The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
ESO In-game Racial Diversity and How to Fix It
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Roylund✭✭Eshkerigal wrote: »Totally agree.
Imo I'd like to see racial passives with morphs. Let's look at nord. One of the most powerful mage was a nord, right? Nord should be able to choos between max stamina and max magicka, health regen or magicka regen, ult generation when getting damage or generate (a bit less) ult when you are dealing damage.
Shalidor was an exception, the vast majority or Nords are not magically inclined. I don't see why racial passives should focus on these exceptions as if they were reflective of the race as a whole, it cheapens the achievement of such characters in the lore since they became so good at what they did despite their race, not because of it.PrinceShroob wrote: »Flatly, the best way to improve racial diversity is to remove all racial passives (except for the first one that's "flavor," such as Argonian swim speed, Altmer extra experience, Imperial extra gold, etc.) and increase everyone's base stats to make up for it.
To begin, in single-player Elder Scrolls games, while their have been inflexible racial passives, your starting attributes never prevent you from maxing the attribute. Altmer start with 30 Strength but there's nothing stopping them from reaching 100 Strength, which is the same cap as everyone else. But in Online, your race affects your potential even with all else equal -- in the same gear and at the same skill level, an Altmer does more damage than a Bosmer on magicka specs because Altmer have a racial magicka boost and spell damage.
Yet racial abilities have never jibed well with the lore because, according to the lore, your race shouldn't impact your ability. Abnur Tharn is an incredibly powerful battlemage despite being an Imperial, for example, and even older games didn't pay much attention to racial "roles" (see Morrowind, where Dunmer are generalists while Bretons, Altmer, and Argonians start with 50 Intelligence, suggesting they're "supposed" to be mages yet Dunmer make up the majority of the magically-inclined House Telvanni faction). Current lore doesn't support a strict magicka/stamina divide among races; Bosmer are renowned archers but their Spinners are casters with reality-warping power; Orcs are skilled warriors but each traditional clan has its Wise Woman, a mage.
You're looking at this from a player compared with player perspective and that's why you have the wrong impression of racial passives vs reaching maximum potential. You're saying that someone like Abnur Tharn is a powerful battlemage despite being an Imperial, that's fair, but you can also be one despite being a Wood Elf or a Redguard in this game. Even without Magicka favored bonuses, you could be a better mage than the vast majority of characters we see in the game as evidenced by the fact that you can clear vet content with any race, in any role while remaining the hero of the story. The inefficiencies arise when you compare to other players running the same setup on a different race, but that's not an argument against your character not fulfilling the fantasy you want from it. Your Orc character might as well be the best mage on Tamriel from a lore perspective, it just won't show it on the learboards which is a player vs player perspective. I mean, you can beat Molag Bal in his own realm as an Orc mage, is your fantasy cheapened because you'd have parsed a little bit faster being a High Elf? If you felt like a badass warrior as an Altmer in Oblivion, you can do the same here too. You'll be able to finish all content and lorewise be stronger than anything you fight. Missing out on a couple of % vs Dark Elf, Khajiit, or Orc players doesn't change that part of the fantasy for you.
As an aside, I think part of the appeal of the ES world is how different races are and how they all have their unique lore. If racial choices were superficial then a lot of the magic in choosing them would be lost. I like that my Orcs feel like they are more durable in combat, that my Wood Elves are faster when sneaking, and that my Dark Elves are dynamic in the roles they can fulfill. Should that entire facet of TES be taken away just so Argonians or Nords get a couple % points up on their parse? It doesn't make sense to take exceptions in the lore and apply them generally to the racial passives. Just because Shalidor was a great mage (compared to the rest of the Nords that aren't magically inclined), or Orc strongholds have wise women (compared to the rest of the Orcs in the stronghold that know jack about magic), or Wood Elves have spinners (when they make up a small minority and most Wood Elves are instead nimble archers and thieves) mean that all Nords/Orc/Wood Elves/etc. should come with a boost to that area. Again, those examples are notable because they're exceptions, your starting traits in TES games have always reflected your race's inclinations as they appear in the general population. You work from there to achieve your desired fantasy.
