Dizzying Swing needs a rework to be a competitive option for PvP

MadeInVN

For the past 2 years, Dizzying Swing remained relatively balanced and a top choice for stamina classes that don't have a good class spammable like DK, warden, necro, and sorc. It has the highest tooltip for a single target spammable, but this is balanced by its 0.8s cast time, which makes countering the ability relatively easy for an experienced player. Due to the cast time and ease of counter, it was never meant to be a true spammable, but rather a quick in-and-out burst ability for high damage builds. However, the recent meta shift to 1-shot burst damage has made Dizzying Swing much less competitive in that aspect. In BGs, high MMR stamina players mostly build into maximum mobility and use full damage 1-shot builds with DW as their front-bar weapon. This meta change combined with Dizzying Swing's predictability made it a very poor option for damage as players can simply run out of its range or block/dodge the damage with relative ease. In Cyrodiil, Dizzying Swing still remains a pug stomper, but very ineffective against good players.

I'd like to suggest two solutions to make Dizzying Swing competitive again for high level PvP:

1) Revert the ability to its old version with a 1.0s cast time and a very high tooltip. The current version does not offer the high risk, high reward feeling that you normally got. To make matter worse, it's also being outclassed by Surprise Attack, an overloaded single target spammable that's arguably the best in its category. By reverting back to the previous version, Dizzying Swing can fulfill its roll as a high risk, high reward burst "spammable". It will be easier to avoid, but the high damage compensates for that.

2) Remove the cast time and reduce the tooltip to be inline with other instant cast spammables. This essentially turns the ability into a true spammable, which can help it compete with the current fast paced one shot meta as the damage is now instant, making it harder to be avoided.

Urzigurumash

Part of the problem with the old cast time was how you frequently lost your target and had to re-cast. For some players they seemed to have a lot of trouble landing it at all back then and I think this is why so many ran 2h strictly for Rally for so long. Part of its reward of course was also the instant stun and knockback.

I very much enjoyed using it as more of a combo-component than a spammable circa 2016-2019, but I also enjoyed spamming Wrecking Blow before 2016 or so, with the old Empower. Back then we didn't have Noxious Breath or Venomous Claw for StamDK so spamming Wrecking Blow was pretty much the thing to do.

I would be all for restoring some of its previous power and increasing the cast time, but I'm not exactly sure which single target spammable besides Surprise Attack is outperforming it? I think Surprise Attack maybe should be the best single target Stam spammable, since StamNB is sort of the purely single target Stam class.

MadeInVN

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Part of the problem with the old cast time was how you frequently lost your target and had to re-cast. For some players they seemed to have a lot of trouble landing it at all back then and I think this is why so many ran 2h strictly for Rally for so long. Part of its reward of course was also the instant stun and knockback.

I very much enjoyed using it as more of a combo-component than a spammable circa 2016-2019, but I also enjoyed spamming Wrecking Blow before 2016 or so, with the old Empower. Back then we didn't have Noxious Breath or Venomous Claw for StamDK so spamming Wrecking Blow was pretty much the thing to do.

I would be all for restoring some of its previous power and increasing the cast time, but I'm not exactly sure which single target spammable besides Surprise Attack is outperforming it? I think Surprise Attack maybe should be the best single target Stam spammable, since StamNB is sort of the purely single target Stam class.

I think the only other single target spammable that can outperform it is Rending Slashes with master DW.

Urzigurumash

MadeInVN wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Part of the problem with the old cast time was how you frequently lost your target and had to re-cast. For some players they seemed to have a lot of trouble landing it at all back then and I think this is why so many ran 2h strictly for Rally for so long. Part of its reward of course was also the instant stun and knockback.

I very much enjoyed using it as more of a combo-component than a spammable circa 2016-2019, but I also enjoyed spamming Wrecking Blow before 2016 or so, with the old Empower. Back then we didn't have Noxious Breath or Venomous Claw for StamDK so spamming Wrecking Blow was pretty much the thing to do.

