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Dizzying Swing needs a rework to be a competitive option for PvP
-
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Yay, lets reduce cast time so those who are maining stamsorc can finally push their ultimate combo... XD
Actually no they wouldn't be able to. Dizzy having a cast time actually allows stamsorcs to line up 3 abilities in 1 GCD ( pre cast Cwep > Dizzying Swing > Ultimate or Executioner. Removing the cast time means you can only do Cwep > Dizzying Swing. At best, you can do Cwep > Bound Arms > Dizzying Swing. In a way it's a nerf for sorc burst, but a buff for sustained dmg.
Yeah, but Crystal weapon & psijic weapon (and Overload) are going with LA, so you can land all 3 at once for opening, instead of having an 0.8 sec gap.
You aren't going to use overload with a melee build. It's not reliable in melee range. Try it and see for yourself.
Did it, it was fun.
When you're fighting high level players fun isn't equal to effective.
So I have tested few combinations:
- Crystal + Psijic + LA + Brawler
- Crystal + Psijic + LA + Execute
- Crystal + Psijic + LA
Not only my LA component has been doubled by Overload but also I had a range flexibility, especially nice thing to see in option nr 3.
How was that proverb about bad dancer blame? ^^
Here's one very very simple thing I can do to make your entire combo a waste:
Wait for it...
Wait for it...
Roll dodge. Boom 6k stam wasted for nothing.0 -
Ippokrates✭✭✭✭✭Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Yay, lets reduce cast time so those who are maining stamsorc can finally push their ultimate combo... XD
Actually no they wouldn't be able to. Dizzy having a cast time actually allows stamsorcs to line up 3 abilities in 1 GCD ( pre cast Cwep > Dizzying Swing > Ultimate or Executioner. Removing the cast time means you can only do Cwep > Dizzying Swing. At best, you can do Cwep > Bound Arms > Dizzying Swing. In a way it's a nerf for sorc burst, but a buff for sustained dmg.
Yeah, but Crystal weapon & psijic weapon (and Overload) are going with LA, so you can land all 3 at once for opening, instead of having an 0.8 sec gap.
You aren't going to use overload with a melee build. It's not reliable in melee range. Try it and see for yourself.
Did it, it was fun.
When you're fighting high level players fun isn't equal to effective.
So I have tested few combinations:
- Crystal + Psijic + LA + Brawler
- Crystal + Psijic + LA + Execute
- Crystal + Psijic + LA
Not only my LA component has been doubled by Overload but also I had a range flexibility, especially nice thing to see in option nr 3.
How was that proverb about bad dancer blame? ^^
Here's one very very simple thing I can do to make your entire combo a waste:
Wait for it...
Wait for it...
Roll dodge. Boom 6k stam wasted for nothing.
Which could be done with every direct st skill ^^
But luckily ESO is no Witcher 3, you cannot roll in eternity.5 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Yay, lets reduce cast time so those who are maining stamsorc can finally push their ultimate combo... XD
Actually no they wouldn't be able to. Dizzy having a cast time actually allows stamsorcs to line up 3 abilities in 1 GCD ( pre cast Cwep > Dizzying Swing > Ultimate or Executioner. Removing the cast time means you can only do Cwep > Dizzying Swing. At best, you can do Cwep > Bound Arms > Dizzying Swing. In a way it's a nerf for sorc burst, but a buff for sustained dmg.
Yeah, but Crystal weapon & psijic weapon (and Overload) are going with LA, so you can land all 3 at once for opening, instead of having an 0.8 sec gap.
You aren't going to use overload with a melee build. It's not reliable in melee range. Try it and see for yourself.
Did it, it was fun.
When you're fighting high level players fun isn't equal to effective.
So I have tested few combinations:
- Crystal + Psijic + LA + Brawler
- Crystal + Psijic + LA + Execute
- Crystal + Psijic + LA
Not only my LA component has been doubled by Overload but also I had a range flexibility, especially nice thing to see in option nr 3.
How was that proverb about bad dancer blame? ^^
Here's one very very simple thing I can do to make your entire combo a waste:
Wait for it...
Wait for it...
Roll dodge. Boom 6k stam wasted for nothing.
Which could be done with every direct st skill ^^
But luckily ESO is no Witcher 3, you cannot roll in eternity.
Right, but with the specific combo you mentioned, you're stacking 3 single target skill into 1 GCD. It's entirely different than say, i use Surprise Attack 3 times. Both situations still cost 3 GCDs, but since you're stacking 3 abilities into 1 GCD, a roll dodge avoids all 3 attacks, whereas if i wanted to avoid all 3 Surprise Attacks, i'd have to roll dodge 3 times. Does that make sense?3 -
Ippokrates✭✭✭✭✭Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Yay, lets reduce cast time so those who are maining stamsorc can finally push their ultimate combo... XD
Actually no they wouldn't be able to. Dizzy having a cast time actually allows stamsorcs to line up 3 abilities in 1 GCD ( pre cast Cwep > Dizzying Swing > Ultimate or Executioner. Removing the cast time means you can only do Cwep > Dizzying Swing. At best, you can do Cwep > Bound Arms > Dizzying Swing. In a way it's a nerf for sorc burst, but a buff for sustained dmg.
Yeah, but Crystal weapon & psijic weapon (and Overload) are going with LA, so you can land all 3 at once for opening, instead of having an 0.8 sec gap.
You aren't going to use overload with a melee build. It's not reliable in melee range. Try it and see for yourself.
Did it, it was fun.
When you're fighting high level players fun isn't equal to effective.
So I have tested few combinations:
- Crystal + Psijic + LA + Brawler
- Crystal + Psijic + LA + Execute
- Crystal + Psijic + LA
Not only my LA component has been doubled by Overload but also I had a range flexibility, especially nice thing to see in option nr 3.
How was that proverb about bad dancer blame? ^^
Here's one very very simple thing I can do to make your entire combo a waste:
Wait for it...
Wait for it...
Roll dodge. Boom 6k stam wasted for nothing.
Which could be done with every direct st skill ^^
But luckily ESO is no Witcher 3, you cannot roll in eternity.
Right, but with the specific combo you mentioned, you're stacking 3 single target skill into 1 GCD. It's entirely different than say, i use Surprise Attack 3 times. Both situations still cost 3 GCDs, but since you're stacking 3 abilities into 1 GCD, a roll dodge avoids all 3 attacks, whereas if i wanted to avoid all 3 Surprise Attacks, i'd have to roll dodge 3 times. Does that make sense?
Yeah, but the topic is about Dizzy Swing, so if there is interval between LA & Skill (similar to snipe) defender has much more chances to roll than with instant. And that's why dizzy is good as it is.
Plus as you mentioned in previous discussions, pvp is not pve when you can spamming to get burst. So if a good pvp build has around 3k recovery, it can easily cast crystal and spam psijic in opportunity to take a strike. Cause pvp should be game of wits, right? No one force you to make a swing at earliest opportunity, what could be so predictable...0 -
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MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Yay, lets reduce cast time so those who are maining stamsorc can finally push their ultimate combo... XD
Actually no they wouldn't be able to. Dizzy having a cast time actually allows stamsorcs to line up 3 abilities in 1 GCD ( pre cast Cwep > Dizzying Swing > Ultimate or Executioner. Removing the cast time means you can only do Cwep > Dizzying Swing. At best, you can do Cwep > Bound Arms > Dizzying Swing. In a way it's a nerf for sorc burst, but a buff for sustained dmg.
Yeah, but Crystal weapon & psijic weapon (and Overload) are going with LA, so you can land all 3 at once for opening, instead of having an 0.8 sec gap.
You aren't going to use overload with a melee build. It's not reliable in melee range. Try it and see for yourself.
Did it, it was fun.
When you're fighting high level players fun isn't equal to effective.
So I have tested few combinations:
- Crystal + Psijic + LA + Brawler
- Crystal + Psijic + LA + Execute
- Crystal + Psijic + LA
Not only my LA component has been doubled by Overload but also I had a range flexibility, especially nice thing to see in option nr 3.
How was that proverb about bad dancer blame? ^^
Here's one very very simple thing I can do to make your entire combo a waste:
Wait for it...
Wait for it...
Roll dodge. Boom 6k stam wasted for nothing.
Which could be done with every direct st skill ^^
But luckily ESO is no Witcher 3, you cannot roll in eternity.
