Dark Convergence and other AOE set&skill mechanics have finally leveled the playing field!

Playnice

FINALLY we are able to play in a Cyrodiil where smaller groups have a fair chance at putting up a fight. Steam rolling through players isn't as trivial as it used to be. The ball groups have to adapt and play smarter now, which is so refreshing to be honest. Balling up in a tight 12 person heal machine isn't the same 1 trick pony that it used to be. Due to Plaguebreak, the ball groups will need to be mindful use purge at the right moment instead of having it in their rotation. Dark Convergence and Proxy Det will force them to actually spread out once in a while. The playing field has been leveled my friends. This is good news for all of us. Even ball groups should be happy that they will have a new changeling to crack.

Red_Feather

When are all the new sets usually nerfed. There is typically a grace period isn't there. To get people to buy stuff. Just wondering how long to wait before investing any time or money.

Stx

Never in any game have I seen this wierd entitled mindset that solo or smaller groups of players should be able to combat or defeat larger organized groups of players. It's very bizarre.

Also, these sets won't change anything. The larger groups can use these sets too, and they are so overtuned right now that they are just as effective at killing small groups of players.

Sluggy

Except the ballgroups can run it too. And when it stacks on you, say goodbye to the use of any abilities. Dodge, block, skill, even barswap, all gone. Then four seconds later - *pop*.

Sluggy

Red_Feather wrote: »

When are all the new sets usually nerfed. There is typically a grace period isn't there. To get people to buy stuff. Just wondering how long to wait before investing any time or money.

At the very least, until the next patch. But sometimes there are sets that people will call for nerfs before they even get out the gate and it still takes like a year or so before they get around to it. So I'd say if you wanna try it, get em now. Even if they don't get nerfed next patch there is always a chance down the road.

spacefracking

They're working on it. IC had some pretty cursed stuff happening when I saw a few practicing. I do think that specifically Plaguebreak will end up as their stopping block when dealing with this new meta, as removing mass purges without thinking too hard or coordinating the crap out of will modify their overall strategy pretty drastically. Dark convergence can definitely be weaponized by ball groups, and they seem to be working on it successfully. Hrothgar with like, onslaught or something will help immensely with unoptimized troll tanks at least, which is another problem.

All I'm looking for is a fix for a single player to take 20 players for 5 minutes, and ball groups trolling inside keeps for sometimes near an dang hour against 4x the numbers. Inev dets could get some less experienced balls, but coordinating pugs to do it, cast time, LoS issues, and the lack of the plague spread limited it's viability for pugs to self-coordinate. They still have the cursed heal over time stacking, so they can still continue their ball nonsense to a large degree instead of playing like the truly skilled small scalers. There are a couple I'm sure will train up successfully to deal with it tho.

Red_Feather

Maybe they should all do their damage through a countdown debuff as that kind of thing cannot stack.

I am using the dark convergence one and it shouldn't allow multiple people to cast that on the same target and get extra damage.

Nemeliom

Red_Feather wrote: »

When are all the new sets usually nerfed. There is typically a grace period isn't there. To get people to buy stuff. Just wondering how long to wait before investing any time or money.

Expect at least 1 month before the nerf.

MadeInVN

I'm a solo PvPer/smallscaler, and I don't think any mechanic/set that allows 1 person/small group to completely wipe a larger coordinated group should exist in the game. It's broken gameplay at its core.

Instead of introducing sets to counter ball groups, ZOS needs to attack the mechanics that make ball groups strong in the first place. Diminishing cross heals with increasing group size, capping group heals, capping AoE purge, etc. are much better and more balanced at limiting a large group's strength than what we currently have in this new patch.

Playnice

Stx wrote: »

Never in any game have I seen this wierd entitled mindset that solo or smaller groups of players should be able to combat or defeat larger organized groups of players. It's very bizarre.

Also, these sets won't change anything. The larger groups can use these sets too, and they are so overtuned right now that they are just as effective at killing small groups of players.

What is bizarre to me is the mindset that group size should be the only factor in success.

ResidentContrarian

Playnice wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Never in any game have I seen this wierd entitled mindset that solo or smaller groups of players should be able to combat or defeat larger organized groups of players. It's very bizarre.

Also, these sets won't change anything. The larger groups can use these sets too, and they are so overtuned right now that they are just as effective at killing small groups of players.

