TheEndBringer wrote: »I think doubling the effect is a little strong but not crazy.
Let's say I pick warrior. Iirc it's 389 damage with divines. So that would be 778 damage.
I essentially just got the same damage buff that I can get from New Moon (5 piece is 390 I think).
If I pick lover, that's a little under 5k with divines. So now I'm getting over 9k pen. That's stronger than Spriggans or Spinner's + Lover but not crazy.
So in a way it would be very similar to heartland conquerer.
WrathOfInnos wrote: »TheEndBringer wrote: »I think doubling the effect is a little strong but not crazy.
Let's say I pick warrior. Iirc it's 389 damage with divines. So that would be 778 damage.
I essentially just got the same damage buff that I can get from New Moon (5 piece is 390 I think).
If I pick lover, that's a little under 5k with divines. So now I'm getting over 9k pen. That's stronger than Spriggans or Spinner's + Lover but not crazy.
So in a way it would be very similar to heartland conquerer.
That comparison only considers the 5pc bonus. The 5pc on TBS is fine, but the 2-4pc are weak.
- (2) 1206 Health
- (3) 1096 Stamina
- (4) 1096 Magicka
Yes, the 389 Weapon Damage from Warrior with Divines is close to the 401 Weapon Damage from New Moon Acolyte’s 5pc, but NMA also has:
- (2) 3% crit chance
- (3) 129 weapon/spell dmg
- (4) 1487 penetration
RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »Another suggestion they could go with:
2p: Increase the effect of your active mundus stone by X%
3p: Increase the effect of your active mundus stone by X%
4p: Increase the effect of your active mundus stone by X%
5p: You can have two Mundus Stone boons at the same time.
This would make the set more versatile, because the 2-4 piece would then be more tailored to a players role compared to flat stats on the 2-4 piece.
ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »TBS doesn't need a rework. As said in the OP, it only requires a slight QOL change that you can slot it on the frontbar.
The first three bonuses changing to Max Magicka and Max Stamina would only give marginal benefits (~3% dps increase).
In the link below you can see that it is still a very good set, being on par with Diamond's Victory and Heartland Conqueror.
https://imgur.com/a/bzathBx
(For some reason Imgur decided to rearrange the images )
Edit: To clarify, those parses were done on the PTS.
3% is 3k dps in this situation, which in trials would translate to even less.WrathOfInnos wrote: »I disagree. 3% DPS difference is massive when we’re comparing sets that contribute at most 10% DPS total.
You still have to factor in inconvenience. TBS/Heartland/Diamond's are crafted sets, while Catalyst is a BoP set that needs to be farmed and depending on peoples luck, it can take some time to farm it. Not to mention only one person should wear catalyst, which makes it "not possible" to wear for other people in a trial. And on top of that, Catalyst is only really good with single target fights, or fights like CR+x where the whole group switches targets at the same time, as it's relatively hard to keep an 80%+ uptime of all three debuffs on 2-3 enemies at the same time. You're also not considering that using Mother's Sorrow on a frontbar gives a big dps loss (like Medusa) when you're bar swapping to backbar because you're loosing a ton of crit. All in all, on paper, it might be a dps loss running TBS, but in real-world situations (and parses in some cases) it is not the case as you're not parsing with your frontbar alone.WrathOfInnos wrote: »I can confirm that TBS with Shadow is 2.5-3% DPS loss compared to Julianos, or 3.5-4% DPS loss compared to Mother’s Sorrow. You’d be better off running Elemental Catalyst on a solo build (only 15% crit damage instead of 18%, but gives Spell Crit + Max Mag where TBS has Max Health + Max Stamina).
I welcome you to go and do 100 parses for every situation (set) to have a large enough sample size. Regarding sorcerer class, Crystal Fragment proc rng damage is not that off, under 10 casts is a negligible difference in dps. It is the hardest hitting ability in the game, but you still have to take into account that it still uses a GCD, relies heavily on crit and relies on actually getting a proc. Your argument that sorc relies on RNG crit is not true at all, well to an extent. It relies on rng crit as every other class does.WrathOfInnos wrote: »Comparisons using Sorc parses and low sample sizes are not going to give accurate results. Sorc has the most variance of all classes because they have RNG in crit and RNG in frag procs. Your 100k TBS for example had 44 frag procs, while the 100k DV had only 37. With equal luck you’ll see DV pull ahead by a few thousand.