Right, but with the specific combo you mentioned, you're stacking 3 single target skill into 1 GCD. It's entirely different than say, i use Surprise Attack 3 times. Both situations still cost 3 GCDs, but since you're stacking 3 abilities into 1 GCD, a roll dodge avoids all 3 attacks, whereas if i wanted to avoid all 3 Surprise Attacks, i'd have to roll dodge 3 times. Does that make sense?
Yeah, but the topic is about Dizzy Swing, so if there is interval between LA & Skill (similar to snipe) defender has much more chances to roll than with instant. And that's why dizzy is good as it is.
Plus as you mentioned in previous discussions, pvp is not pve when you can spamming to get burst. So if a good pvp build has around 3k recovery, it can easily cast crystal and spam psijic in opportunity to take a strike. Cause pvp should be game of wits, right? No one force you to make a swing at earliest opportunity, what could be so predictable...
I was specifically talking about the Crystal + psijic + overload combo you brought up. That’s 2 GCD used already. Supposed ZOS removed Dizzy cast time, then you’d add a Dizzy after that combo. 3 GCD + an overload, all stacked into that specific Dizzy GCD. If I roll dodge, I avoid the entire Overload + Crystal + Psijic combo as well as the Dizzy cast. That’s what I meant.
The purpose of removing the cast time for Dizzy is to turn it into a true spammable. The damage will be less than its current tooltip, but it’s easier to land and can be used reliably as a spammable.0 -
Ippokrates✭✭✭✭✭Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Yay, lets reduce cast time so those who are maining stamsorc can finally push their ultimate combo... XD
Actually no they wouldn't be able to. Dizzy having a cast time actually allows stamsorcs to line up 3 abilities in 1 GCD ( pre cast Cwep > Dizzying Swing > Ultimate or Executioner. Removing the cast time means you can only do Cwep > Dizzying Swing. At best, you can do Cwep > Bound Arms > Dizzying Swing. In a way it's a nerf for sorc burst, but a buff for sustained dmg.
Yeah, but Crystal weapon & psijic weapon (and Overload) are going with LA, so you can land all 3 at once for opening, instead of having an 0.8 sec gap.
You aren't going to use overload with a melee build. It's not reliable in melee range. Try it and see for yourself.
Did it, it was fun.
When you're fighting high level players fun isn't equal to effective.
So I have tested few combinations:
- Crystal + Psijic + LA + Brawler
- Crystal + Psijic + LA + Execute
- Crystal + Psijic + LA
Not only my LA component has been doubled by Overload but also I had a range flexibility, especially nice thing to see in option nr 3.
How was that proverb about bad dancer blame? ^^
Here's one very very simple thing I can do to make your entire combo a waste:
Wait for it...
Wait for it...
Roll dodge. Boom 6k stam wasted for nothing.
Which could be done with every direct st skill ^^
But luckily ESO is no Witcher 3, you cannot roll in eternity.
Right, but with the specific combo you mentioned, you're stacking 3 single target skill into 1 GCD. It's entirely different than say, i use Surprise Attack 3 times. Both situations still cost 3 GCDs, but since you're stacking 3 abilities into 1 GCD, a roll dodge avoids all 3 attacks, whereas if i wanted to avoid all 3 Surprise Attacks, i'd have to roll dodge 3 times. Does that make sense?
Yeah, but the topic is about Dizzy Swing, so if there is interval between LA & Skill (similar to snipe) defender has much more chances to roll than with instant. And that's why dizzy is good as it is.
Plus as you mentioned in previous discussions, pvp is not pve when you can spamming to get burst. So if a good pvp build has around 3k recovery, it can easily cast crystal and spam psijic in opportunity to take a strike. Cause pvp should be game of wits, right? No one force you to make a swing at earliest opportunity, what could be so predictable...
I was specifically talking about the Crystal + psijic + overload combo you brought up. That’s 2 GCD used already. Supposed ZOS removed Dizzy cast time, then you’d add a Dizzy after that combo. 3 GCD + an overload, all stacked into that specific Dizzy GCD. If I roll dodge, I avoid the entire Overload + Crystal + Psijic combo as well as the Dizzy cast. That’s what I meant.
The purpose of removing the cast time for Dizzy is to turn it into a true spammable. The damage will be less than its current tooltip, but it’s easier to land and can be used reliably as a spammable.
And what is the point of that? ATM Dizzy Swing & Wrecking Blow have one of the best coef in the game, 1.25. If you reduce that, skill will not only be a similar to typical class spammable but also it will lose it rpg aspect.
Moreover, if you only reduced dmg & keep bonuses like off-balance of DS, it would mean that now, every stam build could be turned into NB. Or even worse, cause NB must attack from a flank, while DS not. Where is sense in that?
So the idea is bad. Things like DS or Snipe should be powerful but with cast time to provide enough diversity of skills, so we would not go back to ping-pong (which could be admired by pvpers but utterly boring for all others).Edited by Ippokrates on September 3, 2021 5:51PM2 -
gariondavey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Dizzy should be a move you do that isn't targeted. It could be an arc swing in front of you that does damage and stuns after the 2nd hit. Like brawler but a smaller angle (and longer range)PC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden2 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Yay, lets reduce cast time so those who are maining stamsorc can finally push their ultimate combo... XD
Actually no they wouldn't be able to. Dizzy having a cast time actually allows stamsorcs to line up 3 abilities in 1 GCD ( pre cast Cwep > Dizzying Swing > Ultimate or Executioner. Removing the cast time means you can only do Cwep > Dizzying Swing. At best, you can do Cwep > Bound Arms > Dizzying Swing. In a way it's a nerf for sorc burst, but a buff for sustained dmg.
Yeah, but Crystal weapon & psijic weapon (and Overload) are going with LA, so you can land all 3 at once for opening, instead of having an 0.8 sec gap.
You aren't going to use overload with a melee build. It's not reliable in melee range. Try it and see for yourself.
Did it, it was fun.
When you're fighting high level players fun isn't equal to effective.
So I have tested few combinations:
- Crystal + Psijic + LA + Brawler
- Crystal + Psijic + LA + Execute
- Crystal + Psijic + LA
Not only my LA component has been doubled by Overload but also I had a range flexibility, especially nice thing to see in option nr 3.
How was that proverb about bad dancer blame? ^^
Here's one very very simple thing I can do to make your entire combo a waste:
Wait for it...
Wait for it...
Roll dodge. Boom 6k stam wasted for nothing.
Which could be done with every direct st skill ^^
But luckily ESO is no Witcher 3, you cannot roll in eternity.
Right, but with the specific combo you mentioned, you're stacking 3 single target skill into 1 GCD. It's entirely different than say, i use Surprise Attack 3 times. Both situations still cost 3 GCDs, but since you're stacking 3 abilities into 1 GCD, a roll dodge avoids all 3 attacks, whereas if i wanted to avoid all 3 Surprise Attacks, i'd have to roll dodge 3 times. Does that make sense?
Yeah, but the topic is about Dizzy Swing, so if there is interval between LA & Skill (similar to snipe) defender has much more chances to roll than with instant. And that's why dizzy is good as it is.
Plus as you mentioned in previous discussions, pvp is not pve when you can spamming to get burst. So if a good pvp build has around 3k recovery, it can easily cast crystal and spam psijic in opportunity to take a strike. Cause pvp should be game of wits, right? No one force you to make a swing at earliest opportunity, what could be so predictable...
I was specifically talking about the Crystal + psijic + overload combo you brought up. That’s 2 GCD used already. Supposed ZOS removed Dizzy cast time, then you’d add a Dizzy after that combo. 3 GCD + an overload, all stacked into that specific Dizzy GCD. If I roll dodge, I avoid the entire Overload + Crystal + Psijic combo as well as the Dizzy cast. That’s what I meant.
The purpose of removing the cast time for Dizzy is to turn it into a true spammable. The damage will be less than its current tooltip, but it’s easier to land and can be used reliably as a spammable.
And what is the point of that? ATM Dizzy Swing & Wrecking Blow have one of the best coef in the game, 1.25. If you reduce that, skill will not only be a similar to typical class spammable but also it will lose it rpg aspect.
Moreover, if you only reduced dmg & keep bonuses like off-balance of DS, it would mean that now, every stam build could be turned into NB. Or even worse, cause NB must attack from a flank, while DS not. Where is sense in that?
So the idea is bad. Things like DS or Snipe should be powerful but with cast time to provide enough diversity of skills, so we would not go back to ping-pong (which could be admired by pvpers but utterly boring for all others).
I can tell you two reasons why current dizzying swing is bad.