I would be all for restoring some of its previous power and increasing the cast time, but I'm not exactly sure which single target spammable besides Surprise Attack is outperforming it? I think Surprise Attack maybe should be the best single target Stam spammable, since StamNB is sort of the purely single target Stam class.

I think the only other single target spammable that can outperform it is Rending Slashes with master DW.

I've never really been fond of using that as a spammable, I'd rather let the DoT run out, but anyhow I generally agree with your post. Perhaps, make Wrecking Blow instant cast, lower tooltip than D Swing, with Empower, no Stun. For D Swing increase the damage, increase the cast time, give it back the instant stun. Of course I want the Knockback again too but I can see how that was a bit OP.

That being said I think the reduction of the cast time was one of the best buffs StamDK ever got, but mostly because it was no longer frequent that targets moved out of range before the cast time ended. I'm not sure there's any way to solve that issue while restoring D Swing to its old state of "combo-component" rather than spammable, but, I did enjoy that playstyle, even it more frequently whiffed. It would probably be even stronger with Vat 2h than it is now, given how well it used to work for me with older Heavy Attack sets.

spartaxoxo

Dizzying Swing shouldn't be both a pub stomper and a high end skill in the first place IMO. It's everywhere and shouldn't be buffed.

MadeInVN

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Dizzying Swing shouldn't be both a pub stomper and a high end skill in the first place IMO. It's everywhere and shouldn't be buffed.

It was never a high end skill though. Back when it had the high tooltip and 1s cast time it was a pure pug stomper. Most players ran DW with steel tornado or SnB front bar instead of dizzying swing.

Now it's not top tier and not as good of a pug stomper as it used to be. Making it instant cast would remove it from being a pug stomper, but make it better for high level PvP. In contrast, reverting it to the previous version would make it a better pug stomper, but much easier to dodge.

spartaxoxo

MadeInVN wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Dizzying Swing shouldn't be both a pub stomper and a high end skill in the first place IMO. It's everywhere and shouldn't be buffed.

It was never a high end skill though. Back when it had the high tooltip and 1s cast time it was a pure pug stomper. Most players ran DW with steel tornado or SnB front bar instead of dizzying swing.

Now it's not top tier and not as good of a pug stomper as it used to be. Making it instant cast would remove it from being a pug stomper, but make it better for high level PvP. In contrast, reverting it to the previous version would make it a better pug stomper, but much easier to dodge.

I see almost every Stam toon in Cyrodiil from the Grand Overlords to baby Stams using 2H. It's everywhere. I don't see a lot of DW and anytime I go and take a watch of the duels, it's usually the 2H that wins.

2H from my vantage point seems extremely dominant and so it having it's spammable being worse than the DW is not at all inappropriate to me even if I were to accept that as true.

And it's never not been good at pub stomping.

MadeInVN

spartaxoxo wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Dizzying Swing shouldn't be both a pub stomper and a high end skill in the first place IMO. It's everywhere and shouldn't be buffed.

It was never a high end skill though. Back when it had the high tooltip and 1s cast time it was a pure pug stomper. Most players ran DW with steel tornado or SnB front bar instead of dizzying swing.

Now it's not top tier and not as good of a pug stomper as it used to be. Making it instant cast would remove it from being a pug stomper, but make it better for high level PvP. In contrast, reverting it to the previous version would make it a better pug stomper, but much easier to dodge.

I see almost every Stam toon in Cyrodiil from the Grand Overlords to baby Stams using 2H. It's everywhere. I don't see a lot of DW and anytime I go and take a watch of the duels, it's usually the 2H that wins.

2H from my vantage point seems extremely dominant and so it having it's spammable being worse than the DW is not at all inappropriate to me even if I were to accept that as true.

And it's never not been good at pub stomping.

You see a lot of them because ZOS nerfed DW and SnB. Idk if you PvPed before they nerfed DW and SnB, but back then the only ppl who ran Dizzy were stamdens or 1vXers killing pugs. DW and SnB were so much better as front bar weapons for all content.

With the new procs DW builds are doing better than 2h. The whole 1 shot setup is superior to dizzy spam in group play and 1vX. If you can AoE cleave an entire group, you don't need to spam dizzies. 2H is only good now because of Rally. If DW got an ability like Rally, nobody would use 2h anymore.