Nobody uses those combinations, that's true, but not because "...not enough crit", which Bahsei + DV would still suffer from, but because outside of a couple of trial fights, there isn't really a place for Siroria. Additionally, Siroria was used as a base set in here as it can be used with all three sets, while Bahsei cannot be used with TBS, as you would lose Bahsei while bar swapping. Also testing with Bahsei is harder as it requires much better sustain management, especially on the most resource-hungry class out thereWrathOfInnos wrote: »It also didn’t take into account set combinations. Nobody uses DV with Siroria, that just gives too much Spell Damage and not enough crit. DV shines as a front bar set, where you correctly pointed out that TBS cannot be used, but Siroria is already a front bar set. Try comparing Bahsei + DV with Bahsei + TBS and the difference will be obvious.
ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »3% is 3k dps in this situation, which in trials would translate to even less.WrathOfInnos wrote: »I disagree. 3% DPS difference is massive when we’re comparing sets that contribute at most 10% DPS total.You still have to factor in inconvenience. TBS/Heartland/Diamond's are crafted sets, while Catalyst is a BoP set that needs to be farmed and depending on peoples luck, it can take some time to farm it. Not to mention only one person should wear catalyst, which makes it "not possible" to wear for other people in a trial. And on top of that, Catalyst is only really good with single target fights, or fights like CR+x where the whole group switches targets at the same time, as it's relatively hard to keep an 80%+ uptime of all three debuffs on 2-3 enemies at the same time. You're also not considering that using Mother's Sorrow on a frontbar gives a big dps loss (like Medusa) when you're bar swapping to backbar because you're loosing a ton of crit. All in all, on paper, it might be a dps loss running TBS, but in real-world situations (and parses in some cases) it is not the case as you're not parsing with your frontbar alone.WrathOfInnos wrote: »I can confirm that TBS with Shadow is 2.5-3% DPS loss compared to Julianos, or 3.5-4% DPS loss compared to Mother’s Sorrow. You’d be better off running Elemental Catalyst on a solo build (only 15% crit damage instead of 18%, but gives Spell Crit + Max Mag where TBS has Max Health + Max Stamina).I welcome you to go and do 100 parses for every situation (set) to have a large enough sample size. Regarding sorcerer class, Crystal Fragment proc rng damage is not that off, under 10 casts is a negligible difference in dps. It is the hardest hitting ability in the game, but you still have to take into account that it still uses a GCD, relies heavily on crit and relies on actually getting a proc. Your argument that sorc relies on RNG crit is not true at all, well to an extent. It relies on rng crit as every other class does.WrathOfInnos wrote: »Comparisons using Sorc parses and low sample sizes are not going to give accurate results. Sorc has the most variance of all classes because they have RNG in crit and RNG in frag procs. Your 100k TBS for example had 44 frag procs, while the 100k DV had only 37. With equal luck you’ll see DV pull ahead by a few thousand.
On top of that, I've done about 30 parses altogether on all three sets tonight, the pictures I provided are the 95 percentile parses.Nobody uses those combinations, that's true, but not because "...not enough crit", which Bahsei + DV would still suffer from, but because outside of a couple of trial fights, there isn't really a place for Siroria. Additionally, Siroria was used as a base set in here as it can be used with all three sets, while Bahsei cannot be used with TBS, as you would lose Bahsei while bar swapping. Also testing with Bahsei is harder as it requires much better sustain management, especially on the most resource-hungry class out thereWrathOfInnos wrote: »It also didn’t take into account set combinations. Nobody uses DV with Siroria, that just gives too much Spell Damage and not enough crit. DV shines as a front bar set, where you correctly pointed out that TBS cannot be used, but Siroria is already a front bar set. Try comparing Bahsei + DV with Bahsei + TBS and the difference will be obvious.
Also, you shouldn't rely that much on crit. Ask yourself why the best parses are done with Bahsei and Siroria and not something else. Crit was incrementally tuned down to the point that raw damage starts to take president. Short flights, like trash fights and normal difficulty content still can be run with crit stacking, but outside of that, in long fights with bosses that have 20M+ HP crit starts to lose its shine. You still want to have crit, but not stacking crit as it loses its impact the more you stack it.
WrathOfInnos wrote: »Are you seriously arguing that TBS is a good damage set?
ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »Are you seriously arguing that TBS is a good damage set?
A 100k parse is proving it is a good damage set still :shrug:
TheEndBringer wrote: »So in a way it would be very similar to heartland conquerer.
ResidentContrarian wrote: »No.
Because of the way how ZOS' state machine, or whatever you want to call how they manage player states in the game works, the set would eventually become bugged and grant the bonus without ever having to have 5 pieces of it.
It was already exploited like this in the past, no to any changes that open the door for it again.
Hard no for me on TBS working the way OP wants.
