ESO In-game Racial Diversity and How to Fix It

merpins

So right now, racial diversity in game is a bit poor. You have your good race choices for each role, your decent racial choices for each role, and your bad choices for each role. A handful of which just being bad due to nerfs, changes, or just being forever forgotten. For example, as a magicka dps, you're basically down to Khajiit or High Elf for high dps, or Breton if you want better sustain. All other choices are bad (at end game). How do we fix this? I can see two options here; the more possible option that's a cash grab but would be nice as an option, and the less likely that isn't a cash grab but probably won't happen.

More likely option.
Cosmetics. I'm not saying like skins, we kinda have those already. I mean a cash shop item, like the name change and race change token, that lets you change your race and appearance without changing your racial bonuses. They could charge 3-3.5k crowns for it, and it would let people be an Argonian as a DPS or a Nord as a healer without being severely suboptimal at endgame. This is a cash grab, sure, but so is any race, any alliance. So is having to pay money to change your appearance at all. It's fine, it's cosmetic, I do not mind having more cosmetic options in the cash shop since they don't affect gameplay when you buy em. So long as it's not P2W, it's fine by me, and would be a welcome addition in my opintion.

Less likely option.
Racial skill choice. What I mean here is the ability to choose what set of racial skills you want, based on the criteria that are already available in-game. They just take all the passives from racial choices, and make them constellation choices like in Oblivion. Maybe keep the original racial skill, the one that makes it easier to level up a skill line, the same with every race. It's flavor and doesn't really need to be included here, since it doesn't effect end-game, but this in particular would be a more accurate representation of Elder Scrolls lore, while at the same time be healthier for the game in my opinion since everyone could play the race they want, but not be hampered by the end game optimization.

Less likely option part 2.
Or. They could do the less likely option and paygate it like any race any alliance. W/e, I wouldn't mind that either.

jaws343

I run dark elf with mag just fine. We are talking like 2 to 3% difference in dps. Oh well, boo hoo. Just use whatever race you want.

Amottica

jaws343 wrote: »

I run dark elf with mag just fine. We are talking like 2 to 3% difference in dps. Oh well, boo hoo. Just use whatever race you want.

I do not think it is even 1% difference between a dark elf and a high elf, which is what i assume is the comparison. Both get 258 SD and high elf gets 2k max mag where dark elf gets only 1910 max mag. If I have this right then that difference would seem close to a rounding error.

There seem to be multiple very viable race choices for both and stam builds along with race options for better sustain. There are also some choices that are good for what some call a hybrid build.

I think this is a very good design.

BlueRaven

jaws343 wrote: »

I run dark elf with mag just fine. We are talking like 2 to 3% difference in dps. Oh well, boo hoo. Just use whatever race you want.

How would your mag build be if you used a wood elf? Or a nord?

I think that was the point.

xgoku1

Up for active racial skill. It's there in other TES games.

Could be something like "Summon ancestral ghost" for Dunmer.

They could also add more non-combat passives to other races like the Orsimer's better inspiration passive.

merpins

Amottica wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

I run dark elf with mag just fine. We are talking like 2 to 3% difference in dps. Oh well, boo hoo. Just use whatever race you want.

I do not think it is even 1% difference between a dark elf and a high elf, which is what i assume is the comparison. Both get 258 SD and high elf gets 2k max mag where dark elf gets only 1910 max mag. If I have this right then that difference would seem close to a rounding error.

There seem to be multiple very viable race choices for both and stam builds along with race options for better sustain. There are also some choices that are good for what some call a hybrid build.

I think this is a very good design.

Absolutely, the stat allotment is a good design. But what if you, I dunno... Wanted to cosmetically look like a Nord? Or an Argonian? It's not about the design being bad, but about allowing people to be whatever race they wanna look like, which would bring in races that aren't seen as much these days (dark elves, wood elves, argonians on non-healers, etc). With this setup as well it also would allow them to make new constellations (racial abilities) as well, giving you more options. It's not just making it cosmetic, but also opening the design team up to more options in the future.

Amottica

BlueRaven wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

I run dark elf with mag just fine. We are talking like 2 to 3% difference in dps. Oh well, boo hoo. Just use whatever race you want.

How would your mag build be if you used a wood elf? Or a nord?

I think that was the point.

Zenimax specifically stated they "didn’t outright balance each race to be equal in every avenue of the game".

That quote came from a post a Zos employee named Gilliam posted.

Amottica

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

I run dark elf with mag just fine. We are talking like 2 to 3% difference in dps. Oh well, boo hoo. Just use whatever race you want.

I do not think it is even 1% difference between a dark elf and a high elf, which is what i assume is the comparison. Both get 258 SD and high elf gets 2k max mag where dark elf gets only 1910 max mag. If I have this right then that difference would seem close to a rounding error.

There seem to be multiple very viable race choices for both and stam builds along with race options for better sustain. There are also some choices that are good for what some call a hybrid build.

I think this is a very good design.