1/ Compared to its old version with 1.0s cast time and super high tooltip, current dizzy still has a cast time, but deals 1k less burst dmg. In a high MMR BG, you are not going to have a chance to land more than 2 dizzies, and I say this as a FACT. Go watch a high MMR full premade BG game and see how many ppl use Dizzy. Literally almost all of them have become either speedy one shot players, or sustained CC pressure. When you are getting rooted, stunned, and eating 20k+ dmg PER PERSON, you aren’t going to have the luxury to wait for your dizzy to cast. But let’s say you are a masochist and you still wanna use dizzy, fine. You’re gonna land a hit or two if you have good positioning, but the damage isn’t there. It’s nerfed compared to its previous version. With the previous version, you’d still only be able to land one or two hits, but you had higher damage and could likely secure a kill.
2/ Compared to other instant spammables, you are disadvantaged. Sure you do more dmg than their spammables, but you have a cast time, and that is your biggest drawback. Any good player can see it from a mile away and block/roll dodge before you can even land your combo. You know what’s worse? THEY CAN HIT YOU WHILE DOING THOSE THINGS. Fight a rollerblade with dizzy and see what I mean. They can cancel surprise attack with a roll to avoid your dizzy, while still dishing out pressure. Fight a magdk who block casts their molten whip. Good luck trying to land a single full dmg dizzy on them.
Edited by MadeInVN on September 3, 2021 6:15PM1 -
Nord_Raseri✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Dizzying Swing shouldn't be both a pub stomper and a high end skill in the first place IMO. It's everywhere and shouldn't be buffed.
It was never a high end skill though. Back when it had the high tooltip and 1s cast time it was a pure pug stomper. Most players ran DW with steel tornado or SnB front bar instead of dizzying swing.
Now it's not top tier and not as good of a pug stomper as it used to be. Making it instant cast would remove it from being a pug stomper, but make it better for high level PvP. In contrast, reverting it to the previous version would make it a better pug stomper, but much easier to dodge.
I kind of miss this days. Yeah, every stam player was spin-to-win, but my bleed build was fun(back when bleeds did less but ignored armor). Also had a nord stamblade that I almost oneshot a tank using berserker strike from sealth in the middle of his zerg. Also miss the ulti gen from carve. Stamsorc was faster than everyone else and DKs and WWs leapt onto keep walls. Good times.Veit ég aðég hékk vindga meiði á nætr allar níu, geiri undaðr og gefinn Oðni, sjálfr sjálfum mér, á þeim meiði er manngi veit hvers hann af rótum rennr.0 -
itscompton✭✭✭✭✭
✭gariondavey wrote: »Dizzy should be a move you do that isn't targeted. It could be an arc swing in front of you that does damage and stuns after the 2nd hit. Like brawler but a smaller angle (and longer range)
I very much like this idea. If you changed nothing else but made it be an untargeted cast it would allow for the user to anticipate movement to land hits. It should keep its cast time and strength but it's currently fairly easy to use movement speed (or streak) to keep the user from being able to cast it. This change wouldn't make any difference in blows that would have landed regardless but would reward a skilled player being able to anticipate the opponents movement. The cast could already be completed and swinging as they come into the hit box, instead of it starting only when they do and then being canceled midcast if/when they quickly move out of the hit box again.3 -
Ippokrates✭✭✭✭✭Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Yay, lets reduce cast time so those who are maining stamsorc can finally push their ultimate combo... XD
Actually no they wouldn't be able to. Dizzy having a cast time actually allows stamsorcs to line up 3 abilities in 1 GCD ( pre cast Cwep > Dizzying Swing > Ultimate or Executioner. Removing the cast time means you can only do Cwep > Dizzying Swing. At best, you can do Cwep > Bound Arms > Dizzying Swing. In a way it's a nerf for sorc burst, but a buff for sustained dmg.
Yeah, but Crystal weapon & psijic weapon (and Overload) are going with LA, so you can land all 3 at once for opening, instead of having an 0.8 sec gap.
You aren't going to use overload with a melee build. It's not reliable in melee range. Try it and see for yourself.
Did it, it was fun.
When you're fighting high level players fun isn't equal to effective.
So I have tested few combinations:
- Crystal + Psijic + LA + Brawler
- Crystal + Psijic + LA + Execute
- Crystal + Psijic + LA
Not only my LA component has been doubled by Overload but also I had a range flexibility, especially nice thing to see in option nr 3.
How was that proverb about bad dancer blame? ^^
Here's one very very simple thing I can do to make your entire combo a waste:
Wait for it...
Wait for it...
Roll dodge. Boom 6k stam wasted for nothing.
Which could be done with every direct st skill ^^
But luckily ESO is no Witcher 3, you cannot roll in eternity.
Right, but with the specific combo you mentioned, you're stacking 3 single target skill into 1 GCD. It's entirely different than say, i use Surprise Attack 3 times. Both situations still cost 3 GCDs, but since you're stacking 3 abilities into 1 GCD, a roll dodge avoids all 3 attacks, whereas if i wanted to avoid all 3 Surprise Attacks, i'd have to roll dodge 3 times. Does that make sense?
Yeah, but the topic is about Dizzy Swing, so if there is interval between LA & Skill (similar to snipe) defender has much more chances to roll than with instant. And that's why dizzy is good as it is.
Plus as you mentioned in previous discussions, pvp is not pve when you can spamming to get burst. So if a good pvp build has around 3k recovery, it can easily cast crystal and spam psijic in opportunity to take a strike. Cause pvp should be game of wits, right? No one force you to make a swing at earliest opportunity, what could be so predictable...
I was specifically talking about the Crystal + psijic + overload combo you brought up. That’s 2 GCD used already. Supposed ZOS removed Dizzy cast time, then you’d add a Dizzy after that combo. 3 GCD + an overload, all stacked into that specific Dizzy GCD. If I roll dodge, I avoid the entire Overload + Crystal + Psijic combo as well as the Dizzy cast. That’s what I meant.
The purpose of removing the cast time for Dizzy is to turn it into a true spammable. The damage will be less than its current tooltip, but it’s easier to land and can be used reliably as a spammable.
And what is the point of that? ATM Dizzy Swing & Wrecking Blow have one of the best coef in the game, 1.25. If you reduce that, skill will not only be a similar to typical class spammable but also it will lose it rpg aspect.
Moreover, if you only reduced dmg & keep bonuses like off-balance of DS, it would mean that now, every stam build could be turned into NB. Or even worse, cause NB must attack from a flank, while DS not. Where is sense in that?
So the idea is bad. Things like DS or Snipe should be powerful but with cast time to provide enough diversity of skills, so we would not go back to ping-pong (which could be admired by pvpers but utterly boring for all others).
I can tell you two reasons why current dizzying swing is bad.
1/ Compared to its old version with 1.0s cast time and super high tooltip, current dizzy still has a cast time, but deals 1k less burst dmg. In a high MMR BG, you are not going to have a chance to land more than 2 dizzies, and I say this as a FACT. Go watch a high MMR full premade BG game and see how many ppl use Dizzy. Literally almost all of them have become either speedy one shot players, or sustained CC pressure. When you are getting rooted, stunned, and eating 20k+ dmg PER PERSON, you aren’t going to have the luxury to wait for your dizzy to cast. But let’s say you are a masochist and you still wanna use dizzy, fine. You’re gonna land a hit or two if you have good positioning, but the damage isn’t there. It’s nerfed compared to its previous version. With the previous version, you’d still only be able to land one or two hits, but you had higher damage and could likely secure a kill.
2/ Compared to other instant spammables, you are disadvantaged. Sure you do more dmg than their spammables, but you have a cast time, and that is your biggest drawback. Any good player can see it from a mile away and block/roll dodge before you can even land your combo. You know what’s worse? THEY CAN HIT YOU WHILE DOING THOSE THINGS. Fight a rollerblade with dizzy and see what I mean. They can cancel surprise attack with a roll to avoid your dizzy, while still dishing out pressure. Fight a magdk who block casts their molten whip. Good luck trying to land a single full dmg dizzy on them.
And that is exactly fine. You have poweful attack that can grant you empower or put your enemy off-balance, but it can be seen and avoided by experienced fighters. That's how it should be.
If it not work for you, look for other options ESO is offering. Like above mentioned DW. And approach every combat with individual solution, not rely on dizzy spamming ^^
1 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Nord_Raseri wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Dizzying Swing shouldn't be both a pub stomper and a high end skill in the first place IMO. It's everywhere and shouldn't be buffed.