EDit:TheEndBringer wrote: »So in a way it would be very similar to heartland conquerer.
And it would also stack with it and become a balance problem down the line.
TheEndBringer wrote: »ResidentContrarian wrote: »No.
Because of the way how ZOS' state machine, or whatever you want to call how they manage player states in the game works, the set would eventually become bugged and grant the bonus without ever having to have 5 pieces of it.
It was already exploited like this in the past, no to any changes that open the door for it again.
Hard no for me on TBS working the way OP wants.
EDit:TheEndBringer wrote: »So in a way it would be very similar to heartland conquerer.
And it would also stack with it and become a balance problem down the line.
So you think running twice born and heartland would be an issue? The only damage you're getting from your set is 129 on gold heartland.
You're also talking about a setup that would require at least one crafted jewelry (that's assuming no monster helm). That in and of itself would stop most players from running both.
Let's say you run warrior. Your TBS is now new moon.
Let's say you run lover. Your TBS is Spriggans/spinners.
Let's say you run mage. Your TBS is now Crafty.
So you run heartland with NMA or Spriggans or crafty. What's the difference?
I don't mind using TBS on the body to avoid the loss of the second mundus...
ResidentContrarian wrote: »TheEndBringer wrote: »ResidentContrarian wrote: »No.
Because of the way how ZOS' state machine, or whatever you want to call how they manage player states in the game works, the set would eventually become bugged and grant the bonus without ever having to have 5 pieces of it.
It was already exploited like this in the past, no to any changes that open the door for it again.
Hard no for me on TBS working the way OP wants.
EDit:TheEndBringer wrote: »So in a way it would be very similar to heartland conquerer.
And it would also stack with it and become a balance problem down the line.
So you think running twice born and heartland would be an issue? The only damage you're getting from your set is 129 on gold heartland.
You're also talking about a setup that would require at least one crafted jewelry (that's assuming no monster helm). That in and of itself would stop most players from running both.
Let's say you run warrior. Your TBS is now new moon.
Let's say you run lover. Your TBS is Spriggans/spinners.
Let's say you run mage. Your TBS is now Crafty.
So you run heartland with NMA or Spriggans or crafty. What's the difference?
No, it's not. If it were, why exactly are you advocating for the change...?
We both know the answer.
ResidentContrarian wrote: »TheEndBringer wrote: »ResidentContrarian wrote: »No.
Because of the way how ZOS' state machine, or whatever you want to call how they manage player states in the game works, the set would eventually become bugged and grant the bonus without ever having to have 5 pieces of it.
It was already exploited like this in the past, no to any changes that open the door for it again.
Hard no for me on TBS working the way OP wants.
EDit:TheEndBringer wrote: »So in a way it would be very similar to heartland conquerer.
And it would also stack with it and become a balance problem down the line.
So you think running twice born and heartland would be an issue? The only damage you're getting from your set is 129 on gold heartland.
You're also talking about a setup that would require at least one crafted jewelry (that's assuming no monster helm). That in and of itself would stop most players from running both.
Let's say you run warrior. Your TBS is now new moon.
Let's say you run lover. Your TBS is Spriggans/spinners.
Let's say you run mage. Your TBS is now Crafty.
So you run heartland with NMA or Spriggans or crafty. What's the difference?
No, it's not. If it were, why exactly are you advocating for the change...?
We both know the answer.
TheEndBringer wrote: »ResidentContrarian wrote: »TheEndBringer wrote: »ResidentContrarian wrote: »No.
Because of the way how ZOS' state machine, or whatever you want to call how they manage player states in the game works, the set would eventually become bugged and grant the bonus without ever having to have 5 pieces of it.
It was already exploited like this in the past, no to any changes that open the door for it again.
Hard no for me on TBS working the way OP wants.
EDit:TheEndBringer wrote: »So in a way it would be very similar to heartland conquerer.
And it would also stack with it and become a balance problem down the line.
So you think running twice born and heartland would be an issue? The only damage you're getting from your set is 129 on gold heartland.
You're also talking about a setup that would require at least one crafted jewelry (that's assuming no monster helm). That in and of itself would stop most players from running both.
Let's say you run warrior. Your TBS is now new moon.
Let's say you run lover. Your TBS is Spriggans/spinners.
Let's say you run mage. Your TBS is now Crafty.
So you run heartland with NMA or Spriggans or crafty. What's the difference?
No, it's not. If it were, why exactly are you advocating for the change...?
We both know the answer.
I'm not actually. I wouldn't run it. All I said was it would be strong but not over powered and I outlined comparisons to other sets.