Urzigurumash

MadeInVN wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Dizzying Swing shouldn't be both a pub stomper and a high end skill in the first place IMO. It's everywhere and shouldn't be buffed.

It was never a high end skill though. Back when it had the high tooltip and 1s cast time it was a pure pug stomper. Most players ran DW with steel tornado or SnB front bar instead of dizzying swing.

Now it's not top tier and not as good of a pug stomper as it used to be. Making it instant cast would remove it from being a pug stomper, but make it better for high level PvP. In contrast, reverting it to the previous version would make it a better pug stomper, but much easier to dodge.

If it were instant it would have to lose quite a bit of its tooltip if it became block-castable. Then all of the risk is gone and it's not really fitting to the theme of the skill. I don't really see that Whirlwind could or should be replaced for the "highest level" of PvP, if you mean optimized 12 person. For single-target melee direct-damage on sDK it's always been the strongest skill, Heroic Slash was just easier to weave. Speaking of DK only, and this is where some want StamWhip particularly - to replace Heroic Slash, more than D Swing.

Solariken

I really miss the 1 sec cast time and ragdoll knockback... That was super fun to use :'(

AdamLAD

Why on earth would you buff a skill that does on average 6k to 7k in PvP. Sets off balance, stuns and snares. It needs a nerf if anything. Why does a spammable do ALL THAT. Stamina across the board gets more bang for its buck compared to magicka abilities and people say they want more buffs to stamina abilities ? Does anyone actually understand the game ?

MadeInVN

AdamLAD wrote: »

Why on earth would you buff a skill that does on average 6k to 7k in PvP. Sets off balance, stuns and snares. It needs a nerf if anything. Why does a spammable do ALL THAT. Stamina across the board gets more bang for its buck compared to magicka abilities and people say they want more buffs to stamina abilities ? Does anyone actually understand the game ?

Do you realize that for Dizzying Swing to deal 6-7k average, you'd have to have 7k+ weapon dmg, 30k stam in malacath and fully pen someone? That is a full damage build and with those stats it should be doing those numbers.

What if I told you I can deal 12k surprise attacks with the same stats? Or 6k crushing shock with also the same stats?

Dizzying swing is not a good spammable right now for high level gameplay. You can go ask any good player and they'll tell you the same.

YandereGirlfriend

Neither of the two metas were appealing - current zoom zoom one-shots or the old one where it was like watching some chaotic golf match because all 12 BG players were DSwing'ing away.

I'd prefer to simply see the skill lose its cast time (and heightened tooltip - and likely its CC) and be brought more in-line with regular spammables.

It would also help to un-nerf Dual-Wield and Sword and Board (though the latter is somewhat dicey and would have to be less powerful than the purely offensive options) to allow them to better compete with 2H though that is a project that spans a scope larger than DSwing.

Arcanasx

I've always thought that the wrecking blow and rapid strikes (or bloodthirst) morphs could have been instant cast skills for lower damage; never understood the obsession of keeping the main spammable damage skills for the offensive melee weapon lines channeled only after the heroic slash nerf.

Ippokrates

Yay, lets reduce cast time so those who are maining stamsorc can finally push their ultimate combo... XD

ResidentContrarian

"The recent meta to 1-shot..."

Uh no, that's just what you and others believe the META is. That doesn't make it so. The skill needs no changes, otherwise it can get them with a damage decrease.

Edit: And with frenzied momentum and other skills, lol no.

Redguards_Revenge

Dizzy Swing is fine where it's at.

I remember some years ago I removed jabs off my bar and used dizzy swing. There were 2 reasons for this

1. Dizzy Swing is a Single Target Direct Damage move. Meaning it's damage wasn't nerfed by major and minor evasion.

2. When the first Dizzy Swing lands, the second hit is always free after the knockback. This forced them to go for trying to blast their heals. Then they would get knocked back again and then hit with a second free hit, then force them to heal. Repeated this and their resources would run out and they would die from Dizzy spam.