It was never a high end skill though. Back when it had the high tooltip and 1s cast time it was a pure pug stomper. Most players ran DW with steel tornado or SnB front bar instead of dizzying swing.
Now it's not top tier and not as good of a pug stomper as it used to be. Making it instant cast would remove it from being a pug stomper, but make it better for high level PvP. In contrast, reverting it to the previous version would make it a better pug stomper, but much easier to dodge.
I kind of miss this days. Yeah, every stam player was spin-to-win, but my bleed build was fun(back when bleeds did less but ignored armor). Also had a nord stamblade that I almost oneshot a tank using berserker strike from sealth in the middle of his zerg. Also miss the ulti gen from carve. Stamsorc was faster than everyone else and DKs and WWs leapt onto keep walls. Good times.
Yea, only the OGs know why dizzying swing is being used so much. I remember when heroic/deep slash had the tooltip of an actual spammable, and reverb bash had major defile. Steel tornado had an execute scaling with 9m range, basically a better pug stomper than dizzy with the benefit of group play viability. And dizzy was just good ole dizzy. Knock back was super fun for stomping pugs, but it pretty much ended there. I gotta say tho, dizzy knockback into a fat leap was a killer combo lol. I miss those days.2 -
Redguards_Revenge✭✭✭✭Redguards_Revenge wrote: »Dizzy Swing is fine where it's at.
I remember some years ago I removed jabs off my bar and used dizzy swing. There were 2 reasons for this
1. Dizzy Swing is a Single Target Direct Damage move. Meaning it's damage wasn't nerfed by major and minor evasion.
2. When the first Dizzy Swing lands, the second hit is always free after the knockback. This forced them to go for trying to blast their heals. Then they would get knocked back again and then hit with a second free hit, then force them to heal. Repeated this and their resources would run out and they would die from Dizzy spam.
3. The damage dealt onto a player was higher than jabs.
It was fun that's why I came on to the forums and wrote satire about how jabs was useless compared to the dizzy swing. In pvp I went from average to a god. I even had the video proof.
It pretty much became an I Win button. So ZoS finally changed it to what it is right now. It is fair, reliable and useful.
I use it all the time on DK (Which is far better than Templar in everything in my opinion)
I put the DoTs on, I weave dizzy and heavy attacks while my DoTs stay on.
I should say I am comparing a stam Templar to stam DK.
NB takes the cake from both of them. I don't even cloak on NB. I use the healing option.
Every suggestion you make is to try and fix your own build. It's not to balance the game.
I'm sorry but if you actually fought anybody good you wouldn't think dizzy was good. Killing random pugs doesn't matter.
I fight against the best. When I see somebody wipe a whole group alone I run to them and try to get a 1 V 1 knowing I won't win. I continually run to them and fight them. When they beat me, I ask them about their build and they are usually kind to break it down for me. (If they are not, then they aren't confident in their skills) I realize my advantages and disadvantages and can tell if I can beat them or not. The more I fight them the more I see the openings I need to exploit to get them down.
There was only one build I knew I could never beat.
I was in BGs and one of my team mates were destroying everyone. All 8 of them. They could not kill them. So I whispered to them that I wanted pvp them.
They were a warden with vatesheran destro staff and possibly vatesheran 2h. They didn't tell me the rest of the build.
They were able to build to be tanky and also deal a lot of damage.
I concluded that the build was impossible to beat. (Well if 8 people couldn't drop them how could one?) I thanked them and told them that I would be taking a six month break from the game. They told me that they were allegedly using the build to show zos that it was OP.
I told them, if this is the direction the game will go, I can't be a part of it. I think it's a well known pattern that ZoS uses.
When they changed the sets, I wanted to fight them. I created a build that was powerful and might have been able to stand up to it. I wouldn't be able to kill them, but simply living would be enough. Then I could start tweaking the build removing the defenses.
The person was nowhere to be found. They quit the game. I am not sure if it's because ZoS removed their power fantasy or they realized using such a build that didn't require effort wasn't really fun after a while.
One thing was certain, nothing is constant in ESO, everything is subject to change.
For the record, I was one of the people who made sure sithis didn't go live from what was previously on the PTS because I knew some builds did not block at all. To have all that health and defenses on one hat was crazy. That would have led me on a 1 year hiatus.
[snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on September 4, 2021 10:19AM2 -
gariondavey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Some more ideas:
Dizzy fling - you throw your weapon at them
Dizzy sling - you chuck some rocks at them from a slingshot on your weapon
Dizzy bling - you show them your fancy-arse weapon with all them shiny gems and jewels and they are stunned with awe
Dizzy sing - you stab your sword into the ground and use the pommel as a make shift microphone
Dizzy king - wack them on the head (crown) with the hilt
Dizzy Ming - yeet them back to the Ming DynastyPC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden5 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Yay, lets reduce cast time so those who are maining stamsorc can finally push their ultimate combo... XD
Actually no they wouldn't be able to. Dizzy having a cast time actually allows stamsorcs to line up 3 abilities in 1 GCD ( pre cast Cwep > Dizzying Swing > Ultimate or Executioner. Removing the cast time means you can only do Cwep > Dizzying Swing. At best, you can do Cwep > Bound Arms > Dizzying Swing. In a way it's a nerf for sorc burst, but a buff for sustained dmg.
Yeah, but Crystal weapon & psijic weapon (and Overload) are going with LA, so you can land all 3 at once for opening, instead of having an 0.8 sec gap.
You aren't going to use overload with a melee build. It's not reliable in melee range. Try it and see for yourself.
Did it, it was fun.
When you're fighting high level players fun isn't equal to effective.
So I have tested few combinations:
- Crystal + Psijic + LA + Brawler
- Crystal + Psijic + LA + Execute
- Crystal + Psijic + LA
Not only my LA component has been doubled by Overload but also I had a range flexibility, especially nice thing to see in option nr 3.
How was that proverb about bad dancer blame? ^^
Here's one very very simple thing I can do to make your entire combo a waste:
Wait for it...
Wait for it...
Roll dodge. Boom 6k stam wasted for nothing.
Which could be done with every direct st skill ^^
But luckily ESO is no Witcher 3, you cannot roll in eternity.
Right, but with the specific combo you mentioned, you're stacking 3 single target skill into 1 GCD. It's entirely different than say, i use Surprise Attack 3 times. Both situations still cost 3 GCDs, but since you're stacking 3 abilities into 1 GCD, a roll dodge avoids all 3 attacks, whereas if i wanted to avoid all 3 Surprise Attacks, i'd have to roll dodge 3 times. Does that make sense?
Yeah, but the topic is about Dizzy Swing, so if there is interval between LA & Skill (similar to snipe) defender has much more chances to roll than with instant. And that's why dizzy is good as it is.
Plus as you mentioned in previous discussions, pvp is not pve when you can spamming to get burst. So if a good pvp build has around 3k recovery, it can easily cast crystal and spam psijic in opportunity to take a strike. Cause pvp should be game of wits, right? No one force you to make a swing at earliest opportunity, what could be so predictable...
I was specifically talking about the Crystal + psijic + overload combo you brought up. That’s 2 GCD used already. Supposed ZOS removed Dizzy cast time, then you’d add a Dizzy after that combo. 3 GCD + an overload, all stacked into that specific Dizzy GCD. If I roll dodge, I avoid the entire Overload + Crystal + Psijic combo as well as the Dizzy cast. That’s what I meant.
The purpose of removing the cast time for Dizzy is to turn it into a true spammable. The damage will be less than its current tooltip, but it’s easier to land and can be used reliably as a spammable.
And what is the point of that? ATM Dizzy Swing & Wrecking Blow have one of the best coef in the game, 1.25. If you reduce that, skill will not only be a similar to typical class spammable but also it will lose it rpg aspect.
Moreover, if you only reduced dmg & keep bonuses like off-balance of DS, it would mean that now, every stam build could be turned into NB. Or even worse, cause NB must attack from a flank, while DS not. Where is sense in that?
So the idea is bad. Things like DS or Snipe should be powerful but with cast time to provide enough diversity of skills, so we would not go back to ping-pong (which could be admired by pvpers but utterly boring for all others).
I can tell you two reasons why current dizzying swing is bad.