What is bizarre to me is the mindset that group size should be the only factor in success.

It only proves that, unlike ball groups claimed, there was never any real skill involved in running them and that numbers really did give the ultimate advantage via purge stacking, heal stacking, and partial or fully defensive builds relying on lag, cc spam, and break free bugging out to win.

There are cases where these sets are ridiculous, but if players are actually distributed instead of balled up, the sets become less of a problem and inconsequential in the overall battles I have seen.

relentless_turnip

I normally hate proc sets, but am enjoying this patch alot. I have been using Hrothgar and have never found it so easy to fight outnumbered 😂 I haven't hit anyone above 4k yet that I have witnessed(and I do review combat tactics frequently), though I pretty much one shot someone who used berserker strike on me 😬 its probably bugged, but in principle it should be fairly balanced as it hits everyone for the same percentage. I have also not been hit with a Hrothgar proc over 3.5k... yet 😬 I have been playing alot this week before I gave my opinion.

The other sets don't bother me as I normally play on my own on high damage classes with no purge. Totally understand this is annoying for those who are used to being able survive in groups.
I do think Hrothgar's proc percentage should scale with your weapon damage as it does bypass the rule ATM. It would also need to be capped as I could easily abuse the current proc scaling🤭. Again this wouldn't bother me as I always just stack as much damage as I can. Seems like plaguebreak needs a cap too and dark convergence a bigger delay before the pull. Other than that I am personally OK with these sets. Though I appreciate the majority don't play the same way as me.

Sluggy

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I normally hate proc sets, but am enjoying this patch alot. I have been using Hrothgar and have never found it so easy to fight outnumbered 😂 I haven't hit anyone above 4k yet that I have witnessed(and I do review combat tactics frequently), though I pretty much one shot someone who used berserker strike on me 😬 its probably bugged, but in principle it should be fairly balanced as it hits everyone for the same percentage. I have also not been hit with a Hrothgar proc over 3.5k... yet 😬 I have been playing alot this week before I gave my opinion.

The other sets don't bother me as I normally play on my own on high damage classes with no purge. Totally understand this is annoying for those who are used to being able survive in groups.
I do think Hrothgar's proc percentage should scale with your weapon damage as it does bypass the rule ATM. It would also need to be capped as I could easily abuse the current proc scaling🤭. Again this wouldn't bother me as I always just stack as much damage as I can. Seems like plaguebreak needs a cap too and dark convergence a bigger delay before the pull. Other than that I am personally OK with these sets. Though I appreciate the majority don't play the same way as me.

I play solo a lot too and I've been running into fights where I get absolutely obliterated by Dark Convergence. Even if the proc itself doesn't kill me, the fact that it glues me to the floor and disables all of my abilties for four seconds sure does make me easy pickings. Once entire groups start running you over with this I think you'll likely find it's not so fun anymore. And even int the fights where I'm not getting completely frozen in time and I *can* still escape the AoE and avoid the bomb the fights are just really really annoying. It's usually a Nightblade that drops the effect and then goes into stealth and waits it out until their target either gets low or resets the fight. And I'm usually too busy trying to avoid the bomb to properly setup any kind of counter so it's just a total stalemate.

As for Plaguebreak, dunno. I haven't suffered form it yet but like you I don't run a purge and I rarely play in groups. I have yet to see Hrothgar hit me once either. But I had already knew about that one and planned accordingly by stacking non-armor mitigation before the patch even dropped, so who knows?

Stx

Playnice wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Never in any game have I seen this wierd entitled mindset that solo or smaller groups of players should be able to combat or defeat larger organized groups of players. It's very bizarre.

Also, these sets won't change anything. The larger groups can use these sets too, and they are so overtuned right now that they are just as effective at killing small groups of players.

What is bizarre to me is the mindset that group size should be the only factor in success.

No one has this mindset..

Jaimeh

I just witnessed a funny thing today: ep/dc were fighting for a dropped hammer, and there were so many dark convergence on it that no one could pick it up for a good few minutes What a way to use the set

katorga

Red_Feather wrote: »

Maybe they should all do their damage through a countdown debuff as that kind of thing cannot stack.

I am using the dark convergence one and it shouldn't allow multiple people to cast that on the same target and get extra damage.