Also I disagree with your assessment of older games and the lore. Dark Elves make the majority of the magically-inclined House Telvanni faction because, well, House Telvanni is a Dark Elf house in Morrowind. It'd be strange if it wasn't made up mostly of Dark Elves. As for being generalists, Dark Elves are still portrayed as good warriors and mages though, with them having military houses like Redoran and mages like Telvanni. Regarding stats, in older games your High Elf could be just as good as your Redguard as a warrior in terms of stats, but it did take some extra effort (you started off worse) and even then there were differences in abilities that might make them "less optimal" (Skyrim Highborn vs Adrenaline Rush would make High Elves worse than an equally statted Redguard). I agree that it would be cool if more non combat flavor was added to the races. It definitely helps in differentiating races and making it feel like your racial choice was significant.3 -
Sheezabeast✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭We get an absurd amount of free XP scrolls. XP pots are affordable. Double XP events are almost monthly. You get 8 character slots, you can opt to buy up to 18.
No excuse not to take advantage of all that and make a character. Seriously.Grand Master Crafter, Beta baby who grew with the game. PC/NA. @Sheezabeast if you have crafting needs!0 -
Adremal✭✭✭✭Eshkerigal wrote: »Totally agree.
Imo I'd like to see racial passives with morphs. Let's look at nord. One of the most powerful mage was a nord, right? Nord should be able to choos between max stamina and max magicka, health regen or magicka regen, ult generation when getting damage or generate (a bit less) ult when you are dealing damage.
I really like this idea, it'd open up a bunch of interesting options, it'd reinforce the much toted "play what you like" slogan and it wouldn't be really that difficult to balance since it's only 4 skills per race.
That being even in the current state of things I care more about liking my character than min-maxxing. Most of my characters are Argonians regardless of class and role and I've never had issues with any type of content. Then again I understand that some people might like to min-max - I like to min-max as well, just in other games - and thus feel forced into playing the meta race. Even to switch race based on flavor of the month patch.0 -
ZeroDPS✭✭✭✭Helllllo my dears!
I suggested a solution to this back when first racial passives changed, before Elsweyr launch.
Believe me the best solution here is to have racial blessings(kind of constellations/altars/just buffs) for every race. So I play ork running to Vvardenfell and get dark elves racial blessings, thats it I got dark elves passives, and ork passives got changed. Also they can make this MAX 2k crowns in the store. But better will be without any paywall
@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno0 -
ealdwin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Racial passives could, admittedly, be a bit more interesting or even improved slightly. The sustain-focused races see more fluctuation regarding their effectiveness depending on the general state of sustain. Some races don't match their general lore and examples set by previous games as well as they could. And then we have Ohmes Khajiit where previous games have Bosmer (strange that one is).
But the answer isn't to do away with them or make them choosable, that would reduce any uniqueness between them. Rather, the solution would be to find ways to add more unique flavor to the racial passives. In previous games, the bonuses to Bretons versus High Elves helped differentiate not only the defensive/offensive natures of the two, but also the general differences between magical aptitudes (Bretons bonus to Conjuration vs. High Elves bonus to Destruction, for instance). Without the schools of magic, that becomes harder to translate, but there are certainly ways to help differentiate the type of mage a Breton is versus a High Elf.2 -
Nanfoodle✭✭✭✭✭I dont like this idea at all. RPGs had more meaning in the past. Decisions open doors and closed other. It altered your gameplay. ESO still has some of this but chipping away at it further like this, only removes the RPG element and impacts the decisions others have made when making their char's.3 -
Franchise408✭✭✭✭✭I dont like this idea at all. RPGs had more meaning in the past. Decisions open doors and closed other. It altered your gameplay. ESO still has some of this but chipping away at it further like this, only removes the RPG element and impacts the decisions others have made when making their char's.
The problem with this is that there's not really much choice.
