weak compared to similar skills from other classes (Crystallized Shield for Wardens), and makes it a lot harder to use. As an example, Z'Maja's Nocturnal's Favor in vCR is still decently dangerous to DKs, but Wardens can basically no-sell that attack.

See the difference between the DK Dragon Fire Scale and Warden's Crystallized Slab, both costing the same amount of mag:
DK: Flex your scales, reducing damage taken from projectiles by 50% for 6 seconds. When you are hit with a projectile, you retaliate by launching a fiery orb at the attacker that deals 1799 Flame Damage. This effect can occur once every half second.
W: Spin a shield of ice around you, absorbing up to 24791 damage from 3 projectiles. Each time you absorb a projectile you restore 831 Magicka and launch an icy bolt back at the enemy, dealing 1799 Frost Damage. This effect can occur once every half second.

The Warden's version can no-sell three projectiles from all but the toughest PvE mobs. It also restores mag for the Warden and reflects damage to the attacker. The DK version will still let 50% of the damage through regardless and then do the same amount of damage back with no other effects. Both last for 6 seconds — the Warden's can proc up to 3 times every half second, the DK's up to 12... but again that's not too useful in PvE boss encounters where the amount of reflected damage is pitiful and you're not getting 12 projectiles in 6 seconds. And that's not counting the fact that the Warden can recast it if its three uses are spent, giving it the potential of the same uptime but again no-selling the projectiles instead of letting half the damage through.

It just seems like the Warden version is so much better than the DK version, and it would be nice to get a little love for DK PvE tanks as well.

Warden doesn't even use crystallized slab anyway in most content. It's useful for vMA and is incredibly niche in PvP. Yes. It's a projectile damage shield. But like dk wings it also has another utility morph that is just better. The biggest problem with fire scale and crys slab is that in pvp, the damage is only useful when you're able to use it as pressure otherwise it's just some random projectile that doesn't do a whole lot to it's target. The utility morphs do not care about that at all. They're just defensive and have other effects you don't have to think twice about.

This is true. The damage reflected is a pittance, particularly for tanks who aren't expected to output damage in the first place.

But even for the utility morphs, Warden still outclasses DK. Wardens get 6s of Major Heroism when they absorb a projectile, whereas DKs get snare immunity for 2s. Having an increased warhorn/barrier uptime is great in PvE groups, while there aren't many times snare immunity will come in handy in PvE, particularly for such a short time. I guess you could try to tie it in with some of the CP stars, but that requires sacrifices in those areas.

In short, it just feels like Protective Scale and its morphs are inferior in almost every way to Crystallized Shield and its morphs, and that's what makes it feel a bit unbalanced. I'm sure there are some niche areas where the DK version is more useful, but just on paper it seems like Wardens have it better.

My response was not about that. It was about how crys slab and fire scale are just kinda too niche for their own good. Tbh they should both be reworked.

Since Elemental Succession is being nerfed, sets such as Silks of the Sun, Netch's Touch, Swamp Raider, and Ysgramor's Birthright should provide extra damage to all damage of the particular type. Rather than simply buff ability damage, it should also buff damage from light and heavy attacks, enchantments and poisons, and proc sets of the associated damage type. The fact that the sets only effect abilities renders them useless.

oterWitz wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Thank you for some of these DK changes. Looking forward to see how they end up playing.

I will say one of the things that I'd have liked to see is a buff to Protective Scale and its morphs. The 50% damage reduction seems so weak compared to similar skills from other classes (Crystallized Shield for Wardens), and makes it a lot harder to use. As an example, Z'Maja's Nocturnal's Favor in vCR is still decently dangerous to DKs, but Wardens can basically no-sell that attack.

See the difference between the DK Dragon Fire Scale and Warden's Crystallized Slab, both costing the same amount of mag:
DK: Flex your scales, reducing damage taken from projectiles by 50% for 6 seconds. When you are hit with a projectile, you retaliate by launching a fiery orb at the attacker that deals 1799 Flame Damage. This effect can occur once every half second.
W: Spin a shield of ice around you, absorbing up to 24791 damage from 3 projectiles. Each time you absorb a projectile you restore 831 Magicka and launch an icy bolt back at the enemy, dealing 1799 Frost Damage. This effect can occur once every half second.

The Warden's version can no-sell three projectiles from all but the toughest PvE mobs. It also restores mag for the Warden and reflects damage to the attacker. The DK version will still let 50% of the damage through regardless and then do the same amount of damage back with no other effects. Both last for 6 seconds — the Warden's can proc up to 3 times every half second, the DK's up to 12... but again that's not too useful in PvE boss encounters where the amount of reflected damage is pitiful and you're not getting 12 projectiles in 6 seconds. And that's not counting the fact that the Warden can recast it if its three uses are spent, giving it the potential of the same uptime but again no-selling the projectiles instead of letting half the damage through.

It just seems like the Warden version is so much better than the DK version, and it would be nice to get a little love for DK PvE tanks as well.

Warden doesn't even use crystallized slab anyway in most content. It's useful for vMA and is incredibly niche in PvP. Yes. It's a projectile damage shield. But like dk wings it also has another utility morph that is just better. The biggest problem with fire scale and crys slab is that in pvp, the damage is only useful when you're able to use it as pressure otherwise it's just some random projectile that doesn't do a whole lot to it's target. The utility morphs do not care about that at all. They're just defensive and have other effects you don't have to think twice about.

This is true. The damage reflected is a pittance, particularly for tanks who aren't expected to output damage in the first place.

But even for the utility morphs, Warden still outclasses DK. Wardens get 6s of Major Heroism when they absorb a projectile, whereas DKs get snare immunity for 2s. Having an increased warhorn/barrier uptime is great in PvE groups, while there aren't many times snare immunity will come in handy in PvE, particularly for such a short time. I guess you could try to tie it in with some of the CP stars, but that requires sacrifices in those areas.

In short, it just feels like Protective Scale and its morphs are inferior in almost every way to Crystallized Shield and its morphs, and that's what makes it feel a bit unbalanced. I'm sure there are some niche areas where the DK version is more useful, but just on paper it seems like Wardens have it better.

My response was not about that. It was about how crys slab and fire scale are just kinda too niche for their own good. Tbh they should both be reworked.

Crystal slabs is one of my favorite skills in the game. It is godmode for solo play. I don't think it should be reworked but I do think the dk equivalent should be changed so the two work much more similarly.

I think they should be different from eachother. I already don't like that they made fire scale less unique by just copy pasting crystal slab's effect on it instead of something else.