That would not be "performant",

katorga

Playnice wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Never in any game have I seen this wierd entitled mindset that solo or smaller groups of players should be able to combat or defeat larger organized groups of players. It's very bizarre.

Also, these sets won't change anything. The larger groups can use these sets too, and they are so overtuned right now that they are just as effective at killing small groups of players.

What is bizarre to me is the mindset that group size should be the only factor in success.

Umm, that is the case in real life, not just video games.

More almost always beats less. In eso each addition player is a 100% "buff", unless ZOS arbitrarily adds functions to off set the advantage, things whose damage scales with the number of targets.

ResidentContrarian

katorga wrote: »

Playnice wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Never in any game have I seen this wierd entitled mindset that solo or smaller groups of players should be able to combat or defeat larger organized groups of players. It's very bizarre.

Also, these sets won't change anything. The larger groups can use these sets too, and they are so overtuned right now that they are just as effective at killing small groups of players.

What is bizarre to me is the mindset that group size should be the only factor in success.

Umm, that is the case in real life, not just video games.

More almost always beats less. In eso each addition player is a 100% "buff", unless ZOS arbitrarily adds functions to off set the advantage, things whose damage scales with the number of targets.

Not when you use skills that execute based on the lowest health person, heal based on # of targets, gain resources based on attacks, get healed on attacks (living dark can heal more than ball group players push out causing you to never die), etc.

I am surprised no one has made a templar cheese build yet. It's certainly possible and would take 5 seconds to put together one to best exploit these sets.

Abyssmol

Stx wrote: »

Never in any game have I seen this wierd entitled mindset that solo or smaller groups of players should be able to combat or defeat larger organized groups of players. It's very bizarre.

Also, these sets won't change anything. The larger groups can use these sets too, and they are so overtuned right now that they are just as effective at killing small groups of players.

If large groups are also effective using these new sets then I call these new sets well balanced. 👍 A step in the right direction!

Abyssmol

MadeInVN wrote: »

I'm a solo PvPer/smallscaler, and I don't think any mechanic/set that allows 1 person/small group to completely wipe a larger coordinated group should exist in the game. It's broken gameplay at its core.

Instead of introducing sets to counter ball groups, ZOS needs to attack the mechanics that make ball groups strong in the first place. Diminishing cross heals with increasing group size, capping group heals, capping AoE purge, etc. are much better and more balanced at limiting a large group's strength than what we currently have in this new patch.

I bet you see well "Coordinated" groups taking scrolls and staying in the keeps for hours faming players. It's that what ZOS intended - un-killable groups? If ZOS remove cross healing and purge to apply to one person only, then yes, remove the new sets. But until then ZOS should make these new sets even more deadly.

PhoenixGrey

Stx wrote: »

Never in any game have I seen this wierd entitled mindset that solo or smaller groups of players should be able to combat or defeat larger organized groups of players. It's very bizarre.

Also, these sets won't change anything. The larger groups can use these sets too, and they are so overtuned right now that they are just as effective at killing small groups of players.

So a bunch of really bad players should be allowed to kill a competent one ? What's the use of progression and skill then ?

MadeInVN

Abyssmol wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

I'm a solo PvPer/smallscaler, and I don't think any mechanic/set that allows 1 person/small group to completely wipe a larger coordinated group should exist in the game. It's broken gameplay at its core.

Instead of introducing sets to counter ball groups, ZOS needs to attack the mechanics that make ball groups strong in the first place. Diminishing cross heals with increasing group size, capping group heals, capping AoE purge, etc. are much better and more balanced at limiting a large group's strength than what we currently have in this new patch.

I bet you see well "Coordinated" groups taking scrolls and staying in the keeps for hours faming players. It's that what ZOS intended - un-killable groups? If ZOS remove cross healing and purge to apply to one person only, then yes, remove the new sets. But until then ZOS should make these new sets even more deadly.

Un-killable to the eyes of an average pug? Absolutely. Un-killable to other equally coordinated ball groups? Absolutely not. In the eyes of 4 pugs I am un-killable, and even outright a cheater. But in the eyes of another good player, I'm just competition - someone they would want to have a fight with.

