Sandman929 wrote: »

The imbalanced strength of ball groups should have been addressed by addressing HoT stacking and purge spamming, not with sets. You could argue that Plaguebreak addresses purge spamming, but I still think a set is a lazy way to address problematic mechanics.

Addressing problematic mechanics removes the ability to exploit those mechanics, when you do this with a set, the set becomes ubiquitous.

Yes this is my main problem with these sets. Ball groups, tanky trolls, etc are balance issues that should be solved with changes to mechanics, not by adding more broken things to fix the old broken things.

Sorry replied to wrong post

Sluggy wrote: »

So here's my thing: I already fight against ballgroups while solo or duo or smallgroup or whatever. If they are clearly not super-organized and skilled then I take my chances and see what I can get away with. And if they aren't a rabbble? Well, I don't expect to win against a well organized, coordinated group that is gunning straight for me in those cases. It's always a case of 'I wonder how long I can make this last?' That's my goal. Distract them. Keep them busy until others arrive. Or just challenge myself to see what I can do. And I could already do this with the sets in the game. But right now I feel significantly less powerful now that others are using these new sets and I'm not.

No you might say, 'So? Just use the sets then!'. And I will... once I get them. But that's my biggest issue yet. Now I feel like I *have* to use them just to keep up. Just to have a chance to do what I did before now I feel like I'm going to have to drop everything I had before and just go with this one thing everyone else does. And until I actually get my hands on a complete set of these items, I guess I'll just have to get jerked around in Cyrodiil, generally not enjoying myself.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that if ballgroups are too strong, adding a few specific sets is not the right way to deal with it. Mechanic changes (like we've mentioned dozens of times for actual years now - similar heals stacking!) are the way I would prefer these 'problems' to be addressed. Not by shoehorning a lot of folks into using the same gear.

Sounds a lot like what I do when playing solo instead of grouped. My build/skills are 100% aimed at disrupting or killing groups, both coordinated or uncoordinated, and are pretty much useless in a 1v1. And there is nothing special about my build, although I am testing out DC at the moment, I can generally be found simply wearing Crafty, Spinners or similar no-proc type sets and it works out pretty well for me. More times than not, I can break up a group enough so our zerg or smaller groups can move in and take them down. The really good groups though, which are very few and far between, they pretty much roll over me if I am dumb enough to stay in their path, and I avoid their AP farming shenanigans like the plague, so it generally isn't a problem. I am a big believer in if you ignore them, they will go away and try something elsewhere.

An actual ballgroup doesn't go after solo players, so a solo player generally has to be doing something to get their attention and warrant being run down, to even have interactions with them generally. Which was a personal choice the solo player made, like taking a pot shot or two as they were running/riding past.

Kwoung wrote: »

Also I think it was last night (maybe 2 nights ago) in front of Faregyl, as a solo player I showed up to help the Daggerfall zerg try to take it, which ultimately failed due to no one working together and AD having 3 semi-coordinated groups running around. But in the 20 minutes I was there, I got about 50 kills, 20 killing blows and disrupted them quite a lot. So a solo player can actually make an impact, but whether it helps or not, strictly depends on the entire faction.

Quite honestly, I was satisfied overall with the encounter, even though we lost due to being vastly outnumbered and uncoordinated.

Was that last night in Raven? Was leading one of the groups in that zerg (well, zerg of guild groups). We really didn't expect to win that but were just trying to stir up a big fight because the map was so empty. And we got one. And it was fun

Ratzkifal wrote: »

When you break it down this entire issue is about the system favoring large groups to the point where they are undefeatable for solo players and smaller groups, even if the players are actually good. A good player will avoid a ballgroup, because they already know they don't stand a chance unless they have at least a similarly strong group on their side. Since ballgroups are so oppressive to solo players, letting them go unchecked means letting them drive out the solo players until ONLY ballgroups remain.

I'm not sure I understand your point here. You're arguing that just because a solo player or a small group is good, they somehow should be able to stand a chance against larger groups?

When I 1vX or smallscale I fully expect myself to get overwhelmed and die even if the larger group I'm fighting is less experienced than me or my group. Numbers don't always win, but it's a massive advantage. All it takes is one person fossilizing you at the right time or one person in full damage hitting you with unblockable/undodgable damage and you die. There's nothing wrong with bigger groups killing smaller groups. What's wrong is sets that introduce imbalance to the game.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

So in order to accommodate for solo/smallscale players and to break the dominance of performance reducing ballgroups, they are adding new tools to combat the ballgroups. That is a good thing. We can debate on whether these sets achieve that in a healthy way or not all day, but you can't deny that these sets do what they are supposed to do - provide a counter to large groups.

