Are high end PVE groups running healers?

hexnotic · August 2021

I am curious if people who run vet dlc hm 4 man are running healers. When I used to do content running a healer wasn’t encouraged, but I just wanted to check in. I’m so behind on the meta, and it seems like all of the online builds haven’t changed. This is so confusing!

Jaimeh · August 2021

Most groups won't, but even in that high-end spectrum it depends on the dungeon, I'd say. Or it could be a hybrid DD/healer.

Franchise408 · August 2021

Define high end?

We always run a healer in our vet dungeons

Soulshine · August 2021

Speaking as one - yes. Some of the vet DLC hms can be done without one, but too many people say that and imply that "can be done" means "can be done by anyone" ---- that is hardly the case.

JoDiMageio · August 2021

Last time I played any group content, "all the deeps" was the mindset. Groups were willing to give the spot to DDs instead to burn bosses quickly, and found that the loss of not having healers providing buffs was mitigated by the speed at which bosses went down.

Went well for most content.

As someone who only plays healers, I have felt pretty obsolete for some time.

kojou · August 2021

It depends on the dungeon...

Most can be done without tanks too, but it isn't the greatest experience.

Franchise408 · August 2021

I'm pretty sure the math has been done and having a healer providing buffs adds more DPS than just having a 3rd DD

There's more to this game than just "moar damage"

Sephyr · August 2021

Soulshine wrote: »

Speaking as one - yes. Some of the vet DLC hms can be done without one, but too many people say that and imply that "can be done" means "can be done by anyone" ---- that is hardly the case.

Exactly this and I couldn't have said it better myself. Some can be done without tanks, some without healers, but that doesn't mean people should expect things like that. I myself love the holy trifecta and will abide by the holy trifecta until it's taken out to pasture.

zelaminator · August 2021

We always bring healers in ours

UGotBenched91 · August 2021

I’ve never experienced the high endgame pve but I feel like no mmo should be set up where higher end content can be completed without a tank or healer. Just my thoughts.

Hapexamendios · August 2021

In vet DLC dungeons we usually do.

Grandchamp1989 · August 2021

The only hardmode I really prefer to run a pure 3dd run over having a healer is Bloodroot Forge

The endboss is basicly 3 one-shot bosses healers can't do much about, and it is a DPS race to kill the 3 forms of earthgore before the room fills with lava - which means more DPS makes for a safer run.

Other than Bloodroot most capable healers know how to micromanage their time between healing/buffing and doing damage, and will adapt to situations fight by fight. Many will have multiple setups and a wardrobe that would make even the most fashion conscious stand in envy.

A pure regen-heavy attack healer is easily swapped but a proper healer aka support is worth its weight in gold.

Aznarb · August 2021

hexnotic wrote: »

I am curious if people who run vet dlc hm 4 man are running healers. When I used to do content running a healer wasn’t encouraged, but I just wanted to check in. I’m so behind on the meta, and it seems like all of the online builds haven’t changed. This is so confusing!

Only in some, most good player can run close to all 4 man content with 1 tank + 3 DDs.
That doesn't mean healer are useless, cuz most people don't have this level, but at high level it's possible to get ride of it.

Parasaurolophus · August 2021

Only HM in Stone Garden. All other dungeons with hm are much more comfortable to complete without a healer.

SimonThesis · August 2021

Unfortunately 4 dps in trial sets and arena weapons can 4 dps almost any content excpet for a few HMs. I think pve content should be adjusted to make having a healer more essential. Unfortunately, passive damage is very low but burst damage is high in pve content so as long as you can rolldodge attacks you dont need a healer. I think they should increase passive damage sources in pve to make healers more vital every dungeon should have at least a minor heal check.

Parasaurolophus · August 2021

SimonThesis wrote: »

Unfortunately 4 dps in trial sets and arena weapons can 4 dps almost any content excpet for a few HMs. I think pve content should be adjusted to make having a healer more essential. Unfortunately, passive damage is very low but burst damage is high in pve content so as long as you can rolldodge attacks you dont need a healer. I think they should increase passive damage sources in pve to make healers more vital every dungeon should have at least a minor heal check.