3. The damage dealt onto a player was higher than jabs.

It was fun that's why I came on to the forums and wrote satire about how jabs was useless compared to the dizzy swing. In pvp I went from average to a god. I even had the video proof.

It pretty much became an I Win button. So ZoS finally changed it to what it is right now. It is fair, reliable and useful.

I use it all the time on DK (Which is far better than Templar in everything in my opinion)

I put the DoTs on, I weave dizzy and heavy attacks while my DoTs stay on.

I should say I am comparing a stam Templar to stam DK.

NB takes the cake from both of them. I don't even cloak on NB. I use the healing option.

Every suggestion you make is to try and fix your own build. It's not to balance the game.

Greek_Hellspawn

MadeInVN wrote: »

For the past 2 years, Dizzying Swing remained relatively balanced and a top choice for stamina classes that don't have a good class spammable like DK, warden, necro, and sorc. It has the highest tooltip for a single target spammable, but this is balanced by its 0.8s cast time, which makes countering the ability relatively easy for an experienced player. Due to the cast time and ease of counter, it was never meant to be a true spammable, but rather a quick in-and-out burst ability for high damage builds. However, the recent meta shift to 1-shot burst damage has made Dizzying Swing much less competitive in that aspect. In BGs, high MMR stamina players mostly build into maximum mobility and use full damage 1-shot builds with DW as their front-bar weapon. This meta change combined with Dizzying Swing's predictability made it a very poor option for damage as players can simply run out of its range or block/dodge the damage with relative ease. In Cyrodiil, Dizzying Swing still remains a pug stomper, but very ineffective against good players.

I'd like to suggest two solutions to make Dizzying Swing competitive again for high level PvP:

1) Revert the ability to its old version with a 1.0s cast time and a very high tooltip. The current version does not offer the high risk, high reward feeling that you normally got. To make matter worse, it's also being outclassed by Surprise Attack, an overloaded single target spammable that's arguably the best in its category. By reverting back to the previous version, Dizzying Swing can fulfill its roll as a high risk, high reward burst "spammable". It will be easier to avoid, but the high damage compensates for that.

2) Remove the cast time and reduce the tooltip to be inline with other instant cast spammables. This essentially turns the ability into a true spammable, which can help it compete with the current fast paced one shot meta as the damage is now instant, making it harder to be avoided.

There are other spammables that are in need of a buff desperately more than dizzy, like wardens cliff racer necros skulls magblades swallow soul and stamdks poop fist imo.

So i am not against your argument, but i think other spammables should be prioritized first because they suck way more than dizzy.

MadeInVN

Ippokrates wrote: »

Yay, lets reduce cast time so those who are maining stamsorc can finally push their ultimate combo... XD

Actually no they wouldn't be able to. Dizzy having a cast time actually allows stamsorcs to line up 3 abilities in 1 GCD ( pre cast Cwep > Dizzying Swing > Ultimate or Executioner. Removing the cast time means you can only do Cwep > Dizzying Swing. At best, you can do Cwep > Bound Arms > Dizzying Swing. In a way it's a nerf for sorc burst, but a buff for sustained dmg.

MadeInVN

Greek_Hellspawn wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

For the past 2 years, Dizzying Swing remained relatively balanced and a top choice for stamina classes that don't have a good class spammable like DK, warden, necro, and sorc. It has the highest tooltip for a single target spammable, but this is balanced by its 0.8s cast time, which makes countering the ability relatively easy for an experienced player. Due to the cast time and ease of counter, it was never meant to be a true spammable, but rather a quick in-and-out burst ability for high damage builds. However, the recent meta shift to 1-shot burst damage has made Dizzying Swing much less competitive in that aspect. In BGs, high MMR stamina players mostly build into maximum mobility and use full damage 1-shot builds with DW as their front-bar weapon. This meta change combined with Dizzying Swing's predictability made it a very poor option for damage as players can simply run out of its range or block/dodge the damage with relative ease. In Cyrodiil, Dizzying Swing still remains a pug stomper, but very ineffective against good players.