Despite what I said previously about all races being able to successfully play all roles (true), if you want best optimization, there is really only 1, maybe 2 choices per role.
Tank, Nord. Mag DPS, High Elf. Stam DPS, Orc. Healer, Breton or Argonian.
There's not really much in the way of choice in this game to begin with. So I don't disagree with your point about the meaningness of choices (it's one reason why I'm anti-class change token, and not a fan of race change tokens either), there's really no choices in this game if you're going for success.1 -
Iluvrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The OP seems to want to increase diversity by homogenizing all of the races.
It seems more than a little ironic to me.5 -
StarOfElyon✭✭✭✭✭
✭ResidentContrarian wrote: »Pray for Redguards...
Pray even harder for Redguard mag DKs...
I think I do OK with my Redguard hybrid DK. The reduced cost to weapon skills help some. They need a buff though. Maybe a damage bonus to weapon skills or increased trait effectiveness like a mini Heartland Conquerer passive (not my idea but a really good one).Edited by StarOfElyon on September 20, 2021 9:51PM1 -
Nanfoodle✭✭✭✭✭Franchise408 wrote: »I dont like this idea at all. RPGs had more meaning in the past. Decisions open doors and closed other. It altered your gameplay. ESO still has some of this but chipping away at it further like this, only removes the RPG element and impacts the decisions others have made when making their char's.
The problem with this is that there's not really much choice.
Despite what I said previously about all races being able to successfully play all roles (true), if you want best optimization, there is really only 1, maybe 2 choices per role.
Tank, Nord. Mag DPS, High Elf. Stam DPS, Orc. Healer, Breton or Argonian.
There's not really much in the way of choice in this game to begin with. So I don't disagree with your point about the meaningness of choices (it's one reason why I'm anti-class change token, and not a fan of race change tokens either), there's really no choices in this game if you're going for success.
This is not a problem, this is an RPG. Choice should matter. ESO has already watered down this too far.2 -
tomofhyrule✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Franchise408 wrote: »I dont like this idea at all. RPGs had more meaning in the past. Decisions open doors and closed other. It altered your gameplay. ESO still has some of this but chipping away at it further like this, only removes the RPG element and impacts the decisions others have made when making their char's.
The problem with this is that there's not really much choice.
Despite what I said previously about all races being able to successfully play all roles (true), if you want best optimization, there is really only 1, maybe 2 choices per role.
Tank, Nord. Mag DPS, High Elf. Stam DPS, Orc. Healer, Breton or Argonian.
There's not really much in the way of choice in this game to begin with. So I don't disagree with your point about the meaningness of choices (it's one reason why I'm anti-class change token, and not a fan of race change tokens either), there's really no choices in this game if you're going for success.
"I need to be the very best" and "I want to complete the content" are two very different things.
No race is excluded from doing the content. If you're going for some sweaty trials guild, then yes they'll dictate what race you need - along with your armor, your weapons, your skills, your mundus, etc. There is 'BiS' and then there's 'trash.'
But for anyone who's not in a sweaty guild, you can do whatever you want. I have only one character I take into content, and he's an Orc tank. I've done all vet content except BRP (just started my prog) and VH, but I've still managed HMs for all basegames and over half the DLC dungeons. I'm not super sweaty about it though - I'll try to do them if I have a group, but I know I'm also not the best ever since I'm not that hardcore of a player. Also I will give him a staff over my dead body, so I know that's also screwing my utility.
And yet I can still do a lot of content - probably more than around 70% of the players in the game already. Despite the fact that Orcs aren't a 'tank' race.
So if you only define 'success' as "I'm getting a world record for Godslayer," then yes, you have little choice in the matter. But if 'success' just means "I can complete content," then you can take whatever you want and still be able to do it.Edited by tomofhyrule on September 21, 2021 1:19PM2 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
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Zenimax specifically stated they "didn’t outright balance each race to be equal in every avenue of the game".
That quote came from a post a Zos employee named Gilliam posted.