Making a healer necessary to complete a dungeon means making it unplayable for 99.999% of players. Look at the Stone Garden, look at the last secret boss in the Villa.

hexnotic · August 2021

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Only HM in Stone Garden. All other dungeons with hm are much more comfortable to complete without a healer.

yeah i was so happy when i realized that stone garden hm NEEDS a healer (for most groups lol). that fight is so fun to heal, i feel like i’m actually doing something

UGotBenched91 · August 2021

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

SimonThesis wrote: »

Unfortunately 4 dps in trial sets and arena weapons can 4 dps almost any content excpet for a few HMs. I think pve content should be adjusted to make having a healer more essential. Unfortunately, passive damage is very low but burst damage is high in pve content so as long as you can rolldodge attacks you dont need a healer. I think they should increase passive damage sources in pve to make healers more vital every dungeon should have at least a minor heal check.

Making a healer necessary to complete a dungeon means making it unplayable for 99.999% of players. Look at the Stone Garden, look at the last secret boss in the Villa.

How would this make it unplayable for 99.999% of players? Hard mode and vet dungeon/trials should require healing and shouldn’t be able to be dpsed through or soloed. It’s group content.

woe · August 2021

Anything that isn't new dlc people usually just run pale order

Red_Feather · August 2021

I have hybrid healers and I was asked if I wanted to do a dungeon with guildies and it turned out we were doing a veteran dungeon and as soon as I realized it I asked "is this vet? Because I'm a hybrid healer and not true healer!" and the said "we'll be okay" and we did it surprisingly.

Veles · August 2021

Are we talking about health dealers, which are not particularly needed anywhere or about smart support, which (when creating a paired setup with a tank ) can set 2 dd to damage more than 3 dd.

Amottica · August 2021

Soulshine wrote: »

Speaking as one - yes. Some of the vet DLC hms can be done without one, but too many people say that and imply that "can be done" means "can be done by anyone" ---- that is hardly the case.

This comment is very accurate. It’s a very small portion of the player base that can clear vHM dungeons without a healer and even then it’s dungeons that are pretty much on farm.

More importantly, there is nothing wrong with groups and players who need a healer.

Soulshine · August 2021

SimonThesis wrote: »

Unfortunately 4 dps in trial sets and arena weapons can 4 dps almost any content excpet for a few HMs. I think pve content should be adjusted to make having a healer more essential. Unfortunately, passive damage is very low but burst damage is high in pve content so as long as you can rolldodge attacks you dont need a healer. I think they should increase passive damage sources in pve to make healers more vital every dungeon should have at least a minor heal check.

Generally speaking, by the time one has actually gotten even a few base game dungeons in, it's fairly obvious that staying out of stupid is essential for anyone in any dungeon in order to keep doing damage, let alone do anything else.

The thing is you don't bring a healer in vet DLCs hms (or anywhere, for that matter) because you just want heals per say, although they come in handy. What you want is the massive amount of buffs to your damage and support for your sustain. With that there is no need to be constantly micro managing everything else you have to do, and instead focus on seriously burning down whatever is in your face.

The argument that 3dds can do more damage unbuffed than two fully buffed dds fully supplied with power has also been kicked around a lot and there are plenty of stats posted with comparing logs in many discords about it. In reality it is highly dependent on the HM and the dds' builds. I have been in groups with dds who were wearing trial gear and still had really low deeps because they always rely on the healer to help them with sustain in those settings. A bit spoiled so to speak. Truth is rotation is everything and to some degree, you don't even want a 3dd/1tank composition with dds in trails sets in a dungeon in every case anyway. Selfish sets can sometimes go a lot farther in those situations.

LeonAkando · August 2021

It's most efficient to run a healer with good off damage. Run support sets. I like Symphony/SPC/Master Architect in my group personally.
1 Resto Staff
1 Destro Staff.
Make sure to slot all major DPS buffs and a damaging spammable on backbar. That provides the quick boss kills, plus the DPS don't need to build for self heals to survive certain bosses.

Treeshka · August 2021

Most likely the newest dungeons require some healing aspects but even though you are a healer you are expected to use buff sets and maybe even do some damage while providing brittle to the enemies.