I'd like to suggest two solutions to make Dizzying Swing competitive again for high level PvP:

1) Revert the ability to its old version with a 1.0s cast time and a very high tooltip. The current version does not offer the high risk, high reward feeling that you normally got. To make matter worse, it's also being outclassed by Surprise Attack, an overloaded single target spammable that's arguably the best in its category. By reverting back to the previous version, Dizzying Swing can fulfill its roll as a high risk, high reward burst "spammable". It will be easier to avoid, but the high damage compensates for that.

2) Remove the cast time and reduce the tooltip to be inline with other instant cast spammables. This essentially turns the ability into a true spammable, which can help it compete with the current fast paced one shot meta as the damage is now instant, making it harder to be avoided.

There are other spammables that are in need of a buff desperately more than dizzy, like wardens cliff racer necros skulls magblades swallow soul and stamdks poop fist imo.

So i am not against your argument, but i think other spammables should be prioritized first because they suck way more than dizzy.

Both poopfist and necro skulls need to be melee for stamdk and stamcro to use over dizzy atm. I personally wouldn't mind cliff racer buff, but their 1 shot combo is already lethal enough with dw/snb. If they did buff it, it would need to be melee as well.

MadeInVN

Redguards_Revenge wrote: »

Dizzy Swing is fine where it's at.

I remember some years ago I removed jabs off my bar and used dizzy swing. There were 2 reasons for this

1. Dizzy Swing is a Single Target Direct Damage move. Meaning it's damage wasn't nerfed by major and minor evasion.

2. When the first Dizzy Swing lands, the second hit is always free after the knockback. This forced them to go for trying to blast their heals. Then they would get knocked back again and then hit with a second free hit, then force them to heal. Repeated this and their resources would run out and they would die from Dizzy spam.

3. The damage dealt onto a player was higher than jabs.

It was fun that's why I came on to the forums and wrote satire about how jabs was useless compared to the dizzy swing. In pvp I went from average to a god. I even had the video proof.

It pretty much became an I Win button. So ZoS finally changed it to what it is right now. It is fair, reliable and useful.

I use it all the time on DK (Which is far better than Templar in everything in my opinion)

I put the DoTs on, I weave dizzy and heavy attacks while my DoTs stay on.

I should say I am comparing a stam Templar to stam DK.

NB takes the cake from both of them. I don't even cloak on NB. I use the healing option.

Every suggestion you make is to try and fix your own build. It's not to balance the game.

I'm sorry but if you actually fought anybody good you wouldn't think dizzy was good. Killing random pugs doesn't matter.

MadeInVN

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

"The recent meta to 1-shot..."

Uh no, that's just what you and others believe the META is. That doesn't make it so. The skill needs no changes, otherwise it can get them with a damage decrease.

Edit: And with frenzied momentum and other skills, lol no.

High level gameplay is mostly one shot meta. Unless you care to tell me what the meta is?

danthemann5

The other problem with Dizzy is that the 0.8 second cast time is only 0.8 seconds in theory. In practice it can be anywhere from 0.8 seconds up to 25 seconds, if it casts at all.

Ippokrates

MadeInVN wrote: »

Ippokrates wrote: »

Yay, lets reduce cast time so those who are maining stamsorc can finally push their ultimate combo... XD

Actually no they wouldn't be able to. Dizzy having a cast time actually allows stamsorcs to line up 3 abilities in 1 GCD ( pre cast Cwep > Dizzying Swing > Ultimate or Executioner. Removing the cast time means you can only do Cwep > Dizzying Swing. At best, you can do Cwep > Bound Arms > Dizzying Swing. In a way it's a nerf for sorc burst, but a buff for sustained dmg.

Yeah, but Crystal weapon & psijic weapon (and Overload) are going with LA, so you can land all 3 at once for opening, instead of having an 0.8 sec gap.

MadeInVN

Ippokrates wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Ippokrates wrote: »

Yay, lets reduce cast time so those who are maining stamsorc can finally push their ultimate combo... XD

Actually no they wouldn't be able to. Dizzy having a cast time actually allows stamsorcs to line up 3 abilities in 1 GCD ( pre cast Cwep > Dizzying Swing > Ultimate or Executioner. Removing the cast time means you can only do Cwep > Dizzying Swing. At best, you can do Cwep > Bound Arms > Dizzying Swing. In a way it's a nerf for sorc burst, but a buff for sustained dmg.