It’s weird that they openly admit to lazy race design, but whatever. I guess shalidor wasn’t really a nord then. (That last bit was sarcasm.)
It’s also strange how the base stand alone games have racials and yet still allow any race to play any build with equal success. Yet for the mmo they are stumped in doing something similar.
There was not an addition to a lazy race design and that once quoted sentence is just part of the explanation Zenimax provided.
They admitted and explained a very well-thought-out design that lead to us having multiple races to choose from for each type of build. There is no way to make every race a good choice for every build unless the passives were made useless, pointless, or removed the passives.
Edited by Amottica on September 21, 2021 1:29PM0 -
Franchise408✭✭✭✭✭tomofhyrule wrote: »Franchise408 wrote: »I dont like this idea at all. RPGs had more meaning in the past. Decisions open doors and closed other. It altered your gameplay. ESO still has some of this but chipping away at it further like this, only removes the RPG element and impacts the decisions others have made when making their char's.
The problem with this is that there's not really much choice.
Despite what I said previously about all races being able to successfully play all roles (true), if you want best optimization, there is really only 1, maybe 2 choices per role.
Tank, Nord. Mag DPS, High Elf. Stam DPS, Orc. Healer, Breton or Argonian.
There's not really much in the way of choice in this game to begin with. So I don't disagree with your point about the meaningness of choices (it's one reason why I'm anti-class change token, and not a fan of race change tokens either), there's really no choices in this game if you're going for success.
"I need to be the very best" and "I want to complete the content" are two very different things.
No race is excluded from doing the content. If you're going for some sweaty trials guild, then yes they'll dictate what race you need - along with your armor, your weapons, your skills, your mundus, etc. There is 'BiS' and then there's 'trash.'
But for anyone who's not in a sweaty guild, you can do whatever you want. I have only one character I take into content, and he's an Orc tank. I've done all vet content except BRP (just started my prog) and VH, but I've still managed HMs for all basegames and over half the DLC dungeons. I'm not super sweaty about it though - I'll try to do them if I have a group, but I know I'm also not the best ever since I'm not that hardcore of a player. Also I will give him a staff over my dead body, so I know that's also screwing my utility.
And yet I can still do a lot of content - probably more than around 70% of the players in the game already. Despite the fact that Orcs aren't a 'tank' race.
So if you only define 'success' as "I'm getting a world record for Godslayer," then yes, you have little choice in the matter. But if 'success' just means "I can complete content," then you can take whatever you want and still be able to do it.
I agree, hence my earlier post asking "define bad", because any race can play any role in any content and be successful I.E. complete any content in this game, including vet trials. I know this because, again, I have off-meta race choices, i.e. Wood Elf tank, Redguard mag DPS, Dark Elf healer, etc.
My comment was in response to the person saying "choice should matter", but the dichotomy in ESO is either 1. choice doesn't matter (anything can do anything and do it successfully) or 2. there is no choice to be had (there is only 1 choice if you want to be the most efficient)
The choice shouldn't be whether 1 race is the optimal race for a role or not, and rather, each race offers specializations for you to individualize your builds, as it was in the single player TES games.
Unfortunately, with ESO, it's either the choice doesn't matter or there is no choice.1 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Deciding to go for "optimal"/min-max/BiS (or not) is the 'choice'. You're choosing to restrict your class/skill/race/stat/build in a certain way. When you could alternatively choose to not follow meta that strongly.
And each of those choices has consequences.
And there's nothing wrong with that.4 -
Thavie✭✭✭✭
I play stamina breton and do in vet trials just fine. My DPS would be a little bit higher if I picked something else, but am I still able to do whatever content I want? Sure!"We grew under a bad sun"1 -
Nanfoodle✭✭✭✭✭
I play stamina breton and do in vet trials just fine. My DPS would be a little bit higher if I picked something else, but am I still able to do whatever content I want? Sure!