1/ Compared to its old version with 1.0s cast time and super high tooltip, current dizzy still has a cast time, but deals 1k less burst dmg. In a high MMR BG, you are not going to have a chance to land more than 2 dizzies, and I say this as a FACT. Go watch a high MMR full premade BG game and see how many ppl use Dizzy. Literally almost all of them have become either speedy one shot players, or sustained CC pressure. When you are getting rooted, stunned, and eating 20k+ dmg PER PERSON, you aren’t going to have the luxury to wait for your dizzy to cast. But let’s say you are a masochist and you still wanna use dizzy, fine. You’re gonna land a hit or two if you have good positioning, but the damage isn’t there. It’s nerfed compared to its previous version. With the previous version, you’d still only be able to land one or two hits, but you had higher damage and could likely secure a kill.
2/ Compared to other instant spammables, you are disadvantaged. Sure you do more dmg than their spammables, but you have a cast time, and that is your biggest drawback. Any good player can see it from a mile away and block/roll dodge before you can even land your combo. You know what’s worse? THEY CAN HIT YOU WHILE DOING THOSE THINGS. Fight a rollerblade with dizzy and see what I mean. They can cancel surprise attack with a roll to avoid your dizzy, while still dishing out pressure. Fight a magdk who block casts their molten whip. Good luck trying to land a single full dmg dizzy on them.
And that is exactly fine. You have poweful attack that can grant you empower or put your enemy off-balance, but it can be seen and avoided by experienced fighters. That's how it should be.
If it not work for you, look for other options ESO is offering. Like above mentioned DW. And approach every combat with individual solution, not rely on dizzy spamming ^^
But it isn’t fine. The meta is defined by experienced players using abilities and sets that perform best in high level PvP. Right now the meta doesn’t include dizzying swing in it. Pugs will die to dizzying swing or surprise attack or whatever ability a good player use. It doesn’t matter. But when 2 good players fight, dizzying swing is hot dumpster. I’m not making this thread so ppl can come in and tell others to “play another build”. That is already a no brainer. I’m trying to raise awareness about this issue and also ask for a buff.Edited by MadeInVN on September 3, 2021 6:32PM1 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I personally think dizzy is in a pretty good place. Certainly many skills could do with a rework before it IMO. I say this as a reasonably good player, I'm not the best... But I do ok.
I agree it's best used to knock someone's training wheels off, but can be utilised against better players who normally avoid or block the medium weave. Eventually your opponent has to eat some dizzys.
Dizzy is still favoured in most duelling tournaments on stam characters that aren't nightblades or templars. At least in the ones I attend... Rending does rival it, but you need master's to make it do so. Though it doesn't directly buff dizzy, vate 2h offers a lot more than master DW in terms of burst and overall damage output. I think the entire DW skill line needs review prior to dizzy being seen. If anything I think dizzy should lose its snare.1 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭Redguards_Revenge wrote: »Redguards_Revenge wrote: »Dizzy Swing is fine where it's at.
I remember some years ago I removed jabs off my bar and used dizzy swing. There were 2 reasons for this
1. Dizzy Swing is a Single Target Direct Damage move. Meaning it's damage wasn't nerfed by major and minor evasion.
2. When the first Dizzy Swing lands, the second hit is always free after the knockback. This forced them to go for trying to blast their heals. Then they would get knocked back again and then hit with a second free hit, then force them to heal. Repeated this and their resources would run out and they would die from Dizzy spam.
3. The damage dealt onto a player was higher than jabs.
It was fun that's why I came on to the forums and wrote satire about how jabs was useless compared to the dizzy swing. In pvp I went from average to a god. I even had the video proof.
It pretty much became an I Win button. So ZoS finally changed it to what it is right now. It is fair, reliable and useful.
I use it all the time on DK (Which is far better than Templar in everything in my opinion)
I put the DoTs on, I weave dizzy and heavy attacks while my DoTs stay on.
I should say I am comparing a stam Templar to stam DK.
NB takes the cake from both of them. I don't even cloak on NB. I use the healing option.
Every suggestion you make is to try and fix your own build. It's not to balance the game.
I'm sorry but if you actually fought anybody good you wouldn't think dizzy was good. Killing random pugs doesn't matter.
I fight against the best. When I see somebody wipe a whole group alone I run to them and try to get a 1 V 1 knowing I won't win. I continually run to them and fight them. When they beat me, I ask them about their build and they are usually kind to break it down for me. (If they are not, then they aren't confident in their skills) I realize my advantages and disadvantages and can tell if I can beat them or not. The more I fight them the more I see the openings I need to exploit to get them down.
There was only one build I knew I could never beat.
I was in BGs and one of my team mates were destroying everyone. All 8 of them. They could not kill them. So I whispered to them that I wanted pvp them.
They were a warden with vatesheran destro staff and possibly vatesheran 2h. They didn't tell me the rest of the build.
They were able to build to be tanky and also deal a lot of damage.
I concluded that the build was impossible to beat. (Well if 8 people couldn't drop them how could one?) I thanked them and told them that I would be taking a six month break from the game. They told me that they were allegedly using the build to show zos that it was OP.
I told them, if this is the direction the game will go, I can't be a part of it. I think it's a well known pattern that ZoS uses.
When they changed the sets, I wanted to fight them. I created a build that was powerful and might have been able to stand up to it. I wouldn't be able to kill them, but simply living would be enough. Then I could start tweaking the build removing the defenses.
The person was nowhere to be found. They quit the game. I am not sure if it's because ZoS removed their power fantasy or they realized using such a build that didn't require effort wasn't really fun after a while.
One thing was certain, nothing is constant in ESO, everything is subject to change.
For the record, I was one of the people who made sure sithis didn't go live from what was previously on the PTS because I knew some builds did not block at all. To have all that health and defenses on one hat was crazy. That would have led me on a 1 year hiatus.
[snip]
Actually you don’t know how experienced I am. We never fought or played together. But you are free to test me if you play on PC NA. Personally, I have fought players from different servers. PC EU, XBOX NA, PS4 NA, etc. I think I’m more than experienced enough to talk about this matter.
I’m glad to know you aren’t inexperienced as you claimed. [snip] Fight a good player who knows what he’s doing = can see the drawbacks of dizzy relatively quick. You mentioned dropping jabs to slot dizzy. That was back when Shuffle was usable on heavy builds and it in fact gave a percent to dodge all single target abilities. Why on earth would you remove jab, one of the best spammables of that time and still is now, to slot a pug stomping skill that could still be 100% avoided by RNG? And even if you slotted dizzy after shuffle gave the current evasion, why would you give up a spammable that also procs burning light? Can you tell me your reasoning for that?
And the build of the warden you mentioned I have used and fought against. It was broken, but I’m sure he had other reasons for quitting. Regardless, I’m sure you would have no trouble killing him after the nerf if he was carried by those sets.
[edited for baiting & to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on September 4, 2021 10:21AM0 -
Ippokrates✭✭✭✭✭Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »Yay, lets reduce cast time so those who are maining stamsorc can finally push their ultimate combo... XD
Actually no they wouldn't be able to. Dizzy having a cast time actually allows stamsorcs to line up 3 abilities in 1 GCD ( pre cast Cwep > Dizzying Swing > Ultimate or Executioner. Removing the cast time means you can only do Cwep > Dizzying Swing. At best, you can do Cwep > Bound Arms > Dizzying Swing. In a way it's a nerf for sorc burst, but a buff for sustained dmg.
Yeah, but Crystal weapon & psijic weapon (and Overload) are going with LA, so you can land all 3 at once for opening, instead of having an 0.8 sec gap.
You aren't going to use overload with a melee build. It's not reliable in melee range. Try it and see for yourself.
Did it, it was fun.
When you're fighting high level players fun isn't equal to effective.
So I have tested few combinations:
- Crystal + Psijic + LA + Brawler
- Crystal + Psijic + LA + Execute
- Crystal + Psijic + LA
Not only my LA component has been doubled by Overload but also I had a range flexibility, especially nice thing to see in option nr 3.
How was that proverb about bad dancer blame? ^^
Here's one very very simple thing I can do to make your entire combo a waste:
Wait for it...
Wait for it...
Roll dodge. Boom 6k stam wasted for nothing.
Which could be done with every direct st skill ^^
But luckily ESO is no Witcher 3, you cannot roll in eternity.
Right, but with the specific combo you mentioned, you're stacking 3 single target skill into 1 GCD. It's entirely different than say, i use Surprise Attack 3 times. Both situations still cost 3 GCDs, but since you're stacking 3 abilities into 1 GCD, a roll dodge avoids all 3 attacks, whereas if i wanted to avoid all 3 Surprise Attacks, i'd have to roll dodge 3 times. Does that make sense?