It's mind boggling to think that coordinated groups should suffer because a bunch of random pugs don't bother to actually group up and learn to work with each other. Even more so, it's mind boggling to think that random pugs should be given the tools to punish coordinated groups who put in the time and effort to synergize their gameplay.

neferpitou73

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Never in any game have I seen this wierd entitled mindset that solo or smaller groups of players should be able to combat or defeat larger organized groups of players. It's very bizarre.

Also, these sets won't change anything. The larger groups can use these sets too, and they are so overtuned right now that they are just as effective at killing small groups of players.

So a bunch of really bad players should be allowed to kill a competent one ? What's the use of progression and skill then ?

I love the assumption here that the players in ball groups are not competent Some of the most highly skilled players I've known (and I'm talking 1v1 not in groups) run in and lead ball groups. They just happen to have more fun paying with their friends then running around a rock by themselves.

I also laugh at how anyone in Cyrodiil can call anything skill-based when half the skills don't fire 90% of the time. Unless we're considering a better connection to the server a skill.

And so what if the players inside groups are more competent than they are outside of one. Should their fun be ruined because one guys is upset he can't 1v 12. You can call ball groups overtuned if you want, and try to nerf them. But this idea that people who run in ball groups are all sweaty jerks who just want to farm noobs isn't reality. Are there toxic ball groups? Yes. Just as there are toxic solo players and small-scale groups and pvE snobs. But almost everyone I've ran with just enjoy having people to play with.

MadeInVN wrote: »

Abyssmol wrote: »

MadeInVN wrote: »

I'm a solo PvPer/smallscaler, and I don't think any mechanic/set that allows 1 person/small group to completely wipe a larger coordinated group should exist in the game. It's broken gameplay at its core.

Instead of introducing sets to counter ball groups, ZOS needs to attack the mechanics that make ball groups strong in the first place. Diminishing cross heals with increasing group size, capping group heals, capping AoE purge, etc. are much better and more balanced at limiting a large group's strength than what we currently have in this new patch.

I bet you see well "Coordinated" groups taking scrolls and staying in the keeps for hours faming players. It's that what ZOS intended - un-killable groups? If ZOS remove cross healing and purge to apply to one person only, then yes, remove the new sets. But until then ZOS should make these new sets even more deadly.

Un-killable to the eyes of an average pug? Absolutely. Un-killable to other equally coordinated ball groups? Absolutely not. In the eyes of 4 pugs I am un-killable, and even outright a cheater. But in the eyes of another good player, I'm just competition - someone they would want to have a fight with.

It's mind boggling to think that coordinated groups should suffer because a bunch of random pugs don't bother to actually group up and learn to work with each other. Even more so, it's mind boggling to think that random pugs should be given the tools to punish coordinated groups who put in the time and effort to synergize their gameplay.

Exactly. Cyrodiil is the large scale pvp zone. It is made for large groups clashing against each other. If you want small scale deathmatches that's what Bg's are for. If you want smaller scale objective play, that's what IC is for. Cyrodiil so the only zone that allows the closest thing to guild v guild combat.

MadeInVN

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Exactly. Cyrodiil is the large scale pvp zone. It is made for large groups clashing against each other. If you want small scale deathmatches that's what Bg's are for. If you want smaller scale objective play, that's what IC is for. Cyrodiil so the only zone that allows the closest thing to guild v guild combat.

I don't mind small scalers fighting random pugs in cyrodiil. But they should understand they aren't going to always win a fight against a larger organized group.

My smallscale group will often try to poke a larger group. It's mostly just to get a reaction out of them, as we know if they give chase we would just kite them away from whatever plan they are doing. Most organized groups also don't bother chasing us anyways because it's just not worth it, unless we annoy them so much to the point they have to eliminate us. When we do die to them, we don't take it to heart because that's an inevitable outcome lol.