Thread comes down to more if you are a min / maxer or not and the conflict that causes if you also like to RP. I love choices =-)1 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Franchise408 wrote: »My comment was in response to the person saying "choice should matter", but the dichotomy in ESO is either 1. choice doesn't matter (anything can do anything and do it successfully) or 2. there is no choice to be had (there is only 1 choice if you want to be the most efficient)
.
And how is that different from any other (traditional) RPG? Except your race not locking you out from certain classes.
There will always a "most efficient" combination. Even if you'd erase racials completely, there is still a BiS build that you "have to" run if you want the be the most efficient.
Knocking out racial choices is just taking away a tiny spoke in the wheel that consists of mundus stones, CP, sets, food, skills, passives and rotation. Next logical stop would be to stream line what of that?1 -
Gaebriel0410✭✭✭✭✭This is entirely a player mindset issue imo, and not a game/lore issue at all.
For example, Bretons have a whole knightly tradition as well as a magical one, but their magic bonus stats are there because of their elven heritage. Training and skill at arms is not hereditary, and as such is reflected in the weapons and armour you choose. Redguards have their stamina stats not because they fight with swords a lot, but because they live in a desert and are much hardier in that aspect. Wood elves are naturally agile, and so on.
Just choose the race you find most appealing appearance- and lore wise, you'll probably have much more fun in the game and won't get annoyed or feel 'forced' to racechange every patch. I can't even imagine that people feel like racechanging 18 chars for that reason, as I read somewhere above.
The tiny advantage from stats is not needed to complete anything unless maybe you're trying to win the super competitive top time trial professional sponsored gamer crown. And let's be honest, that's a thing that 99,9% of the players complaining about it, probably never reach.
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DMuehlhausen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Nord Templar Healer more than good enough for anything.
You only run into the this when you try to play with the most competitive people. Truth is you can do anything in the game with the mix of any class and race.
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Franchise408✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Franchise408 wrote: »My comment was in response to the person saying "choice should matter", but the dichotomy in ESO is either 1. choice doesn't matter (anything can do anything and do it successfully) or 2. there is no choice to be had (there is only 1 choice if you want to be the most efficient)
.
And how is that different from any other (traditional) RPG? Except your race not locking you out from certain classes.
There will always a "most efficient" combination. Even if you'd erase racials completely, there is still a BiS build that you "have to" run if you want the be the most efficient.
Knocking out racial choices is just taking away a tiny spoke in the wheel that consists of mundus stones, CP, sets, food, skills, passives and rotation. Next logical stop would be to stream line what of that?
How is it different? Well for one, in a traditional TES game (we're gonna go with Elder Scrolls, since that is what this game is), your "most efficient" combination really means nothing. In all games but Skyrim, you can become max efficiency with literally every skill in the game, so a build really means nothing. Skyrim is the only game where you can't max efficiency in every skill, due to perks, forcing you to actually have to make choices, but even then, despite the meme about the stealth archer, you can max out literally any type of build to be over-powered by the 20's anyways. So your build doesn't really matter in a regular TES game, because you're gonna end up OP regardless. You certainly won't be locked out of content in a TES game like you can be in ESO if you're not "max efficiency" (don't believe me? Look at the threads complaining about "fake" roles, asking why they got kicked from groups, and talk to literally anyone in this forum or in game about DPS requirements to do trials)
So now, unlike, say, Skyrim where you can kill Alduin with any build setup, or Morrowind where you can defeat Dagoth Ur with any build setup (or in the case of Morrowind and Oblivion, you can literally level every skill up to 100 and get every perk that comes with them and not even have a build because you are max power at everything), you are forced into certain build setups if you want to participate in the end game. So you no longer have a choice between what sort of tank style you want to be, or how you want to dish out damage, or what methods you want to take to heal and protect your party and keep them alive. Your choice is taken away, and you need to have the right race, skills, gear, mundus, etc.