Yeah, but the topic is about Dizzy Swing, so if there is interval between LA & Skill (similar to snipe) defender has much more chances to roll than with instant. And that's why dizzy is good as it is.
Plus as you mentioned in previous discussions, pvp is not pve when you can spamming to get burst. So if a good pvp build has around 3k recovery, it can easily cast crystal and spam psijic in opportunity to take a strike. Cause pvp should be game of wits, right? No one force you to make a swing at earliest opportunity, what could be so predictable...
I was specifically talking about the Crystal + psijic + overload combo you brought up. That’s 2 GCD used already. Supposed ZOS removed Dizzy cast time, then you’d add a Dizzy after that combo. 3 GCD + an overload, all stacked into that specific Dizzy GCD. If I roll dodge, I avoid the entire Overload + Crystal + Psijic combo as well as the Dizzy cast. That’s what I meant.
The purpose of removing the cast time for Dizzy is to turn it into a true spammable. The damage will be less than its current tooltip, but it’s easier to land and can be used reliably as a spammable.
And what is the point of that? ATM Dizzy Swing & Wrecking Blow have one of the best coef in the game, 1.25. If you reduce that, skill will not only be a similar to typical class spammable but also it will lose it rpg aspect.
Moreover, if you only reduced dmg & keep bonuses like off-balance of DS, it would mean that now, every stam build could be turned into NB. Or even worse, cause NB must attack from a flank, while DS not. Where is sense in that?
So the idea is bad. Things like DS or Snipe should be powerful but with cast time to provide enough diversity of skills, so we would not go back to ping-pong (which could be admired by pvpers but utterly boring for all others).
I can tell you two reasons why current dizzying swing is bad.
1/ Compared to its old version with 1.0s cast time and super high tooltip, current dizzy still has a cast time, but deals 1k less burst dmg. In a high MMR BG, you are not going to have a chance to land more than 2 dizzies, and I say this as a FACT. Go watch a high MMR full premade BG game and see how many ppl use Dizzy. Literally almost all of them have become either speedy one shot players, or sustained CC pressure. When you are getting rooted, stunned, and eating 20k+ dmg PER PERSON, you aren’t going to have the luxury to wait for your dizzy to cast. But let’s say you are a masochist and you still wanna use dizzy, fine. You’re gonna land a hit or two if you have good positioning, but the damage isn’t there. It’s nerfed compared to its previous version. With the previous version, you’d still only be able to land one or two hits, but you had higher damage and could likely secure a kill.
2/ Compared to other instant spammables, you are disadvantaged. Sure you do more dmg than their spammables, but you have a cast time, and that is your biggest drawback. Any good player can see it from a mile away and block/roll dodge before you can even land your combo. You know what’s worse? THEY CAN HIT YOU WHILE DOING THOSE THINGS. Fight a rollerblade with dizzy and see what I mean. They can cancel surprise attack with a roll to avoid your dizzy, while still dishing out pressure. Fight a magdk who block casts their molten whip. Good luck trying to land a single full dmg dizzy on them.
And that is exactly fine. You have poweful attack that can grant you empower or put your enemy off-balance, but it can be seen and avoided by experienced fighters. That's how it should be.
If it not work for you, look for other options ESO is offering. Like above mentioned DW. And approach every combat with individual solution, not rely on dizzy spamming ^^
But it isn’t fine. The meta is defined by experienced players using abilities and sets that perform best in high level PvP. Right now the meta doesn’t include dizzying swing in it. Pugs will die to dizzying swing or surprise attack or whatever ability a good player use. It doesn’t matter. But when 2 good players fight, dizzying swing is hot dumpster. I’m not making this thread so ppl can come in and tell others to “play another build”. That is already a no brainer. I’m trying to raise awareness about this issue and also ask for a buff.
META is a social construct xd
And it is far worse in pve, where you can be rejected by not following META. In PvP you can simply try, get beating and try something else. Nobody is forcing you to try anything. And surely there is no need to get any niche set or skill to be competitive in every aspect of the game.
Dizzy is accessible for any player from start.
Dizzy gives fine damage.
Dizzy gives chance for even more dmg with M/HA vs OB.
Dizzy gives chance for CC.
It is great for beginners & medium players.
Sure, it will not work vs bunny hoppers but we cannot redesign whole game because of them (btw. I will always stand on position that getting hit during jump should grant automatically off-balance).
However, i really like above mentioned by @gariondavey option of removing targeting. That could really improve the game.
Edited by Ippokrates on September 3, 2021 9:55PM1 -
Redguards_Revenge✭✭✭✭Redguards_Revenge wrote: »Redguards_Revenge wrote: »Dizzy Swing is fine where it's at.
I remember some years ago I removed jabs off my bar and used dizzy swing. There were 2 reasons for this
1. Dizzy Swing is a Single Target Direct Damage move. Meaning it's damage wasn't nerfed by major and minor evasion.
2. When the first Dizzy Swing lands, the second hit is always free after the knockback. This forced them to go for trying to blast their heals. Then they would get knocked back again and then hit with a second free hit, then force them to heal. Repeated this and their resources would run out and they would die from Dizzy spam.
3. The damage dealt onto a player was higher than jabs.
It was fun that's why I came on to the forums and wrote satire about how jabs was useless compared to the dizzy swing. In pvp I went from average to a god. I even had the video proof.
It pretty much became an I Win button. So ZoS finally changed it to what it is right now. It is fair, reliable and useful.
I use it all the time on DK (Which is far better than Templar in everything in my opinion)
I put the DoTs on, I weave dizzy and heavy attacks while my DoTs stay on.
I should say I am comparing a stam Templar to stam DK.
NB takes the cake from both of them. I don't even cloak on NB. I use the healing option.
Every suggestion you make is to try and fix your own build. It's not to balance the game.
I'm sorry but if you actually fought anybody good you wouldn't think dizzy was good. Killing random pugs doesn't matter.
I fight against the best. When I see somebody wipe a whole group alone I run to them and try to get a 1 V 1 knowing I won't win. I continually run to them and fight them. When they beat me, I ask them about their build and they are usually kind to break it down for me. (If they are not, then they aren't confident in their skills) I realize my advantages and disadvantages and can tell if I can beat them or not. The more I fight them the more I see the openings I need to exploit to get them down.
There was only one build I knew I could never beat.
I was in BGs and one of my team mates were destroying everyone. All 8 of them. They could not kill them. So I whispered to them that I wanted pvp them.
They were a warden with vatesheran destro staff and possibly vatesheran 2h. They didn't tell me the rest of the build.
They were able to build to be tanky and also deal a lot of damage.
I concluded that the build was impossible to beat. (Well if 8 people couldn't drop them how could one?) I thanked them and told them that I would be taking a six month break from the game. They told me that they were allegedly using the build to show zos that it was OP.
I told them, if this is the direction the game will go, I can't be a part of it. I think it's a well known pattern that ZoS uses.
When they changed the sets, I wanted to fight them. I created a build that was powerful and might have been able to stand up to it. I wouldn't be able to kill them, but simply living would be enough. Then I could start tweaking the build removing the defenses.
The person was nowhere to be found. They quit the game. I am not sure if it's because ZoS removed their power fantasy or they realized using such a build that didn't require effort wasn't really fun after a while.
One thing was certain, nothing is constant in ESO, everything is subject to change.
For the record, I was one of the people who made sure sithis didn't go live from what was previously on the PTS because I knew some builds did not block at all. To have all that health and defenses on one hat was crazy. That would have led me on a 1 year hiatus.
[snip]
Actually you don’t know how experienced I am. We never fought or played together. But you are free to test me if you play on PC NA. Personally, I have fought players from different servers. PC EU, XBOX NA, PS4 NA, etc. I think I’m more than experienced enough to talk about this matter.
I’m glad to know you aren’t inexperienced as you claimed. [snip] Fight a good player who knows what he’s doing = can see the drawbacks of dizzy relatively quick. You mentioned dropping jabs to slot dizzy. That was back when Shuffle was usable on heavy builds and it in fact gave a percent to dodge all single target abilities. Why on earth would you remove jab, one of the best spammables of that time and still is now, to slot a pug stomping skill that could still be 100% avoided by RNG? And even if you slotted dizzy after shuffle gave the current evasion, why would you give up a spammable that also procs burning light? Can you tell me your reasoning for that?
And the build of the warden you mentioned I have used and fought against. It was broken, but I’m sure he had other reasons for quitting. Regardless, I’m sure you would have no trouble killing him after the nerf if he was carried by those sets.