Valabrog

Try playing BG..

mikey_reach

For all of those saying ball groups can use the same set to kill a small group or a solo player. You need to understand that ball groups were going to kill you regardless of if they wear that same set or not. The point is that now an individual player has a fighting chance against that ball group because the set’s effectiveness increases the more targets are around. Agaisnt a single player effectiveness its at its lowest but against a ball group effectiveness is at its highest. Ball groups are in a way but not entirely better off wearing group buff sets that just dark convergence on each toon not to say that it wouldnt work either.

fullheartcontainer

mikey_reach wrote: »

For all of those saying ball groups can use the same set to kill a small group or a solo player. You need to understand that ball groups were going to kill you regardless of if they wear that same set or not. The point is that now an individual player has a fighting chance against that ball group because the set’s effectiveness increases the more targets are around. Agaisnt a single player effectiveness its at its lowest but against a ball group effectiveness is at its highest. Ball groups are in a way but not entirely better off wearing group buff sets that just dark convergence on each toon not to say that it wouldnt work either.

but the thing is, they shouldn't. An unskilled solo player by all means should die to an organized group. Balance in a game doesn't come from the fact that every style of gameplay is equal to all others. A solo player shouldn't be balanced against a group of people who coordinate their gear, abilities, and use comms for fights. Similarly, an uncoordinated zerg of light attacking potatoes has no inherent right to kill a coordinated group just because they outnumber them. If you want to kill a coordinated group, bring a coordinated group. Those *were* balanced against each other just fine.

Skill > sets. People that whine for more and more sets to help them but refuse to actually get good at the game or work with a group will lose every time.

neferpitou73

fullheartcontainer wrote: »

mikey_reach wrote: »

For all of those saying ball groups can use the same set to kill a small group or a solo player. You need to understand that ball groups were going to kill you regardless of if they wear that same set or not. The point is that now an individual player has a fighting chance against that ball group because the set’s effectiveness increases the more targets are around. Agaisnt a single player effectiveness its at its lowest but against a ball group effectiveness is at its highest. Ball groups are in a way but not entirely better off wearing group buff sets that just dark convergence on each toon not to say that it wouldnt work either.

but the thing is, they shouldn't. An unskilled solo player by all means should die to an organized group. Balance in a game doesn't come from the fact that every style of gameplay is equal to all others. A solo player shouldn't be balanced against a group of people who coordinate their gear, abilities, and use comms for fights. Similarly, an uncoordinated zerg of light attacking potatoes has no inherent right to kill a coordinated group just because they outnumber them. If you want to kill a coordinated group, bring a coordinated group. Those *were* balanced against each other just fine.

Skill > sets. People that whine for more and more sets to help them but refuse to actually get good at the game or work with a group will lose every time.

This 100%

Marcus_Aurelius

fullheartcontainer wrote: »

. Balance in a game doesn't come from the fact that every style of gameplay is equal to all others. A solo player shouldn't be balanced against a group of people who coordinate their gear, abilities, and use comms for fights. Similarly, an uncoordinated zerg of light attacking potatoes has no inherent right to kill a coordinated group just because they outnumber them. If you want to kill a coordinated group, bring a coordinated group. Those *were* balanced against each other just fine.

Skill > sets. People that whine for more and more sets to help them but refuse to actually get good at the game or work with a group will lose every time.

Also balance should not came from some broken machanics, we all know ball groups have an easy life because they prey on those mechanic like purge spam and overstacking of heals.
I would agree to remove these new sets if also those mechanics would be adjusted.

ResidentContrarian

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

fullheartcontainer wrote: »

. Balance in a game doesn't come from the fact that every style of gameplay is equal to all others. A solo player shouldn't be balanced against a group of people who coordinate their gear, abilities, and use comms for fights. Similarly, an uncoordinated zerg of light attacking potatoes has no inherent right to kill a coordinated group just because they outnumber them. If you want to kill a coordinated group, bring a coordinated group. Those *were* balanced against each other just fine.

Skill > sets. People that whine for more and more sets to help them but refuse to actually get good at the game or work with a group will lose every time.

Also balance should not came from some broken machanics, we all know ball groups have an easy life because they prey on those mechanic like purge spam and overstacking of heals.
I would agree to remove these new sets if also those mechanics would be adjusted.

Don't forget the "secret" mechanic that HoTs always apply before damage in the game.

It is the biggest secret in the game, and why you can't kill those living dark templars or that one guy that drops a load of HoTs on themselves even if you have the damage to destroy them.

ZOS can revert that change any day of the week and it won't harm most players in the game, but will knock the power out of ball groups and make stacking HoT less effective than using direct heals.

Make those players have to block and roll like everyone else does in the game instead of gaining an absolute advantage because of a terrible change 2-3 years ago.

mikey_reach

The sets are strong no doubt, most likely will get tweaks in the future but i love them it has made cyrodiil fun. But then agaisnt like 90% of the time i am solo.