That's no longer a roleplay choice with consequences. I made roleplay choices in TES. In Morrowind, I was a Wood Elf archer mage, so I had less magicka to be able to rely on my magic, but I had some extra abilities with a bow and arrow to take out enemies. In Oblivion, I had The Atronach sign, so I had to find other means to replenish my magicka resources (this actually added a whole new layer of RP as my character became an Ayleid Ruins scavenger, hunting for Welkynd stones to fuel my magicka). In Skyrim, I was a dual wielding, heavy armored necromancer tank, meaning I could take out anything face to face, but was helpless at range. Those were choices with consequences, and no content was gated from me.
In this game? Want to tank? You better be a Nord or you can't play. Want to DPS? Better be a High Elf mage or Orc 2h or dual wielder, or you can't play. That's not effective choice. That's telling you what you have to be in order to play the game.
Choice would be "I joined the Aldmeri Dominion, so that means I am seen as an enemy in Mournhold", but they took that out of the game.
I'm not advocating for the removal of racials. Actually, on the contrary. I'm advocating for a game design system that allows those racials to individualize builds and give builds variety, rather than just say "you're a DPS so play a High Elf". I would love a system that instead says "as a High Elf, I want to use my magical abilities to enhance my tanking, and protect myself from threats magically through magical shields and other forms of magic". I could do that in Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim.
I would get laughed out of the group in ESO.Edited by Franchise408 on September 21, 2021 7:40PM2 -
AlnilamE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Franchise408 wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Franchise408 wrote: »My comment was in response to the person saying "choice should matter", but the dichotomy in ESO is either 1. choice doesn't matter (anything can do anything and do it successfully) or 2. there is no choice to be had (there is only 1 choice if you want to be the most efficient)
.
In this game? Want to tank? You better be a Nord or you can't play. Want to DPS? Better be a High Elf mage or Orc 2h or dual wielder, or you can't play. That's not effective choice. That's telling you what you have to be in order to play the game.
Choice would be "I joined the Aldmeri Dominion, so that means I am seen as an enemy in Mournhold", but they took that out of the game.
I'm not advocating for the removal of racials. Actually, on the contrary. I'm advocating for a game design system that allows those racials to individualize builds and give builds variety, rather than just say "you're a DPS so play a High Elf". I would love a system that instead says "as a High Elf, I want to use my magical abilities to enhance my tanking, and protect myself from threats magically through magical shields and other forms of magic". I could do that in Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim.
I would get laughed out of the group in ESO.
In that case you are hanging out with the wrong people, but that's not a game design problem.The Moot Councillor2 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Zenimax specifically stated they "didn’t outright balance each race to be equal in every avenue of the game".
That quote came from a post a Zos employee named Gilliam posted.
It’s weird that they openly admit to lazy race design, but whatever. I guess shalidor wasn’t really a nord then. (That last bit was sarcasm.)
It’s also strange how the base stand alone games have racials and yet still allow any race to play any build with equal success. Yet for the mmo they are stumped in doing something similar.
The illusion that all races can't do everything in the game is completely a figment of your imagination.
Let go of this fiction and simply enjoy playing the game.0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Franchise408 wrote: »]you are forced into certain build setups if you want to participate in the end game. So you no longer have a choice between what sort of tank style you want to be, or how you want to dish out damage, or what methods you want to take to heal and protect your party and keep them alive. Your choice is taken away, and you need to have the right race, skills, gear, mundus, etc.
I was going to write a lengthy answer on how you can meet every dps requirement on every race/class combination and how people can be pricks either way (forcing own standards on others vs. wasting other peoples time in GF by not living up to chosen role no matter the build).
But I boil it down to the most important part, the bolded one. If you replace racials with a background system, you would not get build freedom but simplyFranchise408 wrote: »Your choice is taken away, and you need to have the right race background, skills, gear, mundus, etc.
On your idea:Franchise408 wrote: »]'m advocating for a game design system that allows those racials to individualize builds and give builds variety, rather than just say "you're a DPS so play a High Elf". I would love a system that instead says "as a High Elf, I want to use my magical abilities to enhance my tanking, and protect myself from threats magically through magical shields and other forms of magic".