Not really because what you can use, ball groups can also use, and they do it better. Your 4 man group runs 3 convergence? Well that 12 man ball group over there runs 11 convergence and they will literally layer the entire ground where you stand with this proc and eliminate you from the start. Your group runs plaguebreak? They can too, and they have twice or 3 times the healing power that your 4 man group has. What are you going to do when 6 people spams plaguebreak at you and out-damage all your heals?

Introducing sets to counter a mechanic is never a good thing and usually ends up being counterproductive. We've learned this from previous patches when sets that applied major defile were supposed to counter players with high heals, but ended up hurting the ones with less heals the most.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Ballgroups will adapt. They always do. But they won't stack up into unkillable balls of death anymore, who run around inside a hostile keep that isn't even flagged as under attack, killing respawning players and generating huge offensive ticks in the process. That was the entire problem to begin with. Whether these new sets are healthy or not, this unhealthy play pattern is what needed to be addressed.

Wait so what's wrong with running around a keep farming players? Whether you like it or not, they are PvPing and not breaking any rules. In fact, they are indirectly helping their faction by holding off players of your faction at one place so their faction doesn't have to worry about extra enemies to fight. Yea they aren't flagging the keep, but they're farming 20 ADs, and those 20 ADs will call for more ADs to come, and that gives the ballgroup's faction free keeps to capture.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

It doesn't matter if it takes skill to be a ballgroup or not. If something can be so dramatically out of control that it is ruining the fun of anyone who isn't following the same strategy, then something is very wrong with the game.

My group isn't a ball group, but we're still farming players. Yea we can't farm 30 random pugs, but we can definitely take on 12 pugs with our 4 man. I can also take on 5 pugs by myself. When I run with my small scale group, I go to remote places and flag keeps. I do exactly what those ballgroups do, but on a smaller scale. I'll get enough attention, and my group starts farming players. I'm not forced to follow the same strat, I don't have dedicated purge bots. In fact, we don't even stick together like ballgroups because we are all 1vXers who are capable of surviving by ourselves. But as long as the game doesn't lag we'll have fun farming pugs.

What I'm saying is you don't have to fight those ball groups. Cyrodiil is so large you can get fights literally anywhere as long as the campaign isn't dead.

MadeInVN wrote: »

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

fullheartcontainer wrote: »

. Balance in a game doesn't come from the fact that every style of gameplay is equal to all others. A solo player shouldn't be balanced against a group of people who coordinate their gear, abilities, and use comms for fights. Similarly, an uncoordinated zerg of light attacking potatoes has no inherent right to kill a coordinated group just because they outnumber them. If you want to kill a coordinated group, bring a coordinated group. Those *were* balanced against each other just fine.

Skill > sets. People that whine for more and more sets to help them but refuse to actually get good at the game or work with a group will lose every time.

Also balance should not came from some broken machanics, we all know ball groups have an easy life because they prey on those mechanic like purge spam and overstacking of heals.
I would agree to remove these new sets if also those mechanics would be adjusted.

How is purge spam and overstacking of heals "broken mechanics"?

You have access to purge spam. All you need to do is make a dedicated purge bot build and voila, you can now use that "broken mechanic" to aid your faction. Same with healing.

Ball groups' biggest strength is division of labor. They have specific people doing specific roles. It's how they synergize and make sure everyone is on the same boat. It's not an easy job lol. I played in a ball group for a day as a guest and I got to know how they function, and you would be surprised at the amount of dedication they put into the game to make their group good. It's no different than a PvE group min maxing to attempt a Godslayer run.

Just to give you a little insight into how they function, here's what the group I ran with did:

1) Nobody talks except for the leader making calls and healers saying their X ability is up.

2) Had 3-4 healers each wearing specific sets and using specific abilities. Healers had to call out when X ability is up. When 1 healer was in trouble, the other healer had to cover that player while also doing their own part.

3) DPS is the least stressful role. All they had to do was wear X gear, pop X ability, and cleave.

4) Leader is by far the most stressful role. They have to read the fight and get their group to move as one. They make decisions on the fly and the group literally depends on their call. If their group dies it's on them. There were many fights where the leader of the group I was with made a bad call and had the entire group wiped, like pushing into the inner keep when oils weren't finished dumping, etc.