[snip] Like I said before you only make suggestions that fix the problem of your own build rather than caring about balance.
[snip]
EDIT:
Why I would use Dizzy Swing over Jabs? I decided to change and try other things. This was after the shuffle change binding it to medium armor. I found out I was able to kill more efficiently with Knock Back Dizzy Swing than with jabs. The only reason why I don't use Dizzy Swing on templar is because I need the crit that the jabs give. However with the change to medium armor I am thinking about going back to dizzy swing as 20% crit is no different than 10% crit.
END EDIT.
[edited for baiting & to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on September 4, 2021 10:28AM6 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭
[/quote]Redguards_Revenge wrote: »[snip] Like I said before you only make suggestions that fix the problem of your own build rather than caring about balance.
[snip]
First of all, I never claimed I am the best though, that statement was made up by you. You can look through all my comments and if you find one single comment of me claiming I'm the best I will ask ZOS to delete my forums account.
Second of all, I make suggestions to fix class balance issues. I surround myself with some of the best PvPers on PC NA, and a simple discord discussion can support me. Just because I am active on the forums where many good players don't speak up or was banned, doesn't mean I don't care about balance. It's not my fault you can't see what i see.Redguards_Revenge wrote: »[snip]
First of all, age and "economic status" are irrelevant to this topic. You don't know anything about me irl. I keep all my discussions game related. [snip]
Second of all, nobody exposed anything. I don't run a high crit build, I don't blindly spam heals, and I did in fact mitigate damage through multiple means. I posted 2 videos with a real fight to demonstrate my point. I also have a youtube channel with multiple videos about 1vX, small scaling, and build videos. People are free to check them out if they think it's worth their time, but I don't need to prove myself on the forums to randoms who I'll never meet in game.Redguards_Revenge wrote: »[snip]
[snip] So far you have zero evidence of your gameplay other than word of mouth. But it's fine, you do you.Redguards_Revenge wrote: »Why I would use Dizzy Swing over Jabs? I decided to change and try other things. This was after the shuffle change binding it to medium armor. I found out I was able to kill more efficiently with Knock Back Dizzy Swing than with jabs. The only reason why I don't use Dizzy Swing on templar is because I need the crit that the jabs give. However with the change to medium armor I am thinking about going back to dizzy swing as 20% crit is no different than 10% crit.
Okay and that's fine if you switch up other things. But objectively you are limiting your kill potential by not having jab which can proc Burning Light. Even if someone uses major evasion and you only deal 1k jab ticks, you are still going to hit for 2k+ Burning Light which is not mitigatable by evasion. You will still end up dealing the same amount of undodgable damage as dizzying swing after it's been mitigated by evasion. And when you do run into people without evasion, you will simply melt them.
Just because you switch things up doesn't mean it's optimal. I am purely speaking from a min max perspective. You don't think dizzying swing needs a buff, but when you use it against equally experienced players with better spammables, the difference is night and day.
And I am still waiting for any form of evidence to back up claims.
[edited for baiting & to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on September 4, 2021 10:34AM0 -
Yasha✭✭✭✭✭How about give dual weild a massive heal ability, a snare removal, make rapid strikes useful, and give it an ultimate that can one shot people and refund all your ulti again.3
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AuraStorm43✭✭✭✭✭For the past 2 years, Dizzying Swing remained relatively balanced and a top choice for stamina classes that don't have a good class spammable like DK, warden, necro, and sorc. It has the highest tooltip for a single target spammable, but this is balanced by its 0.8s cast time, which makes countering the ability relatively easy for an experienced player. Due to the cast time and ease of counter, it was never meant to be a true spammable, but rather a quick in-and-out burst ability for high damage builds. However, the recent meta shift to 1-shot burst damage has made Dizzying Swing much less competitive in that aspect. In BGs, high MMR stamina players mostly build into maximum mobility and use full damage 1-shot builds with DW as their front-bar weapon. This meta change combined with Dizzying Swing's predictability made it a very poor option for damage as players can simply run out of its range or block/dodge the damage with relative ease. In Cyrodiil, Dizzying Swing still remains a pug stomper, but very ineffective against good players.
I'd like to suggest two solutions to make Dizzying Swing competitive again for high level PvP:
1) Revert the ability to its old version with a 1.0s cast time and a very high tooltip. The current version does not offer the high risk, high reward feeling that you normally got. To make matter worse, it's also being outclassed by Surprise Attack, an overloaded single target spammable that's arguably the best in its category. By reverting back to the previous version, Dizzying Swing can fulfill its roll as a high risk, high reward burst "spammable". It will be easier to avoid, but the high damage compensates for that.
2) Remove the cast time and reduce the tooltip to be inline with other instant cast spammables. This essentially turns the ability into a true spammable, which can help it compete with the current fast paced one shot meta as the damage is now instant, making it harder to be avoided.
Stopped reading at “Dizzying Swing remained relatively balanced” its always hit far too hard for what it does
Honestly think its needed a nerf for awhile now
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MadeInVN✭✭✭✭AuraStorm43 wrote: »For the past 2 years, Dizzying Swing remained relatively balanced and a top choice for stamina classes that don't have a good class spammable like DK, warden, necro, and sorc. It has the highest tooltip for a single target spammable, but this is balanced by its 0.8s cast time, which makes countering the ability relatively easy for an experienced player. Due to the cast time and ease of counter, it was never meant to be a true spammable, but rather a quick in-and-out burst ability for high damage builds. However, the recent meta shift to 1-shot burst damage has made Dizzying Swing much less competitive in that aspect. In BGs, high MMR stamina players mostly build into maximum mobility and use full damage 1-shot builds with DW as their front-bar weapon. This meta change combined with Dizzying Swing's predictability made it a very poor option for damage as players can simply run out of its range or block/dodge the damage with relative ease. In Cyrodiil, Dizzying Swing still remains a pug stomper, but very ineffective against good players.
I'd like to suggest two solutions to make Dizzying Swing competitive again for high level PvP:
1) Revert the ability to its old version with a 1.0s cast time and a very high tooltip. The current version does not offer the high risk, high reward feeling that you normally got. To make matter worse, it's also being outclassed by Surprise Attack, an overloaded single target spammable that's arguably the best in its category. By reverting back to the previous version, Dizzying Swing can fulfill its roll as a high risk, high reward burst "spammable". It will be easier to avoid, but the high damage compensates for that.
2) Remove the cast time and reduce the tooltip to be inline with other instant cast spammables. This essentially turns the ability into a true spammable, which can help it compete with the current fast paced one shot meta as the damage is now instant, making it harder to be avoided.
Stopped reading at “Dizzying Swing remained relatively balanced” its always hit far too hard for what it does
Honestly think its needed a nerf for awhile now
It's a 0.8s cast time ability. It needs to hit hard.0 -
Zekka✭✭✭✭I think Dizzy Swing should stay the way it is, maybe lose the snare, and Wrecking Blow should be reworked into an instant cast ability. It's something that has been asked by many people for years so I doubt it will ever happen.
ZOS keep trying to make Carve this instant cast option and while it's useable now (with a Master 2h) it still falls short against better skills like Surprise Attack and Rending Slashes especially in 1v1s.How about give dual weild a massive heal ability, a snare removal, make rapid strikes useful, and give it an ultimate that can one shot people and refund all your ulti again.
A conditional heal and a snare removal that comes with the price of giving up said massive heal, and Onslaught lost its ult
refund on kill years ago.
Meanwhile Rending Slashes with Master dual wield is the best stam spammable after Surprise Attack and Whirling Blades the best stam execute due to its undodgeable status.
All in all, I don't think buffing stam in general is a priority.0 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭I think Dizzy Swing should stay the way it is, maybe lose the snare, and Wrecking Blow should be reworked into an instant cast ability. It's something that has been asked by many people for years so I doubt it will ever happen.
ZOS keep trying to make Carve this instant cast option and while it's useable now (with a Master 2h) it still falls short against better skills like Surprise Attack and Rending Slashes especially in 1v1s.How about give dual weild a massive heal ability, a snare removal, make rapid strikes useful, and give it an ultimate that can one shot people and refund all your ulti again.
A conditional heal and a snare removal that comes with the price of giving up said massive heal, and Onslaught lost its ult
refund on kill years ago.
Meanwhile Rending Slashes with Master dual wield is the best stam spammable after Surprise Attack and Whirling Blades the best stam execute due to its undodgeable status.
All in all, I don't think buffing stam in general is a priority.