We already have options to do so. It's called CP system, set options and skills. If you want to mag shield tank, you very well can. It won't fail because of your racials.0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Franchise408 wrote: »
Maybe, but this topic is about racials, not about the grand scheme of things on build options and the concept of a meta.0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Zenimax specifically stated they "didn’t outright balance each race to be equal in every avenue of the game".
That quote came from a post a Zos employee named Gilliam posted.
It’s weird that they openly admit to lazy race design, but whatever. I guess shalidor wasn’t really a nord then. (That last bit was sarcasm.)
It’s also strange how the base stand alone games have racials and yet still allow any race to play any build with equal success. Yet for the mmo they are stumped in doing something similar.
There was not an addition to a lazy race design and that once quoted sentence is just part of the explanation Zenimax provided.
They admitted and explained a very well-thought-out design that lead to us having multiple races to choose from for each type of build. There is no way to make every race a good choice for every build unless the passives were made useless, pointless, or removed the passives.
Really? Does this “well thought out” design explain why woodelves, in every base es game were masters at stealth, and now lag behind imperials in that department?
Or orcs, who are supposed to use their blacksmithing to make them selves armored “tanks” specialized in heavy armor in every stand alone es game, are now medium armor wearing barbarians?
Or Nords, who are supposed to be those medium armor clad bezerkers, and have legendary mages, fall far short of that where actual players are concerned?
The race design in eso is L-A-Z-Y. They could have followed lore, but nope. They could have made the races adaptable to any type of build, nope again. They could have AT LEAST made each role have three of four race choices that were equally good at it, nope again.
Yeah, I can choose a nord as a spell caster (I have actually), but I can also use an economy hatchback to tow a boat.
The point? There should be no bad choices coming out of character creation. Before a player sets foot into Tamriel they should not have already “lost” the ability to be the best at what they can possibly be.1 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
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I play stamina breton and do in vet trials just fine. My DPS would be a little bit higher if I picked something else, but am I still able to do whatever content I want? Sure!
Congrats! I have a Breton stam blade as well, alongside a wood elf stam blade for trials, and a dark elf stam blade to boot.
I also know that when I play them I am purposely making things harder on myself then I should be.
It’s bad race design, I should not have been put at a disadvantage because I did not want to play an orc nb.0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »
Zenimax specifically stated they "didn’t outright balance each race to be equal in every avenue of the game".
That quote came from a post a Zos employee named Gilliam posted.
It’s weird that they openly admit to lazy race design, but whatever. I guess shalidor wasn’t really a nord then. (That last bit was sarcasm.)
It’s also strange how the base stand alone games have racials and yet still allow any race to play any build with equal success. Yet for the mmo they are stumped in doing something similar.
The illusion that all races can't do everything in the game is completely a figment of your imagination.
Let go of this fiction and simply enjoy playing the game.
And yet I can find build guides that recommend some races for builds over others, a shared delusion I expect? (Sarcasm)
It’s not a great feeling when I choose a race to play that I am purposely making my build less viable before I even get a chance to move around in the game space.
I have nord mag characters because they exist in lore. I have dark elf stealth assassin because they too exist in lore. The current racials though seem to suggest those things don’t happen, and that is bad race design.
It’s not a figment of my imagination, that eso can’t design racials in a way that reflect the actual game world that the game developers themselves created.Edited by BlueRaven on September 22, 2021 12:12PM0 -
Franchise408✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Franchise408 wrote: »
Maybe, but this topic is about racials, not about the grand scheme of things on build options and the concept of a meta.
This thread is about racials and the concept of certain races, due to their passive, being the only choice for particular roles. I.E. the meta0 -
phileunderx2✭✭✭✭✭
✭So you are saying that if someone were to make a Nord necromancer healer that they would not be able to complete end game content with it.
Which is weird as I have a Nord necromancer healer and I use her successfully in end game content and I should not be able to complete vet trials nor vet dlc content.. But how is it that I have done so? Multiple times, in many different venues?
Seriously race isn't that big of a deal.2