Absolutely, the stat allotment is a good design. But what if you, I dunno... Wanted to cosmetically look like a Nord? Or an Argonian? It's not about the design being bad, but about allowing people to be whatever race they wanna look like, which would bring in races that aren't seen as much these days (dark elves, wood elves, argonians on non-healers, etc). With this setup as well it also would allow them to make new constellations (racial abilities) as well, giving you more options. It's not just making it cosmetic, but also opening the design team up to more options in the future.

Well, it seems Zenimax is not interested in making that possible based on the comment I noted in the post above.

Sorry, but Zenimax wishes to keep the ESO history and lore of racial passives in the game.

PrinceShroob

Flatly, the best way to improve racial diversity is to remove all racial passives (except for the first one that's "flavor," such as Argonian swim speed, Altmer extra experience, Imperial extra gold, etc.) and increase everyone's base stats to make up for it.

To begin, in single-player Elder Scrolls games, while their have been inflexible racial passives, your starting attributes never prevent you from maxing the attribute. Altmer start with 30 Strength but there's nothing stopping them from reaching 100 Strength, which is the same cap as everyone else. But in Online, your race affects your potential even with all else equal -- in the same gear and at the same skill level, an Altmer does more damage than a Bosmer on magicka specs because Altmer have a racial magicka boost and spell damage.

Yet racial abilities have never jibed well with the lore because, according to the lore, your race shouldn't impact your ability. Abnur Tharn is an incredibly powerful battlemage despite being an Imperial, for example, and even older games didn't pay much attention to racial "roles" (see Morrowind, where Dunmer are generalists while Bretons, Altmer, and Argonians start with 50 Intelligence, suggesting they're "supposed" to be mages yet Dunmer make up the majority of the magically-inclined House Telvanni faction). Current lore doesn't support a strict magicka/stamina divide among races; Bosmer are renowned archers but their Spinners are casters with reality-warping power; Orcs are skilled warriors but each traditional clan has its Wise Woman, a mage.

Current racial passives are never going to please everyone, whether because they don't capture the proper spirit or prior lore of the race (I myself have always disliked that Bretons are given purely magical bonuses despite having a lot of lore involving knightly orders and political subterfuge) or because of balance impact (you know that if Argonians became a top-tier DPS race everyone would complain about "having" to make an "ugly" character). And this is a good way to stave off accusations of pay-to-win (Imperials are already purchased in the Crown Store and many people want additional races), balance headaches (with regard to the upcoming patch, a Critical Damage cap could be considered a nerf to Khajiit, who have a racial passive increasing their Critical Damage, despite this not necessarily being the developers' intention), and generally further the goal of "playing how one wants."

(I should also note that if racial passives were removed, I'd like to see every race get something as fun as Argonian swim speed or Bosmer fall damage reduction. Nothing that would impact balance, just something you wouldn't get with another race that'd maintain the feeling of choice while not also dictating that such-and-such race is The Only Option for a certain role.)

RandomKodiak

When you can make a Wood Elf Magsorc and only be about 5-6% behind the races designed to be mag I see no problem. As someone pointed out above you have 3 BiS seperated by less than 2% difference, 3 that are about 3-4% behind but more than doable for endgame and the rest only fall to 6% behind at most I'd say it is very well balanced. You want to play a magicka Nord go for it, the only thing that will ever be out of your reach is joining an end game, score pushing guild and running with it.

Hurbster

Be a bit boring if everything was homogenised.

Hlaaluna

I would be really disappointed if the only difference in the races was how they look. That would be so boring.

Vive la différence

Thannazzar

The races I play are based primarily on Aesthetics rather than Stats, I tend only to play Bosmer, Redgard and Nords, and the occasional Dunmer or Bosmer, never had any affinity for the `Furries' races and wont play am Altmer on principal after Skyrim.

wheresbes

BlueRaven wrote: »

How would your mag build be if you used a wood elf? Or a nord?

By Shalidor, we do great!!

Btw, I like OP's "less likely option".

RecktrithiusOediphitry

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

For example, as a magicka dps, you're basically down to Khajiit or High Elf for high dps, or Breton if you want better sustain. All other choices are bad (at end game).

Nope, Dunmer is just as good, especially if you like changing between stam and mag playstyles. Not to mention how handy fire resistance is.

Ariont

For diversity we have 10 races that can be any class. that seems to open a lot of possibilities IMHO.

AcadianPaladin

What I would prefer is that my race choice have exactly the same combat/stat/skill consequences as my gender choice.

RodneyRegis

Surely the issue is that Zos keep changing passives?

When I started playing, Redguard and High Elf were BIS.

Then it went orc and Breton.

Now it's Khajit and Dunmer.

I've got 18 alts and 12 are DPS. That's a lot of cash to respec.

If passives are changed we should get free race changes, same as we sometimes get free skill respecs.

Ippokrates

The ultimate goal of each race is to be able to clear the whole content of the game, so as such I would say the only and real test of race viability are vet arenas. Only there they need to prove themselves as in other forms of content, they can simply cooperate with others.