Yeah, but Crystal weapon & psijic weapon (and Overload) are going with LA, so you can land all 3 at once for opening, instead of having an 0.8 sec gap.

You aren't going to use overload with a melee build. It's not reliable in melee range. Try it and see for yourself.

Ippokrates

MadeInVN wrote: »

Ippokrates wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Ippokrates wrote: »

Yay, lets reduce cast time so those who are maining stamsorc can finally push their ultimate combo... XD

Actually no they wouldn't be able to. Dizzy having a cast time actually allows stamsorcs to line up 3 abilities in 1 GCD ( pre cast Cwep > Dizzying Swing > Ultimate or Executioner. Removing the cast time means you can only do Cwep > Dizzying Swing. At best, you can do Cwep > Bound Arms > Dizzying Swing. In a way it's a nerf for sorc burst, but a buff for sustained dmg.

Yeah, but Crystal weapon & psijic weapon (and Overload) are going with LA, so you can land all 3 at once for opening, instead of having an 0.8 sec gap.

You aren't going to use overload with a melee build. It's not reliable in melee range. Try it and see for yourself.

Did it, it was fun.

MadeInVN

Ippokrates wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Ippokrates wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Ippokrates wrote: »

Yay, lets reduce cast time so those who are maining stamsorc can finally push their ultimate combo... XD

Actually no they wouldn't be able to. Dizzy having a cast time actually allows stamsorcs to line up 3 abilities in 1 GCD ( pre cast Cwep > Dizzying Swing > Ultimate or Executioner. Removing the cast time means you can only do Cwep > Dizzying Swing. At best, you can do Cwep > Bound Arms > Dizzying Swing. In a way it's a nerf for sorc burst, but a buff for sustained dmg.

Yeah, but Crystal weapon & psijic weapon (and Overload) are going with LA, so you can land all 3 at once for opening, instead of having an 0.8 sec gap.

You aren't going to use overload with a melee build. It's not reliable in melee range. Try it and see for yourself.

Did it, it was fun.

When you're fighting high level players fun isn't equal to effective.

gariondavey

I miss the knock up into onslaught (before everyone realized onslaught was amazing with the refund if you got a kb)

gariondavey

Also wb instant with less damage would be nutty. Crystal weapon, crushing weapon, wb light attack animation cancel

MadeInVN

gariondavey wrote: »

Also wb instant with less damage would be nutty. Crystal weapon, crushing weapon, wb light attack animation cancel

Too much build up though. 2s is a really short amount of time and a random roll dodge neutralizes the combo.

Ippokrates

MadeInVN wrote: »

Ippokrates wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Ippokrates wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Ippokrates wrote: »

Yay, lets reduce cast time so those who are maining stamsorc can finally push their ultimate combo... XD

Actually no they wouldn't be able to. Dizzy having a cast time actually allows stamsorcs to line up 3 abilities in 1 GCD ( pre cast Cwep > Dizzying Swing > Ultimate or Executioner. Removing the cast time means you can only do Cwep > Dizzying Swing. At best, you can do Cwep > Bound Arms > Dizzying Swing. In a way it's a nerf for sorc burst, but a buff for sustained dmg.

Yeah, but Crystal weapon & psijic weapon (and Overload) are going with LA, so you can land all 3 at once for opening, instead of having an 0.8 sec gap.

You aren't going to use overload with a melee build. It's not reliable in melee range. Try it and see for yourself.

Did it, it was fun.

When you're fighting high level players fun isn't equal to effective.

So I have tested few combinations:
- Crystal + Psijic + LA + Brawler
- Crystal + Psijic + LA + Execute
- Crystal + Psijic + LA

Not only my LA component has been doubled by Overload but also I had a range flexibility, especially nice thing to see in option nr 3.

How was that proverb about bad dancer blame? ^^