I don't really care about the snare. Nobody asked for the snare. ZOS only gave it a snare because for some reason casuals couldn't land it. Nobody asked for the 2nd Dizzy to be a stun either, as you could instantly stun if you know how to medium weave with off balance. But ZOS again gave the 2nd cast a stun to cater to casuals.
Like, the entire reason why people use dizzy is due to ZOS nerfing DW and SnB. If those weapon lines werent nerfed a lot less would Dizzy. Go back and watch youtube vids several years ago with old Steel Tornado, Reverb Bash, Herolic Slash, Ransack, etc. The only reason you would even slot Dizzy back then was for stomping pugs and that's it.
Sure you can make an argument that stam doesn't need buffs, but what exactly are you going to do to buff mag? As far as I'm concerned mag's biggest weakness is mobility. That can be fixed with more options for mobility. But a lot of people already run swift with RAT on mag and they are just as fast as stam. You only lose 15% sprint speed and 10% movement speed if CC immune. But you are still well above 170% movement speed on mag. What about damage? Sure you can make an argument that mag damage is not as good as stam, but when you look deeper you'll see that the reason mag dmg doesnt look as good as stam is due to the fact that it's easier to dodge projectiles from range. So give mag better melee abilities, because I don't see magplar and magdk (both of which play melee) losing to any stam soon except for maybe a very very good stamcro/full dot stamdk. Like if you've ever used arterial burst you'll see that it's a very good spammable. Just look at these conditions and tell me if it's not:
Arterial Burst:
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Enemy
Cost: 2295 Magicka
Skill description
Rend an enemy, dealing 2399 Magic Damage. Deals up to 33% more damage based on your missing Health. If you use this ability while you are under 50% Health, it will always be a Critical Strike.
Has an excecute scaling as your HP gets lower, and always crits under 50% HP. I have fought several players using this spammable and they purposely don't heal to bait me into trying to kill them, but they do in fact have the healing power/defense to survive sub 50% HP, and they counter attack you with a fat 10k arterial burst crit on top of all their burst that they lined up before. It's such a good spammable and may only need a little extra tweaking to make it safer for most classes.
What do you propose magicka needs buffing then?0 -
gameswithaspoon✭✭✭
[/quote]
But it isn’t fine. The meta is defined by experienced players using abilities and sets that perform best in high level PvP. Right now the meta doesn’t include dizzying swing in it. Pugs will die to dizzying swing or surprise attack or whatever ability a good player use. It doesn’t matter. But when 2 good players fight, dizzying swing is hot dumpster. I’m not making this thread so ppl can come in and tell others to “play another build”. That is already a no brainer. I’m trying to raise awareness about this issue and also ask for a buff. [/quote]
Let’s all have a moment of honesty. The meta shifted to ball groups when the destro ultimate was invented. Like the idea that PVP in Cyrodiil can or should be balanced around Dizzy is outdated by 4 or 5 years.
Dizzy should be balanced around pug killing and BGs because no single target skill should wipe a top tier guild in voice coms.
No matter how frustrating destroballs are.Spoon-no-Soup Former Emperor Argonian Templar AD BWBSpoon-ware-Soup Former Emperor Argonian Stamplar AD BahlokdaanGuild Leader Imperium of the Eagle Ravenwatch NA-PCTakes Drive-Thru Orders for This is a Wendy's.0 -
Yasha✭✭✭✭✭I think Dizzy Swing should stay the way it is, maybe lose the snare, and Wrecking Blow should be reworked into an instant cast ability. It's something that has been asked by many people for years so I doubt it will ever happen.
ZOS keep trying to make Carve this instant cast option and while it's useable now (with a Master 2h) it still falls short against better skills like Surprise Attack and Rending Slashes especially in 1v1s.How about give dual weild a massive heal ability, a snare removal, make rapid strikes useful, and give it an ultimate that can one shot people and refund all your ulti again.
A conditional heal and a snare removal that comes with the price of giving up said massive heal, and Onslaught lost its ult
refund on kill years ago.
Meanwhile Rending Slashes with Master dual wield is the best stam spammable after Surprise Attack and Whirling Blades the best stam execute due to its undodgeable status.
All in all, I don't think buffing stam in general is a priority.
I don't really care about the snare. Nobody asked for the snare. ZOS only gave it a snare because for some reason casuals couldn't land it. Nobody asked for the 2nd Dizzy to be a stun either, as you could instantly stun if you know how to medium weave with off balance. But ZOS again gave the 2nd cast a stun to cater to casuals.
Like, the entire reason why people use dizzy is due to ZOS nerfing DW and SnB. If those weapon lines werent nerfed a lot less would Dizzy. Go back and watch youtube vids several years ago with old Steel Tornado, Reverb Bash, Herolic Slash, Ransack, etc. The only reason you would even slot Dizzy back then was for stomping pugs and that's it.
Sure you can make an argument that stam doesn't need buffs, but what exactly are you going to do to buff mag? As far as I'm concerned mag's biggest weakness is mobility. That can be fixed with more options for mobility. But a lot of people already run swift with RAT on mag and they are just as fast as stam. You only lose 15% sprint speed and 10% movement speed if CC immune. But you are still well above 170% movement speed on mag. What about damage? Sure you can make an argument that mag damage is not as good as stam, but when you look deeper you'll see that the reason mag dmg doesnt look as good as stam is due to the fact that it's easier to dodge projectiles from range. So give mag better melee abilities, because I don't see magplar and magdk (both of which play melee) losing to any stam soon except for maybe a very very good stamcro/full dot stamdk. Like if you've ever used arterial burst you'll see that it's a very good spammable. Just look at these conditions and tell me if it's not:
Arterial Burst:
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Enemy
Cost: 2295 Magicka
Skill description
Rend an enemy, dealing 2399 Magic Damage. Deals up to 33% more damage based on your missing Health. If you use this ability while you are under 50% Health, it will always be a Critical Strike.
Has an excecute scaling as your HP gets lower, and always crits under 50% HP. I have fought several players using this spammable and they purposely don't heal to bait me into trying to kill them, but they do in fact have the healing power/defense to survive sub 50% HP, and they counter attack you with a fat 10k arterial burst crit on top of all their burst that they lined up before. It's such a good spammable and may only need a little extra tweaking to make it safer for most classes.
What do you propose magicka needs buffing then?
Mag doesn't need buffing, but nor does dizzy. Dual weild is in a far worse spot except maybe for the tiny fraction of the player base you are talking about. And as u also identified in your OP there are classes which have no spammable or a really bad one, and wb/dizzy is in a far better place than those - for example the dk stone giant skill which is complete trash and pretty much no one uses.
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Redguards_Revenge✭✭✭✭I am so glad you were able to read all my posts in their entirety. In a true pvp competition, only one thing matters. It's not the sets, the class, the weapon. It's Behavior. You expect me as a templar to use an inferior skill like jabs. If it were great you would be playing Templar.
So when you say all that I say doesn't matter, in pvp it does. I fight people over and over again not to try and beat them. It is to learn their behavior. Once their behavior is known, it doesn't matter what set they put on after that. (Unless it's extremely broken)
Using Dizzy to put on Off-Balance and heavy attacking to get resources back. Deciding when to stun then in that 8 seconds instead of using something dumb like the ever blockable toppling charge. Building for a heavy attack build and putting my stam recov to 800 while my weapon damage high (6-7k constant) for 24/7 (That might be low to many but it's good enough for me) in BGs. I use silver leash to pull them towards me. (get some weapon damage for having slotted)
Will always make Dizzy Swing better than Jabs. I forgot to tell you I have another build where I can pop Ultis every 10-12 seconds. Barrier every 20 second.
You'll be surprised to know I even took off extended ritual. Why purge when you will die in a couple of seconds? I placed blazing shield in it's stead.
Jabs works well in PVE.
The Silver Bolt thing backfired at first. I pulled them towards me and they lit me up. So I put my health up to 40k. Then I stack shields and wait for my ullt to go up every 10-15 sec. The downfall is when they don't get close enough for me to get my resources back from heavy. I am thinking about switching 1h-1sh to bow, but at the same time, popping shield ult every 10-15 seconds....
I am thinking about just being unkillable by adding blessed into the mix. I should be able to overcome hrothgar with my 40k health in BGs.Edited by Redguards_Revenge on September 4, 2021 11:13AM0 -
Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yeah it was a bit of a buggy ass skill though. Those desynchs into execute...I'm happy I don't see it as much honesty
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This discussion has been closed.