Sephyr · August 2021

Soulshine wrote: »

SimonThesis wrote: »

Unfortunately 4 dps in trial sets and arena weapons can 4 dps almost any content excpet for a few HMs. I think pve content should be adjusted to make having a healer more essential. Unfortunately, passive damage is very low but burst damage is high in pve content so as long as you can rolldodge attacks you dont need a healer. I think they should increase passive damage sources in pve to make healers more vital every dungeon should have at least a minor heal check.

Generally speaking, by the time one has actually gotten even a few base game dungeons in, it's fairly obvious that staying out of stupid is essential for anyone in any dungeon in order to keep doing damage, let alone do anything else.

The thing is you don't bring a healer in vet DLCs hms (or anywhere, for that matter) because you just want heals per say, although they come in handy. What you want is the massive amount of buffs to your damage and support for your sustain. With that there is no need to be constantly micro managing everything else you have to do, and instead focus on seriously burning down whatever is in your face.

The argument that 3dds can do more damage unbuffed than two fully buffed dds fully supplied with power has also been kicked around a lot and there are plenty of stats posted with comparing logs in many discords about it. In reality it is highly dependent on the HM and the dds' builds. I have been in groups with dds who were wearing trial gear and still had really low deeps because they always rely on the healer to help them with sustain in those settings. A bit spoiled so to speak. Truth is rotation is everything and to some degree, you don't even want a 3dd/1tank composition with dds in trails sets in a dungeon in every case anyway. Selfish sets can sometimes go a lot farther in those situations.

I don't have a healing bubble popping addiction, I have no idea what you're talking about! 🤐

Please send another down the line. PLSTHXBAI<3

LiteEmUp · August 2021

is a combo of jorvulds + spc for a healer/dps hybrid still viable, or is jorvulds obsolete?? until getting olorime to replace jorvuld of course lol..

honglatongla · August 2021

Yes, most of the time.

code65536 · August 2021

It depends on the content.

Healers are required for the Hard Modes of Moongrave Fane, Stone Garden, and The Dread Cellar. They're nice to have for the Hard Modes for Frostvault and Maarselok. For other dungeons, you can get away with healerless group compositions.

That having been said, I almost always run 4-person content with a healer. While it may be faster to run with a 3DD setup, running with a healer is definitely easier. A healer can also put on some damage skills and do damage when appropriate.

Saieden · August 2021

Soulshine wrote: »

Speaking as one - yes. Some of the vet DLC hms can be done without one, but too many people say that and imply that "can be done" means "can be done by anyone" ---- that is hardly the case.

Can confirm. When I random vet with my healer, about 1 in 4 queues I need to slot more dps for the group to be able to able to clear. The 3D1T composition is built on the premise that all 3 dps can actually burn fast enough to not repeat (or skip) timed mechanics (thus needing to heal more) and end encounters before the tank runs out of resources.

Zyva · August 2021

I will agree with what the one guy said. Making a healer necessary for the high end groups to do a dungeon on hm will make it almost un clearable and certainly un puggable for most groups without a great deal of wiping and time.

The only dungeons that a healer makes things more comfortable to do a trifecta on for me are stone garden and moongrave. I still have done both with 3 dps, but the dps had to tweak their builds to be more survivable for the no death. Moongrave in particular, required a barrier rotation without a healer to survive the de-buff. If not worried about the achievement, it didnt matter. I've also done it with one dps slotting a strong burst heal, and otherwise a full dps rotation, which i suppose is called off healing/off dpsing, basically still pulling nearly as much damage.

A pug mooongrave or stone garden hm wont clear unless 2 or 3 of the 4 pugs are lucky enough to have experience in that dungeon, and of those, the tank is one of the roles. It's just the way it is. You can spend two hours in there and learn it of course, and might clear. but chances are the pugs will drop when they dont see their random dungeon clearing in 30 minutes. after arguing/blaming each other/all caps ranting/etc. Its why a lot of the experienced players dont even use the random queue, and certainly not for anything other than a random normal or their non dlc pledge, unless they already have an experienced group of three and only need one more pug dps to just fill it out and get an extra gear drop. One person can be carried.