The fact that they spend months/years practicing, coordinate gear/skills/composition and have tight communications is inconsequential! I should be able to slap on a proc set and run into them on my noob character and have a better than average chance of killing them all! Also, all godslayer runs should have to be run naked, to make it fair for everyone!

/sarcasm off

neferpitou73 wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

fullheartcontainer wrote: »

. Balance in a game doesn't come from the fact that every style of gameplay is equal to all others. A solo player shouldn't be balanced against a group of people who coordinate their gear, abilities, and use comms for fights. Similarly, an uncoordinated zerg of light attacking potatoes has no inherent right to kill a coordinated group just because they outnumber them. If you want to kill a coordinated group, bring a coordinated group. Those *were* balanced against each other just fine.

Skill > sets. People that whine for more and more sets to help them but refuse to actually get good at the game or work with a group will lose every time.

Also balance should not came from some broken machanics, we all know ball groups have an easy life because they prey on those mechanic like purge spam and overstacking of heals.
I would agree to remove these new sets if also those mechanics would be adjusted.

How is purge spam and overstacking of heals "broken mechanics"?

You have access to purge spam. All you need to do is make a dedicated purge bot build and voila, you can now use that "broken mechanic" to aid your faction. Same with healing.

Ball groups' biggest strength is division of labor. They have specific people doing specific roles. It's how they synergize and make sure everyone is on the same boat. It's not an easy job lol. I played in a ball group for a day as a guest and I got to know how they function, and you would be surprised at the amount of dedication they put into the game to make their group good. It's no different than a PvE group min maxing to attempt a Godslayer run.

Just to give you a little insight into how they function, here's what the group I ran with did:

1) Nobody talks except for the leader making calls and healers saying their X ability is up.

2) Had 3-4 healers each wearing specific sets and using specific abilities. Healers had to call out when X ability is up. When 1 healer was in trouble, the other healer had to cover that player while also doing their own part.

3) DPS is the least stressful role. All they had to do was wear X gear, pop X ability, and cleave.

4) Leader is by far the most stressful role. They have to read the fight and get their group to move as one. They make decisions on the fly and the group literally depends on their call. If their group dies it's on them. There were many fights where the leader of the group I was with made a bad call and had the entire group wiped, like pushing into the inner keep when oils weren't finished dumping, etc.

This is really important to note as well. Mechanical skill is not the only type of skill in the game (as ball group opponents claim). Being able to make good builds is a skill. Designing builds that synergize is a skill. Leading is a skill. And it's all very hard work. In the same way that one practices mechanical skill by working on their rotation, resource management etc, ball group designers can go through several different comps until they find one they like (and fits their groups ability and playstyle), leaders must practice giving commands, learning tactics etc. We even host training sessions.

Claiming mechanical skill is the only skill that matters is like claiming a martial artist is superior to a rocket scientist because the martial artist can beat the scientist in a one-on-one fight. Well yeah, but the rocket scientist can design a missile that kills the martial artist before he gets close. Which one is more "skilled" is based on the type of skill you're looking at.

Now, of course this is a game so we can't let the scientist design nukes, otherwise it wouldn't be any fun. But completely dismissing the scientist's skill and not allowing him to play isn't much fun either.

What ZOS has done with these sets is essentially handed everyone a nuke and said "go have fun!"

It should be noted as well, that every patch changes everything, pretty much every time, and they have to start over redesigning it all again. I play in a coordinated group as well as solo, and our leaders work very hard and spend days experimenting & testing builds, rotations, etc... As a member, I feel if I don't run 10+ chars to tier 1 a month and open a ROTW daily, on top of doing crafting dailies with each of those chars... I will almost never have enough transmutes or crafting materials to keep up, so even as a DPS who simply needs to follow orders, I have to make a pretty huge commitment in time, effort, gold and materials to remain effective in said group for a couple days a week of play. This current patch cost me about a half million gold, 500+ transmutes and a bunch of really expensive mats out of the gate, just to see what works now.

MadeInVN wrote: »

How is purge spam and overstacking of heals "broken mechanics"?

When someone can stand still in an oil shower, hit by several coldfire ballista and several players at same time and have his heal not go below 90% that means there is a broken mechanic in the game.
The fact that everyone has access to it mean nothing.