From this perspective I would say we are quite good and even more, as in Arenas I found that some less popular races as Redguard (especially Redguard ) or Bosmer could have better results than typical quartet of DPS Mers -_-

But regardless of any change, you will always have meta chasers, so one races will be more popular than others. ALWAYS.

And yes, I appreciate changes they made to races few patches ago - I am running Altmer Stamsorc & maining Orc Templar which in fact is somewhat hybrid build of stamina supported by magic aaaaand I have a lot of fun with them. Those changes were good.

And I am looking forward to any change they could make as for now race abilities are rather rudimentary and surely could be develop further. I would love to see Argonian with bonus also to poisons or even DOT, or Khajiit tanks with discount to roll dodge or maybe chance for unique dodge kinda Meridia's Armour style or Redguard swordsingers that could support their martial abilities with "magic" (just like Orcs now ;p ).

Eventually some "morph" options for passive so for example as an Imperial we can select military background and go stamina or arcane background and turn out to be another Tharn ;p

Yes, I know that discount to skills cost represent that all, but somehow I do not feel that this chunky bonus to health & stamina fit to all these imperial sorcereses we are meeting during our voyages through Tamriel ^^

colossalvoids

The only things I'd be up to are racial skills/ultimate or racials morphs to make up for some rough edges, but right now passives looking to me way better than years ago and the difference is too small to really care, we have enough things out of the race to make up.

BlueRaven

Amottica wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

I run dark elf with mag just fine. We are talking like 2 to 3% difference in dps. Oh well, boo hoo. Just use whatever race you want.

How would your mag build be if you used a wood elf? Or a nord?

I think that was the point.

Zenimax specifically stated they "didn’t outright balance each race to be equal in every avenue of the game".

That quote came from a post a Zos employee named Gilliam posted.

It’s weird that they openly admit to lazy race design, but whatever. I guess shalidor wasn’t really a nord then. (That last bit was sarcasm.)

It’s also strange how the base stand alone games have racials and yet still allow any race to play any build with equal success. Yet for the mmo they are stumped in doing something similar.

AcadianPaladin

BlueRaven wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

I run dark elf with mag just fine. We are talking like 2 to 3% difference in dps. Oh well, boo hoo. Just use whatever race you want.

How would your mag build be if you used a wood elf? Or a nord?

I think that was the point.

Zenimax specifically stated they "didn’t outright balance each race to be equal in every avenue of the game".

That quote came from a post a Zos employee named Gilliam posted.

It’s weird that they openly admit to lazy race design, but whatever. I guess shalidor wasn’t really a nord then. (That last bit was sarcasm.)

It’s also strange how the base stand alone games have racials and yet still allow any race to play any build with equal success. Yet for the mmo they are stumped in doing something similar.

I agree very much. I think the difference in ESO is the stam/mag choice upon which damage is based. The consequences of that design choice filter down to race with more restrictive results than in previous TES games.

Kolzki

Keep the existing passives. Give each race a short quest line to unlock a swap to their passives without any appearance change.

EF321

How about everyone has "attack" skill that does static amount of damage for everyone. Abilities and sets and races and classes are not needed. Walk around and click attack.

Alarde

All racial passives are useful, but not essential. You can perform well with whatever. Even if you don't care about looks, picking the best performing race for your role will not guarantee you anything. Bretons run out of magicka too, same way that nords are not natural tanks because a passive bonus (specially after the armor changes).

People need to care a bit less and start playing what they want. There's no way a character will not use his racial passives. Even in a PvE magicka DPS redguard you can siphon good stamina and survive well against crazy dungeon mechanics.

ResidentContrarian

Pray for Redguards...

Pray even harder for Redguard mag DKs...

Kiralyn2000

BlueRaven wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

I run dark elf with mag just fine. We are talking like 2 to 3% difference in dps. Oh well, boo hoo. Just use whatever race you want.

How would your mag build be if you used a wood elf? Or a nord?

More than enough for the content.

Never enough for the "Meta or get kicked" crowd. But nothing would ever be enough for them.

Franchise408

Define "bad" in end game?

Because any race can play any role successfully in end game. I have Wood Elf tanks and Redguard healers that I have successfully run through trials.

It might not be the most efficient or optimized, but the difference that is lost is a sliver, and it is still more than capable of clearing content.

So, define "bad". Because to me, non-optimal =/= "bad"

Eshkerigal

Totally agree.

Imo I'd like to see racial passives with morphs. Let's look at nord. One of the most powerful mage was a nord, right? Nord should be able to choos between max stamina and max magicka, health regen or magicka regen, ult generation when getting damage or generate (a bit less) ult when you are dealing damage.

Chilly-McFreeze

Then, when everyone picks the same meta racial stack for their role, we have truely archieved a diverse build concept, yes?

jaws343

BlueRaven wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

I run dark elf with mag just fine. We are talking like 2 to 3% difference in dps. Oh well, boo hoo. Just use whatever race you want.

How would your mag build be if you used a wood elf? Or a nord?

I think that was the point.

It would be fine. Still within a few % points of DPS. Maybe I change my mundus to adjust.